mon identification

Hello!

I have a Wakizashi with edo period fittings, and there are two mon on
these fittings. One is the kiri mon in silver, and the other neither
I, nor anyone else, has been able to identify.

I'm very interested in finding out what it could be, as it will
possibly shed some light on who owned this beautiful sword.

The mon is here:

http://www.geocities.com/zykr/mon.jpg

The followup question is in a situation like this, where a piece of
property or clothing is marked with two mon, what does this imply?

Is the first a family crest, and the second perhaps one for an individual?

Thanks!

Hi Zykr!!

Hard ones first eh!! The Mon is catagorised as "Meyui" (=Eyes). I must
admit to not having seen a 3x3 diamond in a circle before. However, there
are similar mons 3x2 from the "Horio" family, 2x2 from the "Tsuchihashi"
family or So [line over o] family and a 3x4 from the "Muto[line over o],
Nose or Shoni" families. Best I can do at present.

Rod Johnson

"zykr" wrote: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 3:35 PM

> Hello!
>
> I have a Wakizashi with edo period fittings, and there are two mon on
> these fittings. One is the kiri mon in silver, and the other neither
> I, nor anyone else, has been able to identify.
>
> I'm very interested in finding out what it could be, as it will
> possibly shed some light on who owned this beautiful sword.
>
> The mon is here:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/zykr/mon.jpg
>

Meyui represents a style of dying, a pattern left on cloth, popular in the
nara period and revived in the Edo period. This mon and it's variations are
usually seen as a block of four, or sixteen. My reference gives like 70
families that used it or a variation.
These mon questions come up on the sword forums often; I believe it was
John Yumoto who said that to identify a family from mon you needed three
mon. The mon of the lord and or the main house of the family, the family mon
or variation which represented the particular branch and the mon of the
wifes family. Thus we can see Satsuma Koshirae with the cross in circle mon,
kiri mon and Aoi mon all in one. As a daughter of the Daimyo was adopted to
a noble family in Kyoto picked up the Kiri and then was wed to the Tokugawa
picking up the Aoi mon and thus her sons and his cousins back in Satsuma
could sport all three.
And I would point out once we get into the Meiji period no rules were
followed and any mon might be used by any family. In the end I think it is
near impossible to identify a family by mon without some other evidence.

Tom

Tom, Shogun.uk, thanks for your help!

> My reference gives like 70
> families that used it or a variation.

I have seen references to the other variations before, but never
this one. I'm hoping in that it is unusual, it would be easier to
narrow down.

> could sport all three.
> And I would point out once we get into the Meiji period no

rules were

> followed and any mon might be used by any family. In the end I

think it is

> near impossible to identify a family by mon without some other

evidence.

The koshirae here do date to the 1700s though, so hopefully that
would eliminate the Meiji stuff.

And then 2/3 would hopefully narrow it down to a set of choices...

Thank you both for your help!

Thanks for your observations which were much appreciated. I don't quite know
what other information I could supply that would help.
Regards,
Cliff B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "zykr" <zykr@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 4:21 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: mon identification


> Tom, Shogun.uk, thanks for your help!
>
> > My reference gives like 70
> > families that used it or a variation.
>
> I have seen references to the other variations before, but never
> this one. I'm hoping in that it is unusual, it would be easier to
> narrow down.
>
> > could sport all three.
> > And I would point out once we get into the Meiji period no
> rules were
> > followed and any mon might be used by any family. In the end I
> think it is
> > near impossible to identify a family by mon without some other
> evidence.
>
> The koshirae here do date to the 1700s though, so hopefully that
> would eliminate the Meiji stuff.
>
> And then 2/3 would hopefully narrow it down to a set of choices...
>
> Thank you both for your help!
>
>
>
>
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>

Clifford wrote:

> Thanks for your observations which were much appreciated. I don't quite know
> what other information I could supply that would help.
>

Alittle slow on the response but if you have a history like when and where it
was bought/captured. What other elements are part of the koshirae, what is the
sword in the scabbard? surrender tags, polishers marks, sayagaki, saya makers
notes, etc...
All of which still make it a long shot.
Tom