Home - Back

Newbie seeks info

- [Previous Topic] [Next Topic]
#9069 [2006-09-25 13:57:00]

Newbie seeks info

by javike010

Hi, I just join this group. I like to write and I love samurai; I've
been trying to mix those two together to make a decent samurai story
but I've failed miserably... So I thought that maybe I needed more
info on the Samurai and that's where you guys come in (please help
me!! *bows)

I read on the samurai archives that when kids reach the age 13 they
receive their first real sword and armor and thus become a samurai. (I
might be wrong, for I'm writing from memory, if I am please correct
me) Any of you guys know more about this ceremony? Was it only for
male 13 year olds? Once they received their real sword were they
allowed to join the 'full-fledged' samurai on the battlefield?

*Please help me if you can!!

[Next #9070]

#9070 [2006-09-25 17:38:27]

Re: [samuraihistory] Newbie seeks info

by Keiswa

A boy underwent his gempuku, manhood ceremony, when he reaches adult height. About 13. Girls also went through the same ceremony. They received their swords, their samurai hair style, and their adult name.
Here's the gempuku from my samurai saga.--
Hope it helps.-----



As tradition dictated, his gempuku ceremony was held and Yoshi was installed in his father's place. In many's opinions, Shigeni had withheld his permission for the boyhood ceremony for too long. With the rest of the household assembled in the courtyard, Michi observed as her son was led from the bathhouse where he had been ritualistically bathed and dressed in the basic clothing of a man. His hair, considered a symbol of life and held great importance to the samurai, covered his shoulders down his back like a girl's, raven as a crow's wing and straight. A long strand dangled into his face to conceal the deep, solemn eyes.

Surrounded by his father's high-ranking retainers, as well as Sou Kiyohara, the boy proceeded to the shrine of Hachiman Taro. The young Sanematsu stood a head taller than all save the priest. Yoshi's grandfather was carried in on his liter, due to the battle wound that had crippled him years before. Only the men entered the small house, but all knew what would take place. Kneeling before the altar of the war god, the barber draped a broad material around young Sanematsu to catch the great length of hair he would remove. After cropping his hair to his shoulders, the barber gathered the sides and top to pull into a clump at the crown. He tied this tightly then turned his attention to the front.

Afterwards, when told what had taken place, Michi was informed Sanematsu chose then to speak.

"I do not wish for the top to be shaved."

From his liter at the side, Lord Shigehide snorted, but Kiyohara, the priest in charge of the ceremony, nodded to the barber to forgo the sakayaki as the young man requested.

The barber retied the queue. Once bundled, he oiled it richly and folded it to lie along the middle of his head. A discreet binding held it in place. Finished, he removed the hair littering the drape. Imperceptibly, Kiyohara rescued a thick lock of the shorn hair and coiled it into a silk envelope.

"Yoshi-dono, stand," Kiyohara spoke and the boy obeyed.

Kiyohara wrapped a wide girdle around Yoshi's waist into which the straps of his hitatare were inserted. This would hold his swords. Over the plain garment covering him to his groin, the priest draped a jacket. This daimon had the Sanematsu kamon at five places-each sleeve at the shoulder, mid-back, and each side of his upper chest. Kiyohara turned to an assistant dresser and picked up another heavier, mid-calf length coat.

"Yoshi-dono, please accept this dobuku from my former samurai wardrobe." Kiyowara put it on the boy-man. "Through it, may you have every attribute you admire in my humble self."

Intricate embroidery of silver threads designing flowers characteristic of masculinity decorated the dark blue dobuku. Thick for warmth, it was typical of the clothing worn by the inhabitants of Kiyohara's native Shikoku, a island north of Kyushu.

"Know that, with the giving and acceptance, I become your patron, to help and guide you through your life," Kiyohara continued.

"I will accept your gift and guidance, Sou Kiyohara," the boy-daimyo answered.

"Very well. We will now speak to the great Buddha."

They knelt before the altar and the priest intoned the necessary prayers. Those who had entered the shrine departed when he concluded. On the engawa of the small building, before the Sanematsu family and the household, Kiyohara officially made the boy samurai.

"From this moment forward, Sanematsu Yoshi, you shall be known as Sanematsu Yoshihide of the clan Minamoto."

