What made japan a superior warrior nation?

What made japan a superior warrior nation?


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Prozac. Samurai descendants on Prozac say "Once we were Worriers..."

God I wish it was April 1st...

Barry Thomas

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Olson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 12:46 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?


What made japan a superior warrior nation?
.


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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Chris Olson wrote:

>
> What made japan a superior warrior nation?
>
>
>

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Because of their devotion to the code of the samurai (Bushido).

Chris,

That is a difficult question because Japan was isolated from the outside world for such a long period of time. There is really not much to compare outside of a few brief conflicts including the Mongol invasions (which aren't an accurate comparison really) and Hideyoshi's foray in Korea. I guess you could also mention a few conflicts with pirates if you wanted to be picky. Any comparison to the warriors of Japan and other groups would make for an excellent thesis though.

If I may throw out some ideas though... Their unique blend of religious/social beliefs, sword making/use, years of armed conflict and civil wars (practice, you might say), a "Spartan-like" mentality regarding death (in some cases). Of course, we all know what happened when these great warriors met up with a more technologically advanced force in the mid-late 1800's.

An alternative question might be... What made Japan a successful warrior nation? It did survive for a long period of time, and the Tokugawa regime lasted "peacefully" for more than 250 years.

Just a few thoughts... An interesting question.

Jonathan P. Ellgen

Chris Olson <thuga11887@...> wrote: What made japan a superior warrior nation?

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Although all of us are here because of varying degrees of interest
in samurai I think that your question is a little subjective. It
depends on in what way you consider them superior, and when compared
to who? Many of us are familiar with the whole samurai v. knight
debate. I would like to make a suggestion though. I suggest that you
look at samurai from within the proper historical and cultural
context rather than trying to compare them to others. There is
always someone that will top who ever you think is the best in some
form. Plus, a lot of what lead to the idea of the samurai being so
much greater than say their western couterparts was very very
heavily influenced by 19th century romaticism. Just for an example.
A lot of people talk about how dedicated and loyal samurai were.
That they would rather die then give off even the slightest
impression of slacking in their duties or rebellion. Once again this
was influence by 19th romanticizing of the samurai. For much of
their history most samurai were oppurtunists. They fought for their
lord as long as it was in their best interests to do so, or out of
fear of what would happen if they did not. During the Sengoku period
there was not the horrible stigma if a samurai changed sides that
would later be applied during peace time. It was not uncommon for
warriors who were defeated in battle to be offered employment by the
victor. This is not something horrible for the time. It is simply
the way most,if not all, known feudal societies.which were
inherantly fractured, functioned.

In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior nation.



I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that preferred death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of the Japanese in dealing with the rest of the world.



They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their physical isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained them. But these enabling factors did not produce a warrior class superior to any other.



There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and the culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as a national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to similarities, not superiorities.

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Olson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?


What made japan a superior warrior nation?

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I agree with Tom Morford, there is no reason to believe that the nation of
Japan was a superior warrior society, I think legends of ninja and such are
the only reason westerners have this idea... if you wanted to talk martial
arts I wouldn't say that they had the greatest fighting styles, even though
I prefer kendo, it really depends on the individual who is enlightened in
martial skills, not necessarily a nation..

**this is the part when martial artists in this group pounce on me**

On Dec 1, 2007 5:35 AM, Tom Morford <tmorford@...> wrote:

> In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior nation.
>
> I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that preferred
> death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of the Japanese in
> dealing with the rest of the world.
>
> They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their physical
> isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained them. But these
> enabling factors did not produce a warrior class superior to any other.
>
> There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and the
> culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as a
> national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to
> similarities, not superiorities.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Olson
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?
>
> What made japan a superior warrior nation?
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Be a better pen pal.
> Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
> http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
I find myself in this big city prison, that's risen, from the vision of
mankind; Designed to keep me, discreetly, neatly in the corner.....

Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still
plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jacob,

You wrote

"it really depends on the individual who is enlightened in

>martial skills, not necessarily a nation..
>
>**this is the part when martial artists in this group pounce on me**"

Why would anybody pounce on that? It shows a true understanding of martial
arts rather than an ego that "mine" is best.

