modern conception of samurai culture in western movies

hello there.
im new to this forum.
im currently a student in mordern japanese studies, and being a big fan of movies, i have
decided to write my dissertaiton on how samurai culture is beeing depicted in hollywood
cinema. concentrating on film as history, which elements are left out, why and what are the
concequences.
film wise i plan to look at ghostdog, kill bill, and the last samurai but any other films are very
welcome.

my question is, what are your opinion on the subject?, do you have any books you can
recommend. In short, any information that could be useful.

thank you very much.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "foxfoil" wrote:

>
> hello there.
> im new to this forum.
> im currently a student in mordern japanese studies, and being a big

fan of movies, i have

> decided to write my dissertaiton on how samurai culture is beeing

depicted in hollywood

> cinema. concentrating on film as history, which elements are left

out, why and what are the

> concequences.
> film wise i plan to look at ghostdog, kill bill, and the last

samurai but any other films are very

> welcome.
>
> my question is, what are your opinion on the subject?, do you have

any books you can

> recommend. In short, any information that could be useful.
>
> thank you very much.
>

For starters, you would want to call it the "modern MISCONCEPTION of
Samurai culture in Western movies, and how Samurai culture is being
criminalized in Western movies. I don't have the time at the moment to
address this fully, but the consequences is that it reinforces the
long held stereotypes and does nothing to show the real history. There
are a lot of people here than I'm sure agree with me. You've come to
the right place with your topic. I hope others here speak up. Nate,
Tony - get to work!

--- foxfoil <foxfoil@...> wrote:

> hello there.
> im new to this forum.
> im currently a student in mordern japanese studies,
> and being a big fan of movies,

And apparently new to capitalization, apostrophes, and
spelling.

i have

> decided to write my dissertaiton

I hope you have very forgiving professors, if you
can't spell "dissertation".

Okay, I'm sorry--I'm not trying to pick on you, in
particular. However, recently we've had quite a lot of
"wat do u lik about teh samuria??? ninja are teh
suxors!!!11!" type posts from list members. This is
unacceptable.

If you (general "you", not foxfoil in particular) are
above the age of 13, write like it. Otherwise, you
will not be taken seriously. Many posters come from
non-English speaking countries, and English is not
their native language--we are fully accepting of your
mistakes, because you try. I'm certainly not capable
of typing in Spanish or Russian, so I won't criticize
your efforts in English. Likewise for posters who have
handicaps such as dyslexia. If someone doesn't fall
into these categories and writes they're on a Teen
Beat L33t message board, most of the serious regulars
will assume you are 12 years old. If you are not, then
the moderators will not take your question seriously
if you don't take things like spelling "samurai" (it's
not samuria, saumari, or any other variation I've seen
in the last few days) seriously.

Laziness isn't an excuse.

--The Mgmt.

Now, to your question:

on how samurai

> culture is beeing depicted in hollywood
> cinema. concentrating on film as history, which
> elements are left out, why and what are the
> concequences.
> film wise i plan to look at ghostdog, kill bill, and
> the last samurai but any other films are very
> welcome.
>

If you want to look at charicatures of samurai foisted
upon us by Hollywood, those are good movies to look
at. However, none of them accurately picture anything.
Of course, no "Hollywood" movies do. Perhaps that can
be your main point.

> my question is, what are your opinion on the
> subject?, do you have any books you can
> recommend. In short, any information that could be
> useful.

I recommend watching as many Japanese movies depicting
the samurai as you can, and contrasting them with the
generalized "Ooh, check out the exotic Asians doing
Zen and martial arts" put out by Hollywood.

There's a fairly recent book out that discusses
Japanese cinema, especially Kurosawa and other samurai
films--I'm not sure of the name, but someone here
knows for sure, since I've seen it referenced.

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--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> For starters, you would want to call it the "modern
> MISCONCEPTION of
> Samurai culture in Western movies, and how Samurai
> culture is being
> criminalized in Western movies. I don't have the
> time at the moment to
> address this fully, but the consequences is that it
> reinforces the
> long held stereotypes and does nothing to show the
> real history. There
> are a lot of people here than I'm sure agree with
> me. You've come to
> the right place with your topic. I hope others here
> speak up. Nate,
> Tony - get to work!

