Re: "Western" or not? (was Re: What can we define as the bes...

Discussing AFTER THE RAIN

Nice post! Raises some very unigue questions. Sadly they still apply
today.. I wil have to sehck into both of these Films.. Recently I watched with
my son. Twightlight Samuria.. I enjoyed it; but always seem as though
Japanese films have to end in traggicly.

I wold like to raise two qestion if I may.. First there was a post
earlier; Loyalty to Bushido; what does that mean. and Secondly. who are the
modern day Samurai?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, seikei7248@a... wrote:

>
> Secondly. who are the
> modern day Samurai?

There are none. A small minority of martial artists - usually teenage
boys - who have no real knowledge of either modern Japan or Japanese
history who saw 'Ghost Dog' and 'Last Samurai' and who think that by
reading Hagakure that they are philosophical scholar warriors, and
call themselves "modern Samurai". They are always westerners, never
Japanese. The Japanese know better.

Good afternoon.

I do agree in a 100% with you about this.
I think we perhaps can find a modern samurai in a
secluded zen monk who everyday practice what we now
call traditional martial arts, Iai-do, Kendo, Judo,
Kyudo and the more modern of all aikido. But just
the characther do means that those arts are non
martial. Besides,I think that nowdays is very hard
if not imposible to find an individual who really
lives the concept of Bushido as a samurai will do.
Specially because I do not think that Bushido lives
nowdays as it lived 200 or 300 years ago. I do not
want to say if this is sad or not here, but this
happens just because it is insane to compare Japan now
with the Japan of 300 years ago. Perhaps japanese
could think in the same way, but want keeps them
rolling and living now is simply different than the
circumstances of 300 years ago.
And please notice that I am talking about japanese
people, that is because we supouse that they now more
about this form of life than anyone else.
So now what can we say about western people.
I want to put you an exemple : Remember this poet
Mishima ? Well, he commit seppuku because he think
that the Japan he was living in was dishonorable since
it has adopted western culture. How did japanese
people, even his collegues in arms, reacted to this ?
A scandal... but what could be the reaction in 1870
japanese people?

Best regards.

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Good afternoon.
I think its very hard to be 100% acurate in following
Bushido those days, therefore I dont think we may find
a modern samurai as we may know them.
There was a samurai, unfortunelly I dont recall his
name right now, who said : All is vanity.
Think about this a little bit, and add the kind of
life we live nowdays. With all this massive
communications systems... yes, all is vanity.
Best regards.

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, federico trejos
wrote:

> I want to put you an exemple : Remember this poet
> Mishima ? Well, he commit seppuku because he think
> that the Japan he was living in was dishonorable since
> it has adopted western culture. How did japanese
> people, even his collegues in arms, reacted to this ?
> A scandal...

I think the fact that he was a repressed homosexual who in his own
insane way wanted his writings to become famous through his choice of
death had more to do with it. You could even theorize that he had a
life long inferiority complex that contributed to it.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, federico trejos
> wrote:
>
> > I want to put you an exemple : Remember this poet
> > Mishima ? Well, he commit seppuku because he think
> > that the Japan he was living in was dishonorable since
> > it has adopted western culture. How did japanese
> > people, even his collegues in arms, reacted to this ?
> > A scandal...
>
> I think the fact that he was a repressed homosexual who in his own
> insane way wanted his writings to become famous through his choice

of

> death had more to do with it. You could even theorize that he had

a

> life long inferiority complex that contributed to it.
>

And before anyone accuses me of saying "he did it because he was
gay", to clarify I meant that he never came to terms with it, and
that caused him lifelong torment. There are some really good
biographies out there of him, I recommend them. He was an
interesting person.

--- federico trejos <federicotrejos@...> wrote:

> Good afternoon.
>
> I do agree in a 100% with you about this.
> I think we perhaps can find a modern samurai in a
> secluded zen monk

Wouldn't a modern Samurai be a professional soldier?

Rick

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Sensei J. Richard Kirkham
B.Sc" wrote:

>
>
>
> --- federico trejos wrote:
>
> > Good afternoon.
> >
> > I do agree in a 100% with you about this.
> > I think we perhaps can find a modern samurai in a
> > secluded zen monk
>
>
> Wouldn't a modern Samurai be a professional soldier?
>
> Rick
>

While we are at it, what would a modern knight of the round table
be? What would a modern centurion be? What would a modern hoplite
be? Am I the only one that finds this entire line of thought
illogical?

