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New gaijin on the block

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#6155 [2004-12-07 22:43:53]

New gaijin on the block

by geregjonesmuller

Matt -
I don't think anybody else is actually gong to be blatant or direct enough
to recommend Anthony Bryant's Osprey book on the Samurai of the Tudor period
(although oddly enough, as you may think, it isn't titled _exactly_ that),
because Tony's too ethical (and too proud) to do it and Nate knows him too
well... so I might as well just out and say it. Good book. (And I didn't
even know the author was here when I signed onto the list.) Particularly
interesting to you, I would guess, because of the period it covers - Japan
during Queen Elizabeth's time (God save her).
Now knowing your dramatic background, and knowing that this isn't your
usual milieu (Pilot Adams, I presume? -Sorry, that's a kind of 'Shogun'
joke), let me commend to your attention a few films for general 'feel'.
None of these is actual history, of course. But there's lots (and lots and
LOTS) of crrrap out there, and it's easy to get lost in delusions based on
bad period drama. You know how it goes. (A perfectly pleasant and
intelligent soul recently said here that "Rurouni Kenshin" seemed to be
reasonably historical, for example, provoking uncontrollable fits of
laughter from Tony.) So here's some _good_ period drama, by way of
contrast.
...It'll be interesting to see how this list goes over on this list, in
fact. (By the way, I have to admit here and now to a sneaking fondness for
the manga of "Rurouni Kenshin" (I've seen nothing of the anime, so have no
opinion), but let's say I've ...reserved judgement ...on any historical
details I came across in the storyline...)

Stuff by Kurosawa Akira (look under 'K', not 'A')
Seven Samurai
Hidden Fortress
...both set in the Warring States period (roughly while Gloriana sat the
throne of England)
Yojimbo
Sanjuro
...some centuries later - these are bloody hilarious: and I mean both. As
I recall, these are set in the mid-1800s.

Stuff by Inagaki Hiroshi (under 'I', not 'H')
Chushingura
...set about 1700 -the archetypal samurai epic: the 47 Ronin done on the
scale of 'Gone With The Wind' - think of it as the Japanese cultural
equivalent to Thermopylae, the Alamo, the Titanic, and the Easter Uprising
all rolled into one. This film is long and slow, and it's hard for a gaijin
(at least) to keep track of everybody the first time or two through it...
but it's wonderful for all that. Many of the shots were taken directly from
classic woodcuts of the episode.
The Samurai Trilogy
...a popularised (and fairly implausible) version of the life of Musashi
Miyamoto, author of the Book of Five Rings (or Spheres)... arguably the
greatest of the samurai. (I've heard he's referred to as "Kensei" in Japan,
and if someone would give me a more clear definition of that than Harris's
"sword-saint" I would be most grateful.) Matt, I've made the better part of
a life's study of this work. Strong talk from an Arrogant Son-Of-a-Bitch
like me, you may note. I carry a small copy of the book on me the way some
folks carry a Bible, and I have never exhausted what I can learn from it.
If I ever achieve a fraction of Musashi's mastery, I will regard myself as
fortunate beyond my deserts.
...Now don't expect this trilogy to make a hell of a lot of sense in terms
of sequential plot line unless you've read the lengthy book on which it's
based, but it's beautifully made and it's packed with a zillion little
period details. The novel was written and serialised in the 1930s, and
reflects some of the most impressively developed virgin/whore dichotomy I've
ever seen anywhere.

Now then: if Kitsuno (the list-owner: a Mysterious Figure with whom I've
never exchanged a post: some say he's really a fox spirit), or Tony, Nate,
Dean or any of you other elitist, ASOB lot have some suggestions I've
missed, I'd be only too happy for the recommendation. I've just about got
the ones I've listed memorised already. (I only pray I'm not opening a
floodgate of raving fandom.)
Gereg

[Next #6156]

#6156 [2004-12-07 23:31:35]

Re: [samuraihistory] New gaijin on the block

by ltdomer98

--- Silk Road School <silk.road.school@...>
wrote:

> Matt -
> I don't think anybody else is actually gong to be
> blatant or direct enough
> to recommend Anthony Bryant's Osprey book...and Nate
knows him too
> well

Haven't received my commission check yet.

Now then: if Kitsuno (the list-owner: a
> Mysterious Figure with whom I've
> never exchanged a post: some say he's really a fox
> spirit),

*beep* Hello, this is the Kitsuno residence. I'm
currently living in the wilds of Kyushu with limited
internet access and even more limited access to
Starbucks and Yoshinoya. I'm off wandering around cool
castle ruins, but leave your name, email address, and
a brief but well-written message with my minion Nate,
and I'll get back to you...maybe. *beep*

or Tony, Nate,
> Dean or any of you other elitist, ASOB lot have some
> suggestions I've
> missed, I'd be only too happy for the
> recommendation.

