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How about specifics? Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai, the m

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#6291 [2004-12-14 05:40:08]

How about specifics? Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai, the movie.

by elizabethchase1

Esteemed teachers,

...........for that is who you are, whether or not you hold an academic post....

I have seen both the main movie and the appendix...... and admit it is the first TC .... no .... second... I saw 'Legend' about a
hundred years ago, but I digress...

I'd very much like to read a post that enumerates the inaccuracies of the movie as is, not as you wish it to be, and reveals what is
the true history instead. I have read a great deal of slamming (and elsewhere in other forums), but have yet to come across any
post that educates....

For example: the seppuku of General Hasagawa was not accurate from a 'formal seppuku' reference point, but what was the historical
ritual during/after battle?

There would be no poems, white robes, the cut did not go all the way through, and I forget the name of that piece of furniture
directly in front of the individual so that his shoulders & head landed on that, and thus avoided having the head bounce around on
the ground and his corpse avoided the indignity of having his butt in the air. I assume the final expulsion of body fluids was
provided for by careful fundoshi wrapping.

To me, the cut made by Katsumoto seemed inaccurate because it not went all the way through and allowed the head to roll away, with
the indignities to the corpse and all, and the kiai. I think that traditionally the ritual was performed in silence.

Armor: I don't know from squat, and would love to learn. Yes, I've read Tony's pages. My questions are these, so far: how
impoverished was the samurai class by the Meiji period; hadn't the shogunate been defunct by around twenty years by the time frame
of the movie; and how many generations might a suit of armor last?

Whether or not the widow or kids wanted to off TC, they would do as they were told by K, the widow's brother. Same thing with
Ujio. Same thing in the capture scene in the fog.

The battle sequences, one must remember, were western tactics, not Japanese.

I am not trying to rationalize the movie, I want to know the specific differences between history, tradition, and 'dramatic
license. That being said, I find it difficult to 'suspend disbelief' in medical shows, because of my profession. I also know that
some portrayals of medical procedures/information are deliberately inaccurate.

If the producers had wanted to make a more accurate film, would it not have been more appropriate for 'the History Channel', itself
a bit inaccurate in it's re-enactments?

Lastly, a challenge: I know it is easy to be an armchair jockey or quarterback..... and it is possible to gain a position on a
film production crew as a technical advisor..... instead of complaining, how about being pro-active and get involved in the
process?

Always willing to learn,

Lizzie





----- Original Message -----
From: Nate Ledbetter
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:36 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai, the movie. To: Tony Bryant



--- mark kd wrote:

People like to see
> cool stuff like the Last Samurai even if it isn't
> all that accurate.

And hence we lament the degradation of society.

You can't tell me you've seen any
> better Samurai "battle" scenes in another movies
> from the past??

Why not? I've seen tons better. Shoot, even Kurosawa's
worst battle scenes (melodramatic Kagemusha, anyone?)
were better than that.

Nate



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[Next #6311]

#6311 [2004-12-14 17:12:47]

Re: How about specifics? Re: [samuraihistory] The Last Samurai, the movie.

by ltdomer98

--- Elizabeth Chase <lizzirrd@...> wrote:

Elizabeth--

Please understand that some people (this means YOU,
Tony) would find fault with just about any movie. I
know he finds fault with Taiga Drama at times. But
excellent point about not "educating". We'll try to
get some comments on that.

> For example: the seppuku of General Hasagawa was
> not accurate from a 'formal seppuku' reference
> point, but what was the historical
> ritual during/after battle?

If this were a Sengoku battle, I could simply say
"there were no *set* rituals yet", but being as it's
post Tokugawa and all those fun Bushido rules had been
codified, there in fact *were* rules about how to do
these sorts of things. I'm not the slightest bit of an
Edo period expert, so I couldn't help you with the
details, alas. But I would think that most of the
*rules* didn't apply in battlefield situations--there
had been perilously few battles in the previous 250
years for the situation to come up.
Your description of flaws you observed sounds fine to
me, given that even though this was on a battlefield,
the customs of the time would dictate certain
etiquette, possibly.


> Armor: I don't know from squat, and would love to
> learn. Yes, I've read Tony's pages. My questions
> are these, so far: how
> impoverished was the samurai class by the Meiji
> period; hadn't the shogunate been defunct by around
> twenty years by the time frame
> of the movie; and how many generations might a suit
> of armor last?

Taken care of, it could last quite a long time. As for
how impoverished were they? Well, there were rich
samurai, and poor ones. The Shogunate doesn't enter
into this, since as you point out it was defunct for 2
decades, so I'm not sure where you are going with that
question. But while there are many tales of samurai
selling their swords to eat, or daimyo letting their
retainers go at the end of the Edo period, there were
also Daimyo who remained wealthy. The Daimyo of the
Choshu han let many of his retainers go under the
pretext of poverty, but with the added intention of
providing a marauding disturbance for the Shogunate to
deal with.

I want to
> know the specific differences between history,
> tradition, and 'dramatic
> license.
>
> Lastly, a challenge: I know it is easy to be an
> armchair jockey or quarterback..... and it is
> possible to gain a position on a
> film production crew as a technical advisor.....
> instead of complaining, how about being pro-active
> and get involved in the
> process?

I think Tony's done that.

Bear with me, it's been a while since I've seen it. As
Kitsuno has said, it's watchable to me, if I suspend
historical knowledge and watch it as a story taking
place somewhere that sort of looks like Japan.

Main issues I had:

1. Samurai didn't despise guns. They used them very
effectively 300 years before the events in the movie
supposedly take place. Suggesting otherwise makes the
movie romantic, but kills any semblence of reality.

2. Katsumoto, being a Daimyo, should have lived a
little better than in some remote mountain village. It
played more into the "Dances with Samurai" theme for
him to do so.

3. The ninja attack was pure Hollywood. It was only
there because any Hollywood samurai movie has got to
have a ninja attack, right?

4. Gaijin = no meet Emperor. That was pure silliness.

5. Katsumoto is LOOSELY based on Saigo Takamori. As
in, he was the leader of a group of disgruntled, armed
Samurai who took umbrage with being deprived of their
status. That's about the extent.

6. MOST IMPORTANT POINT: Ahlgren's
drunkenness--deplorable. No self-respecting member of
the 7th Cavalry would fail to hold their liquor like
that. I should know--I've been in the 7th twice! We
were a hard-drinking group, for sure--Ahlgren would
have wilted like a pansy.

I'll probably end up watching it again, and I'll be
able to talk about some more. I actually liked the
movie, but then again, I had convinced myself it took
place on another planet.



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