please help about samurai armour

hello everyone,
i was wondering if anyone could tell me what clothe material was used on the KOTE of samurai armour. The KOTE has all of these lames, mail, and plates on it, but what kind of material are these connected to?,and How do you attach all of the plates,mail, & lames to it??? I've been useing the website www.sengokudaimyo.com as a guide to making my own authentic samurai armour but some of the chapters don't tell me everything i need.(like what certain fabric or materials are needed) Keep in mind, it is the best website i've found about making samurai armour yet, but some of the small important details needed arn't included. If anyone can help, please do so. Also, if anyone knows any great websites or books on THE PROCESSES & THE MATERIALS NEEDED to make samurai armour, please let me know. Thank you for your time.
Thank you,
MARK
depos42300@...


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Mark,

The backing materials (ieji) varied a bit. Usually the middle layer was
hemp soaked in a waterproofing/stiffener/(insect proofing?) made from unripe
persimmons. The outer shell in higher quality sets was silk, often a
brocade, sometimes imported. Lower grade armours especially in the sengoku
jidai often had a hemp outer shell. The inner shell was either hemp or silk.
All of this was edged in supple deerhide (usually black).

Maikaru/ M.J.Peters

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Hi,

Michael, has already mentioned the structure for the foundation fabric,
but as to the technique for attaching the plates and mail for kote etc.,
it can be done as follows:

1. Firstly make up all the platework and use the mail (kusari) to join
up all the parts, paint it (don't forget to under-coat it).

BTW As a guide the mail is very fine, meaning the holes in the plates
are about 1/4" or 7mm centre to centre and about 1.2 in diameter. The
round "rings" that lay flat should be made of about 0.8-1.0 mm wire,
while the oval "links" that stand on their long edges should be thinner
at around 0.6-0.9mm. The diameter for the mandrel around which you wrap
your wire, should be about 3-4mm. You can make the oval rings by taking
the uncut coil of round rings and squeezing them to shape in a vice,
then cut them off as per normal. This kusari is comparatively weak along
side European mail, but it isn't required to be structurally sound, as
its job is to stop sharp things slicing bits of you off, which as it is
supported by the textiles beneath, it does very well indeed!

2. Ideally make up a simple wooden "picture" style frame, to which you
can pin the fabric, to hold it firmly in place, while letting you work
on it from either side. This frame is invaluable.

3. Now lay your middle layer of hemp over the frame, and then cover that
with your chosen outer shell, now pin them to the frame. If you can't
get hemp or indeed afford it, use corse linen. Do NOT put the inner
shell in position yet, nor should you cut it to shape.

4. Lay your metal work on the section in the middle, and use a few pins
to initially hold it in place.

5. Okay, now we start sewing. Don't panic, you do not need to sew every
piece down with a separate set of stitching, the old armourers were very
cunning, particularly when it came to mass production. Use a simple
running stitch around the outside edges, so that on the plates you end
up with alternate little 7mm sections of thread with blank space in
between. And to secure the mail, just take your needle from the back to
the front, and go around that edge of the oval "link" that's lying
against the fabric and back through your cloth. In effect you are
creating little loops to hold the mail in place. Do NOT sew the round
"rings" down, this will pull the armour in too tight making it sort of
shrink and become stiffer, not a good idea, as we found out, we had to
sew one kote twice:-(

BTW we had to do another twice because the chap used white linen thread
on black armour, laid upon a dark blue foundation. We swapped it for
black linen, as it looked much better, so choose your thread wisely.

6. Around the elbow section, where there is often lots of mail, but few
plates (an elbow cap and maybe up to five tiny semi-circular plates in
orbit around it), and assuming you've sewn the edges as stated in "5"
above, just sew the links around the plates themselves, put in a running
stitch across the middle of the solid panel of mail, let the rest float
free for ease of movement. If you go for the style of open work mail on
the inside of the elbow, you'll need to go around the "links" of each
open section to stop it from flapping about.

7. Now comes the trick. With all these running stitches you would think
one breakage and your armour will fall off! Not so, turn the armour over
so you are looking at the inside and all those vunrible threads. You
then give it a wipe over with thin glue. I believe the Japanese used a
glue made from rice paste or possibly a fish based one (Tony, Michael?).
When it dries, the armour will be very stiff, but after a very, very
short while, it'll loosen up. The idea is that if a thread breaks then
its prevented from unravelling by the glue, thus saving you hours and
hours of unnecessary sewing:-)

8. At this point you'll probably want to touch up the paint work before
taking it off the frame for shaping.

9. Pin your inner shell to the armour and cut it to shape (sorry I would
need lots of pictures here to show you how, refer to Tony's pages for
guidance). Having got it to the right shape take the inner shell off
again and put it aside for the time being.

10. Get some very very thin leather. Ideally you should use the kind of
Japanese leather made for the task, as it is not only thin, but has
little or no stretchiness. Cut it in to a long narrow strip about 20mm
across. If it has a stencilled pattern on it you will need to start
sewing it to the edge with its outside face flat against the outside of
the kote fabric, so you are seeing its reverse side. Put its edge in
line with the edge of the kote, so it lays inboard of the edge. Now sew
along the outside edge.

11. Put in any ties or toggles (kohaze) etc that you need at this point.
But not the cord that closes the kote into a tube shape.

12. Take your inner shell place it against the inside of your kote, and
fold the leather trim over itself and around the back of the inside of
the kote. By doing this you hide the stitching that holds the leather in
place and reveals the stencilled pattern of the leather (if it has one).
Now, sew through the front of the kote and the leather (on the back) as
close to the leather as you can get. Don't use tiny stitches, use big
ones 1/4"-3/8"(7-10mm). The idea being that when you've finished there
should be little exposed stitching that can be caught as you put your
arm in and out, while at the same time leaving it easy to open the kote
up to do repairs. If you want to be a bit classy you can apply a 1/8th
(3mm) herring bone patterned braid up against the edge of the leather,
making the stitching practically invisible.

13. Finally put in the cords that hold the kote shut, again refer to
Tony's pages.

Although not cheap, for Japanese leather, silk braid etc. see Trevor's
restoration pages at:

http://www.toraba.com

BTW Tony, I've no idea if you cover all of this stuff on your pages, but
as I needed to write this up for myself, I thought I'd use the
opportunity, and then share it.

Anyway, hope this is useful

Dean
***




In message <20041107174053.94013.qmail@...>, mark kd
<depos42300@...> writes

>
> hello everyone,
>   i was wondering if anyone could tell me what clothe material was
> used on the KOTE of samurai armour. The KOTE has all of these
> lames, mail, and plates on it, but what kind of material are these
> connected to?,and How do you attach all of the plates,mail, & lames
> to it??? I've been useing the website www.sengokudaimyo.com as a
> guide to making my own authentic samurai armour but some of the
> chapters don't tell me everything i need.(like what certain fabric
> or materials are needed) Keep in mind, it is the best website i've
> found about making samurai armour yet, but some of the small
> important details needed arn't included. If anyone can help, please
> do so. Also, if anyone knows any great websites or books on THE
> PROCESSES & THE MATERIALS NEEDED to make samurai armour, please let
> me know. Thank you for your time.