Foxfoil, start HERE:

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm

Here are 11, plus two WONDERFULLY written bonus
sections :), common misconceptions Westerners hold
about the samurai, perpetuated by Hollywood and other
fiction.

More later when I've got time.


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In a message dated 01/29/2006 12:29:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
samurai-listowner@... writes:

>
> For starters, you would want to call it the "modern MISCONCEPTION of
> Samurai culture in Western movies, and how Samurai culture is being
> criminalized in Western movies. I don't have the time at the moment to
> address this fully, but the consequences is that it reinforces the
> long held stereotypes and does nothing to show the real history. There
> are a lot of people here than I'm sure agree with me. You've come to
> the right place with your topic. I hope others here speak up. Nate,
> Tony - get to work!
>
>

Ooooh, don't get me started on this..... :<

There are so many Western misconceptions of samurai history and culture. Let
me count the ways.....

In the first place, a real samurai was born and (for the most part) lived in
one country, JAPAN during a specific period of history. From around 1100 until
around 1868 (NOTE: please anyone correct me on the specifics of dates; I
forget the exact year that the samurai class was officially abolished). After the
samurai were officially abolished in Japan, there WERE NO MORE SAMURAI.

In the second place, a samurai was almost always born into the samurai class.
In general, a person couldn't wake up and tell himself, "gee, I think I'd
really like a career as a samurai, so I'll enroll in Samurai 101 at the Samurai
University." Once in a while, a non-samurai could be married into a samurai
family, usually as an adopted son. But for the most part, a samurai was born, not
made.

In the third place, the Western idea of samurai women as being wafting, week,
simpering Oriental beauties, just waiting for a strong, strapping Tom Cruise
clone to rescue her from the cruel, sinister evil male-chauvinist-pig Oriental
men: this is purely a fantasy.

NOTE HERE: we already had a long, involved discussion about the real roles of
women in historical samurai culture on the forum and probably here as well.
So with the above, I do NOT intend to get involved in such a discussion again.
What I meant above is that Western mythmakers have a whole lot of fantasies
about servile, compliant, helpless Asian women, and this is reflected in a lot
of Western movies and novels.

A prime example of Western misconceptions about the samurai is in comparing
the films THE SEVEN SAMURAI and THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. The latter film was
taken from the former as a "western" version.

THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN was a great film in its own right, but it is NOT a
parallel to the culture shown in THE SEVEN SAMURAI. Western gunfighters are not
Japanese ronin; western gunfighters don't have the same issues, culture, or
place as Japanese ronin. A person in the U.S. could decide that, "I think I'll
become a gunfighter," then could study hard and then go forth in this career.

A Japanese ronin rarefly became a ronin by choice. Usually he was forced into
this role by some event in history. And also, a ronin could not be a ronin
without first being a samurai. So he had to be born into the samurai class,
unlike western U.S. gunfighters, who could be born in any class or background.

And then there are the vast differences between 17th century Japan itself and
19th century U.S. I could write a book on this.

Enough for now. Nina

I recently purchased an excellent book called 'The Samurai Film' by Alain Silver. It was recently updated, and has some nice photographs as well. Although it cover many Japanese samurai films, it also deals with some western films.

I would also recommend the Akira Kurosawa documentary which can be found on DVD. No worries for non-Japanese speakers--it is done in English.

You may also want to look into adaptations of Kurosawa movies which were mostly 'western' western films. For example... 'The Magnificent Seven.' I'm not sure it would fit into what you are trying to do, but it might be a unique angle.

Jonathan

Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote: --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "foxfoil" wrote:

>
> hello there.
> im new to this forum.
> im currently a student in mordern japanese studies, and being a big

fan of movies, i have

> decided to write my dissertaiton on how samurai culture is beeing

depicted in hollywood

> cinema. concentrating on film as history, which elements are left

out, why and what are the

> concequences.
> film wise i plan to look at ghostdog, kill bill, and the last

samurai but any other films are very

> welcome.
>
> my question is, what are your opinion on the subject?, do you have

any books you can

> recommend. In short, any information that could be useful.
>
> thank you very much.
>

For starters, you would want to call it the "modern MISCONCEPTION of
Samurai culture in Western movies, and how Samurai culture is being
criminalized in Western movies. I don't have the time at the moment to
address this fully, but the consequences is that it reinforces the
long held stereotypes and does nothing to show the real history. There
are a lot of people here than I'm sure agree with me. You've come to
the right place with your topic. I hope others here speak up. Nate,
Tony - get to work!





