Change of subject

A friend and I were recently having a debate over enduring results of
the Ieyesu Tokugawa reign. My contention is that no other man has
influenced the beauty and indeed personality of Japan more. His micro
management of everything from the basic design of a farmhouse to the
distance between road stations and his insistance that all warriors
practice the peacful pastime of the arts is still felt in everyday
Japan. My companion beleives that the Tokugawa Shuguns by shuting off
Japan for 200 years created unrepairable damage to the Japanese
society. I am interested in the thoughts of this group.

Rob Hirai

Rob wrote:

> A friend and I were recently having a debate over enduring results of
> the Ieyesu Tokugawa reign. My contention is that no other man has
> influenced the beauty and indeed personality of Japan more. His micro
> management of everything from the basic design of a farmhouse to the
> distance between road stations and his insistance that all warriors
> practice the peacful pastime of the arts is still felt in everyday
> Japan. My companion beleives that the Tokugawa Shuguns by shuting off
> Japan for 200 years created unrepairable damage to the Japanese
> society. I am interested in the thoughts of this group.

It may come as no surprise, but I think that the both of you
are both right and wrong, and for a whole slew of reasons.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo

The Tokugawa regime was amazing. Probably the longest-surviving
authoritarian regime that I can think of off-hand. It's interesting to study
to find out about the nature of authoritarian regimes, especially ones as
successful in its longetivity as this one.

Hopefully there will be more discussion on this.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Anthony Bryant
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 8:31 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Change of subject

Rob wrote:

> A friend and I were recently having a debate over enduring results of
> the Ieyesu Tokugawa reign. My contention is that no other man has
> influenced the beauty and indeed personality of Japan more. His micro
> management of everything from the basic design of a farmhouse to the
> distance between road stations and his insistance that all warriors
> practice the peacful pastime of the arts is still felt in everyday
> Japan. My companion beleives that the Tokugawa Shuguns by shuting off
> Japan for 200 years created unrepairable damage to the Japanese
> society. I am interested in the thoughts of this group.

It may come as no surprise, but I think that the both of you are both right
and wrong, and for a whole slew of reasons.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo




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> From: "Rob" <capt_bochan@...>
>
>My companion beleives that the Tokugawa Shuguns by shuting off
>Japan for 200 years created unrepairable damage to the Japanese
>society. I am interested in the thoughts of this group.
>
>

Define unrepairable damage... Japan is a prosperous country that enjoys
a wide variety of culture and material goods. Sounds pretty 'bad' to me.
Their government might not be as corrupt as the US nowadays.

Jim Eckman

I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
regime lasted so long was because of the style of
swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
of its official styles, guided them in their decision
making.

--- "Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...> wrote:

> The Tokugawa regime was amazing. Probably the
> longest-surviving
> authoritarian regime that I can think of off-hand.
> It's interesting to study
> to find out about the nature of authoritarian
> regimes, especially ones as
> successful in its longetivity as this one.
>
> Hopefully there will be more discussion on this.
>
> Nina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Anthony Bryant
> Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 8:31 PM
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Change of subject
>
> Rob wrote:
>
> > A friend and I were recently having a debate over
> enduring results of
> > the Ieyesu Tokugawa reign. My contention is that
> no other man has
> > influenced the beauty and indeed personality of
> Japan more. His micro
> > management of everything from the basic design of
> a farmhouse to the
> > distance between road stations and his insistance
> that all warriors
> > practice the peacful pastime of the arts is still
> felt in everyday
> > Japan. My companion beleives that the Tokugawa
> Shuguns by shuting off
> > Japan for 200 years created unrepairable damage to
> the Japanese
> > society. I am interested in the thoughts of this
> group.
>
> It may come as no surprise, but I think that the
> both of you are both right
> and wrong, and for a whole slew of reasons.
>
> Tony
>
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
> http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store:
> http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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ALL:

Please remember this is a moderated forum--as such,
all posts are reviewed prior to final posting on the
list. The only exception are regular members who have
shown they don't need to be moderated, as determined
by the list owner.