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

hi,
Thank you very much for this info. I'm gonna try it out asap. Do you know how to make a full suit of samurai armor? if so, do you have any pics? Anything to help me would be great. Also, in your step 9 below, you said that you would need lots of pics to show me how to put it all together. Well, i was thinking that the next time you made samurai armor, you could catalog the process for me.(detailed pics and notes). I'm not asking you to do it for me for free if that's what your thinking. I'll gladly $pay$ you for your time.(for the pics & notes). I know it might be asking a bit much but if your interested please let me know. I really want to make samurai armor but i'm affraid of screwing it all up cause i don't have a lot of info on how to make it. All i got is a lot of pics of full-scale size armor and not a lot of detailed pics on how it all goes together. Well, like i said if your interested let me know,....please be interested. Thanks again,
Mark
depos42300@...

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi,

Michael, has already mentioned the structure for the foundation fabric,
but as to the technique for attaching the plates and mail for kote etc.,
it can be done as follows:

1. Firstly make up all the platework and use the mail (kusari) to join
up all the parts, paint it (don't forget to under-coat it).

BTW As a guide the mail is very fine, meaning the holes in the plates
are about 1/4" or 7mm centre to centre and about 1.2 in diameter. The
round "rings" that lay flat should be made of about 0.8-1.0 mm wire,
while the oval "links" that stand on their long edges should be thinner
at around 0.6-0.9mm. The diameter for the mandrel around which you wrap
your wire, should be about 3-4mm. You can make the oval rings by taking
the uncut coil of round rings and squeezing them to shape in a vice,
then cut them off as per normal. This kusari is comparatively weak along
side European mail, but it isn't required to be structurally sound, as
its job is to stop sharp things slicing bits of you off, which as it is
supported by the textiles beneath, it does very well indeed!

2. Ideally make up a simple wooden "picture" style frame, to which you
can pin the fabric, to hold it firmly in place, while letting you work
on it from either side. This frame is invaluable.

3. Now lay your middle layer of hemp over the frame, and then cover that
with your chosen outer shell, now pin them to the frame. If you can't
get hemp or indeed afford it, use corse linen. Do NOT put the inner
shell in position yet, nor should you cut it to shape.

4. Lay your metal work on the section in the middle, and use a few pins
to initially hold it in place.

5. Okay, now we start sewing. Don't panic, you do not need to sew every
piece down with a separate set of stitching, the old armourers were very
cunning, particularly when it came to mass production. Use a simple
running stitch around the outside edges, so that on the plates you end
up with alternate little 7mm sections of thread with blank space in
between. And to secure the mail, just take your needle from the back to
the front, and go around that edge of the oval "link" that's lying
against the fabric and back through your cloth. In effect you are
creating little loops to hold the mail in place. Do NOT sew the round
"rings" down, this will pull the armour in too tight making it sort of
shrink and become stiffer, not a good idea, as we found out, we had to
sew one kote twice:-(

BTW we had to do another twice because the chap used white linen thread
on black armour, laid upon a dark blue foundation. We swapped it for
black linen, as it looked much better, so choose your thread wisely.

6. Around the elbow section, where there is often lots of mail, but few
plates (an elbow cap and maybe up to five tiny semi-circular plates in
orbit around it), and assuming you've sewn the edges as stated in "5"
above, just sew the links around the plates themselves, put in a running
stitch across the middle of the solid panel of mail, let the rest float
free for ease of movement. If you go for the style of open work mail on
the inside of the elbow, you'll need to go around the "links" of each
open section to stop it from flapping about.

7. Now comes the trick. With all these running stitches you would think
one breakage and your armour will fall off! Not so, turn the armour over
so you are looking at the inside and all those vunrible threads. You
then give it a wipe over with thin glue. I believe the Japanese used a
glue made from rice paste or possibly a fish based one (Tony, Michael?).
When it dries, the armour will be very stiff, but after a very, very
short while, it'll loosen up. The idea is that if a thread breaks then
its prevented from unravelling by the glue, thus saving you hours and
hours of unnecessary sewing:-)

8. At this point you'll probably want to touch up the paint work before
taking it off the frame for shaping.

9. Pin your inner shell to the armour and cut it to shape (sorry I would
need lots of pictures here to show you how, refer to Tony's pages for
guidance). Having got it to the right shape take the inner shell off
again and put it aside for the time being.

10. Get some very very thin leather. Ideally you should use the kind of
Japanese leather made for the task, as it is not only thin, but has
little or no stretchiness. Cut it in to a long narrow strip about 20mm
across. If it has a stencilled pattern on it you will need to start
sewing it to the edge with its outside face flat against the outside of
the kote fabric, so you are seeing its reverse side. Put its edge in
line with the edge of the kote, so it lays inboard of the edge. Now sew
along the outside edge.

11. Put in any ties or toggles (kohaze) etc that you need at this point.
But not the cord that closes the kote into a tube shape.

12. Take your inner shell place it against the inside of your kote, and
fold the leather trim over itself and around the back of the inside of
the kote. By doing this you hide the stitching that holds the leather in
place and reveals the stencilled pattern of the leather (if it has one).
Now, sew through the front of the kote and the leather (on the back) as
close to the leather as you can get. Don't use tiny stitches, use big
ones 1/4"-3/8"(7-10mm). The idea being that when you've finished there
should be little exposed stitching that can be caught as you put your
arm in and out, while at the same time leaving it easy to open the kote
up to do repairs. If you want to be a bit classy you can apply a 1/8th
(3mm) herring bone patterned braid up against the edge of the leather,
making the stitching practically invisible.

13. Finally put in the cords that hold the kote shut, again refer to
Tony's pages.

Although not cheap, for Japanese leather, silk braid etc. see Trevor's
restoration pages at:

http://www.toraba.com

BTW Tony, I've no idea if you cover all of this stuff on your pages, but
as I needed to write this up for myself, I thought I'd use the
opportunity, and then share it.

Anyway, hope this is useful

Dean
***




In message <20041107174053.94013.qmail@...>, mark kd
<depos42300@...> writes

>
> hello everyone,
> i was wondering if anyone could tell me what clothe material was
> used on the KOTE of samurai armour. The KOTE has all of these
> lames, mail, and plates on it, but what kind of material are these
> connected to?,and How do you attach all of the plates,mail, & lames
> to it??? I've been useing the website www.sengokudaimyo.com as a
> guide to making my own authentic samurai armour but some of the
> chapters don't tell me everything i need.(like what certain fabric
> or materials are needed) Keep in mind, it is the best website i've
> found about making samurai armour yet, but some of the small
> important details needed arn't included. If anyone can help, please
> do so. Also, if anyone knows any great websites or books on THE
> PROCESSES & THE MATERIALS NEEDED to make samurai armour, please let
> me know. Thank you for your time.

