Re: Intuition, perception, and mysticism

>From: "Silk Road School" <silk.road.school@...>
>Let me put this another way: do you actually _like_movies that distort history and strain - or defy - credibility?
>Gereg
>
>

Yes, if they are meant as a spoof. Monty Python's "Life of Brian" or
"Holy Grail" anyone? However "Last Samurai" doesn't seem to be a spoof
unless Tom Cruise is completely clueless. Hmm.... so maybe... but there
are much better films to watch than this.

>From: "ELIZABETH CHASE" <lizzirrd@...>
>Gereg,
>
>If I recall correctly, you had early on in your writing alluded to 'the
>artist's eye', and to perceptions that others might miss. Some people seem
>to have an ability to perceive that is so sensitive as to appear
>'supernatural', or 'mystic'. Artists, particularly those of Eastern arts,
>including martial, are taught (or advised) to learn to put aside their own
>ego and absorb their environment, especially in the beginning, of their
>training.
>

This has not been my personal experience with the three Japanese and
Chinese artists I have studied under. My first sumi-e teacher emphasized
being in a contemplative and relaxed frame of mind, possibly not
surprising since the class was at a Soto Zen church and her husband was
the Reverend. My second painting teacher, who is Chinese, really
emphasizes expressing your feelings and to paint freely. "Drink more
wine", as he would say! My calligraphy teacher is very analytical,
concentrating on formal styles and techniques and figures the artistic
part has to come from you.

While all three teachers use copying as part of their lessons, it is
never intended to suppress your ego, but to simply help you practice a
certain stroke or effect. Obviously I'm not that widely experienced, I'd
be interested in any personal accounts about training people have received.

>As a person who has knit, crocheted, embroidered, and sewn since she was 7
>years old, the catalog of impressions my brain has stored about fabrics,
>yarns, and threads is more than I can consciously recall.
>

I've been painting since I was a child as well, just not very well.
Experience and practice helps, no need for any 'mysticism' there.
Practice makes perfect is a western expression as well.

>We in the knitter's realm have a concept of yarn 'telling us what it wants to be'
>such that we say the yarn 'speaks to us'. Other knitters I know scoff at us
>about 'mysticism', and proceed to knit with yarn obviously unsuited to their
>project and they are wailing and complaining about a 'troublesome project'.
>They wonder at how others of us can 'make it look so easy'. I try to
>describe the way I personally 'hear' my yarn or fabric is not in words per
>se, but in a mind-full picture conjured by that store of impressions already
>there. If the needle size is wrong for the yarn, it will appear to 'fight'
>being knit.
>
>

Knowing tools and materials is part of being a craftsman. I don't think
that's 'mystic'. I don't percieve my materials as speaking to me though.
I just know, this paper is heavy and has lots of sizing, I must use lots
of dark ink. This paper is light and unsized, I must work fast and
lightly. If I'm working in metal, plastic or wood, I've worked enough
with them to know how they respond to the tools and the right tools to use.

>Persons who
>develop several avenues of pursuit get better at amalgamating information
>and perceptions of those arts into a cohesiveness, a 'way' of responding to
>their environment that to others can seem a bit unreal, but it is not. It
>is simply being and staying aware and responsive to the cues given by one's
>environment.
>
>

Maybe if the explanation is too 'mystic' the person's BS detector fires off.

>What do my previous words have to do with swords that seem to 'speak'?
>
>I think it has more to do with the person who is handling the sword, than it
>does with the sword itself. I think it is that awareness, that catalog of
>physical and visual impressions gathered over time, and the ability to allow
>one's mind to create a meaningful picture.
>
>

Once again, if the phrases used are a bit on the spacey side, my mind
has a tendency to scream poppycock! Part of the problem of being trained
to be pragmatic, analytical and practical from an early age. My mother
was an artist, but she could also fix the car and the refrigerator.
Practice, tools, and technique, and if your lucky a bit of art as well.

