Home - Back

Japanese Tents

- [Previous Topic] [Next Topic]
#8008 [2005-11-22 15:39:13]

Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

Hello,

I'm a new member of this website. I'm looking for pictures of what
the tents looked like during the Muromachi Period. Can anyone out
there provide me with websites or films that I can go to which will
show me what samurai and lords stayed in while on campaign or
traveling.

Thanks

[Next #8010]

#8010 [2005-11-22 18:22:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] Japanese Tents

by klperron

I am also new and very hopeful that someone could point to a primary
source showing any tent suitable for reenactment. I was just afraid
to ask. Thank you ,,,chiyo


On Nov 22, 2005, at 6:39 PM, kuroi_uma_samurai wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm a new member of this website. I'm looking for pictures of what
> the tents looked like during the Muromachi Period. Can anyone out
> there provide me with websites or films that I can go to which will
> show me what samurai and lords stayed in while on campaign or
> traveling.
>
> Thanks
>

[Previous #8008] [Next #8011]

#8011 [2005-11-22 20:52:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Japanese Tents

by ltdomer98

If you haven't been there already, go here:

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/miscellany.html

Check out the "Japanese Camps" and "Camp Curtains"
sections.

Unfortunately, not many movies about the Muromachi
period are available outside of Japan--it's not a
period that holds a lot of fascination for foreigners,
it seems. Can't imagine why not, but alas. That said,
I don't think things changed significantly before,
during, or after the Muromachi. Most of your movies
focusing on either the Sengoku-Jidai (tail end of the
Muromachi anyways) or even as far back as the Gempei
War would be worth checking out to get ideas and feel.
'Ran', 'Kagemusha', 'Fuurin Kazan' (in the States as
'Samurai Banners'), etc. all have scenes that take
place in military camps. The best visual
representation would likely be in Taiga drama--1996's
Hideyoshi, for example, probably has one or two camp
scenes per episode. 1997's Mori Motonari, 1990(?)
Nobunaga, King of Zipangu, or the Tokugawai Aoi Sandai
or Toshiie to Matsu (forget the years) would all be
fairly recent ones that should have many many scenes
that would help to give you an idea.

If there is a Japanese food store or market near you,
they may have video rentals (I watched half of Toshiie
to Matsu's 50 episodes in 2 weeks when I was in Kansas
City for business one time) where you can find these.




--- kuroi_uma_samurai <kuroi_uma_samurai@...>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm a new member of this website. I'm looking for
> pictures of what
> the tents looked like during the Muromachi Period.
> Can anyone out
> there provide me with websites or films that I can
> go to which will
> show me what samurai and lords stayed in while on
> campaign or
> traveling.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
>





__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Previous #8010] [Next #8027]

#8027 [2005-11-25 04:46:36]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

Thanks Nate,

I went to the website you recommended. Anthony Bryant has obviously
done a lot of research. Unfortunately, his site doesn't give any
pictures.

I sat through "Ran" on Wewdensday night. Though the openeing scenes
have an encampmnet surrounded by beautiful jinmaku (camp curtains),
there was never a tent shown. According to Mr Bryant, they usually
took over some neighboring Temple or hous to sleep in.

I would think that they would also have tents of some sort. I'll
keep lookking, but I would appreciate any other "leads" or information
that anyone out there might be able to provide.


Domo Arigato

Michael

[Previous #8011] [Next #8032]

#8032 [2005-11-25 17:08:34]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by ltdomer98

--- kuroi_uma_samurai <kuroi_uma_samurai@...>
wrote:


> I sat through "Ran" on Wewdensday night. Though
> the openeing scenes
> have an encampmnet surrounded by beautiful jinmaku
> (camp curtains),
> there was never a tent shown. According to Mr
> Bryant, they usually
> took over some neighboring Temple or hous to sleep
> in.
>
> I would think that they would also have tents of
> some sort.

If they took over a temple, why would they need a
tent? If you're recreating a footsoldier, then likely
they had tents--anybody important would have
commandeered a temple or someone else's house, just
like Tony says.




__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/

[Previous #8027] [Next #8038]

#8038 [2005-11-25 17:30:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by sengokudaimyo

kuroi_uma_samurai wrote:

> Thanks Nate,
>
> I went to the website you recommended. Anthony Bryant has obviously
> done a lot of research. Unfortunately, his site doesn't give any
> pictures.
>

I think you missed the page specifically on TENTS...


