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#9123 [2006-10-21 17:18:41]

maker???

by brentbovee2

hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a question.
The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a matchlock
but did it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or anything like
that) thanks for your time!;)

[Next #9124]

#9124 [2006-10-21 21:42:01]

Re: maker???

by soshuju

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "brentbovee2"
wrote:
>
> hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a question.
> The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a matchlock
> but did it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or anything like
> that) thanks for your time!;)
>

Google; Tanegashima...

-t

[Previous #9123] [Next #9126]

#9126 [2006-10-21 21:47:22]

Re: maker???

by brentbovee2

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas C Helm"
wrote:
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "brentbovee2"
> wrote:
> >
> > hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a
question.
> > The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a
matchlock
> > but did it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or
anything like
> > that) thanks for your time!;)
> >
>
> Google; Tanegashima...
>
> -t
> i was wondering that for SO long and couldnt find ANY info on it.
thanks i owe ya one

[Previous #9124] [Next #9127]

#9127 [2006-10-21 21:52:37]

Re: maker???

by brentbovee2

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "brentbovee2"
wrote: for those of you wondering the same quastion here it the answer
provided by "T" (thanks again)In 1543, a Chinese ship carrying
Portuguese traders wrecked on the island of Tanegashima. The local
lord, Tanegashima Tokitaka, purchased two matchlocks from the
Portuguese, and ordered a local blacksmith to begin producing copies.
Soon these "Tanegashimajû" were in great demand among warring armies
all over Japan - both the original copies, and copies of the copies.
The Tanegashima-style matchlock would prove its worth definitively at
the Battle of Nagashino in 1575, when Oda Nobunaga's army of lowly
ashigaru used Tanegashima guns to devastate the Takeda samurai and
their fabled cavalry charge.




>

[Previous #9126] [Next #9128]

#9128 [2006-10-21 22:15:35]

Re: [samuraihistory] maker???

by jpellgen

The match-lock arquebus came from Portugal if I remember correctly. But I was under the assumption that Chinese handguns was scattered across Japan prior to the use of match-locks in the 1500's.

brentbovee2 <brentbovee2@...> wrote: hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a question.
The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a matchlock
but did it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or anything like
that) thanks for your time!;)






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9130 [2006-10-21 22:56:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] maker???

by cepooooo

FIREARMS, INTRODUCTION OF
Teppo Denrai
Firearms were introduced to Japan by Portuguese castaways on the
island of Tanegashima, off Kyushu, in 1543. The Japanese may have had
some basic knowledge of explosive weapons before the Portuguese
arrived, but the introduction of European firearms marked the
beginning of widespread use of such weapons.
Portuguese harquebuses greatly impressed the daimyo Tanegashima
Tokitaka, who ordered his craftsmen to duplicate them. Many Japanese
warlords hastened to master the techniques for producing them. As
early as 1549 Oda Nobunaga bought 500 matchlocks from gunsmiths in
Kunitomo in Omi (now Shiga Prefecture) and established a firearms
brigade in his army. In the 1550s Takeda Shingen, lord of the
province of Kai (now Yamanashi Prefecture), also organized a firearms
unit.
By the late 16th century firearms (teppo) had become the most
important offensive weapon; perhaps a third of the daimyo armies of
the 1570s carried guns. Oda Nobunaga used his firearms units to
advantage in the Battle of Anegawa in 1570 and in the Battle of
Nagashino in 1575. Toyotomi Hideyoshi also supplied his troops with
firearms, which he used during his campaigns against the Shimazu
family of Kyushu in 1586 and against the Later Hojo family in the
Odawara Campaign in 1590.
The spread of firearms helped to stimulate industrial and commercial
activities by creating an increased demand for muskets, ammunition,
and other matériel. Also, the popularization of firearms, together
with the establishment of an armed infantry, largely recruited from
the peasantry, promoted social mobility. (Kodansha)

I Hope it helps!
Cepo



On Oct 21, 2006, at 2:18 PM, brentbovee2 wrote:

> hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a question.
> The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a matchlock
> but did it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or anything like
> that) thanks for your time!;)
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9131 [2006-10-21 22:51:30]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: maker???

by gjgillespie

Dear Thomas c Helm
The matchlocks that the Japanese acquired from
Portugal was called in Japanese a Teppo. They soon
began making copies that where somewhat better then
what they received from the Spanish and Portugal. The
first user of Machlocks in mass was the Ikko-Ikki. as
for makers, well Look to the main spanish arsenals.
Gerard Gillespie.

--- Thomas C Helm <toryu@...> wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "brentbovee2"
>
> wrote:
> >
> > hello all... this is my first time here and i
> already have a question.
> > The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i
> think a matchlock
> > but did it have a brand name- maker? (like
> winchester or anything like
> > that) thanks for your time!;)
> >
>
> Google; Tanegashima...
>
> -t
>
>
>


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#9132 [2006-10-22 02:21:01]

R: [samuraihistory] maker???

by Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini

Yours is a very interesting question. I would say that there is more a
provenience rather then a brand-name, and
I've been puzzled by this for years and still are. My former Senpai, now
passed away, was making a study assuming that the
Portugueses made those arquebuses in Goa or possibly Macau. Cannons at that
time had a limied lifespan. Each 100 rounds (signed on the barrel, ten
rounds one nick) the cannon should have been re-melted and casted (we're
talking about bronze, not steel). Transporting such valuable items from
Indonesia to Portugal was expensive and dangerous so the portugueses
settled foundries in both the above mentioned colonies. Such foundries
provided even metal items for the chinese and indian market.
Now, is it belivable that the portugueses established arquebuses factories
there too ? Fabrizio was collecting evidences, but he passed away before to
finish the work and his widow lost the notes and bibliography. I've never
had neither the time nor the knowledge to re-create the files. Might be, if
he was right, that arquebuses equipping the men that shipwrecked on
Tanegashima were made in Goa or Macau, possibly in factories managed by
portuguese commercial company,
but I can't really consider this other then a possibility NOT supported by
evidences.
Sorry.


