If you could be a great Military leader how would you be?

Hi fellow warriors,
As I was going through my mail this evening I saw a few famous military leaders either mentioned or referred to. A question occured to me- If you could be a famous Military leader from the past who would you be?
I think my answer at this point would be possibly split between Ieyasu Tokugawa and Erwin Rommel.
My first choice, Ieyasu Tokugawa was the first Shogun of Japan; according to my research, he united Japan; I could elaborate but in fairness this could be a seperate e-mail.
My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the Desert Fox, again according to my research, was one of Hitler's smartest generals.
There you have my answer to the question, what's your answer?
I'd be glad to answer any questions or hear any comments.
I closing, I just though it might be interesting or fun to see what answers turned up.
Hope to hear from you soon,
Shadow

shadowhawke666 wrote:

> My first choice, Ieyasu Tokugawa was the first Shogun of Japan; according to my research, he united Japan; I could elaborate but in fairness this could be a seperate e-mail.

Um. No. He was the first shogun of the Tokugawa line. Hardly the first.

>
> My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the Desert Fox, again according to my research, was one of Hitler's smartest generals.

Who had to commit suicide.

Frankly, I don't think I'd want to be one of Hitler's *anything* regardless of his career.

>
> There you have my answer to the question, what's your answer?

I don't know what to make of the question.

Would I want to live his life, or be myself in his position? If the latter, chances are my choices and actions would be different, thus producing a different ultimate picture. At what point do I "step in" to someone's
life and take over?

Sorry, these type of questions annoy me.

Tony

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the

> Desert Fox, again according to my research, was one
> of Hitler's smartest generals.
>
> Who had to commit suicide.
>
> Frankly, I don't think I'd want to be one of
> Hitler's *anything* regardless of his career.

That was my thought...great general, top of the line
operational commander, but I sure as heck would NOT
want to deal with Hitler as my superior...it's bad
enough some of the people I have to work with in the
US Army.

>
> Sorry, these type of questions annoy me.
>
> Tony
>

Tony, relax! It's all in good fun, don't try to read
too much into it.

Okay, here goes. I've got many choices (and by the
way, I'm reading this as who would I wish to have the
same circumstances befall me historically and try to
live up to what they did. Good compromise?)

Being an ex-tanker, Patton is always a choice...love
that guy. Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse, just to see
Custer's face as an arrow went through his
head...(despite my being a member of 7th Cavalry
Regiment...Garryowen in Glory) Maybe MacArthur or
Ridgeway, to see the Korean War ended right, unlike
the situation now.

I'd have to say my top choice would be Oda Nobunaga,
and not just because we're on the Samurai list. What a
fascinating man! I'd love to walk in his shoes for a
little while, see what went on in his mind. He, in my
mind, was the absolute master at integrating tactical,
operational, and strategic levels of warfare. Just to
glimpse into his decision making process, his
analysis, his IPB...wow. I'd say Hashiba Hideyoshi
would be another good choice--not Toyotomi, but
Hashiba Hideyoshi, so I could examine his
commander/subordinate relationship with Nobunaga, and
figure out why these two opposites worked so well
together.

Just my two yen...it is a rather silly, yet
interesting question. C'mon, Tony...don't be so
analytical!!!!

Nate

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First, let me tell you, Tony, that I am a big fan of your work. I have
read all of your osprey Samurai titles and intend to buy the
historical game "Sengoku". The inspiration for purchasing your
books was the film "Kagemusha" by Kurosawa (probably
already know that). Although I have read many historical fiction
stories and watched a whole crapload of Samurai films,
Kagemusha made me want to know exactly what happened.
Your writing is clear, concise, and direct. I deeply appreciate
your contribution to my education and the western knowledge of
Japanese history. Maybe Shadowhawke should take to reading
some of your books to better educate himself with the lineage of
the Shogun. He's only off by a few hundred years and a few
hundred Shogun.
Now here's my spin on his question... If you were playing
Sengoku which daimyo would you play as?

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:

> shadowhawke666 wrote:
>
> > My first choice, Ieyasu Tokugawa was the first Shogun of

Japan; according to my research, he united Japan; I could
elaborate but in fairness this could be a seperate e-mail.

>
> Um. No. He was the first shogun of the Tokugawa line. Hardly

the first.

>
> >
> > My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the Desert

Fox, again according to my research, was one of Hitler's
smartest generals.

>
> Who had to commit suicide.
>
> Frankly, I don't think I'd want to be one of Hitler's *anything*

regardless of his career.

>
> >
> > There you have my answer to the question, what's your

answer?

>
> I don't know what to make of the question.
>
> Would I want to live his life, or be myself in his position? If the

latter, chances are my choices and actions would be different,
thus producing a different ultimate picture. At what point do I
"step in" to someone's

> life and take over?
>
> Sorry, these type of questions annoy me.
>
> Tony

Winston Churchill as my first choice. He was both a
great stateman and a strategist. Some people may know
it. He was the one who wrote a document on how to land
troops in France after 1941 which General Eisenhower
used as a reference for his landing plan. He also
corrected some of mistakes made by American Generals
(like Gen. Marshall) at the initial war planning right
after Pearl Harbor.(Gen. Marshall proposed raising one
million Army and Churchill explained why it was a bad
idea)

My second choice is Napoleon Bonaparte. I think with
regard to his ability of organizing and implementing
the offensive, there was no equal at his life time.
(Sir Wellington purely took a defensive posture
whenever he faced with Nopoleon. Even this was not
successful if he had not had a prussian ally.)

