Minamoto & Taira

OK, so both Minamoto & Taira were honorary surnames awarded by the
Emperor, but was there any logic in why some men received the surname
Minamoto and others Taira? Were the surnames passed down to their
children automatically, or did their children still require to be
awarded the name by the Emperor?

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--- "Haynes, A (Angus)" <angus.haynes@...>
wrote:

> OK, so both Minamoto & Taira were honorary surnames
> awarded by the
> Emperor, but was there any logic in why some men
> received the surname
> Minamoto and others Taira? Were the surnames passed
> down to their
> children automatically, or did their children still
> require to be
> awarded the name by the Emperor?

They weren't *honorary* surnames. The Minamoto family
was descended from a son of the Emperor Suwa who took
the name "Minamoto". Hence them also being referred to
as the "Suwa Genji", Genji being how you read the
characters for "Minamoto family".

The Taira clan was descended from a grandson of
Emperor Kammu, who took the name. "Taira" can also be
read "Hei", and you often see them referred to as the
"Heike" (Taira House) or the "Heishi" (Taira Family).
The most influential branch of the Taira originated in
Ise, so you see them referred to as the Ise Heike
often.

Bottom line, the Emperor didn't just go out and say
"Poof, you're now a Minamoto" or "Shazzam, you're now
a Taira". You weren't given these names like titles,
for a "job well done". These were hereditary family
names--you simply didn't just "become" a Minamoto or a
Taira. Same with the Fujiwara--Toyotomi Hideyoshi had
to arrange to be adopted by a Fujiwara nobleman, to
give legitimacy to his title of Kampaku. Tokugawa
Ieyasu had several family tree charts drawn up to
support claims of descent from either the Minamoto,
Taira, or Fujiwara, as the situation
dictated--everyone is taught that the Tokugawa were
descended from the Minamoto because that was state
orthodoxy for 200 years, to legitamize the Tokugawa
bakufu.

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--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
These were hereditary family

> names--you simply didn't just "become" a Minamoto or
> a Taira. Same with the Fujiwara--Toyotomi Hideyoshi
> had to arrange to be adopted by a Fujiwara nobleman,

to give legitimacy to his title of Kampaku. Tokugawa
Ieyasu had several family tree charts drawn up to
support claims of descent from either the Minamoto,
Taira, or Fujiwara, as the situation

> dictated--everyone is taught that the Tokugawa were
> descended from the Minamoto because that was state
> orthodoxy for 200 years, to legitamize the Tokugawa
> bakufu.

Sorry, realized I needed to clarify the above point.
Hideyoshi couldn't simply have been "named" a Fujiwara
or Minamoto or whatever--he had to contrive a scenario
where he legitimately became one. It wasn't the
Emperor who made him a "Fujiwara", it was his adoption
into the family. Similarly, nobody could "make" Ieyasu
a Minamoto--he had to concoct a family history that
"proved" he was one by birth, whether it was true or
not. Both were fairly inventive about how they did it,
in my opinion.

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*Nate's excellent reply snipped*

Thanks for that great response! I had wondered why there were so many
Minamoto and Taira in the history books, and it was a Wikipedia article
on 'Minamoto' that I was looking at earlier that stated that the name
was honorary... proving once again to take all Wikipedia articles with a
grain of salt...

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--- "Haynes, A (Angus)" <angus.haynes@...>
wrote:

> *Nate's excellent reply snipped*
>
> Thanks for that great response! I had wondered why
> there were so many
> Minamoto and Taira in the history books, and it was
> a Wikipedia article
> on 'Minamoto' that I was looking at earlier that
> stated that the name
> was honorary... proving once again to take all
> Wikipedia articles with a
> grain of salt...

Interestingly enough, I had to go to a Wikipedia
article to jog my memory on the Emperor the Taira were
primarily descended from--I couldn't remember Kammu,
for some reason.

Wikipedia is great for fast, shallow knowledge, but
you do need to take it with a grain of salt.
Unfortunately, like many people here who have read a
lot for pleasure but not for research, it'd hard for
me to remember where I read what :)

When in doubt, I plead with Tony to give me a source.
Or I just use him, and the blame goes his way.

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It is not entirely untrue to say that they were honorary. Many swordsmiths
incorporate Fujiwara, as well as Minamoto and occasionaly Taira into their
signatures when signing swords even in modern times. For instance I have a
sword signed Minamoto Yoshimune dated 1941 but Yoshimune's actual family
name was Takahashi. There seems no connection with the original families of
these prestigious names.
Clive Sinclaire

----- Original Message -----
From: "Haynes, A (Angus)" <angus.haynes@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 1:53 AM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Minamoto & Taira


> *Nate's excellent reply snipped*
>
> Thanks for that great response! I had wondered why there were so many
> Minamoto and Taira in the history books, and it was a Wikipedia article
> on 'Minamoto' that I was looking at earlier that stated that the name
> was honorary... proving once again to take all Wikipedia articles with a
> grain of salt...
>
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> This email, including any attachments, may be confidential or privileged,
and is sent for the personal attention of the intended recipient. If you
have received this email in error, please delete it immediately . The views
expressed are not necessarily those of the Rabobank Group. The Group is not
liable for the effects of any virus which may be contained in this email.
> _____________________________________________________________
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
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--- Clive Sinclaire <CSinclaire@...> wrote:

> It is not entirely untrue to say that they were
> honorary. Many swordsmiths
> incorporate Fujiwara, as well as Minamoto and
> occasionaly Taira into their
> signatures when signing swords even in modern times.

