SWORD

Hi there everyone:

This is a technical question about the shape of Samurai swords. I've
noticed that the earliest swords were straight but later ones up to
preMeijei period were curved. Someone once told me (now I'm not gonna'
say who in case they're wrong) that the tachi were curved due to the
folding and cooling process. So actually the curving was supposed to a
fluke or something, that's what I was told, it's not what I'm saying.

What do you guys think. Can anybody verify this or is it just bunk?

Thanks,
Rod

Rod et al-
A skilled smith ultimately has control over all aspects of
the finished product. Keeping that in mind the combination of hard
edge steel and a softer spine along with differential heating
produces curvature in the Japanese sword. Actually it is the cooling
that does it, when the sword is heated in the fire the clay keeps the
back of the sword relatively cool so it doesn't expand as much as the
unprotected edge steel. The edge steel expands, the back does not and
this produces curve, the sword is then "flash frozen" in this state
by dropping it in water. The smith gives his sword more or less curve
(before yakiire) depending on the shape he wants (more or less sori)
in the finished piece. He can adjust the curve in other ways after
yakiire as well.
The combination of different steels and use of clay as
insulation may have been an experiment at some point that
unexpectedly produced curve in a straight blade, so at that early
stage at least could be said to have been a happy accident...
-t
www.ncjsc.org

Hi Rod,

I'd just like to add to Tom's explanation, that friends of mine who are
or have been professional swordsmiths making straight European blades
here in England, tell me that trying to stop one from bending is the
hard thing. Any imperfections in forging a symmetrical blade, tends to
cause it to bend. A problem that has to be then corrected. I am told
that some of my swords have come from the hardening and tempering
process looking like cork-screws! The real art is then learning to make
this effect work "for" you rather than against. And I think we can all
agree that the Japanese smiths really know how to make it work "for".

Yours

Dean
***

In message , tom helm mon.com> writes

> Rod et al-
> ����� A skilled smith ultimately has control over all aspects of
> the finished product. Keeping that in mind the combination of hard
> edge steel and a softer spine along with differential heating
> produces curvature in the Japanese sword. Actually it is the
> cooling
> that does it, when the sword is heated in the fire the clay keeps
> the
> back of the sword relatively cool so it doesn't expand as much as
> the
> unprotected edge steel. The edge steel expands, the back does not
> and
> this produces curve, the sword is then "flash frozen" in this state
> by dropping it in water. The smith gives his sword more or less
> curve
> (before yakiire) depending on the shape he wants (more or less
> sori)
> in the finished piece. He can adjust the curve in other ways after
> yakiire as well.
> ����� The combination of different steels and use of clay as
> insulation may have been an experiment at some point that
> unexpectedly produced curve  in a straight blade, so at that early
> stage at least could be said to have been a happy accident...
> -t
> www.ncjsc.org
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
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Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hi all -

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to the happy accident -
try selling a 'bent' sword to a client who's commissioned it!
Also the shape of the blade determines its dynamic - so this
would require someone stumbling upon the curved blade by accident,
and then working out the technique of its usage?

However, if warriors (and smiths) had experienced the superiority
of the curved blade over the straight, then the benefits would have
been self-evident.

According to a quick look round online, the Japanese came into
contact with curved blades via Korea as well as the native Emishi -
certainly as I understand it they learnt advanced forging techniques
from the Koreans.

Thomas

Tom, Rod et al
Not sure that I subscribe to the "happy accident" theory as there were
definte efforts to produce sori from early (pre Heian jidai) days. It seems
that as sori was first introduced in the nakago area(where there is no clay)
this must have been intentional. Of course I agree with you that a skilled
swordsmith has control over all aspects of sword making being able to
control and dictate the kind of sori at will (saki-soroi, koshisori etc.)
As to Rod's original question, only very early swords were straight (Nara
period and earlier) and mostly these were not thought to be of Japanese
manufacture but imported from the Asian mainland along with the technology.
The true Japanese sword as we would recognise it today, was perfected in the
Heian period and is still made today, well after Meiji. Also both tachi and
katana are made basically the same way, although the shape of tachi tend to
be more slender and graceful than most katana (gross generalisation and
oversimplification!)
Regards
Clive Sinclaire
www.to-ken.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "tom helm" <junkmail@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 4:45 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] SWORD