If your post does not immediately show up on the list,
DO NOT try to repost. It is because a moderator has
not been able to review and approve it. There is no
need to repost the same response 3 times. All you are
doing is making me or FW Seal or Kitsuno delete 2 of
your 3 posts. I say again: DO NOT POST THE SAME THING
MORE THAN ONCE. This is getting incredibly annoying.

Tks,

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Jan Versoza wrote:

> I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
> regime lasted so long was because of the style of
> swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
> strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
> sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
> of its official styles, guided them in their decision
> making.

I rather think it had more to do with their politics and
their alliances than their school of swordsmanship.

Martial arts were never the be-all and end-all of Japanese
history, despite the illusions of some modern dojo masters.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo

> I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
> regime lasted so long was because of the style of
> swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
> strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
> sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
> of its official styles, guided them in their decision
> making.

And I think that couldn't be further from the truth. I'll admit I know
next to nothing about the various schools of swordsmanship--nor do I
really have an interest in learning--but there is an awful lot more
involved in governing a country than swinging around a sharpened piece
of steel.

The Tokugawa bakufu lasted as long as it did because of the methods
introduced early on in regards to controlling the clans and the
strategic position of lands that were under direct bakufu control. These
were the reasons that it lasted as long as it did despite it's many
problems.

--AngusH

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "Haynes, A (Angus)" <angus.haynes@...>
wrote:

there is an

> awful lot more
> involved in governing a country than swinging around
> a sharpened piece
> of steel.

Angus: "Strange women lying around in ponds
distributing swords is no basis for a system of
government."

Martial Arts Geek: "Be Quiet"

Angus: "Supreme authority derives from a mandate from
the masses, not some farcical aquatic martial arts
ceremony"

Martial Arts Geek: "BE QUIET"

Angus: "I mean, you can't expect to wield supreme
executive power just because some watery tart threw a
katana at you!"

Martial Arts Geek: "BE QUIET!!!"

Angus: "if I went 'round sayin' I was Shogun, just
because some moistened bint lobbed a wakizashi at me,
they'd put me away"

Martial Arts Geek: "I ORDER you to BE QUIET"

LtDomer98: "Order? Who do you think you are, an
Ultimate Moderator?"

Angus: "Come and see the violence inherent in the
system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Martial Arts Geek: "Bloody hyakusho!"

Angus: "Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did
you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you
see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you?"

















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I am not a huge expert on the Tokugawa era, but from what I have read
on the subject, it seems that the regime survived more thanks to some
of its suppressing laws.
for example peasants not being allowed to leave their land,
daimyos having to spend long periods of time in Edo and having to
leave their families as "hostages" while they were away.

Therefore it was very hard to organize any kind of opposition, and
every section of society was kept under control.

On 9 Feb 2006, at 23:19, Anthony Bryant wrote:

> Jan Versoza wrote:
> > I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
> > regime lasted so long was because of the style of
> > swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
> > strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
> > sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
> > of its official styles, guided them in their decision
> > making.
>
> I rather think it had more to do with their politics and
> their alliances than their school of swordsmanship.
>
> Martial arts were never the be-all and end-all of Japanese
> history, despite the illusions of some modern dojo masters.
>
> Tony
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
> http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But the politics were shaped by the martial arts. The way they were thinking and planning was a "fruit" of their's commitment to martial arts. By the way, it wasn't only a martial art but the way of thinking.
Matt

Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote:
Jan Versoza wrote:

> I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
> regime lasted so long was because of the style of
> swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
> strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
> sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
> of its official styles, guided them in their decision
> making.

I rather think it had more to do with their politics and
their alliances than their school of swordsmanship.

Martial arts were never the be-all and end-all of Japanese
history, despite the illusions of some modern dojo masters.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo




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---------------------------------






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G. K. Chesterton






---------------------------------

What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*** Snips Nate's Monty Python reference ***

All too true, all too true...!

--AngusH

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mateusz Ostrowski wrote:

> But the politics were shaped by the martial arts.

Ahhh.... No.

Please provide documentation for such an outrageous claim.


Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo

--- Mateusz Ostrowski <ostrowski75@...> wrote:

> But the politics were shaped by the martial arts.