I'll point out that he asked for movies in English,
without subtitles. The only movies that fit that
criteria would be documentaries--even "The Last
Samurai" had subtitles in parts.

But, decent list, nonetheless.



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#6158 [2004-12-08 00:00:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] New gaijin on the block

by johntwo8

Do u actualy live in Kyushu? If so where? I used to live in Kyushu. GOD BLESS YOU

peace


Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Silk Road School <silk.road.school@...>
wrote:

> Matt -
> I don't think anybody else is actually gong to be
> blatant or direct enough
> to recommend Anthony Bryant's Osprey book...and Nate
knows him too
> well

Haven't received my commission check yet.

Now then: if Kitsuno (the list-owner: a
> Mysterious Figure with whom I've
> never exchanged a post: some say he's really a fox
> spirit),

*beep* Hello, this is the Kitsuno residence. I'm
currently living in the wilds of Kyushu with limited
internet access and even more limited access to
Starbucks and Yoshinoya. I'm off wandering around cool
castle ruins, but leave your name, email address, and
a brief but well-written message with my minion Nate,
and I'll get back to you...maybe. *beep*

or Tony, Nate,
> Dean or any of you other elitist, ASOB lot have some
> suggestions I've
> missed, I'd be only too happy for the
> recommendation.

I'll point out that he asked for movies in English,
without subtitles. The only movies that fit that
criteria would be documentaries--even "The Last
Samurai" had subtitles in parts.

But, decent list, nonetheless.



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#6159 [2004-12-08 00:31:10]

Re: [samuraihistory] New gaijin on the block

by yeomanforbes

Erg.

Gents, I was joking about English in subtitles. JOKING, I say!

Seriously, I'll watch whatever movies y'all recommend on the subject, and
would prefer some sort of translation in to the bastard tongue of English,
but I can probably chew through something all in Japanese if I had to. I
just wouldn't know why people did what they did, but it's sorta like watching
those Japanese soap operas. It can be amusing... for a few minutes, if
"Desperate housewives" isn't on at the moment.

I sense that Momoyama period might, indeed, be the one I'd find the first
interest in, but only due to the relative safety of knowing a bit about the
1550s elsewhere in the European sphere and thus having some safety to flee
toward when cornered on a period. "Um... I don't know... um... but the
Fuggers *were* a very powerful banking family in the Germanies, you know."
See? Pull out not-very-useful fact and wave it around to distract people
while you slip the other direction.

While Mr. Turnbull is engaging in his own way, I was attracted to a shiny
thing, like a magpie, and went burbling into the pre-history of that
thoroughly unSamurai-like fellow, Mr. Ming ("The") and his happy, rollicking
dynasty. Now that we know the ships thing was related to the rise and fall
of the eunichs-- and make no mistake, no double entendre there; none
possible-- I'm still fascinated about what the heck those crazy Chinese were
thinking in 1351 during the whole Red Turban affair, and how it relates to
"let's sink a perfectly good largest fleet in the world in 1433 and turn
really insular." A monk, you say, as emporer? Preposterous.

In the meantime, then, I shall be chastened to return to the pearl isle to
learn more about how many soldiers you have to provide for every cho of
riceland you own (and here I thought, all along, Koko was the name of the
gorilla who did the sign language with a cat. With a CAT! The cat can't do
sign language. It was a doomed experiment).

This sort of mundane detail brings me to a quick question, perhaps not easily
answered: What did the sandal-bearer and the rain-hat carriers do? Rain-hat
carrier? This, from a list on page 9 of Mr. Turnbull's Samurai ("u" not "a")
Armies: 1550-1615 Osprey book. No offense to Tony, but this was the only
offering from those fine �5,000 per book fellows available at the Central
Library, so I took it.

You've got all these ashigaro carrying all sorts of things, but to have a guy
to carry rain hats? Interesting. And sandals? Wouldn't people carry their
own? Maybe they were artisans to make/create new ones when old ones wore out
or damaged. Still...