" and Secondly. who are the modern day Samurai?"


Are there those who claim to be? Yes. Are there descendents of Samurai
families? Yes. Are there those who live thier lives in what they perceive to
be the samurai tradition? Certainly, but there are
*NO* modern day samurai. The samurai were a defined class. When that class
was abolished, the samurai ceased to exist.

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The samurai were a defined

> class. When that class
> was abolished, the samurai ceased to exist.

So your defining it by class not by duty. If that's
the case you are correct

Rick

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>
> While we are at it, what would a modern knight of
> the round table
> be? What would a modern centurion be? What would a
> modern hoplite
> be? Am I the only one that finds this entire line
> of thought
> illogical?

well samurai and knights were all soldiers. We still,
unfortuneately, have a need for them. Not illogical
but possible not thought out to it's conclusion.
Looking for a mideval (sp) relic instead of the actual
modern version (i.e. military) I believe is what the
poster had in mind, but let's keep in mind that later
on in samurai history guns had an important role in
battles so the poster would have to look into earlier
samurai history

Rick

9-17-2005 ADDED More Books and Videos. Feel F.ree to Add Yours
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/files/MartialArtsSoftware/

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--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> I think the fact that he was a repressed homosexual
> who in his own
> insane way wanted his writings to become famous
> through his choice of
> death had more to do with it. You could even
> theorize that he had a
> life long inferiority complex that contributed to
> it.

Not to mention that whole "burning down the Kinkakuji"
thing had already been done...



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--- "Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc"
<tutor2000@...> wrote:

> The samurai were a defined
> > class. When that class
> > was abolished, the samurai ceased to exist.
>
> So your defining it by class not by duty. If that's
> the case you are correct

There's no other way to define it--that's what it WAS.
Someone who performs a similar role in today's society
may be compared to a samurai, but that doesn't MAKE
them one. I interact daily with Japanese Ground
Self-Defense Force officers--while they are proud of
their samurai history, they don't even call THEMSELVES
samurai.

Samurai no longer exist. Haven't since the 1870's. End
of Story.



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Kitsuno wrote:

>
> While we are at it, what would a modern knight of the round table
> be? What would a modern centurion be? What would a modern hoplite
> be? Am I the only one that finds this entire line of thought
> illogical?

Nope. And you're using the *polite* word for what I'm thinking.



Tony

Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc wrote:

> The samurai were a defined
> > class. When that class
> > was abolished, the samurai ceased to exist.
>
> So your defining it by class not by duty. If that's
> the case you are correct
>

Well, Rick, sorry, but that is the only way TO define it. There were
other people who fought, but weren't samurai. There were samurai who
never fought.

Samurai were an elite SOCIAL CASTE. That caste was abolished. End of
frikkin' story.

Tony

Anthony Bryant wrote:

> Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc wrote:
>
> > The samurai were a defined
> > > class. When that class
> > > was abolished, the samurai ceased to exist.
> >
> > So your defining it by class not by duty. If that's
> > the case you are correct
> >
>
> Well, Rick, sorry, but that is the only way TO define it. There were
> other people who fought, but weren't samurai. There were samurai who
> never fought.
>
> Samurai were an elite SOCIAL CASTE. That caste was abolished. End of
> frikkin' story.

Strange, I thought before the 1580's, Samurai was a social class, not caste.

Dan Cooper

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Sensei J. Richard Kirkham
B.Sc" wrote:

>
> The samurai were a defined
> > class. When that class
> > was abolished, the samurai ceased to exist.
>
> So your defining it by class not by duty. If that's
> the case you are correct
>

How do you define a knight of the round table? Same idea - anyone
claiming to be a knight of the round table is an idiot. Ergo... it
doesn't matter HOW you define it, that doesn't change the fact that
the concept is RETARDED.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Cooper
wrote:

>
> Strange, I thought before the 1580's, Samurai was a social class,

not caste.