No, they weren't--at least not nearly as much as by
expediency, a desire to secure and remain in power,
socioeconomic factors, etc. Tokugawa Ieyasu was not
some mystical warrior-monk who ran out and did a sword
kata every time he had to make some critical political
decision. If anything, he was the ultimate pragmatist.

> The way they were thinking and planning was a
> "fruit" of their's commitment to martial arts. By
> the way, it wasn't only a martial art but the way of
> thinking.
> Matt

Spoken like you subscribe to "Martial Arts
Illustrated". Look, I'm not saying that martial arts
experience wouldn't have aided a decision or two, but
it's ridiculous to say that Shinkage-ryu, or any
martial art, was the basis of the Tokugawa political
construct. Inspired politician, great leader, and good
general--Tokugawa was all of these. Mystical martial
arts warrior king? Not so much. Considering at the end
of his life he was fairly fat, I'm not sure he did
much training beyond the "tempura-do" school.









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Governments fall when they fail to adapt to changing circumstances.

During the Tokugawa period, though, nothing changed. Consequently, they
had no problems (aside from a few minor hicups early on from a few
malcontents early on, when folks were still adjusting to the new order).

I would argue that the Tokugawas' longevity was due to isolation, which
insulated Japan from change. The minute Commodore Perry hit land, the
Tokugawa were doomed (well, maybe not doomed. But they obviously weren't
able to keep up.).

David Kocot

Jan Versoza wrote:

> I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
> regime lasted so long was because of the style of
> swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
> strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
> sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
> of its official styles, guided them in their decision
> making.
>
> --- "Boal, Nina" <Nina.Boal@...> wrote:
>
>
>>The Tokugawa regime was amazing. Probably the
>>longest-surviving
>>authoritarian regime that I can think of off-hand.
>>It's interesting to study
>>to find out about the nature of authoritarian
>>regimes, especially ones as
>>successful in its longetivity as this one.
>>
>>Hopefully there will be more discussion on this.
>>
>>Nina
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>>[mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
>>On Behalf Of Anthony Bryant
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 8:31 PM
>>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Change of subject
>>
>>Rob wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A friend and I were recently having a debate over
>>
>>enduring results of
>>
>>>the Ieyesu Tokugawa reign. My contention is that
>>
>>no other man has
>>
>>>influenced the beauty and indeed personality of
>>
>>Japan more. His micro
>>
>>>management of everything from the basic design of
>>
>>a farmhouse to the
>>
>>>distance between road stations and his insistance
>>
>>that all warriors
>>
>>>practice the peacful pastime of the arts is still
>>
>>felt in everyday
>>
>>>Japan. My companion beleives that the Tokugawa
>>
>>Shuguns by shuting off
>>
>>>Japan for 200 years created unrepairable damage to
>>
>>the Japanese
>>
>>>society. I am interested in the thoughts of this
>>
>>group.
>>
>>It may come as no surprise, but I think that the
>>both of you are both right
>>and wrong, and for a whole slew of reasons.
>>
>>Tony
>>
>>--
>>
>>Anthony J. Bryant
>>Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>>
>>Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
>>http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>>
>>All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
>>http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---
>>Join the 2006 Samurai Fiction contest:
>>http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon2.html
>>
>>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>>Samurai Archives store:
>>http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>>---
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Bryant
wrote:

>
> Mateusz Ostrowski wrote:
> > But the politics were shaped by the martial arts.
>
> Ahhh.... No.
>
> Please provide documentation for such an outrageous claim.
>
>

LOL you know as well as I do that there is as much documentation to
support that as documentation that supports William Adams having an
elicit affair with Hosokawa Gracia and a key role in Tokugawa Ieyasu's
rise to Shogun.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> ALL:
>
> Please remember this is a moderated forum--as such,
> all posts are reviewed prior to final posting on the
> list. The only exception are regular members who have
> shown they don't need to be moderated, as determined
> by the list owner.
>
> If your post does not immediately show up on the list,
> DO NOT try to repost. It is because a moderator has
> not been able to review and approve it. There is no
> need to repost the same response 3 times. All you are
> doing is making me or FW Seal or Kitsuno delete 2 of
> your 3 posts. I say again: DO NOT POST THE SAME THING
> MORE THAN ONCE. This is getting incredibly annoying.
>
> Tks,
>
> The Mgmt.
>
>

