The "N" Word please

Can I ask the group their thoughts on the Turnbull - Osprey Book about
Ninja (Ninja AD 1460 – 1650)? Also, if Stephen Hayes is so poorly
regarded, then I suspect that his "Master" Masaaki Hatsumi is equally
vilified. I ask because I bought a Sojutsu DVD that was made by him
because there is very little material available on that martial art in
English.

Thank you

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Michael"
wrote:

> Can I ask the group their thoughts on the Turnbull - Osprey Book

about

> Ninja (Ninja AD 1460 E1650)? Also, if Stephen Hayes is so poorly
> regarded, then I suspect that his "Master" Masaaki Hatsumi is equally
> vilified. I ask because I bought a Sojutsu DVD that was made by him
> because there is very little material available on that martial art

in

> English.
>
> Thank you

I picked it up in a bookshop, glanced at the numerous pictures of black
pyjama clad warriors with throwing stars and put it back down again.
And went home and took a shower.

Seriously though, having briefly leafed through it, it does seem to
contradict itself in that it tries to debunk some of the myths and ends
up perpetuating those very same myths.

I have some of these books and also one by his Master... I am not sure.. but
I did not see alot of.. Hmm Martial Art usage in them. But then again I
have not read them completely...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Shane Suebsahakarn <shanesuebsahakarn@...>
wrote:


---------------------------------
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Michael"

wrote:

> Can I ask the group their thoughts on the Turnbull -

Osprey Book
about

> Ninja (Ninja AD 1460 E1650)? Also, if Stephen Hayes

is so poorly

> regarded, then I suspect that his "Master" Masaaki

Hatsumi is equally

> vilified. I ask because I bought a Sojutsu DVD that

was made by him

> because there is very little material available on

that martial art
in

> English.
>
> Thank you

I picked it up in a bookshop, glanced at the numerous
pictures of black
pyjama clad warriors with throwing stars and put it
back down again.
And went home and took a shower.

Seriously though, having briefly leafed through it, it
does seem to
contradict itself in that it tries to debunk some of
the myths and ends
up perpetuating those very same myths.



Hi

considering 10 years ago Yurnbull wrote a bigger book
on the Ninja this one was a seriously pathetic attempt
at just making money

He has taken comic book principles bits of hollywood
and tried to pass it off as Ninja related material.

I was shocked to see that he states that Ninja carried
straight bladed swords. He obviously has done no
research whatsoever into anything regarding ninja
weapons, and he definately has not had any timeon his
hands to read forums etc.
The straight ninja sword was 100% debunked by members
of the Ninjutsu training community 15 years ago, with
the source of that creation going back to Steve Hayes.

I was given the book as a gift and I wish I could have
given it back.

I wouldnt waste my money on it

Paul





____________________________________________________
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--- Paul Richardson <umaryu@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- Shane Suebsahakarn
> <shanesuebsahakarn@...>
> wrote:
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Michael"
>
> wrote:
> > Can I ask the group their thoughts on the Turnbull
> -
> Osprey Book
> about
> > Ninja (Ninja AD 1460 E1650)? Also, if Stephen
> Hayes
> is so poorly
> > regarded, then I suspect that his "Master" Masaaki
> Hatsumi is equally
> > vilified. I ask because I bought a Sojutsu DVD
> that
> was made by him
> > because there is very little material available on
> that martial art
> in
> > English.
> >
> > Thank you
>
> I picked it up in a bookshop, glanced at the
> numerous
> pictures of black
> pyjama clad warriors with throwing stars and put it
> back down again.
> And went home and took a shower.
>
> Seriously though, having briefly leafed through it,
> it
> does seem to
> contradict itself in that it tries to debunk some of
> the myths and ends
> up perpetuating those very same myths.
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> considering 10 years ago Yurnbull wrote a bigger
> book
> on the Ninja this one was a seriously pathetic
> attempt
> at just making money
>
> He has taken comic book principles bits of hollywood
> and tried to pass it off as Ninja related material.
>
> I was shocked to see that he states that Ninja
> carried
> straight bladed swords. He obviously has done no
> research whatsoever into anything regarding ninja
> weapons, and he definately has not had any timeon
> his
> hands to read forums etc.
> The straight ninja sword was 100% debunked by
> members
> of the Ninjutsu training community 15 years ago,
> with
> the source of that creation going back to Steve
> Hayes.
>
> I was given the book as a gift and I wish I could
> have
> given it back.
>
> I wouldnt waste my money on it
>
> Paul
>

Paul,

As I look through the book I see that the artist drew
a picture of a square tsuba style sword in one panal
but also shows katana in the very next panal.
Turnbull makes a point to mention katana, although on
page 18 under the heading of "
Standard ninja equipment" he says "... for convenience
the ninja would choose a blade that was shorter and
straighter then usual."