Hopelessly literal-minded,
Jim Eckman

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 00:47:12 +0000
From: "ELIZABETH CHASE" <lizzirrd@...>
Subject: Subject: Intuition, perception, and mysticism Re: swords (was .

----- Original Message -----
From: Silk Road School

it could be said that if we're trained to the correct
sensitivity, any of us can be capable of perceiving things that others, who
lack that training, may overlook.

Blessings and good faring, all.
Gereg


**** snipped to shreds for brevity****


Gereg,

I've followed this thread with no little amount of interest, and wondering
how I could chime in halfway sensibly, when I came across the part of your
message I didn't snip out. Still not sure if I can write in a sensible
manner, but I'll try.
G: The evidence is in your favour. It all looks pretty sensible to me.
If I recall correctly, you had early on in your writing alluded to 'the
artist's eye', and to perceptions that others might miss.
G: I don't recall the phrase, but I might have used it. I don't dispute
the gist of this.
Some people seem
to have an ability to perceive that is so sensitive as to appear
'supernatural', or 'mystic'. Artists, particularly those of Eastern arts,
including martial, are taught (or advised) to learn to put aside their own
ego and absorb their environment, especially in the beginning, of their
training. Later on they have learned, or should have learned, to
incorporate their ego into their perceptions 'properly', and 'become one'
with the world around them. Clumsily and said in cliché form, forgive me,
but that means to me that the person has become the same ego inside and out,
and is in a state of 'constant harmony' with their environment.... a place
in their existence where perception of and response to their environment is
so well ingrained that the individual appears to have some kind of 'power'.
It's not power; it is 'mushin'..... at rest, this concept is
'zanshin'............. but this you know already.
G: I'm with you so far, but I'll note this: as I see it, that is 'some
kind of power.' I believe I've said (though perhaps not here) that I've
seen a good deal of magic, but I don't believe in the supernatural. This is
a nice example of the sort of thing I mean. The terminology my Aikido
sensei used to use - centring, grounding, gathering ki (often translated
'life force') - always reminded me a great deal of the way my Wiccan friends
talked about European paganism. They called it magic, he always hastened to
say it wasn't. From their respective approaches, I think they were both
right. Focussed will produces results, it's as simple as that. And those
results are not always limited to obvious - or even rational - cause and
effect.
As a person who has knit, crocheted, embroidered, and sewn since she was 7
years old, the catalog of impressions my brain has stored about fabrics,
yarns, and threads is more than I can consciously recall. We in the
knitter's realm have a concept of yarn 'telling us what it wants to be'
such that we say the yarn 'speaks to us'. Other knitters I know scoff at us
about 'mysticism', and proceed to knit with yarn obviously unsuited to their
project and they are wailing and complaining about a 'troublesome project'.
They wonder at how others of us can 'make it look so easy'. I try to
describe the way I personally 'hear' my yarn or fabric is not in words per
se, but in a mind-full picture conjured by that store of impressions already
there. If the needle size is wrong for the yarn, it will appear to 'fight'
being knit.

Another person who paints, draws, or writes is tuned to a different store of
information, as are swordsmiths and all other artisans. Persons who
develop several avenues of pursuit get better at amalgamating information
and perceptions of those arts into a cohesiveness, a 'way' of responding to
their environment that to others can seem a bit unreal, but it is not. It
is simply being and staying aware and responsive to the cues given by one's
environment.
Health care providers, particularly nurses, also undergo a barrage of
sensory input that is beyond conscious recall, but some of them can take in
the appearance of a patient, and the summation of impressions that 'come up
on screen' 'tells' them that something is not going well. It's that 'gut'
feeling.

Soldiers also develop that catalog, unfortunately, with experience in
battle; Nathan can undoubtedly expound on this subject much better than I.
Some groundwork is certainly laid with intensive training.

What do my previous words have to do with swords that seem to 'speak'?

I think it has more to do with the person who is handling the sword, than it
does with the sword itself. I think it is that awareness, that catalog of
physical and visual impressions gathered over time, and the ability to allow
one's mind to create a meaningful picture.