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
Per conto di brentbovee2
Inviato: domenica 22 ottobre 2006 2.19
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: [samuraihistory] maker???

hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a question.
The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a matchlock but did
it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or anything like
that) thanks for your time!;)





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Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
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[Previous #9131] [Next #9133]

#9133 [2006-10-22 03:14:34]

Re: R: [samuraihistory] maker???

by cepooooo

Carlo et al, ciao.
You got me very interested now...

One thing I don't get... What does Indonesia has to do with the
Portuguese and the cannons?
Please clarify if you can!

Thank You!!!
Cepo (Cesare)

PS=Are you sure those notes are lost for good...? damn...


On Oct 21, 2006, at 11:21 PM, Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini wrote:

> Yours is a very interesting question. I would say that there is more a
> provenience rather then a brand-name, and
> I've been puzzled by this for years and still are. My former
> Senpai, now
> passed away, was making a study assuming that the
> Portugueses made those arquebuses in Goa or possibly Macau. Cannons
> at that
> time had a limied lifespan. Each 100 rounds (signed on the barrel, ten
> rounds one nick) the cannon should have been re-melted and casted
> (we're
> talking about bronze, not steel). Transporting such valuable items
> from
> Indonesia to Portugal was expensive and dangerous so the portugueses
> settled foundries in both the above mentioned colonies. Such foundries
> provided even metal items for the chinese and indian market.
> Now, is it belivable that the portugueses established arquebuses
> factories
> there too ? Fabrizio was collecting evidences, but he passed away
> before to
> finish the work and his widow lost the notes and bibliography. I've
> never
> had neither the time nor the knowledge to re-create the files.
> Might be, if
> he was right, that arquebuses equipping the men that shipwrecked on
> Tanegashima were made in Goa or Macau, possibly in factories
> managed by
> portuguese commercial company,
> but I can't really consider this other then a possibility NOT
> supported by
> evidences.
> Sorry.
>
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
> Per conto di brentbovee2
> Inviato: domenica 22 ottobre 2006 2.19
> A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Oggetto: [samuraihistory] maker???
>
> hello all... this is my first time here and i already have a question.
> The style of gun that samurai first aquired was ,i think a
> matchlock but did
> it have a brand name- maker? (like winchester or anything like
> that) thanks for your time!;)
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com Samurai Archives
> store:
> http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
> Join the 2007 Samurai Fiction Contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#9134 [2006-10-22 23:03:32]

Re: maker???

by soshuju

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Gerard Gillespie <
gjgillespie@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Thomas c Helm...

Dear Girard-san
Go-henji domo arigato gozaimasu. I undesrtood the original question
to be a request for background rather than for vocabulary or "brand"
names. I felt that Tanegashima would lead the questioner to Teppo,
Tobidogu, Taiho and all the other firearms of Japan and hopefully
allow him (and others) to find it all out on his own.
From the many informative messages following mine it would seem
that my brevity was not misunderstood or without point.
at least I hope so...
-t

PS dear moderator can you check my settings? as these responses do
not seem to be coming thru to my mailbox - THNX

[Previous #9133] [Next #9177]

#9177 [2006-11-05 22:27:49]

Re: R: [samuraihistory] maker???

by couchtr26

I do not mean to intrude on this topic but am new to the
group. First, I understand that the Japanese matchlock is refered
to as a Teppo. However, matchlocks don't have brand names or
makers. There manufacturing predates mass production. It should
also be noted that they are of Tanegashima pattern. Matchlocks are
known by pattern names. English pattern or French pattern, this is
just how they are named and identified.

The main reason I wanted to post, however, is the reason that
makes a Tanegashima pattern so interesting. There was a very small
but at the same time big change that people seem to miss. These
matchlocks were the first in which the serpentine fell forward.
This was a big improvement. Older matchlocks the serpentine fell
towards the shooter, this could result in some serious problems.
Burns, blindness, etc. were not uncommon results from this setup.
As of now, since all firearms have a hammer that falls forward in
the direction of the muzzle, these should be noted as the genesis of
virtually all modern firearms design. Also, they have very fine
lines and are nice to shoot. Reproductions, to be exact, are what I
have fired. I'm not a matchlock fan but if I was going to have one
it would be of Tanegashima pattern.

Furthermore, I think there was someone who posted about Chinese
weapons. It was not until Europeans came that they showed Asian
cultures, that if you harnessed the power of gunpowder you could
make nasty weapons. Also, it should be noted that Japanese guns are
of comparable quality to European guns of this period. Most others
from Asia were considered of poor quality or overly ornate, not
considered worth general use.

Anyway, I'm a firearms guy. The gun is such a curious and
elusive thing especially in these early days. I thought I should
add, I believe someone earlier in this thread mentioned cannons,
that they were first produced by bell makers. Fun little trivial
fact, I always found that one a good surprise for those who don't
understand the reason why.

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