>

Not much of a difference there.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Sensei J. Richard Kirkham
B.Sc" wrote:

>
>
> >
> > While we are at it, what would a modern knight of
> > the round table
> > be? What would a modern centurion be? What would a
> > modern hoplite
> > be? Am I the only one that finds this entire line
> > of thought
> > illogical?
>
> well samurai and knights were all soldiers. We still,
> unfortuneately, have a need for them. Not illogical
> but possible not thought out to it's conclusion.
> Looking for a mideval (sp) relic instead of the actual
> modern version (i.e. military) I believe is what the
> poster had in mind, but let's keep in mind that later
> on in samurai history guns had an important role in
> battles so the poster would have to look into earlier
> samurai history
>

Let's put it this way:

"Samurai were all soldiers. Therefore all soldiers are Samurai."
"Samurai followed Bushido. I follow Bushido. Therefore, I am a
Samurai."

NO. NO. NO. Those are what you call a logical fallacy, and pathetic
ones at that. Ideals don't make one a Samurai, carrying swords
doesn't make one a Samurai, being in the military most definately
does not make one a Samurai - over 100 years ago, you were born into
it, a few hundred before that, you could work your way into it.
None of that is valid anymore, the class, title, rank, and meaning
is all gone, and anyone claiming to be a 'modern Samurai' is
retarded. They watched Ghost Dog and other propaganda, and
said, "I'm gonna be like a Sammyrai". Why doesn't anyone grasp the
concept that saying "I'm a modern Samurai" is IDENTICAL to
saying "I'm a Modern hoplite!" "I'm a modern caveman!" "I'm a modern
egyptian sword guard!" "I'm a modern Centurion" "I'm a modern knight
of the templar!" Why is it that people can say something as inane
and stupid as "I'm a modern Samurai" and get away with it? It is
pathetic. Just face reality and say "I am a dork who reads the
hagakure and acts all philosophical to justify to myself why I'm
still a virgin". This STUPID topic comes up at least twice a year,
arguing semantics is a terrible waste of time, and it gets more
aggrivating each time I see it.

Kitsuno wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Cooper
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Strange, I thought before the 1580's, Samurai was a social class,
> not caste.
> >
>
> Not much of a difference there.
>
>

Big difference. You can change social class, you can not change social
caste. After all, this list is all about splitting hairs about the
meaning of words.

Dan Cooper

> This STUPID topic comes up at least twice a year,
>arguing semantics is a terrible waste of time, and it gets more
>aggrivating each time I see it.
>

Unfortunately, yes.

Well, maybe just to save time, just let's accept this crap. Let's
everydoby tell he is a samurai if it thinks so. Let's say the same thing
too.
Myself, I see myself as a modern dinosaur. Well I can promise anybody
here I perfectly follow the same duty code, I am pretty good at doing
nothing, just eating stuff and waiting for my own extinction or
reincarnation in a theme park on some desert island.
So I am a modern dinosaur. So cool :)

What about you ? What you guys will be?





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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Cooper
wrote:

>
> Kitsuno wrote:
>
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Cooper
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Strange, I thought before the 1580's, Samurai was a social

class,

> > not caste.
> > >
> >
> > Not much of a difference there.
> >
> >
> Big difference. You can change social class, you can not change

social

> caste.
>

Good enough point. Since it is niether now, it is a moot point
though.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Larre
wrote:

>
>
> > This STUPID topic comes up at least twice a year,
> >arguing semantics is a terrible waste of time, and it gets more
> >aggrivating each time I see it.
> >
> Unfortunately, yes.
>
> Well, maybe just to save time, just let's accept this crap. Let's
> everydoby tell he is a samurai if it thinks so. Let's say the same

thing

> too.
> Myself, I see myself as a modern dinosaur. Well I can promise

anybody

> here I perfectly follow the same duty code, I am pretty good at

doing

> nothing, just eating stuff and waiting for my own extinction or
> reincarnation in a theme park on some desert island.
> So I am a modern dinosaur. So cool :)
>
> What about you ? What you guys will be?
>

Sounds good to me - everyone is entitled to thier own fantasies
after all. I'll modify the start page of this yahoo group
accordingly.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Larre
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > This STUPID topic comes up at least twice a year,
> > >arguing semantics is a terrible waste of time, and it gets more
> > >aggrivating each time I see it.
> > >
> > Unfortunately, yes.
> >
> > Well, maybe just to save time, just let's accept this crap.