Of course I have a lot more to say, also about the way a samurai may have
perceived his blade, but it mostly enters into the realm of psychology, so
I won't go there unless there is interest in further discussion. This is,
after all, a history list.

Off to work with me....

Lizzie



G: The yarn analogy is amusing, partly because my wife's recently started
spinning, but mostly because I've lately found myself regrinding some stock
blades - mostly Windlass Cutlery swords - that are tip-heavy and unwieldy.
A student gets a blade, it's not suited to him or her - but with a little
work it could be... I've been told I bring out the "inner blade," and while
that may be a little excessive, I do find I have a pretty clear feeling for
what that sword wants to be. As far as that goes, I agree with your
analysis completely. That's the sense that tells me how much taper's
needed, what kind of ricasso to leave, whether a new pommel's necessary,
etc.
...But it's not the same sense as that I get of the personality of the sword
itself. Consider your analogy to health care: that experienced unconscious
analysis - to use a clumsy explication of 'intuition" - may tell you what
treatment a patient will respond to, but it isn't how you can tell the
patient's in the room with you.
That analogy isn't as stretched as it might seem, either, since the obvious
counter to that would be: "Well, I can see the patient." Fair enough: an
ex-wife did hospital work, much of it with seniors; she said she could
immediately tell when a patient had died, as soon as she walked into the
room, by a feeling of absence that didn't seem to be related to sound or
smell or sight. I have no trouble believing this, and I doubt that her
sensitivity is unique: I'm guessing that's a pretty common phenomenon among
nurses - am I right?
Now I find this idea so credible (even if I'm wrong about it) not because
I've been around enough death to sense the absence myself, but because I
feel a corresponding sense of presence in many (not all, but many) blades.
After considering Mr. Sinclaire's post, I've come to wonder if a blade as
old as he's speaking of might not have developed sufficient 'presence' -
perhaps a less inflammatory term than 'spirit' - that it might be more
conspicuously perceptible. It is certainly my experience that a blade that
has been lovingly used for any length of time always carries with it a
proportionately more intense presence. That focussed will that I mentioned
earlier is also a factor here.

Now as a general note on this thread, I'd like to apologise for an
unintentional trap I set. I didn't originally want to get into the subject
of religion here, because that's not what this list is about. But it is a
fact that these ideas are connected to my personal faith, and in retrospect
I've come to think that if I'd been clearer about that to begin with, the
responses I got might have been accordingly more respectful, and I wouldn't
have been in a position to take such offense.
My regrets and apologies for the resultant unpleasantness: to Nate in
particular, and to the rest of you. I look forward to more civil
disagreements, and to even more civil agreements.
In honour,
Gereg

"It could be said that if we're trained to the correct
sensitivity, any of us can be capable of perceiving
things that others, who lack that training, may overlook."

I think the traditional means of training in the
martial arts differs from the west. We perceive
'knowledge' as, in a sense, 'objective data', to be
learnt, imparted from sensei to student, and upon
this foundation one can speculate with a lesser or
greater degree of accuracy.

Thus we are head or question based.

In the dojo nothing is said, you are shown, and learn
by example, and emulation. I have memories of sensei
stopping me, then showing me the form. I do exactly what
he does, and he shows me again, I do the same again and
he shows me again. I do EXACTLY what he did, and he shakes
his head and walks away.

Well, not quite, but the assimilation of knowledge
through training and kata is not 'head knowledge'
but 'heart' or 'body knowledge'.

There is a phrase in Japanese 'hand knowledge' -
it's to do with how one holds the sword. Although there
is the basic, most dynamic grip, the position of the
hands change all the time as one performs the
technique - the training is to stop bad habit (weak grip)
but once the hands understand what they're supposed to do,
best leave it up to them.

Thomas

Hi Gereg -

I was going to 'wax lyrical' somewhat further, but now I have
a cold, and my daughter returns from university with mumps!
Hopefully I will not be wearing hakama as a medicinal necessity
in the near future!

I think I did not quite agree with the notion of the sword
talking to the swordsman -

In none of the stuff I have read, re training in swordsmanship,
is there any presentation of this idea.