By all rights, Sanematsu's adult name should have been Shigeyoshi, but the name Kiyohara bestowed now had been chosen at his birth. Tr5adition held that names be carried down with the same syllables. Yoshi's father had been Shigeni and his father, Shigehide. Michi had named her baby Yoshi and it was kept by Kiyohara had kept it in deference to her.

"You have been called Yoshi, meaning lucky.' Now, with Hide, your luck shall be excellent. With such an exalted name, you will require weapons to insure your good fortune." Kiyohara took the long and short swords held by an assistant. "These are the katana and wazakushi of Minamoto Yoshii, the earthly embodiment of Hachiman Taro. These are your weapons of Bushi, Yoshihide-dono." He inserted the scabbards into the girdle at Yoshihide's waist, the hilts angled to the left.

Then it was over. Wearing the clothes of a man, the young Sanematsu had the appearance of an adult. He took upon his tall, slender form the responsibilities of manhood long before it would fill out into the firm musculature of adulthood.



Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:57 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Newbie seeks info


Hi, I just join this group. I like to write and I love samurai; I've
been trying to mix those two together to make a decent samurai story
but I've failed miserably... So I thought that maybe I needed more
info on the Samurai and that's where you guys come in (please help
me!! *bows)

I read on the samurai archives that when kids reach the age 13 they
receive their first real sword and armor and thus become a samurai. (I
might be wrong, for I'm writing from memory, if I am please correct
me) Any of you guys know more about this ceremony? Was it only for
male 13 year olds? Once they received their real sword were they
allowed to join the 'full-fledged' samurai on the battlefield?

*Please help me if you can!!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9069] [Next #9071]

#9071 [2006-09-26 16:32:15]

Re: Newbie seeks info

by javike010

Thanks, that helps a lot!! I'm intrigued by your story!! If it's
possible could you send it to me via email! I would love to read it
(you seem like a talented writer!!).

I can't think up of another decent question but when I stumble across
another doubt I'll be sure to post!!

[Previous #9070] [Next #9072]

#9072 [2006-09-27 02:51:52]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

by Keiswa

Kevin,
You can purchase Vol. 1 of the Sanematsu Saga from Amazon. It's published by Zumaya Pulications. My contemporary work with Japanese Heroes is published by Genesis Press and can be purchased at any local bookstore or Amazon of course. Check out my website. (see sig line for details.)
Thanks for the compliment!
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:32 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info


Thanks, that helps a lot!! I'm intrigued by your story!! If it's
possible could you send it to me via email! I would love to read it
(you seem like a talented writer!!).

I can't think up of another decent question but when I stumble across
another doubt I'll be sure to post!!





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9071] [Next #9073]

#9073 [2006-09-27 15:37:09]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

by ninaboal21044

Is this an electronic book? Or can you buy a regular, hard copy?

Nina (aka "Wave Tossed" in Samurai Archive Citadel)


_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:52 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info



Kevin,
You can purchase Vol. 1 of the Sanematsu Saga from Amazon. It's published by Zumaya Pulications. My contemporary work with Japanese Heroes is published by Genesis Press and can be purchased at any local bookstore or Amazon of course. Check out my website. (see sig line for details.)
Thanks for the compliment!
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:32 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

Thanks, that helps a lot!! I'm intrigued by your story!! If it's
possible could you send it to me via email! I would love to read it
(you seem like a talented writer!!).

I can't think up of another decent question but when I stumble across
another doubt I'll be sure to post!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9072] [Next #9074]

#9074 [2006-09-27 15:52:04]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

by Keiswa

Tradepaper back. Thanks for asking.
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Boal, Nina
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info


Is this an electronic book? Or can you buy a regular, hard copy?

Nina (aka "Wave Tossed" in Samurai Archive Citadel)

_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:52 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

Kevin,
You can purchase Vol. 1 of the Sanematsu Saga from Amazon. It's published by Zumaya Pulications. My contemporary work with Japanese Heroes is published by Genesis Press and can be purchased at any local bookstore or Amazon of course. Check out my website. (see sig line for details.)
Thanks for the compliment!
Kay Swanson w/a Kei Swanson
www.keiswanson.com
THE WORDS OF THE PITCHER, Genesis Press
A DRUMMER'S BEAT TO MEND, Genesis Press
EBONY EYES, Genesis Press 11/06
THE SANEMATSU SAGA, Zumaya Publications
THE SEABIRD OF SANEMATSU, Amazon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin
To: samuraihistory@ yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:32 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

Thanks, that helps a lot!! I'm intrigued by your story!! If it's
possible could you send it to me via email! I would love to read it
(you seem like a talented writer!!).