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry for the lack of proper grammar and sentence structuring. I will make the effort from
now on, no more suxing like a n00b. (a Simple : "watch you spelling!" would have been
sufficient)

Thank you for your quick response, I know that my post was a little vague but I just wanted
to mention what I was doing. If people are interested, I will go into more detail of what
research I have done and what arguments I plan to put forward, along with a progress report.

I dont have much time at the moment either, but Im glad people really understand that the Magnificant Seven (although a great movie) dosnt really show the true charecteristics of samurai. Just wanted to say thanks. (Although, I must admit, I still liked "Last Samurai", even if it was basically false.)

nohit@... wrote: In a message dated 01/29/2006 12:29:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
samurai-listowner@... writes:

>
> For starters, you would want to call it the "modern MISCONCEPTION of
> Samurai culture in Western movies, and how Samurai culture is being
> criminalized in Western movies. I don't have the time at the moment to
> address this fully, but the consequences is that it reinforces the
> long held stereotypes and does nothing to show the real history. There
> are a lot of people here than I'm sure agree with me. You've come to
> the right place with your topic. I hope others here speak up. Nate,
> Tony - get to work!
>
>

Ooooh, don't get me started on this..... :<

There are so many Western misconceptions of samurai history and culture. Let
me count the ways.....

In the first place, a real samurai was born and (for the most part) lived in
one country, JAPAN during a specific period of history. From around 1100 until
around 1868 (NOTE: please anyone correct me on the specifics of dates; I
forget the exact year that the samurai class was officially abolished). After the
samurai were officially abolished in Japan, there WERE NO MORE SAMURAI.

In the second place, a samurai was almost always born into the samurai class.
In general, a person couldn't wake up and tell himself, "gee, I think I'd
really like a career as a samurai, so I'll enroll in Samurai 101 at the Samurai
University." Once in a while, a non-samurai could be married into a samurai
family, usually as an adopted son. But for the most part, a samurai was born, not
made.

In the third place, the Western idea of samurai women as being wafting, week,
simpering Oriental beauties, just waiting for a strong, strapping Tom Cruise
clone to rescue her from the cruel, sinister evil male-chauvinist-pig Oriental
men: this is purely a fantasy.

NOTE HERE: we already had a long, involved discussion about the real roles of
women in historical samurai culture on the forum and probably here as well.
So with the above, I do NOT intend to get involved in such a discussion again.
What I meant above is that Western mythmakers have a whole lot of fantasies
about servile, compliant, helpless Asian women, and this is reflected in a lot
of Western movies and novels.

A prime example of Western misconceptions about the samurai is in comparing
the films THE SEVEN SAMURAI and THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. The latter film was
taken from the former as a "western" version.

THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN was a great film in its own right, but it is NOT a
parallel to the culture shown in THE SEVEN SAMURAI. Western gunfighters are not
Japanese ronin; western gunfighters don't have the same issues, culture, or
place as Japanese ronin. A person in the U.S. could decide that, "I think I'll
become a gunfighter," then could study hard and then go forth in this career.

A Japanese ronin rarefly became a ronin by choice. Usually he was forced into
this role by some event in history. And also, a ronin could not be a ronin
without first being a samurai. So he had to be born into the samurai class,
unlike western U.S. gunfighters, who could be born in any class or background.

And then there are the vast differences between 17th century Japan itself and
19th century U.S. I could write a book on this.

Enough for now. Nina


---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nate wrote:

If you (general "you", not foxfoil in particular) are above the age of 13,
write like it. Otherwise, you will not be taken seriously. Many posters come
from non-English speaking countries, and English is not their native
language--we are fully accepting of your mistakes, because you try. I'm
certainly not capable of typing in Spanish or Russian, so I won't criticize
your efforts in English. Likewise for posters who have handicaps such as
dyslexia. If someone doesn't fall into these categories and writes they're
on a Teen Beat L33t message board, most of the serious regulars will assume
you are 12 years old. If you are not, then the moderators will not take your
question seriously if you don't take things like spelling "samurai" (it's
not samuria, saumari, or any other variation I've seen in the last few days)
seriously.

Laziness isn't an excuse.

--The Mgmt.