>
> Rod et al-
> A skilled smith ultimately has control over all aspects of
> the finished product. Keeping that in mind the combination of hard
> edge steel and a softer spine along with differential heating
> produces curvature in the Japanese sword. Actually it is the cooling
> that does it, when the sword is heated in the fire the clay keeps the
> back of the sword relatively cool so it doesn't expand as much as the
> unprotected edge steel. The edge steel expands, the back does not and
> this produces curve, the sword is then "flash frozen" in this state
> by dropping it in water. The smith gives his sword more or less curve
> (before yakiire) depending on the shape he wants (more or less sori)
> in the finished piece. He can adjust the curve in other ways after
> yakiire as well.
> The combination of different steels and use of clay as
> insulation may have been an experiment at some point that
> unexpectedly produced curve in a straight blade, so at that early
> stage at least could be said to have been a happy accident...
> -t
> www.ncjsc.org
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
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> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Clive et al-
Rod asked if the "Happy accident" idea was complete hooey. I
might have said "not completely" and left it at that. As we know from
Ogasawara Sensei and the fine exhibition at the Sanno Museum; the
shape and construction of the early Japanese warabite-to combined
with continental swordmaking techniques to give us the Wan-to
(Japanese sword).
Part of that process was combining different steels and
learning to control the curvature in a blade sometimes over thirty
inches in length. The explanation for the presence of uchisori
(reverse curve at the tip) on tanto, as given to me, is that the
smiths, understanding that the blade would curve on yaki-ire, made
their blades with reverse curve. A little too much and the blade
would still have a hint of that reverse curve when finished, done
just right the sori produced when the blade was heated and cooled
produced a perfectly straight blade. As time went on tanto too took
on more curvature.
Now how much of this was experimentation and how much was
application of knowledge learned in the field, I don't think we can
say though later changes in shape show just how quickly popular
styles of construction spread.Favoring the idea that it was work by
design. In fact in my original post I didn't say just where or when
that "happy accident" might have happened. I am more inclined to
believe that it was a Chinese smith who first put a hard edge into a
soft bodied sword and produce curve in the process. The Japanese
either learned it from their neighbors, in which case it was likely
well understood by the time it got to Japan, or they had to "relearn
it" for themselves, getting that curve to "work for them" as Dean
said...
-t

the samurai sword was curved because when you strike it against something, the blows dont hurt as much. try it some time, take a tai chi sword and strike it against something as hard as you can, then take a samurai sword and strike it against something as hard as you can and you can tell the difference of the vibrations that the blade make on your hand. or at least thats what i was tought my whole life.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can not well explain about japanese sword because my english is very poor.
Please read this japanease web site.

My favorite
http://www.hi-net.zaq.ne.jp/osaru/
japanease sword history
http://www.hi-net.zaq.ne.jp/osaru/midokoro.htm


http://www.town.osafune.okayama.jp/token/token.htm
http://www.town.osafune.okayama.jp/token/dekirumade.htm
manga of bizenosahune great sword.
http://www.town.osafune.okayama.jp/token/manga/manga_1.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Pavez" <grfkboyz@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 6:40 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] SWORD


>
>
>
> Hi there everyone:
>
> This is a technical question about the shape of Samurai swords. I've
> noticed that the earliest swords were straight but later ones up to
> preMeijei period were curved. Someone once told me (now I'm not gonna'
> say who in case they're wrong) that the tachi were curved due to the
> folding and cooling process. So actually the curving was supposed to a
> fluke or something, that's what I was told, it's not what I'm saying.
>
> What do you guys think. Can anybody verify this or is it just bunk?
>
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

great website engilish of japanease sword.
http://www.hi-net.zaq.ne.jp/osaru/e_index.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Pavez" <grfkboyz@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 6:40 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] SWORD


>
>
>
> Hi there everyone:
>
> This is a technical question about the shape of Samurai swords. I've
> noticed that the earliest swords were straight but later ones up to
> preMeijei period were curved. Someone once told me (now I'm not gonna'
> say who in case they're wrong) that the tachi were curved due to the
> folding and cooling process. So actually the curving was supposed to a
> fluke or something, that's what I was told, it's not what I'm saying.
>
> What do you guys think. Can anybody verify this or is it just bunk?
>
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Patrick -

You say:
"the samurai sword was curved because when you strike it against
something, the blows dont hurt as much."