Thanks. This is a MODERATED list. And not by robots or software
scripts. Someone actually has to physically press the "submit" button,
and we obviously aren't doing it 24 hours a day.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Bryant
wrote:

>
> Jan Versoza wrote:
> > I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa
> > regime lasted so long was because of the style of
> > swordsmanship they studied. I believe that the
> > strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the
> > sword art practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one
> > of its official styles, guided them in their decision
> > making.
>
> I rather think it had more to do with their politics and
> their alliances than their school of swordsmanship.
>
> Martial arts were never the be-all and end-all of Japanese
> history, despite the illusions of some modern dojo masters.
>
> Tony
>

Modern Western dojo 'masters' for that matter. Yet another thing that
desperately needs to be added to the "misconceptions".

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, David Kocot wrote:

>
> Governments fall when they fail to adapt to changing circumstances.
>
> During the Tokugawa period, though, nothing changed. Consequently, they
> had no problems (aside from a few minor hicups early on from a few
> malcontents early on, when folks were still adjusting to the new order).
>
> I would argue that the Tokugawas' longevity was due to isolation, which
> insulated Japan from change. The minute Commodore Perry hit land, the
> Tokugawa were doomed (well, maybe not doomed. But they obviously

weren't

> able to keep up.).
>
> David Kocot
>

Definately. And "adapting" is something that the Japanese government,
shogunate, bakufu, or any other power group of ANY era has never been
good at. You almost never see change, just revolutions and power
grabs. In this brave new world of swords into plowshares, it will be
interesting to see how far the Japanese economy will have to fall
before either the country falls into third world status, or for the
government to reorganize and reform. Guns and swords wouldn't go over
well in this 'modern' world. But, most likely, Japan will continue to
simply flounder at the status quo for the next few decades. It seems
that no government in any country wants to change until it is a decade
or two into utter crisis. A pound of cure seems so much more
worthwhile than that ounce of prevention. Looking at it from the
perspective of history, it will be interesting to see how post-modern
revolutions in first world countries are conducted. 120 years ago,
when economies weren't tied together guns and steel could work, and
did work, they were the agents of change. Not specificaly 'samurai'
related, but interesting nonetheless.

Tony, I agree with you. I don't think that the length and success of the
Tokugawa regime had a lot to do with their kenjutsu style. Because
during this period, skill in rulership, politics, accounting held a lot
more sway than skill with a sword.

Nina

-----Original Message-----
From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 6:19 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Change of subject

Jan Versoza wrote:

> I think one of the main reasons why the Tokugawa regime lasted so long

> was because of the style of swordsmanship they studied. I believe that

> the strategic concepts inherent in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, the sword art
> practiced and chosen by the Shogunate as one of its official styles,
> guided them in their decision making.

I rather think it had more to do with their politics and their alliances
than their school of swordsmanship.

Martial arts were never the be-all and end-all of Japanese history,
despite the illusions of some modern dojo masters.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo




---
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Kitsuno wrote:

> LOL you know as well as I do that there is as much documentation to
> support that as documentation that supports William Adams having an
> elicit affair with Hosokawa Gracia and a key role in Tokugawa Ieyasu's
> rise to Shogun.

But I read a book about it... and saw a movie!


Tony

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I don't have... ;-)

Anthony Bryant <anthony_bryant@...> wrote: Mateusz Ostrowski wrote:

> But the politics were shaped by the martial arts.

Ahhh.... No.

Please provide documentation for such an outrageous claim.


Tony

--

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Mateusz B. Ostrowski



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm sorry for what I've written. I meant only philosophy not actual physical act of training. Although I believe that if I am mistaken the lesson I'm gonna get from you will be extremely beneficial for my MINI knowledge on japanese history.
Thank you in advance!
Matt


Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:


--- Mateusz Ostrowski <ostrowski75@...> wrote:

> But the politics were shaped by the martial arts.