I think laziness is not their excuse but mistype is. If you type samurai
using ten fingers fast, sometimes you mistype samurai as samuria. :-) I
sometimes do, but not in this group as I can recall. But if the poster type:
"wat do u lik about teh samuria???", that's another case :-)

Totok S

Dear Foxfoil-
You have set for yourself an enormous task. As you can see there are
many strong opinions here, the underlying theme being if you are
going to write about the conception of the samurai you had first
better know from real history just what a samurai really is (was).
Will you study only one period in Japanese History as background or
all of it? The samurai dominated art, culture and politics for close
to a thousand years. What will be your control model? How western
scholars view the samurai? How Japanese scholars view him? How
Japanese popular culture sees him today or how he was viewed in context?
There are a lot of great films out there, what is the cut off for
"modern Hollywood film?" Is "Memoirs" included in your list? Would
you include Black Rain? or Mr Baseball? or Gung-ho? None feature a
man in 16th century armour but all feed the (mis-)conception. What
about The Octagon, The Challenge, Red Sun, Bushido Blade or The
Yakuza? or even The Killer Elite or Bataan and a dozen other war
films? are they too old to be "modern?" How are you going to sort
them out and decide what to include and what to ignore? It is a big
job. It certainly can be done but you may need to tighten your focus
or you'll wind up starting off on a career rather than a dissertation...
-t

Good luck with both BTW

--- Totok Sudarijanto <totok.sudarijanto@...>
wrote:

> I think laziness is not their excuse but mistype is.
> If you type samurai
> using ten fingers fast, sometimes you mistype
> samurai as samuria. :-) I
> sometimes do, but not in this group as I can recall.
> But if the poster type:
> "wat do u lik about teh samuria???", that's another
> case :-)

Spelling it "samuria" once--that's mistyping. That's
understandable, we all make mistakes.

Consistent mistakes in spelling, punctuation,
capitalization, etc., is a different matter. The
moderators reserve the right to delete any posts we
see fit--you agree to that by joining this group, as
it's in the rules you are supposed to read.

Again, this is simply a reminder to the group that
this is not a teen chat board. We expect our posters
to be respectful and to make attempts to post as
intelligently as possible. The occaisional mistake is
no problem, and of course we make allowances for those
posters who are not posting in their native language.
Everyone else must make an attempt. If you
consistently can't spell the MAIN SUBJECT of this
forum, then you should be prepared not to be taken
seriously.

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--- jonathan ellgen <jpellgen@...> wrote:

> I recently purchased an excellent book called 'The
> Samurai Film' by Alain Silver. It was recently
> updated, and has some nice photographs as well.
> Although it cover many Japanese samurai films, it
> also deals with some western films.

That's the one I meant, I think. That should be a big
help to Foxfoil.

> I would also recommend the Akira Kurosawa
> documentary which can be found on DVD. No worries
> for non-Japanese speakers--it is done in English.
>
> You may also want to look into adaptations of
> Kurosawa movies which were mostly 'western' western
> films. For example... 'The Magnificent Seven.' I'm
> not sure it would fit into what you are trying to
> do, but it might be a unique angle.

That would be an interesting angle. Off the top of my
head, you could also discuss the Clint Eastwood movies
("For a Few Dollars More", "a Fist Full of Dollars",
"The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly") that were
adaptations of the Kurosawa "Yojimbo", "Sanjuro"
series. Also of interest would be Kuroawa's effect on
Star Wars, which I think Lucas talks about on the
Kurosawa DVD.



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--- foxfoil <foxfoil@...> wrote:

> Sorry for the lack of proper grammar and sentence
> structuring. I will make the effort from
> now on, no more suxing like a n00b. (a Simple :
> "watch you spelling!" would have been
> sufficient)

As I said, not trying to jump on you in
particular--your post just happened to be the one in
front of me. Thanks for not taking it personally and
feeling like you got pwn3d...that's teh suxors.

>
> Thank you for your quick response, I know that my
> post was a little vague but I just wanted
> to mention what I was doing. If people are
> interested, I will go into more detail of what
> research I have done and what arguments I plan to
> put forward, along with a progress report.

As Kitsuno said, definitely--a lot of people here will
be very interested. Some of us are here are very
concerned about the craptastic treatment Hollywood
gives movies (Please don't even bring up "Memoirs of a
Gaysha" (misspelling intentional).