I can't think up of another decent question but when I stumble across
another doubt I'll be sure to post!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9073] [Next #9075]

#9075 [2006-09-28 15:05:15]

Re: Newbie seeks info

by javike010

Amazing Swanson-San you're already a full-fledge author!!!! I'll
definitely see if I can get myself a copy of your books!!! I hope one
day I too can publish stories that reflect the greatness of the
Samurai!! Good luck with your works and future books I wish the best!!

[Previous #9074] [Next #9076]

#9076 [2006-09-29 05:32:10]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

by ninaboal21044

Count me in as another aspiring writer. I've published several short stories in the fantasy/SF field, but never a novel. I've switched from writing fantasy/SF to writing historical fiction about Japan. Or as I sometimes call it, "my little corner of chambara-land" because much of what I write is inspired by some of the samurai "chambara" movies that I love. I try to do research when I can to make my writing reasonably accurate i.e. no black-robed ninjas carying "ninja swords." But it is fiction and I reserve the right to use a bit of artistic license, should I so choose.

Just a question to Ms. Swanson: I believe that you explained that one of your female characters tries to pass as a male in order to inherit her domain. I wonder if that would be necessary, actually trying to pose as a man. Because I know that, if a family has no son, then the daughter will inherit -- however a man of appropriate bloodlines will be married into the daughter's family, he will take on her surname, etc. In most cases, he would be named as the lord or actual inheritor -- but sometimes in actual practice, if she were a strong woman, she would actually co-rule or even rule, at least "behind the throne" so to speak.

Also, I have my doubts that a woman could actually pull this off, trying to pass as a man or whether she and her family would see this as being necessary. What I understand is that women with martial skills would study the martial arts in her own right and thus passing as a man would not be necessary. I just got through watching a film about Tsuru-hime, the "Crane Princess", a legendary (not sure if actually historical) female warrior in the Sengoku era who led an army that contained other women warriors in attempting to defend her homeland. As in many Japanese tales about samurai, these brave women warriors and their male colleagues all wound up dying in battle.

In the Samurai Archives forum -- and also on this list, we've had long, involved, sometimes contentious discussions about Japanese women samurai/warriors/members of the buke class (a lot of this contentious discussion revolved around terminology, both in using Japanese and in using English). I believe that a consensus emerged from these discussion that the vast majority of samurai fighting on the battlefield were men. Women of the buke class were usually trained and expected to defend their castle home, using naginata and sometimes swords or bows and arrows.

I really do NOT want to open up that old can of worms about Japanese women warriors here. But if anyone has any comments about the liklihood and/or feasibility of women actually passing as men (as opposed to being women who occasionally wear what normally would be male accoutrements in certain situations) in Japanese history -- I'd like to see them.

Nina aka "Wave Tossed"

_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info



Amazing Swanson-San you're already a full-fledge author!!!! I'll
definitely see if I can get myself a copy of your books!!! I hope one
day I too can publish stories that reflect the greatness of the
Samurai!! Good luck with your works and future books I wish the best!!







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9075] [Next #9077]

#9077 [2006-09-30 04:10:41]

Re: Newbie seeks info

by kurotatsunoshi

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Boal, Nina" wrote:
>
I really do NOT want to open up that old can of worms about Japanese women warriors here. But if anyone has any comments about the liklihood and/or feasibility of women actually passing as men (as opposed to being women who occasionally wear what normally would be male accoutrements in certain situations) in Japanese history -- I'd like to see them.
>

When all of the Ii clan except for Ii Naomasa were killed by the Imagawa during the 1560's, Naomasa'a older cousin Girohoshi 'Naotora' took custody of him and sheltered him in the Ryutanji temple where she had been living. Since Ii was far too young to take effective leadership of the clan, Girohoshi took on the male name 'Naotora' and masqueraded as a man, effectively running the affairs of the Ii clan from 1564-1575 when Naomasa took over (granted, this didn't amount to much-just pretty much getting Naomasa an education, training, and keeping him safe from the Imagawa).