--- Silk Road School <silk.road.school@...> wrote:

> Matt -
> I don't think anybody else is actually gong to be blatant or direct enough
> to recommend Anthony Bryant's Osprey book on the Samurai of the Tudor
> period
> (although oddly enough, as you may think, it isn't titled _exactly_ that),
> because Tony's too ethical (and too proud) to do it and Nate knows him too
> well... so I might as well just out and say it. Good book. (And I didn't
> even know the author was here when I signed onto the list.) Particularly
> interesting to you, I would guess, because of the period it covers - Japan
> during Queen Elizabeth's time (God save her).
> Now knowing your dramatic background, and knowing that this isn't your
> usual milieu (Pilot Adams, I presume? -Sorry, that's a kind of 'Shogun'
> joke), let me commend to your attention a few films for general 'feel'.
> None of these is actual history, of course. But there's lots (and lots and
> LOTS) of crrrap out there, and it's easy to get lost in delusions based on
> bad period drama. You know how it goes. (A perfectly pleasant and
> intelligent soul recently said here that "Rurouni Kenshin" seemed to be
> reasonably historical, for example, provoking uncontrollable fits of
> laughter from Tony.) So here's some _good_ period drama, by way of
> contrast.
> ...It'll be interesting to see how this list goes over on this list, in
> fact. (By the way, I have to admit here and now to a sneaking fondness for
> the manga of "Rurouni Kenshin" (I've seen nothing of the anime, so have no
> opinion), but let's say I've ...reserved judgement ...on any historical
> details I came across in the storyline...)
>
> Stuff by Kurosawa Akira (look under 'K', not 'A')
> Seven Samurai
> Hidden Fortress
> ...both set in the Warring States period (roughly while Gloriana sat the
> throne of England)
> Yojimbo
> Sanjuro
> ...some centuries later - these are bloody hilarious: and I mean both.
> As
> I recall, these are set in the mid-1800s.
>
> Stuff by Inagaki Hiroshi (under 'I', not 'H')
> Chushingura
> ...set about 1700 -the archetypal samurai epic: the 47 Ronin done on the
> scale of 'Gone With The Wind' - think of it as the Japanese cultural
> equivalent to Thermopylae, the Alamo, the Titanic, and the Easter Uprising
> all rolled into one. This film is long and slow, and it's hard for a
> gaijin
> (at least) to keep track of everybody the first time or two through it...
> but it's wonderful for all that. Many of the shots were taken directly
> from
> classic woodcuts of the episode.
> The Samurai Trilogy
> ...a popularised (and fairly implausible) version of the life of Musashi
> Miyamoto, author of the Book of Five Rings (or Spheres)... arguably the
> greatest of the samurai. (I've heard he's referred to as "Kensei" in
> Japan,
> and if someone would give me a more clear definition of that than Harris's
> "sword-saint" I would be most grateful.) Matt, I've made the better part
> of
> a life's study of this work. Strong talk from an Arrogant Son-Of-a-Bitch
> like me, you may note. I carry a small copy of the book on me the way some
> folks carry a Bible, and I have never exhausted what I can learn from it.
> If I ever achieve a fraction of Musashi's mastery, I will regard myself as
> fortunate beyond my deserts.
> ...Now don't expect this trilogy to make a hell of a lot of sense in terms
> of sequential plot line unless you've read the lengthy book on which it's
> based, but it's beautifully made and it's packed with a zillion little
> period details. The novel was written and serialised in the 1930s, and
> reflects some of the most impressively developed virgin/whore dichotomy
> I've
> ever seen anywhere.
>
> Now then: if Kitsuno (the list-owner: a Mysterious Figure with whom I've
> never exchanged a post: some say he's really a fox spirit), or Tony, Nate,
> Dean or any of you other elitist, ASOB lot have some suggestions I've
> missed, I'd be only too happy for the recommendation. I've just about got
> the ones I've listed memorised already. (I only pray I'm not opening a
> floodgate of raving fandom.)
> Gereg
>
>




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#6161 [2004-12-08 01:42:47]

Re: [samuraihistory] New gaijin on the block

by ltdomer98

--- james wilson <johntwo8@...> wrote:

> Do u actualy live in Kyushu? If so where? I used to
> live in Kyushu. GOD BLESS YOU
>
> peace

I don't live in Kyushu. I live in downtown Tokyo.

Kitsuno, the owner of this email list, lives in
Oita-ken. Some small remote village where they still
dress like Watanabe Ken in "The Last Samurai".

Okay, not really...but it's somewhere in Oita-ken.



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#6162 [2004-12-08 05:05:56]

Re: [samuraihistory] New gaijin on the block

by ltdomer98

--- Matt Bowes <yeomanforbes@...> wrote:

> Seriously, I'll watch whatever movies y'all
> recommend on the subject, and
> would prefer some sort of translation in to the
> bastard tongue of English,

Well, just about any Kurosawa movie you can get your
hand on is a good start. "Samurai Banners"
(Fuurinkazan) is a favorite choice. Owl's Castle
(Fukuro no shiro) is nice. I'm sure some of our movie
buffs will have more.

It can be amusing...
> for a few minutes, if
> "Desperate housewives" isn't on at the moment.

Most of the time I don't feel as if I'm missing
American TV...then there are times...

> See? Pull out not-very-useful fact and wave it
> around to distract people
> while you slip the other direction.