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--- nohit@... wrote:

>
> Ooooh, don't get me started on this..... :<

I knew this one would bring you out :)

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--- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:

> There are a lot of great films out there, what is
> the cut off for
> "modern Hollywood film?" Is "Memoirs" included in
> your list? Would
> you include Black Rain? or Mr Baseball? or Gung-ho?
> None feature a
> man in 16th century armour but all feed the
> (mis-)conception.

Now, don't include Mr. Baseball--them's fightin'
words! Magnum P.I. meets the greatest baseball team in
Japan, the Chuunichi Dragons...it can't get any
better!




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nohit@... wrote:

>
>In the second place, a samurai was almost always born into the samurai class.
>In general, a person couldn't wake up and tell himself, "gee, I think I'd
>really like a career as a samurai, so I'll enroll in Samurai 101 at the Samurai
>University." Once in a while, a non-samurai could be married into a samurai
>family, usually as an adopted son. But for the most part, a samurai was born, not
>made.
>
>
>

Okay, this is something that is now confusing me. I thought that this
was only true when Toyotomi Hideyoshi turned Japan society into a caste
system (so that no one else could do what he did. ;-) ) and that before
that there was a lot more fluidity in the social classes. I know the
strict caste system is portrayed for Japan in almost all the "Japanese"
RPGs that are played these days. (The only exception I know of is
Legends of the Samurai, which to me is an excellent RPG).

Dan Cooper

--- Daniel Cooper <danielcooper@...> wrote:

> nohit@... wrote:
>
> >
> >In the second place, a samurai was almost always
> born into the samurai class.
> >In general, a person couldn't wake up and tell
> himself, "gee, I think I'd
> >really like a career as a samurai, so I'll enroll
> in Samurai 101 at the Samurai
> >University." Once in a while, a non-samurai could
> be married into a samurai
> >family, usually as an adopted son. But for the most
> part, a samurai was born, not
> >made.
> >
> >
> >
> Okay, this is something that is now confusing me. I
> thought that this
> was only true when Toyotomi Hideyoshi turned Japan
> society into a caste
> system (so that no one else could do what he did.
> ;-) ) and that before
> that there was a lot more fluidity in the social
> classes.

Correct, Dan--up until Hideyoshi's edicts, most
samurai of the lower and middle levels were also
involved in agriculture. The common term is
"Jizamurai", ’nŽ˜, indicating the samurai had a
connection with the land. These warrior-farmers could
include peasant farmers who only served as ashigaru
when called up, and returned to the rice paddies when
not at war, but mostly refer to samurai who owned
fields and may have been small plantation owners.

The strict division Nina mentions is largely an
Edo-period construct--prior to the edicts, there was
much more ambiguity, and the right combination of
opportunity and skill could lead a lower-class peasant
or merchant to not only become a samurai, but to
become a daimyo, a la Saito Dosan (a former oil
merchant) or Toyotomi Hideyoshi***. If these famous
cases exist, it's certainly likely that many more
people were able to transition from peasant to
lower-level warrior, ashigaru, etc.

That being said, we shouldn't assume that prior to the
Edo period you could, as Nina says, "enroll in Samurai
101" and become a samurai. It was definitely easier in
periods of national turmoil, such as the Sengoku
period, when anyone of skill would be utilized, and
could make a name for themselves (and then invent a
lineage later). You don't hear of too many situations
like Dosan and Hideyoshi in the Heian or Kamakura
periods, for example. This was due to many factors,
most of which changed during the Sengoku. Previously,
ashigaru weren't considered "samurai"--they were cheap
footsoldiers recruited from the peasantry to put
spears in the field, but weren't a professional or
even semi-professional fighting force. As the scale of
warfare grew, new weapons (guns, the longer spears
carried by ashigaru, etc.) and new tactics were
developed, and consequently you couldn't just round up
a bunch of farmers, give them spears, and send them
off to fight. While early guns didn't require as much
training as the sword or bow, they still required
training--and once trained, a daimyo isn't just going
to release his new ashigaru to their own devices.
Samurai combat became more and more an ashigaru
fight--led by upper level samurai, but the footsoldier
was vitally important to the success of Oda Nobunaga,
etc. As this importance was realized, ashigaru were
granted more status, gradually separated from their
farming duties (though warfare frequently stopped so
fields could be tended up into the 1570's), and
signing up as an ashigaru became a way to "get
noticed"--Hideyoshi's path to glory, along with many
who he brought up with him, started this way. As I
said before, in the period of civil war a good soldier
was a good soldier, regardless of his parentage, and
would be promoted and given leadership roles and
prestige if warranted.

