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Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

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#7530 [2005-08-31 08:49:39]

Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by ninaboal21044

That's my favorite, and I watch it all the time. I just got the new
Criterion release and it's great, with all the interviews in it.

However, now I do want to get into some actual history. Concerning the Ii
clan. I know that they wore red armor and that there is a story about them
from their earlier days of glory. Apparently, during one of the battles
(forget which one), one of their generals stationed some strong men at the
rear, to prevent anyone from deserting even in the midst of a hard-fought
battle. Some stern stuff here.

***SPOILER ALERT for those who haven't yet seen the film and don't wish to
know what happens.

As I was watching SEPPUKU (the western title is "Hara Kiri"). In the course
of the film, a ragged, destitute ronin shows up at the gate of the Ii clan's
Edo headquarters, presumably to request a place to commit seppuku so that he
no longer would have to live in dire poverty. But in reality, he is in
desperate need for money to get a doctor for his sick child, so he is making
this request in the hope that the Ii clan members will feel sorry for him.
That they will give him money to go away -- and with the money, he can get
aid for his sick son.

Instead, the Ii clan members insist that he actually commit seppuku. The
ronin is so destitute that he has pawned his swords and is wearing blades of
bamboo. When the clan members find this out, they are outraged and decide to
force him to commit seppuku with his own bamboo wakizashi. Which he does in
great agony. Later on, his father-in-law (Nakadai) seeks to avenge this
death and people can watch the film to see what happens.

But in actual history: I was wondering: during the 17th century, did the
historical Ii clan actually have any tendencies toward the type of sadism
that the film shows them to have? According to the film, the bamboo seppuku
was a matter of public record (the revenge for this is what is covered up by
the clan officials). It was considered to be an appropriate punishment for
a begging ronin who came to request seppuku but had sold his blades ("the
soul of the samurai"), so he only had blades of bamboo.

I've heard vaguely from a few others that there was a real history of
destitute ronin appearing at clan gates to presumably request a spot for
seppuku -- but who actually wanted "go away" money. Is there any history of
anyone ever being forced to commit seppuku with a bamboo blade? Was the Ii
clan ever involved in any of this sort of thing?

Or did the novelist Takiguchi Yasuhiko, who wrote the original story
SEPPUKU, make up all of this out of thin air and his fertile imagination? If
Takiguchi made up all of this, why would he use a real clan, the Ii clan,
for his scenario? Why not use a fictional clan?

Just curious. Thanks, Nina Boal
_____


From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Randy Schadel
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 12:32 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies

[snips]

Hara Kiri-the best of the noble ronin films, the 2 ½ hrs just fly
by. Riveting performances and a completely believable story. You'll
be hating the Ii clan after seeing this.


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[Next #7559]

#7559 [2005-09-01 05:00:35]

Ii Clan

by thomas_tessera

Hi Nina,

"Concerning the Ii clan. I know that they wore red armor and that
there is a story about them from their earlier days of glory."

Indeed the clan flourished under the Tokugawa. The red armour was
actually suggested by Ieyasu himself, who had noted that one of the
Takeda generals, Yamagata Masakage, had dressed his men in red armour.
(credit: samurai-archive)

"But in actual history: I was wondering: during the 17th century, did
the historical Ii clan actually have any tendencies toward the type of
sadism that the film shows them to have?"

This is a broad topic, and I am only an amateur, but allow me to offer
somew views on this topic, and maybe some others might chip in. A bit
lengthy, but it's a big topic.

Every comment need be headed 'In my view... '

I don't think it was sadism per se, but such an attitude existed and
was general to its class. These men were largely warriors without a
war, so they looked at other means to demonstrate their prowess, and
one means was to ensure that others stuck to the code. If I insist you
commit seppuku, it's because I would in your situation. Whether this
is actually true or not is another matter, but as long as you're not
put to the test, then no-one will ever know...

Seppuku, and a close relation junshi (the practice of retainers
killing themselves upon the death of their lord) assumed an importance
out of all reasonable proportion in peacetime. With no-one out to kill
me, the next best way to show my worth is to kill myself. Junshi was
rarely practiced in earlier eras, and was frowned upon if not
expressly forbidden by the authorities.

Earlier and more violent eras were a lot more pragmatic. "He who
fights and runs away," as the saying goes, and if every samurai lived
by the post-Edo ideal then none of them would have survived their
inevitable reverses in fortune. Life might be ephemeral, but it was
precious, and the martial ryu taught that to throw one's life away was
a waste, and stupid.

