New and question

Hello all, I'm new to the group. I have been looking through
somethings and have a question. I don't think this has been asked but
I could be wrong. What did the samurai do for entertainment? I
understand plays, writing, poetry, and training. However, these
contrast in some ways with the character of a warrior culture. Is
there anything else they would have used to be entertaied? Shogi, for
instance, or something of this nature would make sense. It is
essentially chess. However, the reason I ask is that an archaeologist
once said to understand a culture look at how they entertained
themselves.

> What did the samurai do for entertainment?

Wine, gambling and women were popular if they were allowed.

> I understand plays, writing, poetry, and training. However, these
> contrast in some ways with the character of a warrior culture.

Since Japan's samurai class was a social class with many different
levels, entertainment varied but associating poetry or writing with
being a sissy is a silly modern American thought. Lord Byron has a
statue in Greece erected to him not because he was a great poet but
because he helped liberate Greece from the Turks. Musashi wrote books
and was an excellent painter. Etc. Etc.

Jim Eckman

Well, Japanese men haven't changed much since then, uh? ;o)
cepo

On Nov 6, 2006, at 4:18 PM, James Eckman wrote:

> > What did the samurai do for entertainment?
>
> Wine, gambling and women were popular if they were allowed.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Since Japan's samurai class was a social class with many different
> levels, entertainment varied but associating poetry or writing

with

> being a sissy is a silly modern American thought. Lord Byron has a
> statue in Greece erected to him not because he was a great poet

but

> because he helped liberate Greece from the Turks. Musashi wrote

books

> and was an excellent painter. Etc. Etc.
>
> Jim Eckman
>

First, I don't remember saying it was sissy. I said it contrasted.
Second, I don't recall Julius Ceasar's "Ode to a Summer Morning" or
Richard the Lionheart's "Study of Roses." The point I'm making, it
shows duality but not all warrior cultures highly prize artistic
expression, especially among the warriors. Lastly, samurais were
warriors. Japan, of this time, was under a feudal system. In a
feudal society, warriors always maintain the highest rung in
society. With that said, I asked what was their choice of
entertainment. Within that, I mentioned training and the playing of
shogi. Those can't be the only examples of war like entertainment.
Unlike Rome, the samurai, in particualr before the edo period,
prepared for war constantly and were measured more by prowess in
combat. Yet, they didn't relish in bloodshed as much as their Roman
counterparts. There has to be some other examples. Drinking,
womanizing, and gambling: I don't view these as war like
entertainment because all males participate. I'm sure wealth
merchants endulged as much if not more then the samurai.

> On Nov 6, 2006, at 4:18 PM, James Eckman wrote:
>> > What did the samurai do for entertainment?
>> Wine, gambling and women were popular if they were allowed.

> Posted by: "cepo"
> Well, Japanese men haven't changed much since then, uh? ;o)

The word Japanese is not required in this sentence ;)

Jim

> 1a.
> Posted by: "Tom"
> First, I don't remember saying it was sissy. I said it contrasted.

In other words, arts = non-warrior, like I said a Western hangup.

> Second, I don't recall Julius Ceasar's "Ode to a Summer Morning" or

The Romans as a culture did not write literature, they wrote histories.
Have you read his 'Gallic Wars'?

> Richard the Lionheart's "Study of Roses."

I don't know if Richard had any artistic accomplishments though there
were famous poets of the period who were knights.

> The point I'm making, it shows duality but not all warrior cultures highly prize artistic
> expression, especially among the warriors.

Does being a warrior mean you cannot appreciate or perform art? Or as I
think is it more of an overall cultural bias that permeates all parts of
a society?

> With that said, I asked what was their choice of
> entertainment.

I think I gave answers to that, most of them liked women, drinking and
sometimes gambling.

> Those can't be the only examples of war like entertainment.

There's also archery contests and dueling.

> Unlike Rome, the samurai, in particualr before the edo period,
> prepared for war constantly and were measured more by prowess in
> combat.