At the end of the Sengoku, this need to utilize
talented people regardless of background ends.
Hideyoshi's edicts made the separation between the
classes, and recognized the ashigaru as the lowest
level of samurai. Those jizamurai who both fought and
farmed were forced to choose between the two
professions, and more chose farming than you would
think.

Also, even those who "rose from the masses" took great
pains to either hide or compensate for their humble
backgrounds. Hideyoshi had himself "adopted" by a
Fujiwara nobleman, to legitimize his position.

***It should be noted that the notion of Hideyoshi
beginning life as a vagabond peasant is mostly
romantic fiction. Research indicates his father was an
ashigaru under Oda Nobuhide, so while he may have
floated between classes early in his life (different
stories have him selling needles as an itinerant
merchant, farming, training as a priest, traveling
around for work as a stableboy, etc.), he had a
connection to the warrior class from the beginning.

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Fair enough.



--- Totok Sudarijanto <totok.sudarijanto@...>
wrote:

> I think laziness is not their excuse but mistype is.
> If you type samurai
> using ten fingers fast, sometimes you mistype samurai as samuria. :-)
> I sometimes do, but not in this group as I can recall.
> But if the poster type:
> "wat do u lik about teh samuria???", that's another case :-)

Spelling it "samuria" once--that's mistyping. That's understandable, we all
make mistakes.

Consistent mistakes in spelling, punctuation, capitalization, etc., is a
different matter. The moderators reserve the right to delete any posts we
see fit--you agree to that by joining this group, as it's in the rules you
are supposed to read.

Again, this is simply a reminder to the group that this is not a teen chat
board. We expect our posters to be respectful and to make attempts to post
as intelligently as possible. The occaisional mistake is no problem, and of
course we make allowances for those posters who are not posting in their
native language.
Everyone else must make an attempt. If you consistently can't spell the MAIN
SUBJECT of this forum, then you should be prepared not to be taken
seriously.

In a message dated 01/29/2006 7:48:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
danielcooper@... writes:

> >
> >In the second place, a samurai was almost always born into the samurai
> class.
> >In general, a person couldn't wake up and tell himself, "gee, I think I'd
> >really like a career as a samurai, so I'll enroll in Samurai 101 at the
> Samurai
> >University." Once in a while, a non-samurai could be married into a

samurai

>
> >family, usually as an adopted son. But for the most part, a samurai was
> born, not
> >made.
> >
> >
> >
> Okay, this is something that is now confusing me. I thought that this
> was only true when Toyotomi Hideyoshi turned Japan society into a caste
> system (so that no one else could do what he did. ;-) ) and that before
> that there was a lot more fluidity in the social classes. I know the
> strict caste system is portrayed for Japan in almost all the "Japanese"
> RPGs that are played these days. (The only exception I know of is
> Legends of the Samurai, which to me is an excellent RPG).
>

I think that, before Hideyoshi's famous "sword hunt" that many farmers were
armed with swords and other weapons. And also there was a class of people, I
believe they were called "Ji-samurai" or "farmer-samurai" who worked the fields
but also could fight in battles. Not sure, please anyone feel free to correct
me.

But definitely after Hideyoshi's "sword-hunt," a samurai was definitely born,
not made.

Nina

In a message dated 01/29/2006 9:14:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ltdomer98@... writes:

> The strict division Nina mentions is largely an
> Edo-period construct--prior to the edicts, there was
> much more ambiguity,

Wasn't there a period of time between Hideyoshi's sword-hunt and the start of
the Edo period? As I recall, the sword-hunt was in the 1590's but the
Tokugawa really didn't get into power for a couple of decades or so.

Nina

--- nohit@... wrote:

> I think that, before Hideyoshi's famous "sword hunt"
> that many farmers were
> armed with swords and other weapons. And also there
> was a class of people, I
> believe they were called "Ji-samurai" or
> "farmer-samurai" who worked the fields
> but also could fight in battles. Not sure, please
> anyone feel free to correct
> me.