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark

Eep!

I'm so sorry, if I had the time I certainly would help, but sadly I'm
not that lucky. I haven't done much building myself, my eyesight is
really bad but I did lead a project to make an armour, for one of my
friends. As I said in my reply, I was taking the opportunity to get some
of the data down on paper:-) My intention is, to get a few of the
pictures of our "work in progress" posted to my web site, with a short
explanation. When I do I'll post the news here.

Meanwhile, to give you an idea of what you could be letting yourself in
for: I started researching back in 1986, started seriously sorting out
the building in 1994 and we still haven't finished the dam thing yet! In
the end we more or less gave up, until last year, when we got our butts
off the deck and knuckled down to doing some more research and work
(that awful little four letter word). All the parts we had half done
were finished, and we started to look around for a decent smith who
could make the other parts for us instead, otherwise Andrew, the friend
in question will be long in his grave by the time we actually finish it!

For myself, earlier this year I gave in and bought a Japanese festival
armour as a sort of stop-gap, I was sick of the great theoretical
armour, I wanted the real thing, well I got it, er.. sort of. The
replica in question is way under weight and needs a lot of work, just to
make it serviceable, but a whole lot less than starting from scratch.
But I do intend to replace it with something much better.

The problem was we started with the idea of doing it as right as
possible, but of necessity we had to make compromises as we went along,
which no doubt you will probably have to do as well. For example we
didn't use urushi (Japanese lacquer), due to its cost and toxicity. And
when we did the kote (armoured sleeve), kohire ("little-fin" brigendine
shoulder guards) and the tate-eri ("shield-collar") we had to use
American doe skin as we couldn't get the right thing from Japan. Now, we
can and the guys who did the sewing are cursing a lot as they know that
I'm going to "persuade" them to replace it. The dou (body armour) we had
made is in russet 2mm steel and does look amazing, but it doesn't have
any gessan yet, but I hope to have that sorted out sometime soon, as
Michael who answered your first email does make armour in his spare time
(spare time? a misnomer I think, would you not agree Michael?).

Anyway I wish you the best of luck, I'm sorry I can't currently be of
more help, but as soon as I've got the stuff up on the net I'll let you
know.

All the best

Yours

Dean

***


In message <20041109030428.71697.qmail@...>, mark kd
<depos42300@...> writes

> hi,
>   Thank you very much for this info. I'm gonna try it out asap. Do
> you know how to make a full suit of samurai armor? if so, do you
> have any pics? Anything to help me would be great. Also, in your
> step 9 below, you said that you would need lots of pics to show me
> how to put it all together. Well, i was thinking that the next time
> you made samurai armor, you could catalog the process for
> me.(detailed pics and notes). I'm not asking you to do it for me
> for free if that's what your thinking. I'll gladly $pay$ you for
> your time.(for the pics & notes). I know it might be asking a bit
> much but if your interested please let me know. I really want to
> make samurai armor but i'm affraid of screwing it all up cause i
> don't have a lot of info on how to make it. All i got is a lot of
> pics of full-scale size armor and not a lot of detailed pics on how
> it all goes together. Well, like i said if your interested let me
> know,....please be interested. Thanks again,
> �����������������������������������������������������������������������������
> Mark

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hi Dean,
Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't have time. I have my first child coming in 1-2 weeks so i'll probably understand what you mean. Oh well, i thought i'd ask anyways. (you sure,...???? $$$$$$) Let's keep it at that for now, but if you change your mind u have my e-mail. Back to that first e-mail u sent me about stitching the armor to the fabrics...,...a couple more ?'s then i'll stop bothering u for advice.

1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of clothe? Outer Layer(that's what you see on the outsite), a layer of Cloth Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can a get that?what size?, a layer of Very Very Very Thin Leather(goes under hemp layer), and then the Inner Shell(goes under v v v thin leather)?is this layer leather? do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it and then mold it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the whole way down the entire KOTE and stay flexable?

2. I understand stitching the mail down but about the plates.. How do sew them down. You talked about a "running stitch"???what's that? i'm not a sewer. Do a sew through the metal? Do i predrill little holes?? I don't understand that part.

3. How do you put a running stitch across the middle of a solid panal of mail?

4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions on how to lace lames together????? I just can't seem to get it right. My armor is all flimsy and isn't very rigid. My Lames are about 1.5" wide x 2.5" high 10gauge stainless steal.(free from work) I need to learn some better methods on lacing them together. I don't think i have enough hole punch in each lame? Website's don't really go into detail on putting more than 2 lames together.(that sucks) Anyway, if you have a good technique on lacing Lame armor, please let me know.

Thanks for everything Dean,
Mark
depos42300@...

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi Mark

Eep!

I'm so sorry, if I had the time I certainly would help, but sadly I'm
not that lucky. I haven't done much building myself, my eyesight is
really bad but I did lead a project to make an armour, for one of my
friends. As I said in my reply, I was taking the opportunity to get some
of the data down on paper:-) My intention is, to get a few of the
pictures of our "work in progress" posted to my web site, with a short
explanation. When I do I'll post the news here.

Meanwhile, to give you an idea of what you could be letting yourself in
for: I started researching back in 1986, started seriously sorting out
the building in 1994 and we still haven't finished the dam thing yet! In
the end we more or less gave up, until last year, when we got our butts
off the deck and knuckled down to doing some more research and work
(that awful little four letter word). All the parts we had half done
were finished, and we started to look around for a decent smith who
could make the other parts for us instead, otherwise Andrew, the friend
in question will be long in his grave by the time we actually finish it!

For myself, earlier this year I gave in and bought a Japanese festival
armour as a sort of stop-gap, I was sick of the great theoretical
armour, I wanted the real thing, well I got it, er.. sort of. The
replica in question is way under weight and needs a lot of work, just to
make it serviceable, but a whole lot less than starting from scratch.
But I do intend to replace it with something much better.

The problem was we started with the idea of doing it as right as
possible, but of necessity we had to make compromises as we went along,
which no doubt you will probably have to do as well. For example we
didn't use urushi (Japanese lacquer), due to its cost and toxicity. And
when we did the kote (armoured sleeve), kohire ("little-fin" brigendine
shoulder guards) and the tate-eri ("shield-collar") we had to use
American doe skin as we couldn't get the right thing from Japan. Now, we
can and the guys who did the sewing are cursing a lot as they know that
I'm going to "persuade" them to replace it. The dou (body armour) we had
made is in russet 2mm steel and does look amazing, but it doesn't have
any gessan yet, but I hope to have that sorted out sometime soon, as
Michael who answered your first email does make armour in his spare time
(spare time? a misnomer I think, would you not agree Michael?).