??? The Republican Romans trained far more than the Samurai ever did in
and frankly in a melee of 100 Romans versus 100 Samurai, I would bet
on the Romans. The Romans for a long time were a soldier culture which
basically kicked butt on most of the surrounding warrior cultures.

> Yet, they didn't relish in bloodshed as much as their Roman counterparts.

Nice sword looking Ichitaro, how does it cut? I don't know, here comes a
peasant, lets try it on him. Oh, another peasant rebellion, just kill
them all.

> There has to be some other examples. Drinking,
> womanizing, and gambling: I don't view these as war like
> entertainment because all males participate.

Mysteriously until the Edo period, war was a sport that all males could
participate in if they wanted to advance their class. Who's that monkey guy?

Jim Eckman

Doghunting.

>From: "Tom" <couchtr26@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: New and question
>Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2006 01:41:48 -0000
>
>
> > Since Japan's samurai class was a social class with many different
> > levels, entertainment varied but associating poetry or writing
>with
> > being a sissy is a silly modern American thought. Lord Byron has a
> > statue in Greece erected to him not because he was a great poet
>but
> > because he helped liberate Greece from the Turks. Musashi wrote
>books
> > and was an excellent painter. Etc. Etc.
> >
> > Jim Eckman
> >
>
>First, I don't remember saying it was sissy. I said it contrasted.
>Second, I don't recall Julius Ceasar's "Ode to a Summer Morning" or
>Richard the Lionheart's "Study of Roses." The point I'm making, it
>shows duality but not all warrior cultures highly prize artistic
>expression, especially among the warriors. Lastly, samurais were
>warriors. Japan, of this time, was under a feudal system. In a
>feudal society, warriors always maintain the highest rung in
>society. With that said, I asked what was their choice of
>entertainment. Within that, I mentioned training and the playing of
>shogi. Those can't be the only examples of war like entertainment.
>Unlike Rome, the samurai, in particualr before the edo period,
>prepared for war constantly and were measured more by prowess in
>combat. Yet, they didn't relish in bloodshed as much as their Roman
>counterparts. There has to be some other examples. Drinking,
>womanizing, and gambling: I don't view these as war like
>entertainment because all males participate. I'm sure wealth
>merchants endulged as much if not more then the samurai.
>
>
>
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>
>Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
>http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

>Lastly, samurais were warriors.

Not always. "Samurai" is a broad term that encompasses far too long a
time period to make a statement
like that. Even in the 16th century (which is the period I assume you
are referring too) not all samurai were
warriors. Samurai were social elites, and during the numerous wars of
the the century that often saw them
leading men on battlefields, but some samurai were far more useful as
administrators and would have rarely
wielded a bow or yari in combat.

>Unlike Rome, the samurai, in particular before the edo period, prepared

for war constantly and were

>measured more byprowess in combat.

While my knowledge of Roman history isn't great, I doubt that this is
true. During Rome's Golden Age their
legions were famously well trained and disciplined. And again, not all
samurai prepared for war constantly,
nor were they all necessarily particularly good at it.

>Yet, they didn't relish in bloodshed as much as their Roman

counterparts. There has to be some other

>examples. Drinking, womanizing, and gambling: I don't view these as war

like entertainment because

>all males participate. I'm sure wealth merchants endulged as much if

not more then the samurai.

The samurai were social elites. They drank, womanized, gambled, and all
the rest of those "base" activities.
Some practiced archery and swordsmanship, others wrote poetry, performed
plays, painted, went hawking,
and did whatever was expected of their social status.

-AngusH

_____________________________________________________________

This email (including any attachments to it) is confidential, legally privileged, subject to copyright and is sent for the personal attention of the intended recipient only. If you have received this email in error, please advise us immediately and delete it. You are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. Although we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, we cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the viruses in this email or attachments. We exclude any liability for the content of this email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided in this email or its attachments, unless that information is subsequently confirmed in writing. If this email contains an offer, that should be considered as an invitation to treat.
_____________________________________________________________

If this e-Mail contains marketing material and you do not wish to receive such material by e-Mail in future, please reply to this e-Mail and place the words "Remove My Details - Electronic Messages" in the Subject Header.