Let me illustrate with a true tale of the peacetime samurai: two men
pass on the stairs of Edo Castle. As they do, the sheaths of their
swords accidentally clash. This was considered an insult beyond repair
(it was a technique used to start a fight, a show of disrespect of the
other person). Fighting in the castle was prohibited, but 'samurai
honour' demands instant redress of insult (notably the author of The
Hagakure considered the loyal 47 ronin to be despicable for waiting so
long. They sould have acted that very day, and been killed to a man),
so what happens, "I'll show you the kind of man I am!" shouts one,
draws his sword and kills himself, there on the stairs. The other is
horrified, he races on, delivers the message, returns, "how dare you
act in such a way as to imply my dishonour!" and, you guessed it, he
draws his sword and kills himself, too.

An extreme case, I grant you, but a telling one. Two lives lost for
what? Injured pride.

I would suggest that the Ii officials knew this fellow was looking for
'go away' money, but also saw there was some fun to be had ...
undoubtedly there were sadistic b*st*rds around, our unfortunate
fellow just happened to run into one of them.

There is a tale of a thousand match contest in the Muto Ryu (founded
by Tesshu, a swordsman of great renown) where the fencer has to fight
a thousand matches over a 3-day period. Few have done it, but one man
did, and on the third day, still a long way short of his mark, he was
challenged by a man whom he knew delighted in nothing more than
injuring his opponents in a fencing match. Our hero (who by this stage
was in such a pass that he later recorded he was passing blood in his
urine) squared his shoulders, and stepped forward. Master Tesshu, who
knew both men, saw this and stopped the bout, declaring our hero the
victor not only of the match, but of the total challenge.

In short I would declare the attitude you highlight a psychological
sickness not unknown in the military, where some feel the need to
prove their prowess at every turn, but have no valid means of so doing.

In the UK I remember there was some furore over the activities of the
Parachute Regiment (an elite unit) that might be considered along the
same lines, who went through a period of picking fights with regular
army units stationed nearby. I know of one guy in a very elite unit
who would never drink in a pub if there were other members of his own
unit present, as there was sure to be a fight.

It's a man thing.

(If I appear to be hard on the samurai, I am harder on the Tokugawa
Shogunate, who continually demonstrated an inability to get to grips
with these issues, and fudged things miserably at times. To my very
limited knowledge, it seems the authorities invariably fudged things
terribly when it came to matters of seppuku and samurai discipline in
general.)

Thomas

[Previous #7530] [Next #7569]

#7569 [2005-09-01 07:01:29]

RE: [samuraihistory] Ii Clan

by ninaboal21044

Great points. What is "sadism" according to our modern sensabilties (which
include all sorts of acceptable sadisms of our own)? And what is a proper,
appropriate response to an action seen as being an outrage within the
context of 17th century samurai ethics?

The following is all speculative, as this is a list discussing samurai
history and not a list where we discuss Japanese cinema. However, reading
what I've read, and drawing a few speculative conclusions (which might be
wrong): I would not be at all surprised to see that an account existed at
one time in a clan's logbook about a begging ronin who had bamboo swords
being forced to commit seppuku with his own bamboo wakizashi. So I will
continue my discussion as one of possible history and not as a discussion
about a film.

Put yourself in the viewpoint of a 17th century clansmen (hanshi). You serve
your clan and lord faithfully. The wars are over, still you wish to uphold
the code of bushido (which by the way had NOT been recorded as a "how to"
official manual). Some ragged fellow wearing two swords and who speaks the
language of a man of the samurai class appears at your clan gate. He tells
the oft-repeated story about how he's a ronin who is so poor he wants to
commit seppuku in a corner of your clan's back yard. How many times have you
heard this sad tale before?

Fast foward a bit to modern times. Many of us, at least in the U.S. (and
probably in other countries) have seen the ragged folk on the corners with
signs "will work for food." But when some of these folks are approached to
actually do some work, they give excuses. And it turns out that they don't
want a job, they want a handout.

Back to 17th century Edo in Japan. You, the loyal hanshi, invite the poor
guy in and relate to your superiors this sad tale that he bears. Does he
really want to commit seppuku or is he just looking for a handout? You
decide that it doesn't matter, that your clan stands for upholding samurai
honor and a samurai must be taken at his word. So he will commit seppuku, as
he has stated that he wishes to do.

