SAMURAI QUESTION

My daughter has a History Day question.

What would be considered a Samurai triumph??

Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LIn,
First of all I would ask, in which period?

However, there will never be a satisfactory answer to such a generic
question (please take no offense, I know it is not your question).
MY answer would be:

Triumph = stay alive
Tragedy = die.
Forget about the "honor" tirade.

But it is a very opinionated answer.

Cepo

On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Lin Bates wrote:

> My daughter has a History Day question.
>
> What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
>
> Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello.

I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
to different families of Samurai
ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?

Blue Skies,

David

On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:

> My daughter has a History Day question.
>
> What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
>
> Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

the triumph would be all victorious battles
the tragedy would be a dishonorable death or to be captured

Lin Bates <bateshotel2@...> wrote:
My daughter has a History Day question.

What would be considered a Samurai triumph??

Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??


---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

Tragedy for samurai as the failure in fulfilling one great demand,
especially when it comes to serve his master, (which leads to the fact that
the samurai will be ashamed and chooses to perform seppuku.)

Triumph would be to serve with great loyality his master.

Michael.

On 10/27/06, cepo <guchagucha@...> wrote:
>
> LIn,
> First of all I would ask, in which period?
>
> However, there will never be a satisfactory answer to such a generic
> question (please take no offense, I know it is not your question).
> MY answer would be:
>
> Triumph = stay alive
> Tragedy = die.
> Forget about the "honor" tirade.
>
> But it is a very opinionated answer.
>
> Cepo
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Lin Bates wrote:
>
> > My daughter has a History Day question.
> >
> > What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
> >
> > Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Most certainly opinionated, even a "generic" question is a question, one
Japanese master once said "To ask a question may be a moments shame, but not to
ask and remain ignorant is a life long shame."

As per the "Honor," a tragedy could be as much as the lost of ones retainer
as the Bushi (samurai) would turn into a Ronin (Master-less), in many cases
they would end their lives. While the simplicity of winning a great battle
with little or no loss of life is a great triumph.

Nakagawa Sukeie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I did not say that it was wrong to ask, I have just said it is
impossible to answer consistently.

First of all one needs to define "samurai".
Do we mean by that term "Japanese warriors" ?
Of which rank?
In which region?
In which period? 1180? 1330? 1600?
Or we consider a samurai a hereditary member of a social class of the
1700's who has never used a sword in his life?
One of the 47 Rônin? Toshiro Mifune...?

Besides that, how are we to define what was important for the
Japanese who have lived centuries ago?
I would have problems defining what "tragedy" and "triumph" are for
kids living NOW in the suburbs of MY town...
Go figure that out!!

Mind you, anyway: out of courtesy, I did answer...

Cepo

On Oct 26, 2006, at 5:34 PM, sekinakagawa@... wrote:
> Most certainly opinionated, even a "generic" question is a
> question, one
> Japanese master once said "To ask a question may be a moments
> shame, but not to
> ask and remain ignorant is a life long shame."

> As per the "Honor," a tragedy could be as much as the lost of ones
> retainer
> as the Bushi (samurai) would turn into a Ronin (Master-less), in
> many cases
> they would end their lives. While the simplicity of winning a great
> battle
> with little or no loss of life is a great triumph.
>
> Nakagawa Sukeie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can't wait for you to finish with household chores, so that I can
read how the ancestors of the samurai you have lived with would help
to define "tragedy" and "triumph".

Banzai!

Cepo

On Oct 26, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Do or do not, there is no try. wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
> to different families of Samurai
> ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
> from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
> Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
> eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?
>
> Blue Skies,
>
> David
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:
>
> > My daughter has a History Day question.
> >
> > What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
> >
> > Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

cepo wrote:

> First of all one needs to define "samurai".
> Do we mean by that term "Japanese warriors" ?
> Of which rank?
> In which region?
> In which period? 1180? 1330? 1600?
> Or we consider a samurai a hereditary member of a social class of the
> 1700's who has never used a sword in his life?
> One of the 47 Rônin? Toshiro Mifune...?
>
> Besides that, how are we to define what was important for the
> Japanese who have lived centuries ago?
> I would have problems defining what "tragedy" and "triumph" are for
> kids living NOW in the suburbs of MY town...
> Go figure that out!!
>
> Mind you, anyway: out of courtesy, I did answer...

And all things considered, I still think that your answer
was the most correct for the whole spectrum of questions you
just raised above.