The Rabobank Group
Australia: 1800 025 484
New Zealand: 0800 500 933


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dancing?

Oda Nobunaga is said to have danced in front of his troops before the Battle of Okehazama, although Wikipedia atributes this to fictional sources and reciting a poem instead of actually dancing:
"Various fictional sources depict Nobunaga reciting a stanza from his favorite play, Atsumori, before the Battle of Okehazama and before his demise in Honnoji:"

Although it hardly classifies as "entertainment", exercise of intellect could also be included if only to deflect from the "constant warfare" theme. Again, the ruthless Nobunaga is an exemplar:
http://www2.aia.pref.aichi.jp/voice/no11/11_time_travelar.html

Barry Thomas.

----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Peters
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: New and question



Doghunting.
.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First of all: A very interesting question. Secondly: I'm not one of the
experts of this list, so don't take anything I write here too serious,
those things are just assumptions.
What about the game of 'go'? I think it is of Chinese originese, does it
in some way fit together with 'shogi'?
Just a thought, but I'd be grateful for a good answer, too.

Cheers
Thomas

Tom wrote:

>> Since Japan's samurai class was a social class with many different
>> levels, entertainment varied but associating poetry or writing with being a sissy is a silly modern American thought. Lord Byron has a
>> statue in Greece erected to him not because he was a great poet but because he helped liberate Greece from the Turks. Musashi wrote books and was an excellent painter. Etc. Etc.
>>
>> Jim Eckman
>
> First, I don't remember saying it was sissy. I said it contrasted.
> Second, I don't recall Julius Ceasar's "Ode to a Summer Morning" or
> Richard the Lionheart's "Study of Roses." The point I'm making, it shows duality but not all warrior cultures highly prize artistic expression, especially among the warriors. Lastly, samurais were warriors. Japan, of this time, was under a feudal system. In a feudal society, warriors always maintain the highest rung in society. With that said, I asked what was their choice of entertainment. Within that, I mentioned training and the playing of shogi. Those can't be the only examples of war like entertainment.
> Unlike Rome, the samurai, in particualr before the edo period,
> prepared for war constantly and were measured more by prowess in
> combat. Yet, they didn't relish in bloodshed as much as their Roman counterparts. There has to be some other examples. Drinking, womanizing, and gambling: I don't view these as war like entertainment because all males participate. I'm sure wealth merchants endulged as much if not more then the samurai.

___________________________________________________________
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Thomas" wrote:

>
> Dancing?
>
> Oda Nobunaga is said to have danced in front of his troops before

the Battle of Okehazama, although Wikipedia atributes this to
fictional sources and reciting a poem instead of actually dancing:

> "Various fictional sources depict Nobunaga reciting a stanza from

his favorite play, Atsumori, before the Battle of Okehazama and before
his demise in Honnoji:"

>
> Although it hardly classifies as "entertainment", exercise of

intellect could also be included if only to deflect from the "constant
warfare" theme. Again, the ruthless Nobunaga is an exemplar:

> http://www2.aia.pref.aichi.jp/voice/no11/11_time_travelar.html
>
> Barry Thomas.
>
>

Well, intoning a scene from "Atsumori" really doesn't fit any real
concept of "dancing", it's sort of "poetic drama", and he was probably
using the theme of atsumori to admit his mortality (lots of discussion
between a priest and dead warriors). And so it wouldn't have been for
"entertainment". Probably more of an "eat, drink, and be merry, for
tomorrow we all shall die" type statement, minus the drinking and
merryment.

I can play both Go and Shogi ...... there is absolutely nothing in common between the two, except that they are both "thinking" games. Totally different boards, pieces and rules.....and victory contitions

Shogi would be closer to Chinese Chess and Western Chess, if one were looking for relationships between games. All three have horses (with different movement rules), all three have rook-like pieces (the shogi piece only advancing forward until promoted), all three have pawns (all with different post-promotion rules), Chinese Chess and Shogi have no queen, all three games have (a) piece(s) that can move diagonally, ... one cool thing about shogi is that when you eat an opponents piece, you can then use it as your piece (with rules on how to place it on the board.)

