Japanese Samurai History - I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

#6617 [2005-01-24 21:18:54]

I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

by lalaru55

Hello, I'm new here. Nice to meet you all. =)

I have a question. I'm wondering if wasn't permitted for a foreigner
(like a Westerner, or a someone else from another part of Asian)to
become a Samurai? I have nothing against bias issues, but I heard a
rumor that you have to be pure bred Japanese to become a Samurai,
dispite what is portray in Hollywood movies.

Thank you.

[Next #6618]

#6618 [2005-01-24 21:41:14]

Re: [samuraihistory] I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

by ltdomer98

--- La La Ru <lalaru55@...> wrote:

I have a question. I'm wondering if wasn't permitted

> for a foreigner
> (like a Westerner, or a someone else from another
> part of Asian)to
> become a Samurai? I have nothing against bias
> issues, but I heard a
> rumor that you have to be pure bred Japanese to
> become a Samurai,
> dispite what is portray in Hollywood movies.

Well, if you're talking about now, then it doesn't
matter if you're Japanese, European, or Martian--the
samurai class was legislated out of existence in the
late 1800's, so no, not even Japanese can be samurai
anymore. The samurai class doesn't exist.

If you mean back then, then that's a debatable issue.
Many will allege that William Adams, an English ship
pilot, became samurai when he was awarded the title of
hatamoto by Tokugawa Ieyasu. Since technically only
samurai could hold the title, it stands to reason that
he was therefore also made samurai. So there's one
instance. Not many others exist, if at all.

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#6620 [2005-01-25 15:43:17]

Re: I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

by lalaru55

Thank you, I apologize for my poor English. It's not my first
lanuage. I'm from Europe.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- La La Ru wrote:
>
> I have a question. I'm wondering if wasn't permitted
> > for a foreigner
> > (like a Westerner, or a someone else from another
> > part of Asian)to
> > become a Samurai? I have nothing against bias
> > issues, but I heard a
> > rumor that you have to be pure bred Japanese to
> > become a Samurai,
> > dispite what is portray in Hollywood movies.
>
> Well, if you're talking about now, then it doesn't
> matter if you're Japanese, European, or Martian--the
> samurai class was legislated out of existence in the
> late 1800's, so no, not even Japanese can be samurai
> anymore. The samurai class doesn't exist.
>
> If you mean back then, then that's a debatable issue.
> Many will allege that William Adams, an English ship
> pilot, became samurai when he was awarded the title of
> hatamoto by Tokugawa Ieyasu. Since technically only
> samurai could hold the title, it stands to reason that
> he was therefore also made samurai. So there's one
> instance. Not many others exist, if at all.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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#6621 [2005-01-25 20:22:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

by ltdomer98

--- La La Ru <lalaru55@...> wrote:

> Thank you, I apologize for my poor English. It's not
> my first
> lanuage. I'm from Europe.

No need to apologize--you do better than many native
English speakers who make no attempt to communicate
like adults.

I should have mentioned in my previous answer that
there was no list of "Requirements to be a Samurai"
that specified Japanese ethinicity. Post-1590's, The
only requirement to be a samurai was to be born a
member of the samurai class. Very rarely, if ever, was
someone granted "samurai status" as a reward for
service, etc, in the Edo period. Will Adams is an
extremely rare case, even if you ignore the fact that
he wasn't Japanese.

Prior to the Edo period, the line between Samurai and
other classes was much less clear. Samurai could farm,
and peasants could go to war, and some individuals did
both and could have been considered both samurai and
well-to-do peasant.

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#6622 [2005-01-25 20:48:23]

Re: I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

by kurotatsunoshi

"Will Adams is an extremely rare case, even if you ignore the fact
that he wasn't Japanese."
The only other case I know of concerns one of Adam's shipmates-he was
also granted the same status as Will, and in fact was given a larger
estate by Ieyasu. I don't recall his name and since most of my
English language books are at home can't check on it.
There is much debate on whether either of these gents were actually
of samurai status-one of the best treatments on the subject is one of
the essays in "Learning from Shogun:Japanese History And Western
Fantasy" by the University Of California's Department Of Asian
Studies (1980).
But "Samurai Will" was as close as any non-Japanese got to being one!

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#6623 [2005-01-26 18:06:40]

Re: I'm sorry if this question was already asked, but I'd like to know.

by kurotatsunoshi

One of my Japanese sources shows the second European advisor's name
to be the Dutchman Jan Joosten Van Lodensteijn-the present day Yaesu-
cho in Tokyo in named in honor of its Dutch resident.
It also states that there is no documented evidence of either
Lodensteijn or Adams having ever been granted hatamoto stauts-rather,
like other non-military advisors to a daimyo (doctors, priests, etc),
they were classified as hogaimono. Doctors were extended the
privelege of wearing the two swords so I assume Adams was as well.

[Previous #6622] [Next #6627]

#6627 [2005-01-29 19:43:16]

Wow! Randy, thank you.

by lalaru55

Excuse me, but I have to praise your work, Randy. I'm totally
impressed with your research and activities. It's people like you
that give historical studies a good name. You're truly diverse,
adverse, intellegent, and articulate. I'm utterly impressed. If I
were Japanese, I'd be proud of what you are doing. I'm learning so
much so far. I can understand why it's a rule here to be serious and
mature. You the samurai really seriously. Forgive me for not showing
enough respect to you.

[Previous #6623]