Tony

[Previous #8032] [Next #8040]

#8040 [2005-11-26 02:58:20]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

Tony,

I would like to thank you for placing this information on the
web. You obviously know what you're talking about and have done a
lot of research.

You're right. I did miss the site specifically meant
for "TENTS". Don't know how that happened, but I'm glad you pointed
it out to me. This is exactly what I needed.

It's been years since I've watched "Shogun". It's probably time
I sit through it again. (As well as make the young men in my
household, who want to do Samurai persona, do the same.)

One quick question for you...You suggest that, historically, the
Japanese probably used wooden supports for the awning. I intend to
use a garage canopy - as you suggested - due to costs, safety, and
structural integrity. Do you think that covering the piping with
bamboo would be "period".

Michael

[Previous #8038] [Next #8041]

#8041 [2005-11-26 02:45:44]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

The problem is finding that house or temple to take over at a
particular event. Usually the locals aren't to keen to just let you
move in for the weekend even if you do have a 27 inch long razor sharp
katana.

Seriously, I belong to a Medieval Group that tries to recreate periods
in history. Since we do a lot of pubic demonstrations and have to
answer questions from the general public, we're expected to be as
historically accurate as we can and to be able to answer questions.

I've decided trying to recreate a late Muromachi Period encampament and
need to make it look as realistic as possible (cost and safety will
also be factors)

As for the common foot soldier. I'd bet he found just about anyplace
he could find which most of the time meant sleeping on the ground in
the open. (Like foot soldiers all over the world in any time period).
At my point in life, that's not really an option I prefer... ;-)

Michael

[Previous #8040] [Next #8042]

#8042 [2005-11-26 10:07:34]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by sengokudaimyo

kuroi_uma_samurai wrote:

> Tony,
>
> I would like to thank you for placing this information on the
> web. You obviously know what you're talking about and have done a
> lot of research.

It keeps me off the streets. (But I *like* the streets... )

>
> You're right. I did miss the site specifically meant
> for "TENTS". Don't know how that happened, but I'm glad you pointed
> it out to me. This is exactly what I needed.
>
Thought so.

>
> One quick question for you...You suggest that, historically, the
> Japanese probably used wooden supports for the awning. I intend to
> use a garage canopy - as you suggested - due to costs, safety, and
> structural integrity. Do you think that covering the piping with
> bamboo would be "period".
>
Not really. It might look "better" but the real things had serious,
solid wooden supports -- somewhere in the area of 2x4s -- and simple
bamboo wouldn't hold up something like that. So it's one of those
cosmetic decisions. What I'd do, if you were using an aluminum carport
model, is to encase the poles in adhesive wood-pattern shelf "paper".

Tony

[Previous #8041] [Next #8052]

#8052 [2005-11-29 15:52:51]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

Tony You replied...
> Not really. It might look "better" but the real things had serious,
> solid wooden supports -- somewhere in the area of 2x4s -- and simple
> bamboo wouldn't hold up something like that. So it's one of those
> cosmetic decisions. What I'd do, if you were using an aluminum
carport > model, is to encase the poles in adhesive wood-pattern
shelf "paper".

Ggreat idea. Thanks for the input. IF I get this done, I'll send
pics - if you're interested...

Mike
>

>

[Previous #8042] [Next #8053]

#8053 [2005-11-30 20:45:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by sengokudaimyo

kuroi_uma_samurai wrote:

>
> Tony You replied...
> > Not really. It might look "better" but the real things had serious,
> > solid wooden supports -- somewhere in the area of 2x4s -- and simple
> > bamboo wouldn't hold up something like that. So it's one of those
> > cosmetic decisions. What I'd do, if you were using an aluminum
> carport > model, is to encase the poles in adhesive wood-pattern
> shelf "paper".
>
> Ggreat idea. Thanks for the input. IF I get this done, I'll send
> pics - if you're interested...

Oh, HECK yeah.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

All sorts of cool things Japanese and SCA:
http://www.cafepress.com/sengokudaimyo

[Previous #8052] [Next #8055]

#8055 [2005-12-01 15:58:00]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by drnostrand

Hi.