Then what would be the point of that?

"try it some time, take a tai chi sword and strike it against
something as hard as you can, then take a samurai sword and strike
it against something as hard as you can and you can tell the
difference of the vibrations that the blade make on your hand."

Strength undoubtedly plays a part (as my Tameshigiri instructor
laughingly told us weak-wristed iaidoka) but technique plays a
far more important part.

A curved blade cuts far more effectively than a straight one, and in
many (if not most) techniques in Japanese swordsmanship, if one
traces an arc following the tip of the blade, the cut is exectuted on
the return - the outward arc is from start point to target, the
return is the cut and withdraw.

In multiple combat or a meleé, this ensures the weapon is always
'free' of the target after the cut, and does not require the
swordsman to disentangle his blade from its victim.

All of which can be done is a single cutting stroke, as opposed to a
straightr blade, which does not lend itself to cutting and which
breaks down into a series of separate actions.

A horizontal thrust, delivered with a curved blade, creates a
devastating wound, compared to a straight blade.

In fact, I think in every aspect a curved blade outperforms a
straight one ... if the reverse was the case, then the samurai would
have favoured straight over curved.

Thomas

Dear Group:
Hi, I am not an expert on sword except for the fact
that I was trained in one of 24 style techniques(sword
technique) from Chosun dynasty when I was in the
middle school.

I only had a chance to read messages on an informal
Korean Martial Arts website with regard to this issue
a few years ago.
(http://cafe.chosun.com/clubmain.do?p_club_id=muye)

There, I found the following:
1) Curved blades were originally adopted by a
Mongolian Army of Chengiskan because of its
superiority over the straight blade in the the
multiple melee in the battlefields.

2) After the Mongol conquest of China and Korea, the
curved blade was naturally introduced to the North
East Asia.
Its benefits were soon recognized in this region.

3) The technique of producing the curved blade is
generally more complex than that of the straight
blade. So, it was not produced until that time.(I do
not know the sepecific period)

4) It may be conceivable that the use of curved blades
were imported to Japan either through Korea or China
afterwards.(again, I do not know the exact period)
But, in about a century later, the superior quality of
the Japanese sword was well known in the North East
Asia.

5) The Chinese traditionally had martial arts teaching
the use of two edged straight sword. After the Mongol
conquest and their numerous skirmishes with the
Japanese pirates on their coast during Mying dynasty
made it popular to teach the use of the one edged
curved sword.

6) People who provided the above information were
professional historians and martial artists in South
Korea. So, I believe that it is a very credible
source. The site is also managed by one of most
popular news paper reportor in South Korea.(the
counterpart of New York Time, Wall Street Journal,
Washington Post, and etc in America)

I hope that this will help some people in the group.




Sincerely,





Changsub Lee


--- Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:

> According to a quick look round online, the Japanese
> came into
> contact with curved blades via Korea as well as the
> native Emishi -
> certainly as I understand it they learnt advanced
> forging techniques
> from the Koreans.
> Thomas
>
> A curved blade cuts far more effectively than a
> straight one, and in
> many (if not most) techniques in Japanese
> swordsmanship, .
>
> In multiple combat or a mele�, this ensures the
> weapon is always
> 'free' of the target after the cut, and does not
> require the
> swordsman to disentangle his blade from its victim.
>

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from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana

.

Cool stuff Changsub,
Thanks.
-t

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sites.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/sites2.htm

I know I have said it before but this is a real clearing house for
info in English (and Japanese). Including articles by our own Clive
Sinclair.
Check it out...
-t
www.ncjsc.org

Hello Thomas,

thank you for discussing this issue with me although i am no expert swords smith, the main point i was trying to make was that the samurai sword was curved for a reason, not by accident. infact i dont know if i mentioned this before, but that is probly why the Ninja were far worse at sword fighting then the samurai that is why i think they always had to be stealth.(as an advantage in fighting). look foward to seeing your reply and opinion on my opinion and one of the things my friends and I have wondered for a while now.

thanks a bunch.
later!