Anyway I wish you the best of luck, I'm sorry I can't currently be of
more help, but as soon as I've got the stuff up on the net I'll let you
know.

All the best

Yours

Dean

***


In message <20041109030428.71697.qmail@...>, mark kd
<depos42300@...> writes

> hi,
> Thank you very much for this info. I'm gonna try it out asap. Do
> you know how to make a full suit of samurai armor? if so, do you
> have any pics? Anything to help me would be great. Also, in your
> step 9 below, you said that you would need lots of pics to show me
> how to put it all together. Well, i was thinking that the next time
> you made samurai armor, you could catalog the process for
> me.(detailed pics and notes). I'm not asking you to do it for me
> for free if that's what your thinking. I'll gladly $pay$ you for
> your time.(for the pics & notes). I know it might be asking a bit
> much but if your interested please let me know. I really want to
> make samurai armor but i'm affraid of screwing it all up cause i
> don't have a lot of info on how to make it. All i got is a lot of
> pics of full-scale size armor and not a lot of detailed pics on how
> it all goes together. Well, like i said if your interested let me
> know,....please be interested. Thanks again,
>
> Mark

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



---
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Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

dean,
1 more ? that i forgot to ask that goes w/ all the questions below.

5. What armorors tools should i get to make my armor. I have the basics, hammers, some power tools......but what things are very important & what do you use???

thanks again,
Mark

mark kd <depos42300@...> wrote:
Hi Dean,
Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't have time. I have my first child coming in 1-2 weeks so i'll probably understand what you mean. Oh well, i thought i'd ask anyways. (you sure,...???? $$$$$$) Let's keep it at that for now, but if you change your mind u have my e-mail. Back to that first e-mail u sent me about stitching the armor to the fabrics...,...a couple more ?'s then i'll stop bothering u for advice.

1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of clothe? Outer Layer(that's what you see on the outsite), a layer of Cloth Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can a get that?what size?, a layer of Very Very Very Thin Leather(goes under hemp layer), and then the Inner Shell(goes under v v v thin leather)?is this layer leather? do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it and then mold it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the whole way down the entire KOTE and stay flexable?

2. I understand stitching the mail down but about the plates.. How do sew them down. You talked about a "running stitch"???what's that? i'm not a sewer. Do a sew through the metal? Do i predrill little holes?? I don't understand that part.

3. How do you put a running stitch across the middle of a solid panal of mail?

4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions on how to lace lames together????? I just can't seem to get it right. My armor is all flimsy and isn't very rigid. My Lames are about 1.5" wide x 2.5" high 10gauge stainless steal.(free from work) I need to learn some better methods on lacing them together. I don't think i have enough hole punch in each lame? Website's don't really go into detail on putting more than 2 lames together.(that sucks) Anyway, if you have a good technique on lacing Lame armor, please let me know.

Thanks for everything Dean,
Mark
depos42300@...

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi Mark

Eep!

I'm so sorry, if I had the time I certainly would help, but sadly I'm
not that lucky. I haven't done much building myself, my eyesight is
really bad but I did lead a project to make an armour, for one of my
friends. As I said in my reply, I was taking the opportunity to get some
of the data down on paper:-) My intention is, to get a few of the
pictures of our "work in progress" posted to my web site, with a short
explanation. When I do I'll post the news here.

Meanwhile, to give you an idea of what you could be letting yourself in
for: I started researching back in 1986, started seriously sorting out
the building in 1994 and we still haven't finished the dam thing yet! In
the end we more or less gave up, until last year, when we got our butts
off the deck and knuckled down to doing some more research and work
(that awful little four letter word). All the parts we had half done
were finished, and we started to look around for a decent smith who
could make the other parts for us instead, otherwise Andrew, the friend
in question will be long in his grave by the time we actually finish it!

For myself, earlier this year I gave in and bought a Japanese festival
armour as a sort of stop-gap, I was sick of the great theoretical
armour, I wanted the real thing, well I got it, er.. sort of. The
replica in question is way under weight and needs a lot of work, just to
make it serviceable, but a whole lot less than starting from scratch.
But I do intend to replace it with something much better.

The problem was we started with the idea of doing it as right as
possible, but of necessity we had to make compromises as we went along,
which no doubt you will probably have to do as well. For example we
didn't use urushi (Japanese lacquer), due to its cost and toxicity. And
when we did the kote (armoured sleeve), kohire ("little-fin" brigendine
shoulder guards) and the tate-eri ("shield-collar") we had to use
American doe skin as we couldn't get the right thing from Japan. Now, we
can and the guys who did the sewing are cursing a lot as they know that
I'm going to "persuade" them to replace it. The dou (body armour) we had
made is in russet 2mm steel and does look amazing, but it doesn't have
any gessan yet, but I hope to have that sorted out sometime soon, as
Michael who answered your first email does make armour in his spare time
(spare time? a misnomer I think, would you not agree Michael?).

Anyway I wish you the best of luck, I'm sorry I can't currently be of
more help, but as soon as I've got the stuff up on the net I'll let you
know.

All the best

Yours

Dean

***


In message <20041109030428.71697.qmail@...>, mark kd
<depos42300@...> writes

> hi,
> Thank you very much for this info. I'm gonna try it out asap. Do
> you know how to make a full suit of samurai armor? if so, do you
> have any pics? Anything to help me would be great. Also, in your
> step 9 below, you said that you would need lots of pics to show me
> how to put it all together. Well, i was thinking that the next time
> you made samurai armor, you could catalog the process for
> me.(detailed pics and notes). I'm not asking you to do it for me
> for free if that's what your thinking. I'll gladly $pay$ you for
> your time.(for the pics & notes). I know it might be asking a bit
> much but if your interested please let me know. I really want to
> make samurai armor but i'm affraid of screwing it all up cause i
> don't have a lot of info on how to make it. All i got is a lot of
> pics of full-scale size armor and not a lot of detailed pics on how
> it all goes together. Well, like i said if your interested let me
> know,....please be interested. Thanks again,
>
> Mark

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HI

some of the info you need is on www.sengokudaimyo.com

this site is one for making toy version a (full size)
out of cardboard.
http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~usa/indexus.html

The template for the koe is quite good but you may
need to alter it. I would suggest that you make it too
bit then start cutting down.

I have been reading thris thred with interest as I
have been slowly working on some pices myself.If you
are going to make Japanese armour, you really can not
do it from ready books and looking at photos. You are
going to have to do what anyoe else has done, thats
get to a museum and view as many sets as possible. If
you write in advance and talk with the muesum they
wiill take you into the displays and also to the store
rooms where I bet that have extra pieces. I handled at
least 20 sets of kote before I attempted mine. the
first sleeve took me one month doing an hour or so
every day. that included making all my own rings etc.

start with these mail sites.
http://www.caradoc.org/~iain/gusari.html
http://www.artofchainmail.com/patterns/
http://www.drakyl.com/japanese.php

you need to handle the mail and the plates to see how
its constructed.