[Previous #9076] [Next #9078]

#9078 [2006-09-30 08:25:28]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Newbie seeks info

by ninaboal21044

In a message dated 9/30/2006 7:35:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ayamechiba@... writes:

--- In _samuraihistory@samuraihistosam_
(mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com) , "Boal, Nina" wrote:
>
I really do NOT want to open up that old can of worms about Japanese women
warriors here. But if anyone has any comments about the liklihood and/or
feasibility of women actually passing as men (as opposed to being women who
occasionally wear what normally would be male accoutrements in certain situations)
in Japanese history -- I'd like to see them.
>

When all of the Ii clan except for Ii Naomasa were killed by the Imagawa
during the 1560's, Naomasa'a older cousin Girohoshi 'Naotora' took custody of
him and sheltered him in the Ryutanji temple where she had been living. Since
Ii was far too young to take effective leadership of the clan, Girohoshi took
on the male name 'Naotora' and masqueraded as a man, effectively running the
affairs of the Ii clan from 1564-1575 when Naomasa took over (granted, this
didn't amount to much-just pretty much getting Naomasa an education, training,
and keeping him safe from the Imagawa).





Thanks for the information. I've heard of this, women taking on men's names,
wearing men's clothing, etc. when put into positions of leadership. My
question still is: Were these symbolic actions -- would a woman in such a position
act as a "man" so to speak, and yet underneath it all, everyone knew that
she was a woman and knew who she actually was? Or would she actually be able to
bind her breasts and actually fool everyone into literally believing that
she was a man?

I'm not an expert, but I tend to think that taking a male name, wearing
men's clothing, etc. were symbolic actions -- most everyone would know what a
ctually was going on and knew inside themselves who she was and that she was a
woman. Because if she were to actually disguise herself as a man at that point
-- she would have to engage in "identity-theft" and take over the identity of
a real, living (or recently-deceased) man. I have doubts that this sort of
identity-theft could take place.

Hmmm. more of a movie/fiction plot, but I suppose the following scenario
could happen. A strange, lone ronin wanders into a castle town, beats the pants
off of everyone in kenjutsu, in duels. He gets hired by the local clan, works
himself up through the ranks -- mysteriously keeps himself private as far as
dressing, etc. (has no servant), discourages marriage proposals. Eventually
someone finds out the secret -- "he" is a woman!!!!

Sounds a lot more like a movie plot than anything that would actually have
happened.

Comments anyone? Especially from anyone who actually is an expert?

Nina aka "Wave Tossed"


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #9077] [Next #9079]

#9079 [2006-09-30 11:45:48]

Re: Newbie seeks info

by kurotatsunoshi

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, nohit@... wrote:

> I'm not an expert, but I tend to think that taking a male name, wearing
> men's clothing, etc. were symbolic actions -- most everyone would know what a
> ctually was going on and knew inside themselves who she was and that she was a
> woman. Because if she were to actually disguise herself as a man at that point
> -- she would have to engage in "identity-theft" and take over the identity of
> a real, living (or recently-deceased) man. I have doubts that this sort of
> identity-theft could take place.


Remember, this is the Sengoku, not the computer age where you can check out someone's background easily. 'Naotora' could simply have shown up and identified herself as one of her father's vassals or a son that had been put in a monastery-no identity theft needed. Having custody of Naomasa would have been all the credibility she needed. 'Naotora' played the part of a man to the hilt and the Ii vassals believed her to be so (many were quite angry when the deception came to light when Naomasa took leadership of the clan). If they didn't, it's unlikely they would have continued to support the clan-it was in a very precarious situation and most were ready to jump ship. It wouldn't have been that hard to hide. 'Naotora' could always be sick and unable to receive visitors, out on a trip, or otherwise unavailable-from the limited amount of info in the Rekishi Gunzou volume, it seemed like she spent most of the time in her regular identity except when 'Naotora' needed to put in an appearance. It wasn't like just anyone could drop in on 'him' anytime, and 'Naotora's' confederates in the temple would cover for her. Japanese women are not known for being big busted-that would have been easy to hide in a loose monk's robe. Since her head was also shaved, this is another thing that blurs sexual identity.
Sometimes it was very difficult to tell a woman from a man back then-think of all the pretty-boy pages or even the legends of Yoshitsune dressing like a woman. Heck, I was watching a Sure Death movie the other day where the bad guy had two pages-one male, one female-and I absolutely could not tell which was which.

[Previous #9078]


Made with