No, they weren't--at least not nearly as much as by
expediency, a desire to secure and remain in power,
socioeconomic factors, etc. Tokugawa Ieyasu was not
some mystical warrior-monk who ran out and did a sword
kata every time he had to make some critical political
decision. If anything, he was the ultimate pragmatist.

> The way they were thinking and planning was a
> "fruit" of their's commitment to martial arts. By
> the way, it wasn't only a martial art but the way of
> thinking.
> Matt

Spoken like you subscribe to "Martial Arts
Illustrated". Look, I'm not saying that martial arts
experience wouldn't have aided a decision or two, but
it's ridiculous to say that Shinkage-ryu, or any
martial art, was the basis of the Tokugawa political
construct. Inspired politician, great leader, and good
general--Tokugawa was all of these. Mystical martial
arts warrior king? Not so much. Considering at the end
of his life he was fairly fat, I'm not sure he did
much training beyond the "tempura-do" school.









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G. K. Chesterton






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow! Great responses from all! I am glad to join this group. I
believe my question was not why the Tokugawa control lasted so long
but rather do you as a group think Japan has benefited from the 200
years of isolation under Tokugawa control or has it like my friend
contends been subjected to unrepairable social damage?

Rob Hirai



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@...> wrote:

>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, David Kocot

wrote:

> >
> > Governments fall when they fail to adapt to changing

circumstances.

> >
> > During the Tokugawa period, though, nothing changed.

Consequently, they

> > had no problems (aside from a few minor hicups early on from a

few

> > malcontents early on, when folks were still adjusting to the new

order).

> >
> > I would argue that the Tokugawas' longevity was due to

isolation, which

> > insulated Japan from change. The minute Commodore Perry hit

land, the

> > Tokugawa were doomed (well, maybe not doomed. But they obviously
> weren't
> > able to keep up.).
> >
> > David Kocot
> >
>
> Definately. And "adapting" is something that the Japanese

government,

> shogunate, bakufu, or any other power group of ANY era has never

been

> good at. You almost never see change, just revolutions and power
> grabs. In this brave new world of swords into plowshares, it will

be

> interesting to see how far the Japanese economy will have to fall
> before either the country falls into third world status, or for the
> government to reorganize and reform. Guns and swords wouldn't go

over

> well in this 'modern' world. But, most likely, Japan will continue

to

> simply flounder at the status quo for the next few decades. It

seems

> that no government in any country wants to change until it is a

decade

> or two into utter crisis. A pound of cure seems so much more
> worthwhile than that ounce of prevention. Looking at it from the
> perspective of history, it will be interesting to see how post-

modern

> revolutions in first world countries are conducted. 120 years ago,
> when economies weren't tied together guns and steel could work, and
> did work, they were the agents of change. Not specificaly 'samurai'
> related, but interesting nonetheless.
>

> From: "Rob" <capt_bochan@...>
>I believe my question was not why the Tokugawa control lasted so long
>but rather do you as a group think Japan has benefited from the 200
>years of isolation under Tokugawa control or has it like my friend
>contends been subjected to unrepairable social damage?

I believe I asked for a definition of unrepairable social damage. They don't look any more screwed up than any other country and are better off than most.

What changes for the better or worse would have occurred if they weren't isolated?

> From: Thodoris Dimaras <thdimaras@...>
>
>As it's been pointed out before "It's the economy,
>stupid!"

Excellent summary.

> From: "Rob" <capt_bochan@...>
>Subject: Tokugawa
>
>It was from the beginning a solid understanding and practice of
>Confucian political beleifs and studies.

???? More like 'The Prince' I would say. The other baggage was brought in later as a method to bolster the regime.

>This has been well documented and is without argument.

Please list sources then.

>Rather my change of subject conversation was how modern Japan has developed, no, rather profitted from 200 years of
>Tokugawa control.

Since my wayback machine with the God attachment is broken I will spin some postulates.

1. Japan has been through several periods of wildly importing foreign cultures and ideas, this one will end in the 1650s and not the early 1600's.