Michael

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wood
wrote:

> As I look through the book I see that the artist drew
> a picture of a square tsuba style sword in one panal
> but also shows katana in the very next panal.
> Turnbull makes a point to mention katana, although on
> page 18 under the heading of "
> Standard ninja equipment" he says "... for convenience
> the ninja would choose a blade that was shorter and
> straighter then usual."

I didn't even know that ninja had "standard equipment".

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Suebsahakarn"
wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wood
> wrote:
>
> > As I look through the book I see that the artist drew
> > a picture of a square tsuba style sword in one panal
> > but also shows katana in the very next panal.
> > Turnbull makes a point to mention katana, although on
> > page 18 under the heading of "
> > Standard ninja equipment" he says "... for convenience
> > the ninja would choose a blade that was shorter and
> > straighter then usual."
>
> I didn't even know that ninja had "standard equipment".

I do not know what standard equipment would be. I've read a lot of
different stuff about ninja. Although if you think about it a shorter
sword would be lighter to carry. I read somewhere (don't know if its
true or not) that ninja would carry a short sword with a longer saya.
Ninja would fill the bottom of the saya with blinding powders or
somethings like that. Or the bottom of the saya could detach and be
used as a snorkel. Again I say I do not know if that is fact or not.

"considering 10 years ago Yurnbull wrote a bigger book
on the Ninja this one was a seriously pathetic attempt
at just making money

He has taken comic book principles bits of hollywood
and tried to pass it off as Ninja related material."

It's not that bad by a long shot. While the Osprey book is not nearly
as good as the earlier Firebird book, remember that Turnbull is doing a
complete overview of the Ninja, both the historical and fictional
versions. It examines the myths, fallacies, misconceptions, and the
role of the ninja in popular culture (hence the 'comic book principles)
as well as historical accounts. If someone is looking for a
straightforward historical study, then the book is probably not for
them.
However, if someone is looking for a straightforward historical study
of ninja, good luck. Most of what could be put in it could just as
easily be covered by a book dealing with samurai.

--- Randy Schadel <ayamechiba@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
"considering 10 years ago Yurnbull wrote a bigger
book
on the Ninja this one was a seriously pathetic attempt
at just making money

He has taken comic book principles bits of hollywood
and tried to pass it off as Ninja related material."

It's not that bad by a long shot. While the Osprey
book is not nearly
as good as the earlier Firebird book, remember that
Turnbull is doing a
complete overview of the Ninja, both the historical
and fictional
versions. It examines the myths, fallacies,
misconceptions, and the
role of the ninja in popular culture (hence the 'comic
book principles)
as well as historical accounts. If someone is looking
for a
straightforward historical study, then the book is
probably not for
them.
However, if someone is looking for a straightforward
historical study
of ninja, good luck. Most of what could be put in it
could just as
easily be covered by a book dealing with samurai.



HI

Having been involvedinthe Ninja/ninjutsu martial arts
side of the world for the past 20 years, including
paying for books by Okuse to be translated, I would
have to disagree with you.

Turnbull has turned out a book that couldnt be any
where near the truth in fact or legend.

Considering the content of his previous book on the
ninja I would have to say I didnt think it was wirtten
by turnbull but by some high school kid that had
collected information from web sites created by other
high school kids.

I say this speaking as a member of the bujinkan which
used to use the ninjutsu boom to promote itself.

The book is a waste of paper and will only send people
in the worng direction if they are looking for
anything to do with ninja.

paul





____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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>
> The book is a waste of paper and will only send people
> in the worng direction if they are looking for
> anything to do with ninja.

Paul,
We'll just have to agree to disagree. When Turnbull is speaking of historical ninja, what he writes is accurate (as borne out by many Japanese texts in my collection-although as noted in my last post, these events do not stand out as being anything other than regular samurai history in said texts. Japanese historical sources both primary and secondary are notoriously lacking in any reference to ninja as such, and in fact I would find any document that does somewhat Hayes-esque and suspect). When he is speaking of legends/myths etc, those are accurate. And when he is speaking of their role in popular culture, that is correct as well (the 'high school website' stuff-I'm unsure of what the 'pop culture' image of the ninja is in the UK, but he has nailed the USA pop culture version). The Iga Ninja museum (which Turnbull draws heavily upon) goes along with pretty much everything in the book (and is a great place to visit-along with the whacked out nearby ninja theme park).
I do agree (as indicated by my original post) that the earlier book is much better, in large part due to a greater focus on the historical ninja.
Best of luck with the dojo!