I was very lucky to have Ian Bottomley show me mail
and also draw diagrams for me on how to make it.

go for it its great fun, but you must handle the real
things first

Paul

--- mark kd <depos42300@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi Dean,
Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't
have time. I have my first child coming in 1-2 weeks
so i'll probably understand what you mean. Oh well, i
thought i'd ask anyways. (you sure,...???? $$$$$$)
Let's keep it at that for now, but if you change your
mind u have my e-mail. Back to that first e-mail u
sent me about stitching the armor to the
fabrics...,...a couple more ?'s then i'll stop
bothering u for advice.

1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of clothe?
Outer Layer(that's what you see on the outsite), a
layer of Cloth Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can
a get that?what size?, a layer of Very Very Very Thin
Leather(goes under hemp layer), and then the Inner
Shell(goes under v v v thin leather)?is this layer
leather? do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it
and then mold it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the
whole way down the entire KOTE and stay flexable?

2. I understand stitching the mail down but about the
plates.. How do sew them down. You talked about a
"running stitch"???what's that? i'm not a sewer. Do a
sew through the metal? Do i predrill little holes?? I
don't understand that part.

3. How do you put a running stitch across the middle
of a solid panal of mail?

4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions on
how to lace lames together????? I just can't seem to
get it right. My armor is all flimsy and isn't very
rigid. My Lames are about 1.5" wide x 2.5" high
10gauge stainless steal.(free from work) I need to
learn some better methods on lacing them together. I
don't think i have enough hole punch in each lame?
Website's don't really go into detail on putting more
than 2 lames together.(that sucks) Anyway, if you have
a good technique on lacing Lame armor, please let me
know.

Thanks for everything
Dean,
Mark

depos42300@...

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi Mark

Eep!

I'm so sorry, if I had the time I certainly would
help, but sadly I'm
not that lucky. I haven't done much building myself,
my eyesight is
really bad but I did lead a project to make an armour,
for one of my
friends. As I said in my reply, I was taking the
opportunity to get some
of the data down on paper:-) My intention is, to get a
few of the
pictures of our "work in progress" posted to my web
site, with a short
explanation. When I do I'll post the news here.

Meanwhile, to give you an idea of what you could be
letting yourself in
for: I started researching back in 1986, started
seriously sorting out
the building in 1994 and we still haven't finished the
dam thing yet! In
the end we more or less gave up, until last year, when
we got our butts
off the deck and knuckled down to doing some more
research and work
(that awful little four letter word). All the parts we
had half done
were finished, and we started to look around for a
decent smith who
could make the other parts for us instead, otherwise
Andrew, the friend
in question will be long in his grave by the time we
actually finish it!

For myself, earlier this year I gave in and bought a
Japanese festival
armour as a sort of stop-gap, I was sick of the great
theoretical
armour, I wanted the real thing, well I got it, er..
sort of. The
replica in question is way under weight and needs a
lot of work, just to
make it serviceable, but a whole lot less than
starting from scratch.
But I do intend to replace it with something much
better.

The problem was we started with the idea of doing it
as right as
possible, but of necessity we had to make compromises
as we went along,
which no doubt you will probably have to do as well.
For example we
didn't use urushi (Japanese lacquer), due to its cost
and toxicity. And
when we did the kote (armoured sleeve), kohire
("little-fin" brigendine
shoulder guards) and the tate-eri ("shield-collar") we
had to use
American doe skin as we couldn't get the right thing
from Japan. Now, we
can and the guys who did the sewing are cursing a lot
as they know that
I'm going to "persuade" them to replace it. The dou
(body armour) we had
made is in russet 2mm steel and does look amazing, but
it doesn't have
any gessan yet, but I hope to have that sorted out
sometime soon, as
Michael who answered your first email does make armour
in his spare time
(spare time? a misnomer I think, would you not agree
Michael?).

Anyway I wish you the best of luck, I'm sorry I can't
currently be of
more help, but as soon as I've got the stuff up on the
net I'll let you
know.

All the best

Yours

Dean

***


In message
<20041109030428.71697.qmail@...>,
mark kd
<depos42300@...> writes

> hi,
> Thank you very much for this info. I'm gonna

try it out asap. Do

> you know how to make a full suit of samurai

armor? if so, do you

> have any pics? Anything to help me would be

great. Also, in your

> step 9 below, you said that you would need lots

of pics to show me

> how to put it all together. Well, i was thinking

that the next time

> you made samurai armor, you could catalog the

process for

> me.(detailed pics and notes). I'm not asking you

to do it for me

> for free if that's what your thinking. I'll

gladly $pay$ you for

> your time.(for the pics & notes). I know it might

be asking a bit

> much but if your interested please let me know. I

really want to

> make samurai armor but i'm affraid of screwing it

all up cause i

> don't have a lot of info on how to make it. All i

got is a lot of

> pics of full-scale size armor and not a lot of

detailed pics on how

> it all goes together. Well, like i said if your

interested let me

> know,....please be interested. Thanks again,
>

> Mark

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com

Yo Paul,

I couldn't agree more, Ian did the same for us. We were lucky enough to
have access to the Wade collection (Snowshill Manor) several years ago
('95-'96), and we'd stay over in the Manor for week-ends on the trot,
studying, sketching and pulling our hair out, but it was worth it. Plus
Ian spent a day with us there explaining everything, in collaboration
with Mike Jessop the then curator. Sadly the collection is currently not
on display as they are doing a lot of refurbishment to the building and
no one has any idea what's going to happen to the arms and armour.

BTW for those of you who have a copy of Ian and Jock's book "Arms and
Armour of the Samurai", the two-page picture just before the title page
was taken in the then "Green" room at Snowshill, an amazing collection.

Mark, to re-enforce what Paul says, there is NO substitute for getting
your hands on real armour, so get yourself off to a museum with a
collection, contact the curator and tell him/her what you're doing and
ask to have a hands on introduction. Don't be too disappointed if you
have to try several, or if they restrict what you can see or handle.
This is only to be expected with stuff that is quite often delicate. The
other places to visit include arms fairs, where this stuff is up for
sale, I spent many a happy hour or six wandering around learning as I
went. Finally if you can afford it, one technique is to buy bits of the
real thing, study it, then sell it on and buy something else, repeat
until happy, broke or both.