For the samurai, like knights or soldiers or crusaders or
*anyone* who fights, winning is living, and losing is dying.

Let's put all the Edo mumbo jumbo behind us.


Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo

I greatly appreciate your thoughts.......................=)



cepo
iantel.net> To
Sent by: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
samuraihistory@ya cc
hoogroups.com
Subject
Re: [samuraihistory] SAMURAI
10/26/2006 03:48 QUESTION
PM


Please respond to
samuraihistory@ya
hoogroups.com






LIn,
First of all I would ask, in which period?

However, there will never be a satisfactory answer to such a generic
question (please take no offense, I know it is not your question).
MY answer would be:

Triumph = stay alive
Tragedy = die.
Forget about the "honor" tirade.

But it is a very opinionated answer.

Cepo

On Oct 26, 2006, at 10:21 AM, Lin Bates wrote:

> My daughter has a History Day question.
>
> What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
>
> Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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This is a History Day Project where she is supposed to base her project on
the triumph or tragedy of some person in history.

She chose the Samurai.

Thank goodness her homework is not due tomorrow, but she does have research
deadlines to meet. She is only in 7th grade and trying to get a grip on
the Samurai, their culture, and could be considered a triumph in their life
as well as a tragedy. Thus, any input would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






"Do or do not,
there is no try."
ac.com> samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent by: cc
samuraihistory@ya
hoogroups.com Subject
Re: [samuraihistory] SAMURAI
QUESTION
10/26/2006 05:19
PM


Please respond to
samuraihistory@ya
hoogroups.com






Hello.

I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
to different families of Samurai
ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?

Blue Skies,

David

On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:

> My daughter has a History Day question.
>
> What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
>
> Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




---
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---

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http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
Yahoo! Groups Links

Cepo-dono,
By any means, I did not mean to be disrespectful, and yes, when you put it
that way, you are mostly right, how ever, as the intended user is a child,
perhaps, things should be kept at simpler terms, sorry for any miss
understandings, and again, no disrespect intended.
(And when you have someone, as well know as A.J. Briant, on your conner, I
can't argue).

Respectfully,
Nakagawa Sukeie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can she chose one specific "samurai"?
That would make it much easier!
Japanese history is full of warriors who made it big, only to finish
in disgrace.
If they have it in your library, Ivan Morris' book "The Nobility of
Failure" could be a very handy text for this kind of presentation.
There are many short biographies, and with your help she should be ok.

Cepo

On Oct 27, 2006, at 12:03 PM, lbates@... wrote:

> This is a History Day Project where she is supposed to base her
> project on
> the triumph or tragedy of some person in history.
>
> She chose the Samurai.
>
> Thank goodness her homework is not due tomorrow, but she does have
> research
> deadlines to meet. She is only in 7th grade and trying to get a
> grip on
> the Samurai, their culture, and could be considered a triumph in
> their life
> as well as a tragedy. Thus, any input would be GREATLY appreciated.
>
> Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> "Do or do not,
> there is no try."
> > ac.com> samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent by: cc
> samuraihistory@ya
> hoogroups.com Subject
> Re: [samuraihistory] SAMURAI
> QUESTION
> 10/26/2006 05:19
> PM
>
>
> Please respond to
> samuraihistory@ya
> hoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Hello.
>
> I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
> to different families of Samurai
> ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
> from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
> Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
> eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?
>
> Blue Skies,
>
> David
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:
>
> > My daughter has a History Day question.
> >
> > What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
> >
> > Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think in the end I had put it in VERY simple terms!
No problems, anyway.

Cepo

On Oct 28, 2006, at 3:01 PM, sekinakagawa@... wrote:

> Cepo-dono,
> By any means, I did not mean to be disrespectful, and yes, when you
> put it
> that way, you are mostly right, how ever, as the intended user is a
> child,
> perhaps, things should be kept at simpler terms, sorry for any miss
> understandings, and again, no disrespect intended.
> (And when you have someone, as well know as A.J. Briant, on your
> conner, I
> can't argue).
>
> Respectfully,
> Nakagawa Sukeie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i didn't feel disrespected and i understood that it was intended for a child but i'm sorry if i sound disrespectful for this but the answer i gave was technically from a child



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm there too.....................can't wait for you to finish household
chores and respond.