Let's

> > everydoby tell he is a samurai if it thinks so. Let's say the

same

> thing
> > too.
> > Myself, I see myself as a modern dinosaur. Well I can promise
> anybody
> > here I perfectly follow the same duty code, I am pretty good at
> doing
> > nothing, just eating stuff and waiting for my own extinction or
> > reincarnation in a theme park on some desert island.
> > So I am a modern dinosaur. So cool :)
> >
> > What about you ? What you guys will be?
> >
>
> Sounds good to me - everyone is entitled to thier own fantasies
> after all. I'll modify the start page of this yahoo group
> accordingly.
>

From this point on, if anyone wants to debate whether or not you can
be a "modern Samurai" JOIN THIS GROUP:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/japantoday/
That is what it is there for. That group is for any and every
subject about Japan or involves Japan in any way that is not covered
here in this group.

Thanks.

Yes but was the velicoraptor really a social class? I mean surely being a T-rex is more in tune with modern days classes and social standings....

We have gone way of topic, there are no more samurai, that class and the feudal way has gone, so let's get back on track as soon as possible
Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote:
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Jerome Larre
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > This STUPID topic comes up at least twice a year,
> > >arguing semantics is a terrible waste of time, and it gets more
> > >aggrivating each time I see it.
> > >
> > Unfortunately, yes.
> >
> > Well, maybe just to save time, just let's accept this crap.

Let's

> > everydoby tell he is a samurai if it thinks so. Let's say the

same

> thing
> > too.
> > Myself, I see myself as a modern dinosaur. Well I can promise
> anybody
> > here I perfectly follow the same duty code, I am pretty good at
> doing
> > nothing, just eating stuff and waiting for my own extinction or
> > reincarnation in a theme park on some desert island.
> > So I am a modern dinosaur. So cool :)
> >
> > What about you ? What you guys will be?
> >
>
> Sounds good to me - everyone is entitled to thier own fantasies
> after all. I'll modify the start page of this yahoo group
> accordingly.
>

From this point on, if anyone wants to debate whether or not you can
be a "modern Samurai" JOIN THIS GROUP:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/japantoday/
That is what it is there for. That group is for any and every
subject about Japan or involves Japan in any way that is not covered
here in this group.

Thanks.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 10/08/2005 10:05:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
samurai-listowner@... writes:

>
> Sounds good to me - everyone is entitled to thier own fantasies
> after all. I'll modify the start page of this yahoo group
> accordingly.

GREAT!!! I can be a modern Siamese cat!!!

Ooops, my own cat does a better job at that then I ever could. Oh well.....
:) :)

Nina

I might make an exception to the modern caveman arguement, I have seen
quite a few lately;-)

Why doesn't anyone grasp the

> concept that saying "I'm a modern Samurai" is IDENTICAL to
> saying "I'm a Modern hoplite!" "I'm a modern caveman!" "I'm a modern
> egyptian sword guard!" "I'm a modern Centurion" "I'm a modern knight
> of the templar!" Why is it that people can say something as inane
> and stupid as "I'm a modern Samurai" and get away with it?

In a message dated 10/8/2005 7:05:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
samurai-listowner@... writes:
This STUPID topic comes up at least twice a year,

> >arguing semantics is a terrible waste of time, and it gets more
> >aggrivating each time I see it

Laughing!


Well I for one feel that if someone wants to believe they are Samuria;
then my thinking is if that is the worse thing that someone could do with thier
life; that would be a good thing. There are bigger fish to fry. So I am
seeing conflicting opinions. That is good; makes the world more interesting. So!
My feeling on this that no one is wrong and no one is right. Just a matter
of preference.

I enjoy the forum and like the information that is learned here and
everyone makes very good points for there reason for thinking in that direction. But
hmm wondering if we are beating a dead horse. here.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim Hathaway wrote:

> I might make an exception to the modern caveman arguement, I have seen
> quite a few lately;-)
>

Say, is this my old bud Jim from TSR?

Tony