Then somewhere along the line, you and your fellow clansmen discover that
the ragged ronin was carrying bamboo sword blades. This brings a whole
different issue to the fore. Because as a loyal samurai and hanshi, you have
learned all of your life that "The Sword Is The Soul of the Samurai." And
yes, this idea of the sword, as opposed to other weapons, being so important
to fighting samurai was largely not true in earlier times of Japanese
history. But by the time of the peaceful Edo period, this idea had become
almost "gospel." So in this particular time, the sword is supposed to be the
"living soul" of the samurai.

So this ronin has commited an outrage by having sold his sword blades and
hiding his shame by carrying replacement blades of bamboo -- which would be
totally useless in a real fight. Why did he do it? To feed his starving
family? Because he needed the money for more sake or opium? Who knows? And
according to our 17th century hanshi and his colleagues -- who cares? In
effect, the man has sold his soul. And must be punished simply for that. But
on top of it, he claims to want to participate in the sacred ritual of
seppuku. And doesn't possess the means for doing so. It's clear that the
lying wretch is trying to extort the clan for a handout and has no intention
to commit seppuku.

So you and your colleagues decide to take a stand for Bushido. Not only
force this guy to commit seppuku, but force him to use his own sword to do
it. What a way to send a message that the code of Bushido isn't dead, even
though it has taken a battering in recent, peaceful times.

Back a bit to the fictional account written by Takiguchi Yasuhiko (which
later became the film, SEPPUKU). In these works, the account of the bamboo
sword seppuku becomes public record, and there is no protest against this.
So unless the accounts of these events were vivid figments of Takiguchi's
over-active imagination, it can be logically speculated that this act by a
clan, which some of us here and now consider an act of sadism, was
considered acceptable within the context of the society where it happened.

History is full of atrocities that occured that were considered acceptable
within the context of the times where they took place. It's chilling. Not a
pleasant subject; it seems easier for a lot of us to wander off in
speculations about how noble the samurai were and always have been. Not so.

So why am I drawn to this whole speculation? I'm working on a piece of
historical fiction where one of the characters, an impoverished 18th century
ronin, has pawned his swords and has replaced them with bamboo blades. And
must deal with the consequences of that action. He doesn't try and gain
money by claiming to want to commit seppuku. Still, he runs into harrowing
choices and events. And I get to ruminate in the issue of what really
constitutes a "soul" and whether or not it might be encased in a sword. And
also run head-on into other issues that go beyond 18th century Japan.

Again, my two mon. Which has turned into a few ryo. Perhaps useless
ramblings.

Nina
_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Thomas Davidson
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:01 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Ii Clan



Hi Nina,

"Concerning the Ii clan ... [snips]

"But in actual history: I was wondering: during the 17th century, did
the historical Ii clan actually have any tendencies toward the type of
sadism that the film shows them to have?"

This is a broad topic, and I am only an amateur, but allow me to offer
somew views on this topic, and maybe some others might chip in. A bit
lengthy, but it's a big topic.

Every comment need be headed 'In my view... '

I don't think it was sadism per se, but such an attitude existed and
was general to its class. These men were largely warriors without a
war, so they looked at other means to demonstrate their prowess, and
one means was to ensure that others stuck to the code.

[snip rest of very informative post]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #7559] [Next #7581]

#7581 [2005-09-01 20:10:39]

Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by kurotatsunoshi

I'm not aware of any specific instances in which the Ii treated a
ronin (or anyone else) in an unnecessarily harsh manner. The reason
the screenwriter chose the Ii clan could have been a combination of
several factors:
1)The empty suit of armor in Hara-kiri is one of the most important
symbols in the film. The Ii clan red suits of armor were among the
most distinctive and famous in Japan, particularly Naomasa's horned
suit (presumably the one featured in the film) and made a perfect
cinematic fit. It was also interesting that they chose to use the
incorrect Ii hatch mark standard (only used in wartime, it was the
first character of their name) rather than the peacetime Tachibana
(flower) standard on the large screen in the courtyard. Thus, when
the screen is covered in blood from a fallen Ii retainer, the good
name of the Ii has also been symbolically stained with blood.
2)The Ii were renowned for their zeal and steadfastness both in
battle (seen when disobeying orders to be the first into battle at
Sekigahara, and using their orders to keep the besieged Osaka castle
under control as an excuse to bombard the castle) and in supporting
the Tokugawa (`the establishment'). This made them perfect for being
the symbol of the `unfair powers that be'.
3)The Ii were accused (in the person of Ii Naosuke) of being too
strict and cruel in dealing with anti-government factions during the
Bakumatsu era (about 230 years after the time period Hara-kiri was
set in). This formed the basis for the events in the film Samurai
Assassination. Personally, I've always felt it was a bum rap. Naosuke
was trying his best to bring Japan into the modern era while still
keeping its national identity, but the many factions pulling in
different directions made it a near impossible job. This helped to
give the Ii clan a `bad guy' image.
I've always found the story of Ii Naomasa fascinating. It reads like
a movie. His father was murdered when Naomasa was a child, leaving
him the last of his clan. He was sheltered, protected, and brought to
adulthood by his aunt, a Buddhist nun who assumed the leadership of
the clan and brooked no nonsense during his childhood (sometimes even
dressing as a man to command the respect of those she had to deal
with). He became one of the `4 Pillars Of Tokugawa' (in most
reckonings) and received the wound that eventually killed him while
engaged in battle with one of the few clans that were the martial
equals of the Ii (the Shimazu). Interestingly enough, Tokugawa Ieyasu
blamed that famous suit of armor for being the cause of the wound.