In any event, yes, my daughter is looking at the triumph and tragedy of the
Samurai as a whole (if that is at all possible)

Thanks for any and all input......................=)






cepo
iantel.net> To
Sent by: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
samuraihistory@ya cc
hoogroups.com
Subject
Re: [samuraihistory] SAMURAI
10/27/2006 10:17 QUESTION
PM


Please respond to
samuraihistory@ya
hoogroups.com






I can't wait for you to finish with household chores, so that I can
read how the ancestors of the samurai you have lived with would help
to define "tragedy" and "triumph".

Banzai!

Cepo

On Oct 26, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Do or do not, there is no try. wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
> to different families of Samurai
> ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
> from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
> Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
> eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?
>
> Blue Skies,
>
> David
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:
>
> > My daughter has a History Day question.
> >
> > What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
> >
> > Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---

Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
Yahoo! Groups Links

If you want a dramatic impact, just go for the Forty-Seven Ronin story.
http://www.amazon.com/Forty-Seven-Ronin-Story-John-Allyn/dp/
0804801967/sr=1-1/qid=1162345012/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5534287-6848608?
ie=UTF8&s=books

That is a great tale, and the one responsible for most cliche' about
the samurai.
You can also find the movie on DVD, titled "Chushingura."
http://www.amazon.com/Chushingura-Koshiro-Matsumoto/dp/B000056NWP/
sr=1-1/qid=1162345059/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5534287-6848608?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Careful: DO NOT get this one...
http://www.amazon.com/47-Ronin-Parts-2/dp/6305339708/sr=1-2/
qid=1162345059/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5534287-6848608?ie=UTF8&s=dvd
It's from the forties and it would kill any kid watching it.

banzai
Cepo

On Oct 31, 2006, at 9:52 AM, lbates@... wrote:

> I'm there too.....................can't wait for you to finish
> household
> chores and respond.
>
> In any event, yes, my daughter is looking at the triumph and
> tragedy of the
> Samurai as a whole (if that is at all possible)
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

David, did you have a chance to check your resources??

Based on living in Japan with families of Samurai ancestors, what would be
deemed a triumph and a tragedy for the Samurai?





"Do or do not,
there is no try."
ac.com> samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent by: cc
samuraihistory@ya
hoogroups.com Subject
Re: [samuraihistory] SAMURAI
QUESTION
10/26/2006 05:19
PM


Please respond to
samuraihistory@ya
hoogroups.com






Hello.

I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
to different families of Samurai
ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?

Blue Skies,

David

On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:

> My daughter has a History Day question.
>
> What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
>
> Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---

Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
Yahoo! Groups Links

David, are you still living with the Japanese samurai's ancestors...?
At this point I imagine they own Himeji castle, and that had you to
clean it all before you can get back to us... :o)

cepo

On Nov 2, 2006, at 11:24 AM, lbates@... wrote:

> David, did you have a chance to check your resources??
>
> Based on living in Japan with families of Samurai ancestors, what
> would be
> deemed a triumph and a tragedy for the Samurai?
>
> "Do or do not,
> there is no try."
> > ac.com> samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent by: cc
> samuraihistory@ya
> hoogroups.com Subject
> Re: [samuraihistory] SAMURAI
> QUESTION
> 10/26/2006 05:19
> PM
>
>
> Please respond to
> samuraihistory@ya
> hoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Hello.
>
> I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
> to different families of Samurai
> ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
> from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
> Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
> eat dinner. What is her deadline for her homework?
>
> Blue Skies,
>
> David
>
> On Oct 26, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Lin Bates wrote:
>
> > My daughter has a History Day question.
> >
> > What would be considered a Samurai triumph??
> >
> > Would would be considered a Samurai tragedy??
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Oct 26, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Do or do not, there is no try. wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
> to different families of Samurai
> ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
> from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
> Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
> eat dinner.

BTW, since we're in the mood: a few months passed by, and I was
wondering if you're done with dinner...

cepo



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello ive just joined this club and im very intrested in samurai and i would like to find out more about samurai. Sorry for not e-mailing you sonner and by the way my names David what's yours. Kind regards

cepo <guchagucha@...> wrote: On Oct 26, 2006, at 2:19 PM, Do or do not, there is no try. wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I do not agree with the answer Cepo gave you. I lived in Japan with
> to different families of Samurai
> ancestors. I will reply to your question from what they told me and
> from an encyclopedia of Japan for English speakers I purchased in
> Japan. But, first I have to take care of a few household chores and
> eat dinner.

BTW, since we're in the mood: a few months passed by, and I was
wondering if you're done with dinner...

cepo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]