2. Japan figures out that 'our ships really suck, let's copy even more Western ships'. Also guns are good but cannons are sweet!

3. Hey there's lots of money, land and power up for grabs locally if you have a good navy and army!

The Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere starts 300 years early. Japan controls the Far East for all intents and purpose in the mid 1850s.

Of course I don't know if that would really be a benefit or not. I suspect the rest of Asia would not think so.

>Starting with Ueyesu the Tokugawas ruled unlike any other leaders.

You will have to be far more specific about this one. Name one unique attribute or action.

>My thoughts were directed more to the enforcement of non
>militaristic training for all Tokugawa senior warriors such as the
>arts, his mircomanagement of all aspects of daily life from the only
>approved design and measurement of building houses to how a bucket of
>rice was to be sold and on to even what could and could not be spoken
>of in public.

Many of the regulations came long after Ieyasu, its in the nature of bureacrats to create more rules as time goes by.

Jim Eckman

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman
wrote:

>
> > From: "Rob"
> >I believe my question was not why the Tokugawa control lasted so

long

> >but rather do you as a group think Japan has benefited from the

200

> >years of isolation under Tokugawa control or has it like my

friend

> >contends been subjected to unrepairable social damage?
>
> I believe I asked for a definition of unrepairable social damage.

They don't look any more screwed up than any other country and are
better off than most.

>
> What changes for the better or worse would have occurred if they

weren't isolated?

>

I must apologize. I should have given further amplification. The
original conversation between a friend and I was mainly concerning
art and architecture. I am a carpenter studying traditional
farmhouse restoration. My friend in speaking of unrepairable damage
was referring to restrictions in advancement enforced by the
Tokugawas. Our joke was that had Japan advanced at the same level as
the west they would have central heating by now! In my view however
much of Japans beauty lies in the lasting results of those
enforcements.

> > From: Thodoris Dimaras
> >
> >As it's been pointed out before "It's the economy,
> >stupid!"
>
> Excellent summary.
>
> > From: "Rob"
> >Subject: Tokugawa
> >
> >It was from the beginning a solid understanding and practice of
> >Confucian political beleifs and studies.
>
> ???? More like 'The Prince' I would say. The other baggage was

brought in later as a method to bolster the regime.

>
> >This has been well documented and is without argument.
>
> Please list sources then.
>

I could write a book of references here but I think these will
suffice. Tsukahira -The sankin kotai system of Tokugawa Japan
Totman- Politics in the Tokugawa bakufu.
Nakamura- Ieyasuden
Hall- Government and Local power in Japan.

It was highly enjoyable and very interesting reading all the great
responses. Thank you all!!

Hirai

> >Rather my change of subject conversation was how modern Japan has

developed, no, rather profitted from 200 years of

> >Tokugawa control.

>
> Since my wayback machine with the God attachment is broken I will

spin some postulates.

>
> 1. Japan has been through several periods of wildly importing

foreign cultures and ideas, this one will end in the 1650s and not
the early 1600's.

>
> 2. Japan figures out that 'our ships really suck, let's copy even

more Western ships'. Also guns are good but cannons are sweet!

>
> 3. Hey there's lots of money, land and power up for grabs locally

if you have a good navy and army!

>
> The Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere starts 300 years early.

Japan controls the Far East for all intents and purpose in the mid
1850s.

>
> Of course I don't know if that would really be a benefit or not. I

suspect the rest of Asia would not think so.

>
>
> >Starting with Ueyesu the Tokugawas ruled unlike any other

leaders.

>
> You will have to be far more specific about this one. Name one

unique attribute or action.

>
> >My thoughts were directed more to the enforcement of non
> >militaristic training for all Tokugawa senior warriors such as

the

> >arts, his mircomanagement of all aspects of daily life from the

only

> >approved design and measurement of building houses to how a

bucket of

> >rice was to be sold and on to even what could and could not be

spoken

> >of in public.
>
> Many of the regulations came long after Ieyasu, its in the nature

of bureacrats to create more rules as time goes by.