Back to history to prevent further derailment. People today glorify the
samurai the same way post warring era samurai glorified their predecessors.
War is a dirty business in which a few shine and most rise to the occaision.
It was true for the samurai, for knights of Europe, tribesmen in Africa, and
any other warring group in history.

Michael

>From: "Jacob S." <DerangedCountrySideCowboyRonin@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?
>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:28:02 -0800
>
>I agree with Tom Morford, there is no reason to believe that the nation of
>Japan was a superior warrior society, I think legends of ninja and such are
>the only reason westerners have this idea... if you wanted to talk martial
>arts I wouldn't say that they had the greatest fighting styles, even though
>I prefer kendo, it really depends on the individual who is enlightened in
>martial skills, not necessarily a nation..
>
>**this is the part when martial artists in this group pounce on me**
>
>On Dec 1, 2007 5:35 AM, Tom Morford <tmorford@...> wrote:
>
> > In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior
>nation.
> >
> > I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that preferred
> > death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of the
>Japanese in
> > dealing with the rest of the world.
> >
> > They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their physical
> > isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained them. But
>these
> > enabling factors did not produce a warrior class superior to any other.
> >
> > There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and the
> > culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as a
> > national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to
> > similarities, not superiorities.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Chris Olson
> > To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM
> > Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?
> >
> > What made japan a superior warrior nation?
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > Be a better pen pal.
> > Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
> > http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>--
>I find myself in this big city prison, that's risen, from the vision of
>mankind; Designed to keep me, discreetly, neatly in the corner.....
>
>Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still
>plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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its just the food...trust me!the ninja etc...feudal system..really..?what about terrain,climate etc?and kendo?its a sport...thats what really have some weight....nääh...its just the kami..and still they came worse than a americans...look at them now..say your preys fella..!


To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: DerangedCountrySideCowboyRonin@...: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:28:02 -0800Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?




I agree with Tom Morford, there is no reason to believe that the nation ofJapan was a superior warrior society, I think legends of ninja and such arethe only reason westerners have this idea... if you wanted to talk martialarts I wouldn't say that they had the greatest fighting styles, even thoughI prefer kendo, it really depends on the individual who is enlightened inmartial skills, not necessarily a nation..**this is the part when martial artists in this group pounce on me**On Dec 1, 2007 5:35 AM, Tom Morford <tmorford@...> wrote:> In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior nation.>> I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that preferred> death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of the Japanese in> dealing with the rest of the world.>> They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their physical> isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained them. But these> enabling factors did not produce a warrior class superior to any other.>> There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and the> culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as a> national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to> similarities, not superiorities.>>> ----- Original Message -----> From: Chris Olson> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM> Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?>> What made japan a superior warrior nation?>> __________________________________________________________> Be a better pen pal.> Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.> http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>> >-- I find myself in this big city prison, that's risen, from the vision ofmankind; Designed to keep me, discreetly, neatly in the corner.....Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would stillplant my apple tree. -Martin Luther[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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maybe you should read J.krhisnamurtis:freedom from the known...that helps whith clouds in mind.just a hint.so you dont have to ask these kind of questions....it helps..really!


To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.comFrom: shdwstel@...: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 04:58:49 +0700Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?