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
> wrote:
> My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the
> > Desert Fox, again according to my research, was
> one
> > of Hitler's smartest generals.
> >
> > Who had to commit suicide.
> >
> > Frankly, I don't think I'd want to be one of
> > Hitler's *anything* regardless of his career.
>
> That was my thought...great general, top of the line
> operational commander, but I sure as heck would NOT
> want to deal with Hitler as my superior...it's bad
> enough some of the people I have to work with in the
> US Army.
>
>
> >
> > Sorry, these type of questions annoy me.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>
> Tony, relax! It's all in good fun, don't try to read
> too much into it.
>
> Okay, here goes. I've got many choices (and by the
> way, I'm reading this as who would I wish to have
> the
> same circumstances befall me historically and try to
> live up to what they did. Good compromise?)
>
> Being an ex-tanker, Patton is always a choice...love
> that guy. Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse, just to see
> Custer's face as an arrow went through his
> head...(despite my being a member of 7th Cavalry
> Regiment...Garryowen in Glory) Maybe MacArthur or
> Ridgeway, to see the Korean War ended right, unlike
> the situation now.
>
> I'd have to say my top choice would be Oda Nobunaga,
> and not just because we're on the Samurai list. What
> a
> fascinating man! I'd love to walk in his shoes for a
> little while, see what went on in his mind. He, in
> my
> mind, was the absolute master at integrating
> tactical,
> operational, and strategic levels of warfare. Just
> to
> glimpse into his decision making process, his
> analysis, his IPB...wow. I'd say Hashiba Hideyoshi
> would be another good choice--not Toyotomi, but
> Hashiba Hideyoshi, so I could examine his
> commander/subordinate relationship with Nobunaga,
> and
> figure out why these two opposites worked so well
> together.
>
> Just my two yen...it is a rather silly, yet
> interesting question. C'mon, Tony...don't be so
> analytical!!!!
>
> Nate
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>

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Hi !!

Thank you all for your answers, we get clear from all
this that retreating was maybe the only choice, and i
think that even if shingen were alive at that moment
he would do the same, but also if shingen were alive
maybe the meeting between the two armies could occur
in different circumstances and other time.

One of the most important aspects to analize from all
this is the thinkings (i dont know the propper term in
english) of Katsuyori, and what was the reason he had
for ordering the attack against the oppinion of his
generals...

Across history, we know about about a great number of
military leaders, such as Alexander the Great,
Saladdin, Ghengis Kahn, etc, and this could hear a
little romantic, but one of the most important
"requirements" for a great military leader, is how
their soldiers are willing tho figth (and die) for
him, in this case, i too put Rommel first.

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Your in the U.S army?

This has nothing to do with samurai's by the way.

Are there any military leaders in the U.S army that you could compare to any of the great military leaders of the past?





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The question could be better phrased (especially for Tony, who I
agree with)as follows.

Which Military leader would you like to meet and talk with.

My list is long, but Hannibal and Rommel (for child hood reasons)
would be top, followed by Caesar and Napoleon.
Epaminondas for beating the Spartans would be another choice. How did
he do it?

From the Samurai, (and Nate this is the Samurai list and we need to
keep on topic for fear of moderation )

My list is.
Takeda Shingen and his sons.
Kusunoki Masashige for giving the ultiminate sacrifice by obeying
orders.
Minamoto Yoshitsune (and Benkei)- do I need reasons?

Yes a flight of fancy but the chance to sit and talk with them all
for some time.
Wow.

Kind regards

Rob

Rob Broom
Warhammer Historical General Manager.

--- In samuraihistory@y..., Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the
> > Desert Fox, again according to my research, was one
> > of Hitler's smartest generals.
> >
> > Who had to commit suicide.
> >
> > Frankly, I don't think I'd want to be one of
> > Hitler's *anything* regardless of his career.
>
> That was my thought...great general, top of the line
> operational commander, but I sure as heck would NOT
> want to deal with Hitler as my superior...it's bad
> enough some of the people I have to work with in the
> US Army.
>
>
> >
> > Sorry, these type of questions annoy me.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>
> Tony, relax! It's all in good fun, don't try to read
> too much into it.
>
> Okay, here goes. I've got many choices (and by the
> way, I'm reading this as who would I wish to have the
> same circumstances befall me historically and try to
> live up to what they did. Good compromise?)
>
> Being an ex-tanker, Patton is always a choice...love
> that guy. Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse, just to see
> Custer's face as an arrow went through his
> head...(despite my being a member of 7th Cavalry
> Regiment...Garryowen in Glory) Maybe MacArthur or
> Ridgeway, to see the Korean War ended right, unlike
> the situation now.
>
> I'd have to say my top choice would be Oda Nobunaga,
> and not just because we're on the Samurai list. What a
> fascinating man! I'd love to walk in his shoes for a
> little while, see what went on in his mind. He, in my
> mind, was the absolute master at integrating tactical,
> operational, and strategic levels of warfare. Just to
> glimpse into his decision making process, his
> analysis, his IPB...wow. I'd say Hashiba Hideyoshi
> would be another good choice--not Toyotomi, but
> Hashiba Hideyoshi, so I could examine his
> commander/subordinate relationship with Nobunaga, and
> figure out why these two opposites worked so well
> together.
>
> Just my two yen...it is a rather silly, yet
> interesting question. C'mon, Tony...don't be so
> analytical!!!!
>
> Nate
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/

If I could be a great military leader? hmm... Alexander The Great.