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Hi:
I read you email about how ninja where inferior to samurai when it came to sword fighting, do you mean because of the sword shape?

Bye,
Rod

Patrick Vetrano <ninja_20049@...> wrote:

Hello Thomas,

thank you for discussing this issue with me although i am no expert swords smith, the main point i was trying to make was that the samurai sword was curved for a reason, not by accident. infact i dont know if i mentioned this before, but that is probly why the Ninja were far worse at sword fighting then the samurai that is why i think they always had to be stealth.(as an advantage in fighting). look foward to seeing your reply and opinion on my opinion and one of the things my friends and I have wondered for a while now.

thanks a bunch.
later!




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--- ROD PAVEZ <grfkboyz@...> wrote:

> Hi:
> I read you email about how ninja where inferior to
> samurai when it came to sword fighting, do you mean
> because of the sword shape?

For crying out loud, people! GO READ THE
misconceptions page. 1. 'Ninja' WERE samurai--they
simply did covert ops much like today's Rangers, etc
do covert ops but are still soldiers. Any concept of
'ninja' as separate from samurai and an 'outcast'
class is pure Hollywood myth. 2. There was no
difference in sword shape--the straight 'ninja' sword
is a myth.

Read here before you go any further:

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm












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hello rod,

To answer your question, yes in one way it could have been because of the shape, or simply because the samurai were destand to master at what ever their job in battle was. and i dont know if that being stealth was the ninjas only advantage to winning a battle, like i said, IM NO EXPERT but i plan to talk to some and learn from some. and also maybe its that the ninja didnt belive in many things the samurai did, like its glorious to die in battle. i dont think the ninja thought that, but i have no room to talk bad about the ninja because im training in akido where we are learning about the ninja and how to fight like one.


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Hi:
Actually that's why I asked. I read in the misconceptions link that ninja carried samurai swords since they were samurai. But when I read this email about someone saying that a samurai was the superior fighter because of the sword I had to ask exactly what they meant. Samurai vs nija is really samurai vs. samurai.

later,
Rod

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- ROD PAVEZ <grfkboyz@...> wrote:

> Hi:
> I read you email about how ninja where inferior to
> samurai when it came to sword fighting, do you mean
> because of the sword shape?

For crying out loud, people! GO READ THE
misconceptions page. 1. 'Ninja' WERE samurai--they
simply did covert ops much like today's Rangers, etc
do covert ops but are still soldiers. Any concept of
'ninja' as separate from samurai and an 'outcast'
class is pure Hollywood myth. 2. There was no
difference in sword shape--the straight 'ninja' sword
is a myth.

Read here before you go any further:

http://www.geocities.com/klancesegall/home.htm












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Hi Patrick:
Maybe you should take a look a the samurai misconceptions link attached to the samurai archives homepage. You'll find there that in reality ninja were actually samurai. If you take into consideration that the only class allowed to engage in warfare were the samurai class . There is no such thing a ninja straight sword its Hollywood bunk. The sword a ninja carried was in fact curved because it was a samurai sword carried by a samurai during covert operations.
Later,
Rod
Patrick Vetrano <ninja_20049@...> wrote:



hello rod,

To answer your question, yes in one way it could have been because of the shape, or simply because the samurai were destand to master at what ever their job in battle was. and i dont know if that being stealth was the ninjas only advantage to winning a battle, like i said, IM NO EXPERT but i plan to talk to some and learn from some. and also maybe its that the ninja didnt belive in many things the samurai did, like its glorious to die in battle. i dont think the ninja thought that, but i have no room to talk bad about the ninja because im training in akido where we are learning about the ninja and how to fight like one.


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--- ROD PAVEZ <grfkboyz@...> wrote:

> Hi:
> Actually that's why I asked. I read in the
> misconceptions link that ninja carried samurai
> swords since they were samurai.

Good--at least someone follows the rules and reads
these things.

But when I read this

> email about someone saying that a samurai was the
> superior fighter because of the sword I had to ask
> exactly what they meant. Samurai vs nija is really
> samurai vs. samurai.

Said person is working in a land of misconceptions.
There is no difference in swords, ninja aren't
mystical warriors who ran around in black pajamas, and
people need to go read some actual history books
instead of watching Shogun over and over.