With the smith, however, I think there is a strong connection.
As has been stated previously, some smiths undertook Shinto
practices of purification before making a sword, and i have seen
at least one print of the goddess engaged with the smith in
forging the blade.

Personally, I don't think inanimate objects have a 'soul'
(this from a Catholic lay theologian - so if we want to
discuss lets do so offline) whereas I do believe objects have
spirit - imparted to them by their maker/owner.

In Buddhist philosophy there is tariki - other power -
and jiriki - self-power.

I think the notion of referring to a sword as 'talking' etc,
as tariki.

The superstitious samurai used every means to sway the fates
in his favour - tariki - prayers carried in the helmet or close
to the body, carvings on the tangs of swords and also on castle
walls. This is the way I read your post with regard to the
sword having a soul of its own. I'm not saying that religion is
superstition, but rather their response to the arbitary nature
of death in battle shaped their superstitions.

The great swordsmen had to rise above superstition - their
training of the great swordsmen was jiriki - self-power.
They realised that a Musashi or a Nobutsuna could be undone
by a moment of psycholigical weakness, and all their training
was towards a state of constant readiness.

In the same way as the smith forges a blade, the swordsman
forges himself, or rather his 'self', and all the literature
of the martial ryu reflect this notion as the foundation of the
way of the warrior. If we introduce the notion of the sword
having its own soul, which it imparts to the swordsman, then we
stand in danger of confusing the disciplines and rendering the
whole thing a nonsense.

However, I do agree that swordsmen could appreciate the
qualities of a blade that do not lend themselves to physical
observation.

Thomas

>From: "Thomas Davidson" <tom.davidson@...>
>
>
>In the dojo nothing is said, you are shown, and learn
>by example, and emulation.
>

Any skill that requires physical coordination has to be taught this way.
As you point out later, you can't know until your hands know. This
method was widely used in thes West as well until fairly recently. I
knew some much older machinists who would let you watch them perform an
operation but sure as hell wouldn't explain it. Nowadays students expect
more explanations.

>Well, not quite, but the assimilation of knowledge
>through training and kata is not 'head knowledge'
>but 'heart' or 'body knowledge'.
>
>but once the hands understand what they're supposed to do,
>best leave it up to them.
>
>

Correct practice makes perfect. A slightly improved saying.

Jim Eckman

Can you read this?



I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdgnieg THE PAOMNNEHAL PWEOR OF THE HMUAN MNID Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uineervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?


Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:
Hi Gereg -

I was going to 'wax lyrical' somewhat further, but now I have
a cold, and my daughter returns from university with mumps!
Hopefully I will not be wearing hakama as a medicinal necessity
in the near future!

I think I did not quite agree with the notion of the sword
talking to the swordsman -

In none of the stuff I have read, re training in swordsmanship,
is there any presentation of this idea.

With the smith, however, I think there is a strong connection.
As has been stated previously, some smiths undertook Shinto
practices of purification before making a sword, and i have seen
at least one print of the goddess engaged with the smith in
forging the blade.

Personally, I don't think inanimate objects have a 'soul'
(this from a Catholic lay theologian - so if we want to
discuss lets do so offline) whereas I do believe objects have
spirit - imparted to them by their maker/owner.

In Buddhist philosophy there is tariki - other power -
and jiriki - self-power.

I think the notion of referring to a sword as 'talking' etc,
as tariki.

The superstitious samurai used every means to sway the fates
in his favour - tariki - prayers carried in the helmet or close
to the body, carvings on the tangs of swords and also on castle
walls. This is the way I read your post with regard to the
sword having a soul of its own. I'm not saying that religion is
superstition, but rather their response to the arbitary nature
of death in battle shaped their superstitions.

The great swordsmen had to rise above superstition - their
training of the great swordsmen was jiriki - self-power.
They realised that a Musashi or a Nobutsuna could be undone
by a moment of psycholigical weakness, and all their training
was towards a state of constant readiness.