Lee Shackelford

----- Original Message -----
From: Thomas Schmidt
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: New and question


First of all: A very interesting question. Secondly: I'm not one of the
experts of this list, so don't take anything I write here too serious,
those things are just assumptions.
What about the game of 'go'? I think it is of Chinese originese, does it
in some way fit together with 'shogi'?
Just a thought, but I'd be grateful for a good answer, too.

Cheers
Thomas

Tom wrote:
>> Since Japan's samurai class was a social class with many different
>> levels, entertainment varied but associating poetry or writing with being a sissy is a silly modern American thought. Lord Byron has a
>> statue in Greece erected to him not because he was a great poet but because he helped liberate Greece from the Turks. Musashi wrote books and was an excellent painter. Etc. Etc.
>>
>> Jim Eckman
>
> First, I don't remember saying it was sissy. I said it contrasted.
> Second, I don't recall Julius Ceasar's "Ode to a Summer Morning" or
> Richard the Lionheart's "Study of Roses." The point I'm making, it shows duality but not all warrior cultures highly prize artistic expression, especially among the warriors. Lastly, samurais were warriors. Japan, of this time, was under a feudal system. In a feudal society, warriors always maintain the highest rung in society. With that said, I asked what was their choice of entertainment. Within that, I mentioned training and the playing of shogi. Those can't be the only examples of war like entertainment.
> Unlike Rome, the samurai, in particualr before the edo period,
> prepared for war constantly and were measured more by prowess in
> combat. Yet, they didn't relish in bloodshed as much as their Roman counterparts. There has to be some other examples. Drinking, womanizing, and gambling: I don't view these as war like entertainment because all males participate. I'm sure wealth merchants endulged as much if not more then the samurai.



__________________________________________________________
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.0/524 - Release Date: 11/8/2006 1:40 PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kitsuno wrote:

> Probably more of an "eat, drink, and be merry, for
> tomorrow we all shall die" type statement, minus the
> drinking and merryment.

I'll bet there was ox-cart loads of drinking and merriment after Okehazama!!!

Barry Thomas.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Thomas" wrote:

>
> Kitsuno wrote:
>
> > Probably more of an "eat, drink, and be merry, for
> > tomorrow we all shall die" type statement, minus the
> > drinking and merryment.
>
> I'll bet there was ox-cart loads of drinking and merriment after

Okehazama!!!

>
> Barry Thomas.
>

I'm sure, although the events mentioned previously allegedly took
place before the battle - hence the lack of drinking and merryment.
Particularly because Nobunaga was the only one who knew they were
going to attack until the last minute. Everyone else was preparing for
a siege with would have eventually fallen.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Barry Thomas" wrote:

>
> Dancing?
>
> Oda Nobunaga is said to have danced in front of his troops before

the Battle of Okehazama, although Wikipedia atributes this to
fictional sources and reciting a poem instead of actually dancing:

> "Various fictional sources depict Nobunaga reciting a stanza from

his favorite play, Atsumori, before the Battle of Okehazama and before
his demise in Honnoji:"

>

Now I finally have a primary source for this to look at:

According to the "Shinchokoki" which I just picked up today ("Record
of Nobunga" or so) it says that he "sung" the Atsumori before the
battle. Although from what I've seen a better word would be "intone"
or "recite", you don't really sing Noh, at least not in the
traditional sense. According to the shinchokoki, he sung it after
hearing about the fall of two forts to the Imagawa (Washizu and
Marune) as they closed in on him - he apparently made the announcement
to fight after he finished the atsumori. The Shinchokoki is
considered a reliable account, as the author was a first hand witness,
born in 1527, so I would disagre with Wikipedia in that at least
Okehazama was probably true. No one survived Honnouji that I know of
who could validate things at that point though.