In the context of the question, it is true. The
question was about awarding of the name by the
Emperor.

> For instance I have a
> sword signed Minamoto Yoshimune dated 1941 but
> Yoshimune's actual family
> name was Takahashi. There seems no connection with
> the original families of
> these prestigious names.
> Clive Sinclaire

The fact that swordsmiths use the Minamoto or Fujiwara
name doesn't mean it's an "honorary" title given to
them by some authoritative figure. You'll have to
provide more information than that--WHY do these
swordsmiths use the names? Did they just decide to, or
did someone from the families lend them the name, or
adopt them, or some such? You'd have to show me some
evidence that the Emperor "granted" these swordsmiths
the names for it to contradict my point. There are
umpteen "Bizen no kami" swordsmiths, but none of them
actually governed the province--I think the topic of
swordsmiths is ancillary to what Angus was trying to
ask.

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Nate
Of course you are right, I wasn't suggesting that such names were given with
Imperial sanction as they were clearly not. I was merely responding to
Angus's point about there being so many with these names. As far as I can
ascertain, swordsmiths merely adopted these names, incorperating them into
their mei at will, sometimes even using more than one at different times.
I will go back to "lurking" and keeping my head down now.
Regards
Clive

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nate Ledbetter" <ltdomer98@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 2:06 AM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Minamoto & Taira


>
> --- "Haynes, A (Angus)" <angus.haynes@...>
> wrote:
> > *Nate's excellent reply snipped*
> >
> > Thanks for that great response! I had wondered why
> > there were so many
> > Minamoto and Taira in the history books, and it was
> > a Wikipedia article
> > on 'Minamoto' that I was looking at earlier that
> > stated that the name
> > was honorary... proving once again to take all
> > Wikipedia articles with a
> > grain of salt...
>
> Interestingly enough, I had to go to a Wikipedia
> article to jog my memory on the Emperor the Taira were
> primarily descended from--I couldn't remember Kammu,
> for some reason.
>
> Wikipedia is great for fast, shallow knowledge, but
> you do need to take it with a grain of salt.
> Unfortunately, like many people here who have read a
> lot for pleasure but not for research, it'd hard for
> me to remember where I read what :)
>
> When in doubt, I plead with Tony to give me a source.
> Or I just use him, and the blame goes his way.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Clive Sinclaire <CSinclaire@...> wrote:

> Nate
> Of course you are right, I wasn't suggesting that
> such names were given with
> Imperial sanction as they were clearly not. I was
> merely responding to
> Angus's point about there being so many with these
> names. As far as I can
> ascertain, swordsmiths merely adopted these names,
> incorperating them into
> their mei at will, sometimes even using more than
> one at different times.
> I will go back to "lurking" and keeping my head down
> now.
> Regards
> Clive

No need to keep your head down, Clive--heck, we rely
on you whenever anyone asks ANYTHING about swords (You
and Carlo, that is). I'm simply a stickler for
precision when answering someone's question, and while
introducing new info (ie. about the swordsmiths taking
the names) is good and adds to the discussion, it
helps if you give it the proper context so as not to
confuse the questioner.

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> When in doubt, I plead with Tony to give me a source.
> Or I just use him, and the blame goes his way.

Ah HA!!!

TOny

--

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> They weren't *honorary* surnames. The Minamoto family
> was descended from a son of the Emperor Suwa who took
> the name "Minamoto". Hence them also being referred to
> as the "Suwa Genji", Genji being how you read the
> characters for "Minamoto family".

Actually, the sons of several emperors. There were the Seiwa Genji, the Saga
Genji, the Murakami Genji, etc. Don't recall a Suwa Genji.

Tony

--

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
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Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
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--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
>
> >
> > They weren't *honorary* surnames. The Minamoto
> family
> > was descended from a son of the Emperor Suwa who
> took
> > the name "Minamoto". Hence them also being
> referred to
> > as the "Suwa Genji", Genji being how you read the
> > characters for "Minamoto family".
>
> Actually, the sons of several emperors. There were
> the Seiwa Genji, the Saga
> Genji, the Murakami Genji, etc. Don't recall a Suwa
> Genji.
>
> Tony

DANG IT! I meant Seiwa, not Suwa. Must have been
looking at lakes in Shinano recently, or something :)


Nate

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> DANG IT! I meant Seiwa, not Suwa. Must have been
> looking at lakes in Shinano recently, or something :)

Thou suckest.

Tony

--

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > DANG IT! I meant Seiwa, not Suwa. Must have been
> > looking at lakes in Shinano recently, or something
> :)
>
> Thou suckest.
>
> Tony

I didn't mean in reality--though my plans to go to
Nagano at the end of May changed to plans to go to
Nagoya. (Expo and see the hostfam).

On the other hand, since I'm leaving for Hawaii
tomorrow for a week....this whole "business trip"
thing really sucks...:)

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> I didn't mean in reality--though my plans to go to
> Nagano at the end of May changed to plans to go to
> Nagoya. (Expo and see the hostfam).

Grrr.

> On the other hand, since I'm leaving for Hawaii
> tomorrow for a week....this whole "business trip"
> thing really sucks...:)

Okay, NOW you're on the list.

Tony

--

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Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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