Yours

Dean

***

In message <20041110082850.9019.qmail@...>,
Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> writes

> HI
>
> some of the info you need is on www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> this site is one for making toy version a (full size)
> out of cardboard.
> http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~usa/indexus.html
>
> The template for the koe is quite good but you may
> need to alter it. I would suggest that you make it too
> bit then start cutting down.
>
> I have been reading thris thred with interest as I
> have been slowly working on some pices myself.If you
> are going to make Japanese armour, you really can not
> do it from ready books and looking at photos. You are
> going to have to do what anyoe else has done, thats
> get to a museum and view as many sets as possible. If
> you write in advance and talk with the muesum they
> wiill take you into the displays and also to the store
> rooms where I bet that have extra pieces. I handled at
> least 20 sets of kote before I attempted mine. the
> first sleeve took me one month doing an hour or so
> every day. that included making all my own rings etc.
>
> start with these mail sites.
> http://www.caradoc.org/~iain/gusari.html
> http://www.artofchainmail.com/patterns/
> http://www.drakyl.com/japanese.php
>
> you need to handle the mail and the plates to see how
> its constructed.
>
> I was very lucky to have Ian Bottomley show me mail
> and also draw diagrams for me on how to make it.
>
> go for it its great fun, but you must handle the real
> things first
>
> Paul
>
> --- mark kd <depos42300@...> wrote:
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Hi Dean,
> Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't
> have time. I have my first child coming in 1-2 weeks
> so i'll probably understand what you mean. Oh well, i
> thought i'd ask anyways. (you sure,...???? $$$$$$)
> Let's keep it at that for now, but if you change your
> mind u have my e-mail. Back to that first e-mail u
> sent me about stitching the armor to the
> fabrics...,...a couple more ?'s then i'll stop
> bothering u for advice.
>
> 1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of clothe?
> Outer Layer(that's what you see on the outsite), a
> layer of Cloth Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can
> a get that?what size?, a layer of Very Very Very Thin
> Leather(goes under hemp layer), and then the Inner
> Shell(goes under v v v thin leather)?is this layer
> leather? do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it
> and then mold it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the
> whole way down the entire KOTE and stay flexable?
>
> 2. I understand stitching the mail down but about the
> plates.. How do sew them down. You talked about a
> "running stitch"???what's that? i'm not a sewer. Do a
> sew through the metal? Do i predrill little holes?? I
> don't understand that part.
>
> 3. How do you put a running stitch across the middle
> of a solid panal of mail?
>
> 4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions on
> how to lace lames together????? I just can't seem to
> get it right. My armor is all flimsy and isn't very
> rigid. My Lames are about 1.5" wide x 2.5" high
> 10gauge stainless steal.(free from work) I need to
> learn some better methods on lacing them together. I
> don't think i have enough hole punch in each lame?
> Website's don't really go into detail on putting more
> than 2 lames together.(that sucks) Anyway, if you have
> a good technique on lacing Lame armor, please let me
> know.
>
> ������������������������������ Thanks for everything
> Dean,
> ������������������������������   ��� Mark
> ������������������������������    ���
> depos42300@...
>
> Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
> Hi Mark
>
> Eep!
>
> I'm so sorry, if I had the time I certainly would
> help, but sadly I'm
> not that lucky. I haven't done much building myself,
> my eyesight is
> really bad but I did lead a project to make an armour,
> for one of my
> friends. As I said in my reply, I was taking the
> opportunity to get some
> of the data down on paper:-) My intention is, to get a
> few of the
> pictures of our "work in progress" posted to my web
> site, with a short
> explanation. When I do I'll post the news here.
>
> Meanwhile, to give you an idea of what you could be
> letting yourself in
> for: I started researching back in 1986, started
> seriously sorting out
> the building in 1994 and we still haven't finished the
> dam thing yet! In
> the end we more or less gave up, until last year, when
> we got our butts
> off the deck and knuckled down to doing some more
> research and work
> (that awful little four letter word). All the parts we
> had half done
> were finished, and we started to look around for a
> decent smith who
> could make the other parts for us instead, otherwise
> Andrew, the friend
> in question will be long in his grave by the time we
> actually finish it!
>
> For myself, earlier this year I gave in and bought a
> Japanese festival
> armour as a sort of stop-gap, I was sick of the great
> theoretical
> armour, I wanted the real thing, well I got it, er..
> sort of. The
> replica in question is way under weight and needs a
> lot of work, just to
> make it serviceable, but a whole lot less than
> starting from scratch.
> But I do intend to replace it with something much
> better.
>
> The problem was we started with the idea of doing it
> as right as
> possible, but of necessity we had to make compromises
> as we went along,
> which no doubt you will probably have to do as well.
> For example we
> didn't use urushi (Japanese lacquer), due to its cost
> and toxicity. And
> when we did the kote (armoured sleeve), kohire
> ("little-fin" brigendine
> shoulder guards) and the tate-eri ("shield-collar") we
> had to use
> American doe skin as we couldn't get the right thing
> from Japan. Now, we
> can and the guys who did the sewing are cursing a lot
> as they know that
> I'm going to "persuade" them to replace it. The dou
> (body armour) we had
> made is in russet 2mm steel and does look amazing, but
> it doesn't have
> any gessan yet, but I hope to have that sorted out
> sometime soon, as
> Michael who answered your first email does make armour
> in his spare time
> (spare time? a misnomer I think, would you not agree
> Michael?).
>
> Anyway I wish you the best of luck, I'm sorry I can't
> currently be of
> more help, but as soon as I've got the stuff up on the
> net I'll let you
> know.
>
> All the best
>
> Yours
>
> Dean
>
> ***
>
>
> In message
> <20041109030428.71697.qmail@...>,
> mark kd
> <depos42300@...> writes
> >��� hi,
> >  ��� Thank you very much for this info. I'm gonna
> try it out asap. Do
> >��� you know how to make a full suit of samurai
> armor? if so, do you
> >��� have any pics? Anything to help me would be
> great. Also, in your
> >��� step 9 below, you said that you would need lots
> of pics to show me
> >��� how to put it all together. Well, i was thinking
> that the next time
> >��� you made samurai armor, you could catalog the
> process for
> >��� me.(detailed pics and notes). I'm not asking you
> to do it for me
> >��� for free if that's what your thinking. I'll
> gladly $pay$ you for
> >��� your time.(for the pics & notes). I know it might
> be asking a bit
> >��� much but if your interested please let me know. I
> really want to
> >��� make samurai armor but i'm affraid of screwing it
> all up cause i
> >��� don't have a lot of info on how to make it. All i
> got is a lot of
> >��� pics of full-scale size armor and not a lot of
> detailed pics on how
> >��� it all goes together. Well, like i said if your
> interested let me
> >��� know,....please be interested. Thanks again,
> >������������������������������                   ���
>                         ���
> >��� Mark
> Dean Wayland
> Head Of The Fight School
> http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
>
>
>
> ---
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Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hi Mark,

Okay, to really answer your questions I'd have to write a book, and a
pretty big one at that, and there is no way that I'm adequately
qualified to even think about it, never mind the fact that as I said
time is short, and your right that "sucks".

> Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't have time. I have
> my first child coming in 1-2 weeks so i'll probably understand what
> you mean.

Oh yeah, you definitely will....

> Oh well, i thought i'd ask anyways. (you sure,...????

h yeah, I'm sure...

> $$$$$$) Let's keep it at that for now, but if you change your mind
> u have my e-mail.

I have...

> Back to that first e-mail u sent me about
> stitching the armor to the fabrics...,...a couple more ?'s then
> i'll stop bothering u for advice.

So folks, I'm a sucker...

> 1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of clothe?

NO, just 3...

> Outer
> Layer(that's what you see on the outsite),

Yep...

> a layer of Cloth
> Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can a get that?what size?,

Yep, and don't worry about trying to get hemp, its expensive, use
"linen", which is made from the "flax" plant, or just a corse weave
cotton, almost like a sort of fine heavy sack cloth. Go chat with a
cloth merchant...

> a
> layer of Very Very Very Thin Leather(goes under hemp layer),

Er... no, the thin leather is the edge trim not a layer...

> and
> then the Inner Shell

Yep..

>(goes under v v v thin leather)?

no, see above..

>is this layer
> leather?

no, this inner shell should be a soft linen, cotton or rarely silk, it
has to be comfortable as it goes directly against your bear skin...

> do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it and then mold
> it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the whole way down the entire
> KOTE and stay flexable?

as I said no leather layer, it goes on the edge only, and if you boil
leather, you get soup..

> 2. I understand stitching the mail down but about the plates.. How
> do sew them down.

All the plates on kote etc, have holes around their edges through which
either the links of the mail pass, or where there is no mail, you use
thread to sew it down...

>You talked about a "running stitch"???what's
> that? i'm not a sewer.

Well there's another skill you'll need to learn to become a "Japanese"
armourer, ask someone you know who sews, or visit your local library and
get a book on sewing for beginners...

> Do a sew through the metal? Do i predrill
> little holes??

Yes, as I described above...

> I don't understand that part.

Good point, this is why I agree with Paul, go get your hands on the
"real" thing, it will all become clear, especially if you can find
someone who'll talk you through it while you have the armour in your
hands...

> 3. How do you put a running stitch across the middle of a solid
> panal of mail?

When I say "solid" I meant, composed of just mail, no plates, no big
gaps. The word "Mail" comes from Latin via medieval French, and it can
be translated as "net" or "mesh", its full of holes and you simply take
your thread and loop it round a bit of the mail "tying" it to the cloth.
It'll become obvious when you see a real kote up close.

> 4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions on how to lace
> lames together????? I just can't seem to get it right. My armor is
> all flimsy and isn't very rigid. My Lames are about 1.5" wide x
> 2.5" high 10gauge stainless steal.(free from work) I need to learn
> some better methods on lacing them together. I don't think i have
> enough hole punch in each lame? Website's don't really go into
> detail on putting more than 2 lames together.(that sucks) Anyway,
> if you have a good technique on lacing Lame armor, please let me
> know.

Again, I feel a major work coming on, sorry, go look at the real thing.
Also try getting hold of a book entitled:

"The Manufacture of Helmets and Armour in 16th Century Japan" by
Sekikabara Kozan translated by H.R.Robinson, and look at the diagrams in
the back...

And finally, re your other email, as to tools, again I suggest find
yourself a friendly local armourer and get their advice. Tony's website,
which Paul has given you will help you if you can't find someone to talk
to.

Anyway, I'm off to do all the other things that I'm supposed to be
doing, good luck with your project.

Yours

Dean

***
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hello again,
I just want to thank you guys(Dean & Paul) for the great advice. I really appreciate you guys taking some time out and explaining all of this stuff to me. I might sound stupid, but, i never even thought of going to a museum to see armor. That's a great idea!!! Again, thanks a lot for all of the advice. I'll post some pics up as i go along. Hope to hear some good replies about it. Thank you.
Greatfully yours,
Mark

P.S.- do you guys ever go to any of the SCA events? I live in Buffalo N.Y. so if you go to any in Rochester N.Y. or most other cities in N.Y.,i might see ya there.

Later Guys!!!!!

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Okay, to really answer your questions I'd have to write a book, and a
pretty big one at that, and there is no way that I'm adequately
qualified to even think about it, never mind the fact that as I said
time is short, and your right that "sucks".

> Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't have time. I have
> my first child coming in 1-2 weeks so i'll probably understand what
> you mean.

Oh yeah, you definitely will....

> Oh well, i thought i'd ask anyways. (you sure,...????

h yeah, I'm sure...

> $$$$$$) Let's keep it at that for now, but if you change your mind
> u have my e-mail.

I have...

> Back to that first e-mail u sent me about
> stitching the armor to the fabrics...,...a couple more ?'s then
> i'll stop bothering u for advice.

So folks, I'm a sucker...

> 1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of clothe?

NO, just 3...

> Outer
> Layer(that's what you see on the outsite),

Yep...

> a layer of Cloth
> Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can a get that?what size?,

Yep, and don't worry about trying to get hemp, its expensive, use
"linen", which is made from the "flax" plant, or just a corse weave
cotton, almost like a sort of fine heavy sack cloth. Go chat with a
cloth merchant...

> a
> layer of Very Very Very Thin Leather(goes under hemp layer),

Er... no, the thin leather is the edge trim not a layer...

> and
> then the Inner Shell

Yep..

>(goes under v v v thin leather)?

no, see above..

>is this layer
> leather?

no, this inner shell should be a soft linen, cotton or rarely silk, it
has to be comfortable as it goes directly against your bear skin...

> do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it and then mold
> it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the whole way down the entire
> KOTE and stay flexable?

as I said no leather layer, it goes on the edge only, and if you boil
leather, you get soup..

> 2. I understand stitching the mail down but about the plates.. How
> do sew them down.

All the plates on kote etc, have holes around their edges through which
either the links of the mail pass, or where there is no mail, you use
thread to sew it down...

>You talked about a "running stitch"???what's
> that? i'm not a sewer.

Well there's another skill you'll need to learn to become a "Japanese"
armourer, ask someone you know who sews, or visit your local library and
get a book on sewing for beginners...

> Do a sew through the metal? Do i predrill
> little holes??

Yes, as I described above...

> I don't understand that part.

Good point, this is why I agree with Paul, go get your hands on the
"real" thing, it will all become clear, especially if you can find
someone who'll talk you through it while you have the armour in your
hands...

> 3. How do you put a running stitch across the middle of a solid
> panal of mail?

When I say "solid" I meant, composed of just mail, no plates, no big
gaps. The word "Mail" comes from Latin via medieval French, and it can
be translated as "net" or "mesh", its full of holes and you simply take
your thread and loop it round a bit of the mail "tying" it to the cloth.
It'll become obvious when you see a real kote up close.