> As for the common foot soldier.  I'd bet he found just about anyplace
> he could find which most of the time meant sleeping on the ground in
> the open.  (Like foot soldiers all over the world in any time
> period). 
> At my point in life, that's not really an option I prefer...  ;-)

As Anthony might say, "bingo!". They may have huddled under a tate, but
that is about it. If you were sufficiently rich and there were no
temples near by, then you would have slept either in your palenquin or
in a panelized hut set up for the evening by your servants. Hideyoshi
is famous for among other things having a golden tea hut dragged all
over Japan to better impress the locals with his wealth and neuvo
culture.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #8053] [Next #8056]

#8056 [2005-12-01 15:53:38]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by drnostrand

Hi.

Please understand that there is no evidence (at least that I know of)
that akunoya were used for anything other than garden parties. Most
especially, people did not sleep in them. And even more especially,
there is little evidence that they were taken to battles. The Japanese
had panelized wooden houses and other buildings which were at times
moved from one place to another.

As for carports. I understand the allure of using carports. However,
you should probably come up with simple box beam type posts to enclose
the aluminium poles. Covering them with wood grain contact paper does
little to disguise their essential wrongness.j Another problem with
carport construction is that the vertical supports may not really be in
the right places to replicate what we know of akunoya from iconographic
evidence.

If you are more industrious, why not buy lumber and make the frame
yourself?

[Previous #8055] [Next #8066]

#8066 [2005-12-02 20:25:56]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

Hi Barbara,
>
> Please understand that there is no evidence (at least that I know
of) that akunoya were used for anything other than garden parties.
Most especially, people did not sleep in them. And even more
especially, there is little evidence that they were taken to battles.
The Japanese had panelized wooden houses and other buildings which
were at times moved from one place to another.
>

You are right. There is very little evidence of the use of Japanese
using tents at all - one way or the other - either in books, or
scrolls or T.V or film. However, I find it somewhat hard to believe
that they "never" slept in their tents or take them to use
as "command posts". In my years of studying history from various
parts of the world, I've found that just because there
isn't "evidence" that a particular thing was done, it more often than
not doesn't mean that it wasn't done either. It has also been very
interesting to note that things that were spouted as "fact" twenty
years ago, are sometimes proven to be "fiction". It's one of the
reasons why I LOVE history!

I belong to a group of historical enthusiasts...Not the SCA....and I
intend to set up a Japanese Feudal Age encampment that is as accurate
as possible. (I will probably start out small, and expand as i go.) I
and the other members in my household, need a place out of the sun
and weather (since where I live is humid and rainy in the summer -
kind of like Japan.). I also need a place that will allow me to
protect weaponry and yoroi (as well as hide other non-historical
period stuff like cots and sleeping bags when necessary.) from prying
eyes, inquistive hands and those same weather elements.

Lastly, when the public comes through the encampment, I want them to
say "oooh!" and "Ahhhh!". When they ask questions, they'll get the
information like you just gave me regarding the use of the akunoya.
When they leave for the day, and the site closes down to the public,
I need a place to lay my head and prepare for the next day. Though
perhaps historically inaccurate, I'll probably be sleeping in the
akunoya out of convenience and neccessity. (I don't think the local
Baptist church would take kindly to my riding up in full yoroi and
kicking them out so I have a place for me and my samurai to stay ;-
) )

> As for carports. I understand the allure of using carports.
However, you should probably come up with simple box beam type posts
to enclose the aluminium poles. Covering them with wood grain contact
paper does little to disguise their essential wrongness.j Another
problem with carport construction is that the vertical supports may
not really be in the right places to replicate what we know of
akunoya from iconographic evidence. If you are more industrious, why
not buy lumber and make the frame yourself?

>
I agree with you - in principle - that using a carport is not very
palatable. Unfortunately, we have to live in today's day and age and
I have to be concerned with ease of set up and take down,
transportability, structural integrity and safety. Though I like the
idea of using real lumber for the framework, I don't have the luxury
of having a team of skilled Japanese carpenters who can produce
historically accurate joinery or the desire to transport the weight
of the frame work alone. (The truck I use to transport my encampment
will only hold so much in both cubic space and in weight and I don't
even want to go into the logistical challenges that are added when I
bring the horses and all of their accoutrements.)