[Previous #7569] [Next #7582]

#7582 [2005-09-01 20:49:09]

Re: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by chunjouonimusha

Just going out on a limb. The Red armour was that the problem and the
result of his wound that killed him was there a flaw in it? I would not see how
one could blame the armour.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#7583 [2005-09-01 21:29:09]

Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by kurotatsunoshi

Ieyasu didn't deign to elaborate (it's good being daimyo), but it
probably had something to do with the weight of the armor-it was quite
heavy and hindered Naomasa'a mobility, making him an easier target for
the Shimazu 'tall grass' snipers.

[Previous #7582] [Next #7585]

#7585 [2005-09-01 21:37:46]

Re: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by chunjouonimusha

Ah good point... I will ahve to look in my Samuria armor book and see, what
the derfference in weight are... and yes Understand being in the Marines for 4
years we had to wear falck vest... they wre heavey and combersome.. was
hard to move in them... and add on the wieght of full backpack to put... I
found myslef lasying on the ground once like a turtle that could not get up; ahd
I been in combat... eeks.. So ther eis something to be said for being
mobile... I am not sure at this point in time were they using metal yet or still
leather overlays and is there a picture of this armor somewhre that I could
check out.?


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[Previous #7583] [Next #7586]

#7586 [2005-09-01 22:10:57]

Re: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by sengokudaimyo

seikei7248@... wrote:

> Just going out on a limb. The Red armour was that the problem and
> the result of his wound that killed him was there a flaw in it? I
> would not see how one could blame the armour.

It made him *very* conspicuous, and a really obvious target.


Tony

[Previous #7585] [Next #7598]

#7598 [2005-09-02 07:22:28]

Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by kurotatsunoshi

While I'm far too lazy to search for a photo of the real armor, this model will give you a good idea of what the armor looked like.

http://www.tedtoy.com/images/IiNAOM1.JPG



It was metal and as I recall weighed about 120 lbs, although I would feel better about the figure if one of the list armor experts could confirm it.

[Previous #7586] [Next #7602]

#7602 [2005-09-02 09:27:18]

RE: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by ninaboal21044

Interesting that in Joan Mellen's analysis of SEPPUKU in her WAVES ON
GENJI'S SHORE (I believe that's the title; my memory is not always very
good). She goes on to speculate about how some real-life ronin "avenged"
Tsugumo Hanshiro (the main character, played by Nakadai)'s death a few
centuries later when Ii Naosuke was assasinated.

However... as a historian, Joan Mellen really needs to stick to
movie-critiquing. I've also read about the assasination of Ii Naosuke and it
has absolutely nothing about poor, impoverished ronin rising up against the
rich ruling class. Not at all. The assasination was done by some
anti-Tokugawa pro-Emperor forces who wished to enforce their motto of
"Revere the Emperor, Expel the Barbarians" ("Sonno-Joi"). These
anti-Tokugawa forces were exponents of keeping a strict feudalism, they just
thought that the Tokugawas, in wanting to open up the country for trade,
weren't being strict enough in being feudal.

The only forces in the bakumatsu wars who wanted to bring any sort of
democracy to the common people (which would include poor, starving ronin)
was Sakamoto Ryoma. Who I find to be one of the most fascinating people of
the bakumatsu era. He and his forces were not at all involved in the
assassination of Ii Naosuke as far as I know.

An aside on cinema: in the new Criterion release of SEPPUKU ("HaraKiri")
Joan Mellen has an essay included. I think she learned her lesson and her
new essay has no references to the assassination of Ii Naosuke.