>
> Jim Eckman
>

> From: "Rob" <capt_bochan@...>
>
>
>I must apologize. I should have given further amplification. The
>original conversation between a friend and I was mainly concerning
>art and architecture. I am a carpenter studying traditional
>farmhouse restoration. My friend in speaking of unrepairable damage
>was referring to restrictions in advancement enforced by the
>Tokugawas.
>

That's interesting, I have a fair collection of books on the subject
along with a fairly good working collection of tools. I use Western
planes, its what I learned on but I love the Japanese pull saws for
benchwork and cutting joints. The chisels and marking gauges are nice as
well.

>Our joke was that had Japan advanced at the same level as
>the west they would have central heating by now! In my view however
>much of Japans beauty lies in the lasting results of those
>enforcements.
>
>

Most gaijin love traditional Japanese houses, but most of the Japanese
I've talked to hate them so it might be a wash. It would be unlikely for
me to meet an extremely traditional Japanese in the US though so my
sample is biased.

>I could write a book of references here but I think these will
>suffice. Tsukahira -The sankin kotai system of Tokugawa Japan
>Totman- Politics in the Tokugawa bakufu.
>Nakamura- Ieyasuden
>Hall- Government and Local power in Japan.
>
>It was highly enjoyable and very interesting reading all the great
>responses. Thank you all!!
>
>

No problem. It's easy for me to run off at the keyboard.

> From: "Ijin Mibu" <ijinmibu@...>
>Subject: Benkei and Ushiwakamaru
>
> I wanted to ask if anyone knows of Benkei and Ushiwakamaru the two
>tragic heroes of the kamakura period. The famed warriors of Kyoto, I
>think they lived sometime around the Genpei War. If you know anything
>please type back, thank you.
>
>

Type Yoshitsune into google and step back, Yoshitsune and Benkei are
like Robin Hood and Little John. You will be overwhelmed with
websources. Ushiwakamaru works fairly well also. A quick peek shows some
reasonable sites near the top.

Also since the Taiga drama that just finished is about them, anybody who
watches Japanese TV has probably heard of them.

Jim Eckman

--- Rob <capt_bochan@...> wrote:

Our joke was that had Japan advanced at

> the same level as
> the west they would have central heating by now!

Ah, but the toilet seats are oh-so-warm...

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
>
>
> --- Rob wrote:
>
> Our joke was that had Japan advanced at
> > the same level as
> > the west they would have central heating by now!
>
> Ah, but the toilet seats are oh-so-warm...
>

The first time I encountered that, I stood up immediately. It took me
a second to figure out that it wasn't some overweight salaryman who
had warmed it up for me a few moments before. Ugh.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
>
>
> --- Rob wrote:
>
> Our joke was that had Japan advanced at
> > the same level as
> > the west they would have central heating by now!
>
> Ah, but the toilet seats are oh-so-warm...

That's so funny!!! Yes! They are indeed. My wife laughed hard when I
showed her your reply. In our 150 year old farmhouse one of the only
modern conveniences I was adament about having was a heated toilet
seat!

>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>

--- Rob <capt_bochan@...> wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Rob wrote:
> >
> > Our joke was that had Japan advanced at
> > > the same level as
> > > the west they would have central heating by now!
>
> >
> > Ah, but the toilet seats are oh-so-warm...
>
> That's so funny!!! Yes! They are indeed. My wife
> laughed hard when I
> showed her your reply. In our 150 year old farmhouse
> one of the only
> modern conveniences I was adament about having was a
> heated toilet
> seat!

Where do you live again? I'm in Kanagawa.

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Being from Minnesota, the heated seats were definately welcomed. One of my friends went to the company and had some of those toilets shipped back to the US.

Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote: --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
>
>
> --- Rob wrote:
>
> Our joke was that had Japan advanced at
> > the same level as
> > the west they would have central heating by now!
>
> Ah, but the toilet seats are oh-so-warm...
>

The first time I encountered that, I stood up immediately. It took me
a second to figure out that it wasn't some overweight salaryman who
had warmed it up for me a few moments before. Ugh.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
>
>
> --- Rob wrote:
>
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> > Ledbetter
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Rob wrote:
> > >
> > > Our joke was that had Japan advanced at
> > > > the same level as
> > > > the west they would have central heating by now!
> >
> > >
> > > Ah, but the toilet seats are oh-so-warm...
> >
> > That's so funny!!! Yes! They are indeed. My wife
> > laughed hard when I
> > showed her your reply. In our 150 year old farmhouse
> > one of the only
> > modern conveniences I was adament about having was a
> > heated toilet
> > seat!
>
> Where do you live again? I'm in Kanagawa.
>

I live in Kanaya in the village called Unda together with my wife
Eriko and son Kaisuke. Kanaya is in Shizuoka prefecture. Green tea
fields as far as you can see!

> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>

--- Rob <capt_bochan@...> wrote:

> I live in Kanaya in the village called Unda together
> with my wife
> Eriko and son Kaisuke. Kanaya is in Shizuoka
> prefecture. Green tea
> fields as far as you can see!

Oh yeah, that's right--I remember now. You're "just
down the street", if by street you mean the Tomei. :)

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Hi.

There was a flowering of culture during the Edo period. I suppose that
Japan could have instead decided to conquer places like Indonesia and
the Phillipines during the seventeenth century. That would have
significantly changed world history.

For the first time I have to agree with those aginst martial artest. To be frank Martial Arts as some one to day practices is now where near to what they where doing then. What most practice now is called sport art. It looks very simular but there is very lil simulatrities. I know this may hurt some of you MA buffs but do some research on the practices of ancient MA and then the governments. When looking at where a country came from you hear very little about MA. Like if you reviewed Japan or even China their histories where not shaped by MA but the best political moves or the best thought political moves by the leaders of the day. MA is a very deep part of these countries cultures but not what shaped their political views and moves.

@...> wrote:

--- Mateusz Ostrowski <ostrowski75@...> wrote:

> But the politics were shaped by the martial arts.

No, they weren't--at least not nearly as much as by
expediency, a desire to secure and remain in power,
socioeconomic factors, etc. Tokugawa Ieyasu was not
some mystical warrior-monk who ran out and did a sword
kata every time he had to make some critical political
decision. If anything, he was the ultimate pragmatist.

> The way they were thinking and planning was a
> "fruit" of their's commitment to martial arts. By
> the way, it wasn't only a martial art but the way of
> thinking.
> Matt

Spoken like you subscribe to "Martial Arts
Illustrated". Look, I'm not saying that martial arts
experience wouldn't have aided a decision or two, but
it's ridiculous to say that Shinkage-ryu, or any
martial art, was the basis of the Tokugawa political
construct. Inspired politician, great leader, and good
general--Tokugawa was all of these. Mystical martial
arts warrior king? Not so much. Considering at the end
of his life he was fairly fat, I'm not sure he did
much training beyond the "tempura-do" school.









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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hirai-san

I recommend Zusetsu Edo series-Gakken graphic books deluxe
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4054012396/ref=pd_bxgy_text_2/5
03-4523529-4695958
http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4054019919/503-4523529-4695958
300 years of peace created rich culture.

If anybody read Japanese, please read this.
"ｿ川�R‚O‚O"Nを支えた流'ʍ\`¢
http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~makinoh2/edo/edo5.html

Good Morning, I think its these sideways comments that help uncover the real
beauty of the history we all love. Irish Kee...






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---
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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "shikisokuzekukusokuzeshiki8"
wrote:

>
> Hirai-san
>
> I recommend Zusetsu Edo series-Gakken graphic books deluxe

Oshiete kurete arigatou. Yonde mimasu.

Mata yoroshiku onegaishimasu

Hirai

>

http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4054012396/ref=pd_bxgy_text_2/5

> 03-4523529-4695958
> http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4054019919/503-4523529-

4695958

> 300 years of peace created rich culture.
>
> If anybody read Japanese, please read this.
> "ｿ川�R‚O‚O"Nを支えた流'ʍ\`¢
> http://www.ops.dti.ne.jp/~makinoh2/edo/edo5.html
>