In the same way as the smith forges a blade, the swordsman
forges himself, or rather his 'self', and all the literature
of the martial ryu reflect this notion as the foundation of the
way of the warrior. If we introduce the notion of the sword
having its own soul, which it imparts to the swordsman, then we
stand in danger of confusing the disciplines and rendering the
whole thing a nonsense.

However, I do agree that swordsmen could appreciate the
qualities of a blade that do not lend themselves to physical
observation.

Thomas





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hi James -

I am a typographer/designer by trade, and used to lecture on
type and legibility.

People read not by stringing letters together, but by
recognising word shapes. The eye skims across the top of a line
of type like a stone skimmed across the water. As you say, first
and last letters are important, as is the top half of the line -
try reading covering up the top half and bottom half of the line.

That's why technical or specialist subject books can be 'difficult'
to read - it's not that we don't understand the content, it's that
the brain's working harder because it doesn't recognise all the
shapes, so reading is 'difficult' and more tiring.

We misread things when we mistake the word shape. And as reading
is a habit, we read easiest what we read most (forming our
vocabulary), and often mistake strange words for known ones.

I used to illustrate the lecture with the following story:

As a martial artist, I know every martial art shop in London,
so I was surprised, riding in a bus one day through a part of
town I thought I knew, to see an MA shop that I didn't know of.

Run downstairs (double decker bus), leap off, run across road and
into shop, and whoa! This can't be right (unless it's ninja
supplies?) Step outside shop and look up at sign, which says not
'martial arts', but 'marital aids'.

Thomas

Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 09:50:45 -0800
From: James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...>
Subject: Re: Re: Intuition, perception, and mysticism

>From: "Thomas Davidson" <tom.davidson@...>
>
>
>In the dojo nothing is said, you are shown, and learn
>by example, and emulation.
>

Any skill that requires physical coordination has to be taught this way.
As you point out later, you can't know until your hands know. This
method was widely used in thes West as well until fairly recently. I
knew some much older machinists who would let you watch them perform an
operation but sure as hell wouldn't explain it. Nowadays students expect
more explanations.

G: A contrasting perspective on this idea is that the people who do things
best are not always the ones who are capable of explaining it best. I think
it highly probable that the original teachers of martial arts fell into this
category, and that this became the accepted model for such teaching. ...I
also confess to a sneaking suspicion that this served to cover a great deal
of poor teaching over the generations. And that's not necessarily an insult
to any of the teachers, in my mind, because what other model for the art of
teaching did they have themselves? Here's a case where I think mystique
served no good purpose. Teaching is an art unto itself, and can be applied
with good results to pretty much any external discipline. (Internal
disciplines are more tricky.) Myself, I come from a teaching background,
and I find that if I can explain a concept clearly, I can get the student to
learn faster. (In many cases, this means less of a straightforward verbal
explanation and more of a method of evoking the correct kinesthetic
sensation: I don't want to suggest that anyone can simply be talked through
learning - say - to cut correctly.) I find that this approach involves far
less frustration for me and the student both. So my experience, at least,
James, is that most skills involving physical co-ordination can be taught
with good results, using a very different method than the one you've
described here.

>Well, not quite, but the assimilation of knowledge
>through training and kata is not 'head knowledge'
>but 'heart' or 'body knowledge'.
>
>but once the hands understand what they're supposed to do,
>best leave it up to them.
>
>

Correct practice makes perfect. A slightly improved saying.
G: I'd say both of those have merit; I don't think they're quite the same.
The former speaks more to me of training the intuition, the latter of
training the form. The art would be incomplete without both.
Gereg

Anyone who is strongly desired in Japanies Military Heritage must have a glance on the means of courage, bravery and loyality and self-sacrifice indeed. Hagakure claims these specifications in it's chapters decpite anyother self made interest. So do not forget that the way of the Samurai passes through Death. Even if U accept that eagerly, prepare yourself for Sepuku, if u dare for that.