Or mabey Sun Tzu...

Genghis Khan?





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--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
> wrote:
> My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the
> > Desert Fox, again according to my research, was
> one
> > of Hitler's smartest generals.
> >
> > Who had to commit suicide.
> >
> > Frankly, I don't think I'd want to be one of
> > Hitler's *anything* regardless of his career.
>
> That was my thought...great general, top of the line
> operational commander, but I sure as heck would NOT
> want to deal with Hitler as my superior...it's bad
> enough some of the people I have to work with in the
> US Army.
>
>
> >
> > Sorry, these type of questions annoy me.
> >
> > Tony
> >
>
> Tony, relax! It's all in good fun, don't try to read
> too much into it.
>
> Okay, here goes. I've got many choices (and by the
> way, I'm reading this as who would I wish to have
> the
> same circumstances befall me historically and try to
> live up to what they did. Good compromise?)
>
> Being an ex-tanker, Patton is always a choice...love
> that guy. Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse, just to see
> Custer's face as an arrow went through his
> head...(despite my being a member of 7th Cavalry
> Regiment...Garryowen in Glory) Maybe MacArthur or
> Ridgeway, to see the Korean War ended right, unlike
> the situation now.
>
> I'd have to say my top choice would be Oda Nobunaga,
> and not just because we're on the Samurai list. What
> a
> fascinating man! I'd love to walk in his shoes for a
> little while, see what went on in his mind. He, in
> my
> mind, was the absolute master at integrating
> tactical,
> operational, and strategic levels of warfare. Just
> to
> glimpse into his decision making process, his
> analysis, his IPB...wow. I'd say Hashiba Hideyoshi
> would be another good choice--not Toyotomi, but
> Hashiba Hideyoshi, so I could examine his
> commander/subordinate relationship with Nobunaga,
> and
> figure out why these two opposites worked so well
> together.
>
> Just my two yen...it is a rather silly, yet
> interesting question. C'mon, Tony...don't be so
> analytical!!!!
>
> Nate
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>

Hi Nate,
Its strange that one of your choices was Crazy
Horse; Crazy Horse and I share a few things with him.
First I walk the same path that he did this is being a
shaman; I use the term waker between the worlds but it
describes the same path. Second, I have Native
American blood in my heritage or family tree.
You also mentioned Patton; its odd but when
making my choices I too thought of Patton; maybe its
because George read the book written by Rommel on Tank
Warfare.
As I'm writing this, another military leader
comes to mind- Maj. Greg Boyington of the " Black
Sheep Squadron".- the tv series left out that right
after becoming an ace he was shot down and spent most
of his time in Japan in a POW camp; it wasn't until
1945(?) that he was released.
I watched an interview of Major Boyington; in
real life he looks more like Sly Stone with glasses or
maybe Clark Kent without the uniform ( I think you get
the picture) than Robert Conrad, ( the guy from the
series WiLd Wild West).
Write back and let me know what you think;
any way keep in touch it seems we have a lot in
common.
Shadow

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--- lee thompson <cmotdibbleruk@...> wrote:

>
> Your in the U.S army?
>
> This has nothing to do with samurai's by the way.

Are you saying your question has nothing to do with
samurai, or that my being in the U.S. Army has nothing
to do with samurai? If the latter, then if I am asked
a question about military tactics, then it has a
serious bearing on how I will answer the question.

>
> Are there any military leaders in the U.S army that
> you could compare to any of the great military
> leaders of the past?
>

I am assuming you mean currently? The US Army has had
its share for its short history (Grant, Washington,
Lee most of his life, Patton, Eisenhower, etc.) If you
mean currently, that's rather hard to say. Most of the
above mentioned wouldn't be considered great if there
had not have been wars for them to fight. I believe
many great leaders don't stand out until the bullets
start to fly. But if I had to say anybody that I've
had contact with, a COL Michael Formica comes to mind.
He was my squadron commander in a cavalry unit in
Korea. Tactical genius, and we would have followed him
anywhere. If he had decided to go to Pyongyang, we'd
have followed him all the way.

Another might be LTC H.R. McMaster. If you've
researched the Gulf War at all, he was the cavalry
company commander that destroyed an Iraqi Republican
Guard battalion at the Battle of 73 Easting. He's been
published many times, and is regarded as quite the
rising star. And I've talked with people who work for
him (he commands a cavalry squadron in Germany now)
and they say he really is the tactical genius everyone
says he is.

Those are just personal observations, and I can only
speak for what I have seen.

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--- S BURKETT <shadowhawke666@...> wrote:

> As I'm writing this, another military leader
> comes to mind- Maj. Greg Boyington of the " Black
> Sheep Squadron".-

Very interesting choice. I loved the TV show as a kid,
and did a lot of research on him, the F4U Corsair, and
the like. He lived not too far from where I grew up in
Florida.


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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> Tony, relax! It's all in good fun, don't try to read
> too much into it.
>

This is relaxed.

>
> Okay, here goes. I've got many choices (and by the
> way, I'm reading this as who would I wish to have the
> same circumstances befall me historically and try to
> live up to what they did. Good compromise?)
>

That should work.