Rest assured, that I will do a very good job of "covering" the poles
and they will look just like wood (from far away). I was originally
thinking of using bamboo to cover the metal poles. (I have alot of it
available and could hollow it out to cover the poles.) BUT Tony said
that was definitely "out" so I'm thinking of other ways to cover the
poles to make them look like "wood framing".

I'll also look closely at the spacing of the vertical supports that
hold up the top. (Along with the correct width of the fabric.)

I was hoping to have discussions like this and welcome your insight
and experience. If you have any pictures or drawings of what that
joinery looked like, I'd appreciate it. If you have access to book
titles so I have research documentation to support my endeavors,
that's even better. Anything that will add to the great information
available on Tony's site would be helpful.

Mike

[Previous #8056] [Next #8076]

#8076 [2005-12-09 08:21:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] Japanese Tents

by drnostrand

Hi.

Quite apart from images of akunoya from the TV mini-series "Shougun".
you should understand that these things generally show up in paintings
and prints depicting garden parties. I have seen a bunch of these
pictures and a bunch of battle paintings and prints, and that is the
only place that akunoya have shown up in any of them. Recently, someone
else found a depiction of a shelter which supposably could be set up by
ashigari. I you rumage around over on tosandou you should be able to
find it, Even this is a bit problematic as they are generally not
depicted.

[Previous #8066] [Next #8078]

#8078 [2005-12-10 15:09:26]

Re: [samuraihistory] Japanese Tents

by drnostrand

Hi.

Do a web search on "akunoya" and you will probably find something.
However, do not expect to find "Japanese Tents" particularly suitable
for what you probably intend. The akunoya is the most commodious
alternative, but I know of no evidence supporting the notion that
people made a habit of sleeping in the things. There are a couple of
shelter alternatives which may have been used by some ashigari on
campaign, but I doubt that you will want to actually use one of these.
They appear to be essentially a low roughly tubular structure of bent
bamboo lashed together with mino (straw rain capes) thrown over and
maybe a bit of matting unrolled on the ground inside. Some Japanese
books on sengoku jidai campaigns suggest that low ranking bushi may
have huddled under tate (large shields) or even in holes dug into
embankments. If you had rank, then you took over a neighboring temple
or something like that. There are also some suggestions of nagaya being
set up for some of the troops.

[Previous #8076] [Next #8084]

#8084 [2005-12-12 15:41:33]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Nostrand
wrote:
Barbara,

Great! A Japanese Garden Party. Sounds like fun! Thanks for the
lead.

Mike

[Previous #8078] [Next #8114]

#8114 [2005-12-16 19:17:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by drnostrand

Hi.

I'm afraid that carport poles really do not pass the man on a galloping
horse test even when covered with contact paper. My family used to camp
in a WW-II army surplus army command tent. We only had a 49 Ford at the
time. The army tent had wooden poles. You can deal with wooden poles
too.

[Previous #8084] [Next #8144]

#8144 [2005-12-24 07:05:12]

Re: Japanese Tents

by kuroi_uma_samurai

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Barbara Nostrand
wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm afraid that carport poles really do not pass the man on a
galloping
> horse test even when covered with contact paper. My family used to
camp
> in a WW-II army surplus army command tent. We only had a 49 Ford at
the
> time. The army tent had wooden poles. You can deal with wooden
poles
> too.
>

I NEVER intended to cover the poles with contact paper. (that would
just look "tacky". I intended to "replace" them or cover them with
bamboo (By hollowing out the bamboo pole and placing the metal
carport pole inside the bamboo shell.) However, Tony said that was
inappropriate.

your idea of Army Surplus tent poles is a good one. (I wish I had
thought of it since I remember putting those monstrosities up
myself.) any idea wheer I can find some or BETTER yet, know where I
can actually purchsea "real" akunoya?

[Previous #8114] [Next #8160]

#8160 [2005-12-31 11:13:33]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Tents

by drnostrand

Hi.

Becoming a hermit is not particularly tragic in Japan. It has been
viewed as virtuous since at least the Heian period. Frequently, the
tragedy occurs before becoming a hermit, but that does not make
actually being a hermit particularly tragic. Now then, there are some
famous persecuted Buddhist monks, but that is another matter. And,
these folks are also often heroes. Now being an exile is another
matter. Heike Monogatari can get positively wheepy about exiles.

[Previous #8144]


Made with