Nina
_____

From: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com [mailto:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Randy Schadel
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:11 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)



3)The Ii were accused (in the person of Ii Naosuke) of being too
strict and cruel in dealing with anti-government factions during the
Bakumatsu era (about 230 years after the time period Hara-kiri was
set in). This formed the basis for the events in the film Samurai
Assassination. Personally, I've always felt it was a bum rap. Naosuke
was trying his best to bring Japan into the modern era while still
keeping its national identity, but the many factions pulling in
different directions made it a near impossible job. This helped to
give the Ii clan a `bad guy' image.
I've always found the story of Ii Naomasa fascinating. It reads like
a movie. His father was murdered when Naomasa was a child, leaving
him the last of his clan. He was sheltered, protected, and brought to
adulthood by his aunt, a Buddhist nun who assumed the leadership of
the clan and brooked no nonsense during his childhood (sometimes even
dressing as a man to command the respect of those she had to deal
with). He became one of the `4 Pillars Of Tokugawa' (in most
reckonings) and received the wound that eventually killed him while
engaged in battle with one of the few clans that were the martial
equals of the Ii (the Shimazu). Interestingly enough, Tokugawa Ieyasu
blamed that famous suit of armor for being the cause of the wound.





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#7612 [2005-09-02 15:25:43]

Re: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by chunjouonimusha

Thaks for this post i will check the site out; 12o lbs... somwhere around
waht all my gear weighed when I was in the Marines... laying on my back like
a turtle... laghing... Not counting gas maks ; since the ops that night
were to e pregared for this also- So understand about he wieght of the armor..
wow... I can tell you from experience.... having that much on you; will
reduce your ability to move big time.. Not counting how fast it would ware you out.

Have been checking oout my Sauria weapons and Armor book also. but will
ckech out this site. Tahnks again for the post... atode....


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[Previous #7602] [Next #7618]

#7618 [2005-09-02 07:52:07]

Re: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by takayama_hara

I have worn armor made of steel and I am far taller
then any samurai of the age, my armor only weighted
about 50 lbs. So I can't imagine any samurtai armor
weighting more then that.

--- Randy Schadel <ayamechiba@...> wrote:

> While I'm far too lazy to search for a photo of the
> real armor, this model will give you a good idea of
> what the armor looked like.
>
> http://www.tedtoy.com/images/IiNAOM1.JPG
>
>
>
> It was metal and as I recall weighed about 120 lbs,
> although I would feel better about the figure if one
> of the list armor experts could confirm it.
>
>
>




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#7625 [2005-09-03 05:22:33]

Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by kurotatsunoshi

"I have worn armor made of steel and I am far taller then any samurai of the age, my armor only weighted about 50 lbs. So I can't imagine any samurtai armor weighting more then that."

So have I-my re-enactment armor with its storage box is 57 lbs.
However, I have handled several historical sets in the mid-to-low 90 lb range, so 120 would not be out of the question.

[Previous #7618] [Next #7627]

#7627 [2005-09-03 07:22:48]

Re: Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by sengokudaimyo

Randy Schadel wrote:

>
> So have I-my re-enactment armor with its storage box is 57 lbs.
> However, I have handled several historical sets in the mid-to-low 90
> lb range, so 120 would not be out of the question.
>
That sounds ludicrously heavy. Absolutely INSANELY heavy.

If I remember the number correctly, according to Sakakibara Kozan the
average cuirass ("breast-and-back plates" for folks in Riolinda) in the
sengoku period weighed 15 to 21 pounds* (lighter than earlier, scale
armours with full lacing), the helmet 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 (plus another 3/4
for the shikoro), the kote averaging 1 to 2 pounds each, haidate at
about 5 to 6 pounds and suneate at about a pound each.

There is no WAY Japanese armour ever weighed 120 pounds.

Even the bullet-proof stuff.


Tony
* Which holds true for the armour I've seen and worked with.

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#7633 [2005-09-03 10:01:20]

Ii Clan (was RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Top Ten Samurai Movies)

by kurotatsunoshi

Tony wrote:
"Which holds true for the armour I've seen and worked with."

I stand corrected. Just out of idle curiousity, do you have a general idea of what the heaviest armor you have worked with was? I imagine you've seen as much armor as anyone in the west.
The heaviest I've examined firsthand was an Edo period ceremonial O-Yoroi that the owner had tagged at 42.5 kg.
By contrast, my father-in-law's family armor is 19.6 kg (including the armor box).

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