>
> Being an ex-tanker, Patton is always a choice...love
> that guy. Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse, just to see
> Custer's face as an arrow went through his
> head...(despite my being a member of 7th Cavalry
> Regiment...Garryowen in Glory) Maybe MacArthur or
> Ridgeway, to see the Korean War ended right, unlike
> the situation now.
>

I can see that. I always thought that if I were in Marse Robert's position,
I would have let Longstreet run a flanking maneuver at Gettysburg, and not
send an entire division of infantry across an open field facing cannon
fire...

>
> Just my two yen...it is a rather silly, yet
> interesting question. C'mon, Tony...don't be so
> analytical!!!!

I can see that, but to me, this is the historical equivalent of "Which ship
would win in a fight, the Enterprise or the Galactica?"

midorinotoradesu wrote:

> First, let me tell you, Tony, that I am a big fan of your work. I have
> read all of your osprey Samurai titles and intend to buy the
> historical game "Sengoku". The inspiration for purchasing your
> books was the film "Kagemusha" by Kurosawa (probably
> already know that). Although I have read many historical fiction
> stories and watched a whole crapload of Samurai films,
> Kagemusha made me want to know exactly what happened.
> Your writing is clear, concise, and direct. I deeply appreciate
> your contribution to my education and the western knowledge of
> Japanese history.

Thank you!

> Maybe Shadowhawke should take to reading
> some of your books to better educate himself with the lineage of
> the Shogun. He's only off by a few hundred years and a few
> hundred Shogun.
> Now here's my spin on his question... If you were playing
> Sengoku which daimyo would you play as?

Ah. Hmmmm...

Well, I've always been a great fan of Shingen, but politically rather than
militarily. He was unable to whup Kenshin despite repeated attempts over the
same ground. In terms of military strategy and ruthlessness, I'd go with
Hideyoshi.

Tony

> I can see that, but to me, this is the historical
> equivalent of "Which ship
> would win in a fight, the Enterprise or the
> Galactica?"

Ouch! You got me! (feigns death)


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Hello,

I am new to this group. I'm from Australia. I have an interest in the
history and origins of the samurai.

In answer to the question at hand, there are several leaders of the past
which I think were great military leaders, although I debate their ideals
and philosophies, ie Adolf Hitler. I think Hitler made a crucial error in
judgment in invading Russia. He should have learned his lesson from Napolean
who tried and failed. Had've he focused more on other areas and not broken
the pact with Stalin, then the war would have turned in another direction.

Secondly, Stalin himself was equally brutal. Yet the allies made their
choice in siding with the lesser of two evils when chosing Stalin as an ally
over Hitler.

Thirdly, Winston Churchill made a good strategic move by involving the
United States into the conflict when Britain were obviously facing
obliteration by the Germans who would no doubt have invaded Britain had've
the United States become involved. Had've they waited until after the
Germans occupied Britain, they would not have had a strategic place to
launch an attack on Europe for D-Day.

Fourth, Attila the Hun. He hasn't gotten a mention at all so I thought that
he should. He had undoubtedly made an impact on the European continent
between 950-953 AD, when the Roman Empire was falling. He would have beaten
the Turks to pillaging Constantinople if he didn't have the appropriate
siege weapons to break down the heavily fortified walls. The Turks took care
of that a few hundred years later. However, the effort on Attila's part was
not wasted. It did allow him to establish his empire and therefore allow his
efforts to be focused on the west - ie Gaul etc.

Fifth, Genghis Khan, who undoubtedly had invaded more land than any other
invader to date. No other military leader had achieved such a feat even to
this day. Had've Genghis not died then it is possible that Europe would have
had a different destiny.

In conclusion I would like to add that there are a great many other leaders
who deserve a mention.

Brendan

-----Original Message-----
From: shadowhawke666 [mailto:shadowhawke666@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:29 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] If you could be a great Military leader how would
you be?

Hi fellow warriors,
As I was going through my mail this evening I saw a few famous military
leaders either mentioned or referred to. A question occured to me- If you
could be a famous Military leader from the past who would you be?
I think my answer at this point would be possibly split between Ieyasu
Tokugawa and Erwin Rommel.
My first choice, Ieyasu Tokugawa was the first Shogun of Japan;
according to my research, he united Japan; I could elaborate but in fairness
this could be a seperate e-mail.
My second choice, Erwin Rommel, known as the Desert Fox, again
according to my research, was one of Hitler's smartest generals.
There you have my answer to the question, what's your answer?
I'd be glad to answer any questions or hear any comments.
I closing, I just though it might be interesting or fun to see what
answers turned up.
Hope to hear from you soon,
Shadow




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robbroomuk wrote:

> The question could be better phrased (especially for Tony, who I
> agree with)as follows.
>
> Which Military leader would you like to meet and talk with.
>

Oooooh, now *THAT'S* a question.

There's a whole pile of them.

David. Leonidas. Alexander. Caesar. Belisarius. Charlemagne ("Big Chuck").
Edward I, Henry V, Aleksandr Nevskiy, Lee, Longstreet, Gordon of Khartoum,
TE Lawrence, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Mosby, Chamberlain, Buford, Pershing,
Whittlesy, Patton, Marshall, Clarke, Yamamoto, etc.

And a few others we don't typically think of as *commanders*, but were great
military men and military thinkers. De Charnay, William Marshall, King Rene,
Sunzi, Geoffrey de Buillon, etc.

In Japanese terms -- historically -- The list is longer.

Tenchi Tenno, Masakado, Yoshitsune, Yoritomo, Kiyomori, Takauji, Yoshisada,
Masashige, Tokimune, Shingen, Kansuke, Soun, Nobunaga, Mitsuhide (and ask
"why?"), Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, Naomasa, Masamune, and a whole pile of others,
including some names most people probably never have heard.