See my post--you're close.

> But definitely after Hideyoshi's "sword-hunt," a
> samurai was definitely born,
> not made.

Agreed, 150%. While there *were* the *EXTREMELY RARE*
exception, 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the
time, post-1600 one had to be born into the samurai
class to be a samurai. That was the only requirement,
as well--behavioral codes, martial arts, etc. had
nothing to do with it.

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--- nohit@... wrote:

> ltdomer98@... writes:
>
> > The strict division Nina mentions is largely an
> > Edo-period construct--prior to the edicts, there
> was
> > much more ambiguity,
>
> Wasn't there a period of time between Hideyoshi's
> sword-hunt and the start of
> the Edo period? As I recall, the sword-hunt was in
> the 1590's but the
> Tokugawa really didn't get into power for a couple
> of decades or so.

The Edo period began in 1600 or 1603, depending on
whether you date from Sekigahara or the beginning of
the Tokugawa Shogunate. You're correct, the sword hunt
was in 1588--12 to 15 years earlier. However, it's not
like he gave the order and *poof* things were
solidified. Major social changes like this take a
little time to take effect. You could argue that up
through the Osaka campaign, it was possible to change
status through armed conflict--certainly enough
outside the establishment joined the Toyotomi cause in
order to make a name for themselves. The majority
would have been ronin, and you could say they were "in
the samurai class", but I hardly think they checked
for Samurai ID cards at the door.

I'll admit, I'm considering 12 years as an
insignificant stretch of time in the 1000 years of
samurai history. Especially in this case, the Sword
Hunt and the social concepts it heralded were direct
precursors to the social order of the Tokugawa period,
and not part of the Sengoku. Hideyoshi wasn't merely
before the Tokugawa, he set the stage for it. The idea
was there, the law was there, but it really only
became something solid after peace. People up unto the
1630's still had the institutional memory of the
previous social order--I don't think it's a
coincidence that the last major rebellion against the
Tokugawa, the Shimabara Rebellion, was a
commoner/lower-class samurai rebellion that took place
in the 1630's. Past this, anybody who had any memory
of commoners carrying weapons and partaking in combat
was dead--the rest accepted the status quo because
it's all they knew.

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"And also there was a class of people, I believe they were called
"Ji-samurai" or "farmer-samurai" who worked the fields but also could
fight in battles. Not sure, please anyone feel free to correct me."

I think that's about right. 'Samurai' status covered the richest to
the poorest, and many samurai were dirt poor, working alongside their
farmers in the fields if they wanted to eat.

Stories of early Tokugawa (Matsudaira) retainers tell of samurai
lining the rice field with sandals hung from the shafts of their
spears, and in one case a samurai covered himself in mud in the hope
that a 15-year-old Ieyasu might not recognise him, and how low he had
fallen.

Another of the era tell of a samurai who lost his Takeda 'castle' (not
much more than a stockade) when the land fell to Tokugawa. The
structure was burned down and he became an inn-keeper.

Of the same era are stories of peasants elevated in status at the whim
of the Shogun.

The situation grows even more complex if you look at Shikoku after
Sekigahara, when it was ruled that samurai must be attached to the
castle, any farmer must therefore surrender his samurai status. This
was a move to stop rebellion, by making the samurai absolutely
dependent upon the bakafu for their survival. It reintroduced the
'goshi' - a gentleman farmer who might well be richer than his samurai
neighbour (and better skilled in the carriage of arms).

In fact the Shikoku goshi was closer to the original samurai than his
Edo counterpart, who became more and more a time-serving bureaucrat,
and one might say the mantle of most of what people think of as
samurai passed to him. Certainly the Tosa swordsmen (of whom Ryoma was
one) kept the classical arts of the warrior very much alive and 'real'
as opposed to the artificiality that was creeping into the
professional Edo dojo.

"But definitely after Hideyoshi's "sword-hunt," a samurai was
definitely born, not made."
That was the rule, but I think at the time it was hard to enforce -
and of course was at the whim of whoever was in charge. Hideyoshi
himself 'elevated' commoners to samurai - Kato Kiyomasa was the son of
a blacksmith. So did Ieyasu after him.

Certainly post-Edo it was the case.

I think basically the rule was not made to protect or preserve samurai
status, but as a means of social control and restraint.

Thomas