Japanese Samurai History - Shimazu Mon & Sashimonos

#6575 [2005-01-20 06:21:49]

Shimazu Mon & Sashimonos

by russcat9

I've seen sashimonos of the Shimazu clan depicting the clan mon and
also the particular lord's personal mon. Which is it?

Also, as I understand it, Shimazu Yoshihisa used a white mon on a
black background for his personal version of the clan mon, while
Shimazu Yoshihiro reversed it. Is this correct?

Would Shimazu samurai and retainers bear the clan mon on their
sashimonos or their lord's personal version?

and then there's this from the Asian War group:

"Turnbull, in his Sourcebook (always handy) reports

Shimazu: white mon of cross in ring on black

Yoshihiro: short red fukinuki (hollow streamer banner) and banner of
white "ju" on black

Retainers' mon vary according to the whim of the lord equipping them.
My impression (just that) is that more personal troops (hatamoto, etc)
would carry a particular lord's banner while more routine troops
(ashigaru) the clan. But remember, samurai retainers often carried
their own insignias!"

So I'm a bit lost. Am about to paint one of two Shimazu armies
(different scales) for DBA, and am wondering just which version is
correct.

Cheers
Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: russcat9 [mailto:snowcat9@h...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:33 AM
To: AsianWar@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AsianWar] Shimazu Sashimonos

I've seen sashimonos of the Shimazu clan depicting the clan mon and
also the particular lord's personal mon. Which is it?

Also, as I understand it, Shimazu Yoshihisa used a white mon on a
black background for his personal version of the clan mon, while
Shimazu Yoshihiro reversed it. Is this correct?

Would Shimazu samurai and retainers bear the clan mon on their
sashimonos or their lord's personal version?

Cheers
Paul

[Next #6576]

#6576 [2005-01-20 15:12:38]

Re: [samuraihistory] Shimazu Mon & Sashimonos

by ltdomer98

--- russcat9 <snowcat9@...> wrote:

> Would Shimazu samurai and retainers bear the clan
> mon on their
> sashimonos or their lord's personal version?

Shimazu specifically, I don't know. Usually it
depended on the personal loyalties of that particular
soldier--if he was a personal retainer of, say,
Iehisa, he could potentially where a device specific
to Iehisa. But more often than not it'd be a general
device. The Hojo are the best example of this, I
think--all the Hojo bigwigs used the same fish-scale
mon, in different colors to identify their
contingents.

>
> and then there's this from the Asian War group:
>
> "Turnbull, in his Sourcebook (always handy) reports
>
> Shimazu: white mon of cross in ring on black
>
> Yoshihiro: short red fukinuki (hollow streamer
> banner) and banner of
> white "ju" on black
>
>
> Retainers' mon vary according to the whim of the
> lord equipping them.
> My impression (just that) is that more personal
> troops (hatamoto, etc)
> would carry a particular lord's banner while more
> routine troops
> (ashigaru) the clan. But remember, samurai retainers
> often carried
> their own insignias!"

The standard described by Turnbull there for Yoshihiro
isn't what his soldiers wore--it was HIS personal
standard, or "Uma-jirushi". An attendant carried it,
and it marked HIS location on the battlefield, just
like Hideyoshi's Gourd Standard or Ieyasu's Golden
Fan. His retainers would wear the Shimazu mon on a
sashimono, in whatever color combination.

Turnbull is usually really good with heraldry--I
haven't checked his book specifically on that yet, but
the stuff in the sourcebook and others is solid.

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

[Previous #6575] [Next #6578]

#6578 [2005-01-20 15:47:20]

Re: Shimazu Mon & Sashimonos

by russcat9

Fair points. I might have to get Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook.

There is still some confusion over whether the Shimazu clan banner was
a black mon on white field or white on black. Could it be both?

Paul

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- russcat9 wrote:
>
>
> > Would Shimazu samurai and retainers bear the clan
> > mon on their
> > sashimonos or their lord's personal version?
>
> Shimazu specifically, I don't know. Usually it
> depended on the personal loyalties of that particular
> soldier--if he was a personal retainer of, say,
> Iehisa, he could potentially where a device specific
> to Iehisa. But more often than not it'd be a general
> device. The Hojo are the best example of this, I
> think--all the Hojo bigwigs used the same fish-scale
> mon, in different colors to identify their
> contingents.
>
> >
> > and then there's this from the Asian War group:
> >
> > "Turnbull, in his Sourcebook (always handy) reports
> >
> > Shimazu: white mon of cross in ring on black
> >
> > Yoshihiro: short red fukinuki (hollow streamer
> > banner) and banner of
> > white "ju" on black
> >
> >
> > Retainers' mon vary according to the whim of the
> > lord equipping them.
> > My impression (just that) is that more personal
> > troops (hatamoto, etc)
> > would carry a particular lord's banner while more
> > routine troops
> > (ashigaru) the clan. But remember, samurai retainers
> > often carried
> > their own insignias!"
>
> The standard described by Turnbull there for Yoshihiro
> isn't what his soldiers wore--it was HIS personal
> standard, or "Uma-jirushi". An attendant carried it,
> and it marked HIS location on the battlefield, just
> like Hideyoshi's Gourd Standard or Ieyasu's Golden
> Fan. His retainers would wear the Shimazu mon on a
> sashimono, in whatever color combination.
>
> Turnbull is usually really good with heraldry--I
> haven't checked his book specifically on that yet, but
> the stuff in the sourcebook and others is solid.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

[Previous #6576] [Next #6581]

#6581 [2005-01-20 16:32:11]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Shimazu Mon & Sashimonos

by ltdomer98

--- russcat9 <snowcat9@...> wrote:

>
>
> Fair points. I might have to get Turnbull's Samurai
> Sourcebook.
>
> There is still some confusion over whether the
> Shimazu clan banner was
> a black mon on white field or white on black. Could
> it be both?

Could be either. Mon weren't color based, like
European heraldry. The Shimazu mon would be the
Shimazu mon whether it was black on white, white on
black, or color on color. As for how it was actually
portrayed on the battlefield, in English Turnbull is
probably your best bet.

Nate

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

[Previous #6578]