Tony

robbroomuk wrote:

> The question could be better phrased (especially for Tony, who I
> agree with)as follows.
>
> Which Military leader would you like to meet and talk with.
>

Oooooh, now *THAT'S* a question.

There's a whole pile of them.

David. Leonidas. Alexander. Caesar. Belisarius. Charlemagne ("Big Chuck").
Edward I, Henry V, Aleksandr Nevskiy, Lee, Longstreet, Gordon of Khartoum,
TE Lawrence, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Mosby, Chamberlain, Buford, Pershing,
Whittlesy, Patton, Marshall, Clarke, Yamamoto, etc.

And a few others we don't typically think of as *commanders*, but were great
military men and military thinkers. De Charnay, William Marshall, King Rene,
Sunzi, Geoffrey de Buillon, etc.

In Japanese terms -- historically -- The list is longer.

Tenchi Tenno, Masakado, Yoshitsune, Yoritomo, Kiyomori, Takauji, Yoshisada,
Masashige, Tokimune, Shingen, Kansuke, Soun, Nobunaga, Mitsuhide (and ask
"why?"), Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, Naomasa, Masamune, and a whole pile of others,
including some names most people probably never have heard.


Tony

Brendan Lawrence wrote:

> Fourth, Attila the Hun. He hasn't gotten a mention at all so I thought that
> he should. He had undoubtedly made an impact on the European continent
> between 950-953 AD, when the Roman Empire was falling. He would have beaten
> the Turks to pillaging Constantinople if he didn't have the appropriate
> siege weapons to break down the heavily fortified walls. The Turks took care
> of that a few hundred years later. However, the effort on Attila's part was
> not wasted. It did allow him to establish his empire and therefore allow his
> efforts to be focused on the west - ie Gaul etc.
>
> Fifth, Genghis Khan, who undoubtedly had invaded more land than any other
> invader to date. No other military leader had achieved such a feat even to
> this day. Had've Genghis not died then it is possible that Europe would have
> had a different destiny.
>

I'd considered Genghis, Attila, Saladin, and a whole pile of others. But I have
nothing I'd want to talk to them about, or ask... nothing off the top of my head. My
list is a combination of people I greatly admire and would like to meet, and people
whose campaigns I'm curious about.

It didn't occur to me to list people like Stalin and Churchill as I was thinking of
them more as general bigbosses, rather than commanders in the field. Probably a
shortsighted view, but...

Tony

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

>> >
> > Which Military leader would you like to meet and
> talk with.
> >
>
> Oooooh, now *THAT'S* a question.
>
> And a few others we don't typically think of as
> *commanders*, but were great
> military men and military thinkers. De Charnay,
> William Marshall, King Rene,
> Sunzi, Geoffrey de Buillon, etc.

Clausewitz?

>
> In Japanese terms -- historically -- The list is
> longer.
>
> Tenchi Tenno, Masakado, Yoshitsune, Yoritomo,
> Kiyomori, Takauji, Yoshisada,
> Masashige, Tokimune, Shingen, Kansuke, Soun,
> Nobunaga, Mitsuhide (and ask
> "why?"), Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, Naomasa, Masamune, and a
> whole pile of others,
> including some names most people probably never have
> heard.
>
>
> Tony
>

Tony, I think you'd also want to talk with Jiro the
ashigaru gunner! I'd just want to hang out and listen
to the master speak, hoping I could catch enough
"bungo"...

Nate

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> Clausewitz?

Oh, HELL yeah. Who wouldn't? I'd even bring the brandy and cigars!

> Tony, I think you'd also want to talk with Jiro the
> ashigaru gunner! I'd just want to hang out and listen
> to the master speak, hoping I could catch enough
> "bungo"...

LOL! Frankly, yes. The tacticians and strategists I definitely want to talk
to. But how could you *not* talk to the guys in the trenches? The greatest
tactician is nothing if the only army he commands is a chessboard, and his
soldiers can't or won't fight.

I think of it this way: The generals write the titles and chapter headings,
while the soldiers actually fill in the individual paragraphs.

The trouble is, *most* people don't want to read stories about the little
guy; they want sweeping tales of battle where the "little guy" is a
regiment.

Tony

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> >
> > Clausewitz?
>
> Oh, HELL yeah. Who wouldn't? I'd even bring the
> brandy and cigars!
>
> > Tony, I think you'd also want to talk with Jiro
> the
> > ashigaru gunner! I'd just want to hang out and
> listen
> > to the master speak, hoping I could catch enough
> > "bungo"...
>
> LOL! Frankly, yes. The tacticians and strategists I
> definitely want to talk
> to. But how could you *not* talk to the guys in the
> trenches? The greatest
> tactician is nothing if the only army he commands is
> a chessboard, and his
> soldiers can't or won't fight.

This is giving me much needed relief from diagraming
Krasnovian Mech Inf BN's defending in sector...

Yeah, I find I learn more from "Joe" than from anybody
who outranks me. "Joe" has as much to give to a
leader/commander as the leader/commander has to give
to him, and if the commander gives of himself, "Joe"
will do anything for him. You could have the best
PLAN, but if you don't have the tools to execute...

>
> I think of it this way: The generals write the
> titles and chapter headings,
> while the soldiers actually fill in the individual
> paragraphs.