Whatever works for you.

> In the meantime, then, I shall be chastened to
> return to the pearl isle to
> learn more about how many soldiers you have to
> provide for every cho of
> riceland you own (and here I thought, all along,
> Koko was the name of the
> gorilla who did the sign language with a cat. With
> a CAT! The cat can't do
> sign language. It was a doomed experiment).

I must say, your style, though bizarre, is refreshing.
Kind of like Tolkein on acid.

What did the sandal-bearer and the
> rain-hat carriers do? Rain-hat
> carrier? This, from a list on page 9 of Mr.
> Turnbull's Samurai ("u" not "a")
> Armies: 1550-1615 Osprey book.

Well, the job titles are pretty self-descriptive, I
should think. Care to elaborate on your question?

> You've got all these ashigaro carrying all sorts of
> things, but to have a guy
> to carry rain hats? Interesting. And sandals?
> Wouldn't people carry their
> own? Maybe they were artisans to make/create new
> ones when old ones wore out
> or damaged. Still...

As in Europe, the more people at your beck and call
for utterly mundane things, the better off you must
have been. But sandal bearer, though it DOES relate to
setting the masters sandals out for him to step into
when he steps down from the veranda, is also a bit of
a personal attendant position. Toyotomi Hideyoshi (aka
Hashiba Hideyoshi, aka Kinoshita Tokichiro, depending
on what stage of life you want) started out as a
sandal bearer to Oda Nobunaga.



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#6169 [2004-12-08 05:43:58]

Re: movie list (was new gaijin)

by thomas_tessera

A couple of other movies:

Ame Agaru (After the Rain) - a gentle story

Twilight Samurai - another gentle story with some nice kodachi work for those who recall
previous discussions here...

... and Gohatto, more 'gay' than 'gentle', again with some excellent dojo fencing which
contrasts nicely with the somewhat wild 'cut n slash' of 'the real thing'.

The Kurosawas are, of course, mandatory.

I have heard Seven Samurai is being re-released with revised subtitling which is somewhat
more 'earthy' than the 50's version. Anyone know anything about this?

Thomas

[Previous #6162] [Next #6171]

#6171 [2004-12-08 08:48:12]

Re: movie list addenda

by thomas_tessera

'Musa: The Warrior' - a Korean period epic set in 14th-century China
about a group of Korean envoys and their escort trying to get back to
Korea after their arrest and exile by the Chinese.

Thomas

[Previous #6169] [Next #6172]

#6172 [2004-12-08 08:39:59]

Re: [samuraihistory] New gaijin on the block

by johntwo8

Oh ok thank you any way.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- james wilson wrote:

> Do u actualy live in Kyushu? If so where? I used to
> live in Kyushu. GOD BLESS YOU
>
> peace

I don't live in Kyushu. I live in downtown Tokyo.

Kitsuno, the owner of this email list, lives in
Oita-ken. Some small remote village where they still
dress like Watanabe Ken in "The Last Samurai".

Okay, not really...but it's somewhere in Oita-ken.



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http://my.yahoo.com



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#6174 [2004-12-08 07:37:37]

Re: Re: New gaijin on the block

by lost90804

>From: Matt Bowes <yeomanforbes@...>
>I just wouldn't know why people did what they did, but it's sorta like watching those Japanese soap operas. It can be amusing... for a few minutes, if "Desperate housewives" isn't on at the moment.
>
>
I think you could watch "Ooku" and get the same effect, just in period
clothes instead ;)

> From: Gabriel Dodu <dodu_gabriel@...>
>
>Hello everybody!
>
>I have long thought whether to "break the silence" and ask something, seeing as newcomers (newbies) are not always welcome and especially because english is not my native language...
>
I think Nate and some others object to bad English only from people who
should know better. Second languages are tough, I still can get a laugh
with some of my mistakes in Japanese.

>Seeing that I am from the Eastern Europe, and books about Japan hardly get here (on-line shopping is out of the question for now, because, for example, Amazon does not cover my area - and also because I am somehow "financially-challenged" at the moment :D ), I mostly use the www. So, here is a list of sites that I use, please tell me if they are ok:
>2. Jim Breen's Japanese Page
>
>
This is a great site.

>3. Nagasaki University Old Picture Database
>
>
This is a great site.

>4. www.kanjisite.com
>
>
Thank you, I was unaware of this site and the random testing function is
very good.

>I would also appreciate if you could direct me to some online japanese literature books (public domain, of course), since I can't buy any ( I know I ask much...but, hey, hope dies last...)
>
>
I'm spoiled rotten for libraries, so I usually get my history from them.
I think there is a site that reprints old Japanese texts in Japanese but
I forgot the link name.

Jim Eckman

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