Sincerly yours
Sirius Shingen




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

soroush vahabi wrote:

>
> Anyone who is strongly desired in Japanies Military Heritage must have a
> glance on the means of courage, bravery and loyality and self-sacrifice
> indeed. Hagakure claims these specifications in it's chapters decpite
> anyother self made interest. So do not forget that the way of the Samurai
> passes through Death. Even if U accept that eagerly, prepare yourself for
> Sepuku, if u dare for that.

AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

In message <41D04D42.1090709@...>, Anthony Bryant
<ajbryant@...> writes

> soroush vahabi wrote:
> >
> > Anyone who is strongly desired in Japanies Military Heritage must
> have a
> > glance on the means of courage, bravery and loyality and
> self-sacrifice
> > indeed. Hagakure claims these specifications in it's chapters
> decpite
> > anyother self made interest. So do not forget that the way of the
> Samurai
> > passes through Death. Even if U accept that eagerly, prepare
> yourself for
> > Sepuku, if u dare for that.
>
> AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Tony

I wish to be associated with the excellently expressed and erudite
views of the proceeding screamer!

Now, I confess I love Japanese mythology, but please not Hagakure again,
its 19th century pseudo-warrior nonsense, written in an age, where one
could almost say (tongue in cheek) that swords had to be made engraved
with the legend "sharp end towards enemy", so long had it been since
anyone had done any serious war fighting!

Dean

http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Anyone too lazy to type out the word "you" should be the one slitting his
own belly.

Seriously folks, can we have some of these idiots banned from the list?

I miss the serious discussion.

-Thom

----- Original Message -----
From: "soroush vahabi" <s_whitefalcons@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Intuition, perception, and mysticism




Anyone who is strongly desired in Japanies Military Heritage must have a
glance on the means of courage, bravery and loyality and self-sacrifice
indeed. Hagakure claims these specifications in it's chapters decpite
anyother self made interest. So do not forget that the way of the Samurai
passes through Death. Even if U accept that eagerly, prepare yourself for
Sepuku, if u dare for that.

Sincerly yours
Sirius Shingen




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>G: A contrasting perspective on this idea is that the people who do things best are not always the ones who are capable of explaining it best.
>

There's some truth to that, but in the cases I'm thinking of it's more
keeping the mysteries a secret. Knowledge was job security. Human nature
being what it is, there's probably a bit of that in the later period
schools.

>Correct practice makes perfect. A slightly improved saying.
>G: I'd say both of those have merit; I don't think they're quite the same. The former speaks more to me of training the intuition, the latter of training the form. The art would be incomplete without both.
>
>

I'm not that mystical, training is training, but what do you expect from
some literal minded engineer ;) Several reasons for very indirect in the
West, I suspect apply in period Japan as well, we just have documented
evidence for them in the West. Somebody on the list may know of the
Eastern evidence as well.

1. Job security
2. I know something you don't know! Childish, but powerful motives.
3. Worry about skill being inappropriately used without complete training.
4. Technique is more effective than the usual methods, more money or
victories possible.
5. Forcing the student to pay attention and respect their teacher.

Just random thoughts.

Jim

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dean Wayland
wrote:

> In message <41D04D42.1090709@b...>, Anthony Bryant
> writes
> > soroush vahabi wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone who is strongly desired in Japanies Military

Heritage must

> > have a
> > > glance on the means of courage, bravery and loyality and
> > self-sacrifice
> > > indeed. Hagakure claims these specifications in it's

chapters

> > decpite
> > > anyother self made interest. So do not forget that the way

of the

> > Samurai
> > > passes through Death. Even if U accept that eagerly,

prepare

> > yourself for
> > > Sepuku, if u dare for that.
> >
> > AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Tony
>
> I wish to be associated with the excellently expressed and erudite
> views of the proceeding screamer!
>
> Now, I confess I love Japanese mythology, but please not Hagakure

again,

> its 19th century pseudo-warrior nonsense, written in an age, where

one

> could almost say (tongue in cheek) that swords had to be made

engraved

> with the legend "sharp end towards enemy"

OK, THAT was funny :D