Or for you football fans, the general diagrams the
plays, the "Joes" run the ball.

>
> The trouble is, *most* people don't want to read
> stories about the little
> guy; they want sweeping tales of battle where the
> "little guy" is a
> regiment.
>

That's too bad, because a. some of the most
interesting stories of war are at the battalion level
and below...usually down in the companies and squads.
b. Small unit actions are what wins wars...you don't
win house to house, you never take the key objectives
that accomplish the general's operational goals.

Nate

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Tony,
Great names, I had never even thought of Tenno, or Naomasa. When I read your list I almost kicked myself. Don't forget Kato Kiyomasa, or even more interesting would be Date Masamune.
Musashi
"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote: robbroomuk wrote:

> The question could be better phrased (especially for Tony, who I
> agree with)as follows.
>
> Which Military leader would you like to meet and talk with.
>

Oooooh, now *THAT'S* a question.

There's a whole pile of them.

David. Leonidas. Alexander. Caesar. Belisarius. Charlemagne ("Big Chuck").
Edward I, Henry V, Aleksandr Nevskiy, Lee, Longstreet, Gordon of Khartoum,
TE Lawrence, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Mosby, Chamberlain, Buford, Pershing,
Whittlesy, Patton, Marshall, Clarke, Yamamoto, etc.

And a few others we don't typically think of as *commanders*, but were great
military men and military thinkers. De Charnay, William Marshall, King Rene,
Sunzi, Geoffrey de Buillon, etc.

In Japanese terms -- historically -- The list is longer.

Tenchi Tenno, Masakado, Yoshitsune, Yoritomo, Kiyomori, Takauji, Yoshisada,
Masashige, Tokimune, Shingen, Kansuke, Soun, Nobunaga, Mitsuhide (and ask
"why?"), Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, Naomasa, Masamune, and a whole pile of others,
including some names most people probably never have heard.


Tony


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ok, now that I have read the question properly I will answer this.

I would definitely hop into a time machine and go back to Munich in the
early 1930's. I will undoubtedly meet Hitler and with a samurai sword, I
would either kill him or make him commit seppuku. Some of you might frown or
grin with irony at this but hey that's my opinion :)

Brendan

Hope I don't incur too much wrath for including one
who lead a huge number of men, served a cruel
dictator, but also suffered for his popularity,
Marshal Zhukov .
Not my preferred "greatest" but worthy of mention all
the same .
Michael Lorimer

Hi,my choice is Saika Magoichi.Probably some of members here know him.

He was the leader of Saika army, which has lots of firepower and
helped Honganji temple through the battles with Nobunaga.He was a
mysteryous person,whose real name is not sure.But many say Suzuki
Shigehide or his brother Shigetomo is him.Many kagemusha of him seems
to have existed.Saika army is said to be some kind of ninja.They have
many tanegashima and experienced riflemen.Nobunaga had the hardest
time in the battled with them.

I don't think all of the tactics in the battle of Nagashino are
Nobunaga's invention.Probably he was inspired a lot by the tactics of
Saika.

After the ceasefire between Nobunaga and Honganji,Saika kept on
fighting with Nobunaga.And after Nobunaga's death, they still battled
with Hideyoshi.
Though Saika surrenderd to Hideyoshi's massive power,he was higly
evaluated as a commander and rifleman.He became a retainer of
Toyotomi Hidenaga,Hideyoshi's brother.

And after Ieyasu took power,he hired Saika as a riflemaster of
shogunate.

The fact he survived shows what an excelent military man he was!



In addition to him, here is my list;

Kusunoki masashige,Sanada Yukimura(I am an Osaka resident.They are
the Heroes of Osaka),Hideyoshi(By the time he united Japan),Uesugi
Kenshin, Takenaka Hanbei,Date Masamune,Minamoto no Tametomo,Tachibana
Dousetsu, Tachibana Muneshige, Maeda Keijirou

As a SSgt in the USAF you guys are going o make me cry.

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@y..., Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Clausewitz?
> >
> > Oh, HELL yeah. Who wouldn't? I'd even bring the
> > brandy and cigars!
> >
> > > Tony, I think you'd also want to talk with Jiro
> > the
> > > ashigaru gunner! I'd just want to hang out and
> > listen
> > > to the master speak, hoping I could catch enough
> > > "bungo"...
> >
> > LOL! Frankly, yes. The tacticians and strategists I
> > definitely want to talk
> > to. But how could you *not* talk to the guys in the
> > trenches? The greatest
> > tactician is nothing if the only army he commands is
> > a chessboard, and his
> > soldiers can't or won't fight.
>
> This is giving me much needed relief from diagraming
> Krasnovian Mech Inf BN's defending in sector...
>
> Yeah, I find I learn more from "Joe" than from anybody
> who outranks me. "Joe" has as much to give to a
> leader/commander as the leader/commander has to give
> to him, and if the commander gives of himself, "Joe"
> will do anything for him. You could have the best
> PLAN, but if you don't have the tools to execute...
>
> >
> > I think of it this way: The generals write the
> > titles and chapter headings,
> > while the soldiers actually fill in the individual
> > paragraphs.
>
> Or for you football fans, the general diagrams the
> plays, the "Joes" run the ball.
>
> >
> > The trouble is, *most* people don't want to read
> > stories about the little
> > guy; they want sweeping tales of battle where the
> > "little guy" is a
> > regiment.
> >
>
> That's too bad, because a. some of the most
> interesting stories of war are at the battalion level
> and below...usually down in the companies and squads.
> b. Small unit actions are what wins wars...you don't
> win house to house, you never take the key objectives
> that accomplish the general's operational goals.
>
> Nate
>
>

__________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/

erik baker wrote:

> Tony,
> Great names, I had never even thought of Tenno, or Naomasa. When I read your list I almost kicked myself. Don't forget Kato Kiyomasa, or even more interesting would be Date Masamune.