Jacob,You wrote"it really depends on the individual who is enlightened in>martial skills, not necessarily a nation..>>**this is the part when martial artists in this group pounce on me**"Why would anybody pounce on that? It shows a true understanding of martial arts rather than an ego that "mine" is best.Back to history to prevent further derailment. People today glorify the samurai the same way post warring era samurai glorified their predecessors. War is a dirty business in which a few shine and most rise to the occaision. It was true for the samurai, for knights of Europe, tribesmen in Africa, and any other warring group in history.Michael>From: "Jacob S." <DerangedCountrySideCowboyRonin@...>>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?>Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 12:28:02 -0800>>I agree with Tom Morford, there is no reason to believe that the nation of>Japan was a superior warrior society, I think legends of ninja and such are>the only reason westerners have this idea... if you wanted to talk martial>arts I wouldn't say that they had the greatest fighting styles, even though>I prefer kendo, it really depends on the individual who is enlightened in>martial skills, not necessarily a nation..>>**this is the part when martial artists in this group pounce on me**>>On Dec 1, 2007 5:35 AM, Tom Morford <tmorford@...> wrote:>> > In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior >nation.> >> > I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that preferred> > death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of the >Japanese in> > dealing with the rest of the world.> >> > They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their physical> > isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained them. But >these> > enabling factors did not produce a warrior class superior to any other.> >> > There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and the> > culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as a> > national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to> > similarities, not superiorities.> >> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: Chris Olson> > To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM> > Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?> >> > What made japan a superior warrior nation?> >> > __________________________________________________________> > Be a better pen pal.> > Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.> > http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]> >> >> >>>>>-->I find myself in this big city prison, that's risen, from the vision of>mankind; Designed to keep me, discreetly, neatly in the corner.....>>Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still>plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther>>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]>__________________________________________________________FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris, I am not meaning to rain on your parade with my evaluation of your question.



But I am afraid that, "What made japan a superior warrior nation?" or even Jonathan's "What made Japan a successful warrior nation?", both are subjective.



Were the Japanese warriors "superior" and was Japan a "successful warrior nation"?



I just think that the question could be aimed more to encourage discovery rather than controversy.



My suggested alternative topic would be:



"What created the Samurai warrior class in Japan."



What were the major historical points of change in the development the character this institution of ancient Japanese culture.



Who, what, where, when, and how did this all happen?

----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Morford
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?


In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior nation.

I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that preferred death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of the Japanese in dealing with the rest of the world.

They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their physical isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained them. But these enabling factors did not produce a warrior class superior to any other.

There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and the culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as a national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to similarities, not superiorities.

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Olson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?

What made japan a superior warrior nation?

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To Chris, in that light, I think the Heien period is an essential
period to see how the Samurai came to be in a political sense--this of
course wasn't where their martial arts were developed, but I think it
is still an important period to see the origins of the class...

Also, for the origins of other such things like their martial arts, I
can't recall any sources or periods to look into other than to look at
the origins of how the traditional Japanese sword was developed. which
would shed light on their preferred method of war; which was to use
the bow. Either way, I don't know full well what I'm talking about,
maybe someone can take over: Their old martial art was the way of the
horse and the bow, but I was under the impression that horses were not
present in Japan until after the Mongol invasion... This just hit me.

**ended up with questions rather than answers**

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Morford" wrote:
>
> Chris, I am not meaning to rain on your parade with my evaluation of
your question.
>
>
>
> But I am afraid that, "What made japan a superior warrior nation?"
or even Jonathan's "What made Japan a successful warrior nation?",
both are subjective.
>
>
>
> Were the Japanese warriors "superior" and was Japan a "successful
warrior nation"?
>
>
>
> I just think that the question could be aimed more to encourage
discovery rather than controversy.
>
>
>
> My suggested alternative topic would be:
>
>
>
> "What created the Samurai warrior class in Japan."
>
>
>
> What were the major historical points of change in the development
the character this institution of ancient Japanese culture.
>
>
>
> Who, what, where, when, and how did this all happen?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Morford
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior
nation?
>
>
> In all honesty, I don't think that they were a superior warrior
nation.
>
> I believe that the warrior ethic of unquestioned loyalty that
preferred death to failure was, however noble sounding, the undoing of
the Japanese in dealing with the rest of the world.
>
> They had long lived grand feudal societies because of their
physical isolation, and brutal swift justice systems that maintained
them. But these enabling factors did not produce a warrior class
superior to any other.
>
> There are many other reasons to study and admire the Samurai, and
the culture that created them. But comparing them as individuals or as
a national body, to those of any other nation, will only bring you to
similarities, not superiorities.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chris Olson
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 7:46 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] What made japan a superior warrior nation?
>
> What made japan a superior warrior nation?
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Be a better pen pal.
> Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.
http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>