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Quick question. Who was it that wrote the misconceptions link?
-----Original Message-----
From: ROD PAVEZ <grfkboyz@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:59:10
To:samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re SWORD (effectiveness)

Hi Patrick:
Maybe you should take a look a the samurai misconceptions link attached to the samurai archives homepage. You'll find there that in reality ninja were actually samurai. If you take into consideration that the only class allowed to engage in warfare were the samurai class . There is no such thing a ninja straight sword its Hollywood bunk. The sword a ninja carried was in fact curved because it was a samurai sword carried by a samurai during covert operations.
Later,
Rod
Patrick Vetrano <ninja_20049@...> wrote:



hello rod,

To answer your question, yes in one way it could have been because of the shape, or simply because the samurai were destand to master at what ever their job in battle was. and i dont know if that being stealth was the ninjas only advantage to winning a battle, like i said, IM NO EXPERT but i plan to talk to some and learn from some. and also maybe its that the ninja didnt belive in many things the samurai did, like its glorious to die in battle. i dont think the ninja thought that, but i have no room to talk bad about the ninja because im training in akido where we are learning about the ninja and how to fight like one.


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--- "Det. J Monteith" <Renaironin@...>
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>
> Quick question. Who was it that wrote the
> misconceptions link?

One of the members here. Many of the regulars
contributed to it.



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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> --- ROD PAVEZ <grfkboyz@...> wrote:
> > Hi:
> > I read you email about how ninja where inferior to
> > samurai when it came to sword fighting, do you mean
> > because of the sword shape?
>
> For crying out loud, people! GO READ THE
> misconceptions page. 1. 'Ninja' WERE samurai--they
> simply did covert ops much like today's Rangers, etc
> do covert ops but are still soldiers. Any concept of
> 'ninja' as separate from samurai and an 'outcast'
> class is pure Hollywood myth.

Just curious...are they a Hollywood myth or a Tokyo Studios myth? (Or
perhaps a myth from when they wanted to portray Samurai as "Honorable
Warriors"?)

Dan Cooper

>

Hi

If you are refering to the Ninja using straight swords
then I am sorry to tell you that is hollywood fiction
partial created by Stephen Hayes back in the 80's.

It has been proven in and out of the Ninjutsu
communuty that the nInja did not carry or use straight
swords.

one aspect of Hinjutsu is Hensojutsu - disguise. How
could a ninja deisguise himself as a samurai if he was
carrying a straigth sword.

Ninja carried curved swords just like samurai

paul


--- Patrick Vetrano <ninja_20049@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

Hello Thomas,

thank you for discussing this issue with me although i
am no expert swords smith, the main point i was trying
to make was that the samurai sword was curved for a
reason, not by accident. infact i dont know if i
mentioned this before, but that is probly why the
Ninja were far worse at sword fighting then the
samurai that is why i think they always had to be
stealth.(as an advantage in fighting). look foward to
seeing your reply and opinion on my opinion and one of
the things my friends and I have wondered for a while
now.


thanks a
bunch.


later!




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That is correct. Some Ninja swords were little short than the regular Katana but were curved not straight.

Best regards,

Helly

Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:
Hi

If you are refering to the Ninja using straight swords
then I am sorry to tell you that is hollywood fiction
partial created by Stephen Hayes back in the 80's.

It has been proven in and out of the Ninjutsu
communuty that the nInja did not carry or use straight
swords.

one aspect of Hinjutsu is Hensojutsu - disguise. How
could a ninja deisguise himself as a samurai if he was
carrying a straigth sword.

Ninja carried curved swords just like samurai

paul


--- Patrick Vetrano <ninja_20049@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

Hello Thomas,

thank you for discussing this issue with me although i
am no expert swords smith, the main point i was trying
to make was that the samurai sword was curved for a
reason, not by accident. infact i dont know if i
mentioned this before, but that is probly why the
Ninja were far worse at sword fighting then the
samurai that is why i think they always had to be
stealth.(as an advantage in fighting). look foward to
seeing your reply and opinion on my opinion and one of
the things my friends and I have wondered for a while
now.


thanks a
bunch.


later!




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join
the fun.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---
Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store:
http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---



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Hide-
The link to the manga is the coolest, thanks again.
-t