Actually Tenchi Tenno is particularly interesting. He was the last emperor to wear armour and take to the field, after all.


Tony

Airforce? What does the Air Force have to do with the
military?



Nate

--- midorinotoradesu <BKIRKHAM@...> wrote:

> As a SSgt in the USAF you guys are going o make me
> cry.
>
> Brandon
> --- In samuraihistory@y..., Nate Ledbetter
>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Clausewitz?
> > >
> > > Oh, HELL yeah. Who wouldn't? I'd even bring the
> > > brandy and cigars!
> > >
> > > > Tony, I think you'd also want to talk with
> Jiro
> > > the
> > > > ashigaru gunner! I'd just want to hang out and
> > > listen
> > > > to the master speak, hoping I could catch
> enough
> > > > "bungo"...
> > >
> > > LOL! Frankly, yes. The tacticians and
> strategists I
> > > definitely want to talk
> > > to. But how could you *not* talk to the guys in
> the
> > > trenches? The greatest
> > > tactician is nothing if the only army he
> commands is
> > > a chessboard, and his
> > > soldiers can't or won't fight.
> >
> > This is giving me much needed relief from
> diagraming
> > Krasnovian Mech Inf BN's defending in sector...
> >
> > Yeah, I find I learn more from "Joe" than from
> anybody
> > who outranks me. "Joe" has as much to give to a
> > leader/commander as the leader/commander has to
> give
> > to him, and if the commander gives of himself,
> "Joe"
> > will do anything for him. You could have the best
> > PLAN, but if you don't have the tools to
> execute...
> >
> > >
> > > I think of it this way: The generals write the
> > > titles and chapter headings,
> > > while the soldiers actually fill in the
> individual
> > > paragraphs.
> >
> > Or for you football fans, the general diagrams the
> > plays, the "Joes" run the ball.
> >
> > >
> > > The trouble is, *most* people don't want to read
> > > stories about the little
> > > guy; they want sweeping tales of battle where
> the
> > > "little guy" is a
> > > regiment.
> > >
> >
> > That's too bad, because a. some of the most
> > interesting stories of war are at the battalion
> level
> > and below...usually down in the companies and
> squads.
> > b. Small unit actions are what wins wars...you
> don't
> > win house to house, you never take the key
> objectives
> > that accomplish the general's operational goals.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Oh Yeah?!? (That's my snappy come back).

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@y..., Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Airforce? What does the Air Force have to do with the
> military?
>
>
>
> Nate
>
> --- midorinotoradesu wrote:
> > As a SSgt in the USAF you guys are going o make me
> > cry.
> >
> > Brandon
> > --- In samuraihistory@y..., Nate Ledbetter
> >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> > > > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Clausewitz?
> > > >
> > > > Oh, HELL yeah. Who wouldn't? I'd even bring the
> > > > brandy and cigars!
> > > >
> > > > > Tony, I think you'd also want to talk with
> > Jiro
> > > > the
> > > > > ashigaru gunner! I'd just want to hang out and
> > > > listen
> > > > > to the master speak, hoping I could catch
> > enough
> > > > > "bungo"...
> > > >
> > > > LOL! Frankly, yes. The tacticians and
> > strategists I
> > > > definitely want to talk
> > > > to. But how could you *not* talk to the guys in
> > the
> > > > trenches? The greatest
> > > > tactician is nothing if the only army he
> > commands is
> > > > a chessboard, and his
> > > > soldiers can't or won't fight.
> > >
> > > This is giving me much needed relief from
> > diagraming
> > > Krasnovian Mech Inf BN's defending in sector...
> > >
> > > Yeah, I find I learn more from "Joe" than from
> > anybody
> > > who outranks me. "Joe" has as much to give to a
> > > leader/commander as the leader/commander has to
> > give
> > > to him, and if the commander gives of himself,
> > "Joe"
> > > will do anything for him. You could have the best
> > > PLAN, but if you don't have the tools to
> > execute...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I think of it this way: The generals write the
> > > > titles and chapter headings,
> > > > while the soldiers actually fill in the
> > individual
> > > > paragraphs.
> > >
> > > Or for you football fans, the general diagrams the
> > > plays, the "Joes" run the ball.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > The trouble is, *most* people don't want to read
> > > > stories about the little
> > > > guy; they want sweeping tales of battle where
> > the
> > > > "little guy" is a
> > > > regiment.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's too bad, because a. some of the most
> > > interesting stories of war are at the battalion
> > level
> > > and below...usually down in the companies and
> > squads.
> > > b. Small unit actions are what wins wars...you
> > don't
> > > win house to house, you never take the key
> > objectives
> > > that accomplish the general's operational goals.
> > >
> > > Nate
> > >
> > >
> >

__________________________________________________

> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
>
>

__________________________________________________

> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Who else here would like to challenge Nobunaga or Sun tzu to a game of chess? or a multiplayer on Total War?

Who thinks they would win?

Lee



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalised at My Yahoo!.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As a man with the battle experience of a doorknob on a
midwestern church, I'd love to play chess or Total war with them.
I can handle being stomped by some of the greatest military
minds in history. Would I want to fight a battle with them? Hell
NO!!!
Being a genius at a strategic game would simply make one
overconfident and that would be your downfall. The marks of a
great military mind, include the abilities to; read the motivations
of others, to be able to manipulate them to your will, and if they
choose not to bend to your will, force them into another pit that
you have made for them. Can I do any of that?
The answer is no again. I'd have to lie, cheat, and steal (E.G.
Modern Military assets at my disposal but not at thiers). Then
and only then would I even stand a glimmer of hope. Maybe I'm
just a retard but I wouldn't even be able to keep my cool ..I'd
probably pull a Katsuyori. :P

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@y..., lee thompson
wrote:

>
> Who else here would like to challenge Nobunaga or Sun tzu to

a game of chess? or a multiplayer on Total War?

>
> Who thinks they would win?
>
> Lee
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalised at My Yahoo!.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Who else here would like to challenge Nobunaga or Sun tzu to a game
of chess? or a multiplayer on Total War?

Who thinks they would win?

Lee

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi

Yeah I too would love to challenge Sun-Tzu or Nobunaga to a game of
chess or Total war, I think Sun-Tzu would feel more at home with
Romance of the Kingdoms series, and Nobunaga with Nobunaga's ambition
by Koei though (more realistic sorry EA).

I love Shogun Total war but Now after I think 3 years ofplaying
I am wanting more from the ronin clans (not in history but anyway), I
notice in the latest version they have the Mogami, Date, Ouchi,
Miyoshi etc the list goes on, I think they should use the maps from
www.Samurai-archives as these are by far the best maps I have seen in
a long time, except maybe from the Cambridge classical history of
Japan, but these cost £80 a shot and I'm only a Daimyo of about 3
koku. But I have an armoury yeyyy and one spear Dojo, arrgghh the
ikko-iki already.

Anyway now for something completly different, back to the
question I would like to play chess with these guys but not Shogi
(Japanese Chess) or Chinese chess xiangQi. Has anyone out there
played it, very complicated, you sometimes can't move your pieces
backwards (Very Bushido me thinks) allthough the names of the pieces
in Kanji are fantastic Drunk Elephant, Treacherous fox, strutting
crow, (This is shogi historical variants quoted from many games ;)

When I saw Crouching tiger Hidden Dragon I really found the names
fascinating this goes one step beyond, surely madness you might
think, but it really works. I urge everyone to check out
http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?name=Shogi+Variants it has a
copy of Shogi variants with shogi from each period, historically
relevant, to Japan from the
Heian period through Sengoku, Monoyama, Meiji, Modern. Awesome, also
if not get international Karate and sumo Hoppers, both Classics, very
old school.

But seriously Shogi is fantastic, and it can help you get into
the mind set of a warrior of these days, as they would have played
this or Go as a strategic exercise. Check out Mr A.J Bryant's cool
site at www.geocities.com/sengokudaimyo/miscellany/miscellany.html to
find out more. On a last note, I personally see Nobunaga as a
brutish, boring, unispiring leader, Akechi Mitsuhide on the other
hand he sounds cool, why did he kill Nobunaga, (I think I would have
done the same maybe I have a ruthless streak??!!(^_^)*** Nobunaga
wanted to become King so to speak Akechi he was just a pawn,
sometimes, pawns take kings, (Shogi again) Just look at Hideyoshi now
theres a Maneki Neko (Lucky cat) I would have liked to have known and
fought beside.

Again check out Shogi I'm sure you will find it useful, if only for
the history, I really enjoy it, except you sometimes can't move
backwards, this would never work in Total war as how the ##### do I
take a bridge province using 1 unit of Spearmen without fake
retreating. XiangQi Chinese chess has a river through the middle of
the board maybe I should study this a bit more.

All the best Mark

In chess like life there are many riskes you'll have to take. If i was
fighting them..............well i to be honest i wouldnt even look at them
in anyway what so ever, but to spend some times wit them i know i would
learn alot.

>From: "midorinotoradesu" <BKIRKHAM@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: If you could be a great Military leader how
>would you be?
>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 06:56:32 -0000
>
>As a man with the battle experience of a doorknob on a
>midwestern church, I'd love to play chess or Total war with them.
>I can handle being stomped by some of the greatest military
>minds in history. Would I want to fight a battle with them? Hell
>NO!!!
>Being a genius at a strategic game would simply make one
>overconfident and that would be your downfall. The marks of a
>great military mind, include the abilities to; read the motivations
>of others, to be able to manipulate them to your will, and if they
>choose not to bend to your will, force them into another pit that
>you have made for them. Can I do any of that?
>The answer is no again. I'd have to lie, cheat, and steal (E.G.
>Modern Military assets at my disposal but not at thiers). Then
>and only then would I even stand a glimmer of hope. Maybe I'm
>just a retard but I wouldn't even be able to keep my cool ..I'd
>probably pull a Katsuyori. :P
>
>Brandon
>--- In samuraihistory@y..., lee thompson
>wrote:
> >
> > Who else here would like to challenge Nobunaga or Sun tzu to
>a game of chess? or a multiplayer on Total War?
> >
> > Who thinks they would win?
> >
> > Lee
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalised at My Yahoo!.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

Hi

thats an easy one

I would as Sun Tsu wouldnt know how to plug a PC in
(LOL)

Paul