> 4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions on how to lace
> lames together????? I just can't seem to get it right. My armor is
> all flimsy and isn't very rigid. My Lames are about 1.5" wide x
> 2.5" high 10gauge stainless steal.(free from work) I need to learn
> some better methods on lacing them together. I don't think i have
> enough hole punch in each lame? Website's don't really go into
> detail on putting more than 2 lames together.(that sucks) Anyway,
> if you have a good technique on lacing Lame armor, please let me
> know.

Again, I feel a major work coming on, sorry, go look at the real thing.
Also try getting hold of a book entitled:

"The Manufacture of Helmets and Armour in 16th Century Japan" by
Sekikabara Kozan translated by H.R.Robinson, and look at the diagrams in
the back...

And finally, re your other email, as to tools, again I suggest find
yourself a friendly local armourer and get their advice. Tony's website,
which Paul has given you will help you if you can't find someone to talk
to.

Anyway, I'm off to do all the other things that I'm supposed to be
doing, good luck with your project.

Yours

Dean

***
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HI

I live inthe Uk and have never seen the SCA.

I do a martial art that has a section for fighting in
armour. I now have a paul chen armour which I use for
bashing about in.

I started to dabble in simple armour making so I could
understand how the stuff worked etc. I have never
finished a set yet, I just have a go at bits and
pieces, never made anything yet of outstanding
quality. For good stuff in the USA you need to speak
with Anthony Bryant as he has had some really training
compared to some of us working from his notes and
making feable attempts.

Milwaukee public museum has about 11 sets of which I
htink 7 are on display (were last time I was there)
all of which are in excellent condition. They are
really good there and let me look at everything in the
stores and photo as much as I wanted. Shame was no one
there knows a thing about the stuff.

Paul

--- mark kd <depos42300@...> wrote:


---------------------------------

Hello again,
I just want to thank you guys(Dean & Paul) for the
great advice. I really appreciate you guys taking some
time out and explaining all of this stuff to me. I
might sound stupid, but, i never even thought of going
to a museum to see armor. That's a great idea!!!
Again, thanks a lot for all of the advice. I'll post
some pics up as i go along. Hope to hear some good
replies about it. Thank you.

Greatfully yours,

Mark

P.S.- do you guys ever go to any of the SCA events? I
live in Buffalo N.Y. so if you go to any in Rochester
N.Y. or most other cities in N.Y.,i might see ya
there.

Later Guys!!!!!

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi Mark,

Okay, to really answer your questions I'd have to
write a book, and a
pretty big one at that, and there is no way that I'm
adequately
qualified to even think about it, never mind the fact
that as I said
time is short, and your right that "sucks".

> Thank you very much for replying. Sucks you don't

have time. I have

> my first child coming in 1-2 weeks so i'll

probably understand what

> you mean.

Oh yeah, you definitely will....

> Oh well, i thought i'd ask anyways. (you

sure,...????

h yeah, I'm sure...

> $$$$$$) Let's keep it at that for now, but if you

change your mind

> u have my e-mail.

I have...

> Back to that first e-mail u sent me about
> stitching the armor to the fabrics...,...a couple

more ?'s then

> i'll stop bothering u for advice.

So folks, I'm a sucker...

> 1. So in actuallity, there are 4 layers of

clothe?

NO, just 3...

> Outer
> Layer(that's what you see on the outsite),

Yep...

> a layer of Cloth
> Hemp?(goes under outer layer)where can a get

that?what size?,

Yep, and don't worry about trying to get hemp, its
expensive, use
"linen", which is made from the "flax" plant, or just
a corse weave
cotton, almost like a sort of fine heavy sack cloth.
Go chat with a
cloth merchant...

> a
> layer of Very Very Very Thin Leather(goes under

hemp layer),

Er... no, the thin leather is the edge trim not a
layer...

> and
> then the Inner Shell

Yep..

>(goes under v v v thin leather)?

no, see above..

>is this layer
> leather?

no, this inner shell should be a soft linen, cotton or
rarely silk, it
has to be comfortable as it goes directly against your
bear skin...

> do i harden the leather?if so do i boil it and then

mold

> it to fit my arm? or does it stretch the whole

way down the entire

> KOTE and stay flexable?

as I said no leather layer, it goes on the edge only,
and if you boil
leather, you get soup..

> 2. I understand stitching the mail down but about

the plates.. How

> do sew them down.

All the plates on kote etc, have holes around their
edges through which
either the links of the mail pass, or where there is
no mail, you use
thread to sew it down...

>You talked about a "running stitch"???what's
> that? i'm not a sewer.

Well there's another skill you'll need to learn to
become a "Japanese"
armourer, ask someone you know who sews, or visit your
local library and
get a book on sewing for beginners...

> Do a sew through the metal? Do i predrill
> little holes??

Yes, as I described above...

> I don't understand that part.

Good point, this is why I agree with Paul, go get your
hands on the
"real" thing, it will all become clear, especially if
you can find
someone who'll talk you through it while you have the
armour in your
hands...

> 3. How do you put a running stitch across the

middle of a solid

> panal of mail?

When I say "solid" I meant, composed of just mail, no
plates, no big
gaps. The word "Mail" comes from Latin via medieval
French, and it can
be translated as "net" or "mesh", its full of holes
and you simply take
your thread and loop it round a bit of the mail
"tying" it to the cloth.
It'll become obvious when you see a real kote up
close.

> 4. Different topic. Do you have any instructions

on how to lace

> lames together????? I just can't seem to get it

right. My armor is

> all flimsy and isn't very rigid. My Lames are

about 1.5" wide x

> 2.5" high 10gauge stainless steal.(free from

work) I need to learn

> some better methods on lacing them together. I

don't think i have

> enough hole punch in each lame? Website's don't

really go into

> detail on putting more than 2 lames

together.(that sucks) Anyway,

> if you have a good technique on lacing Lame

armor, please let me

> know.

Again, I feel a major work coming on, sorry, go look
at the real thing.
Also try getting hold of a book entitled:

"The Manufacture of Helmets and Armour in 16th Century
Japan" by
Sekikabara Kozan translated by H.R.Robinson, and look
at the diagrams in
the back...

And finally, re your other email, as to tools, again I
suggest find
yourself a friendly local armourer and get their
advice. Tony's website,
which Paul has given you will help you if you can't
find someone to talk
to.

Anyway, I'm off to do all the other things that I'm
supposed to be
doing, good luck with your project.

Yours

Dean

***
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



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---


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---------------------------------
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__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com

Hi Marc,

> Hello again,
>   I just want to thank you guys(Dean & Paul) for the great advice.
> I really appreciate you guys taking some time out and explaining
> all of this stuff to me. I might sound stupid, but, i never even
> thought of going to a museum to see armor. That's a great idea!!!

Don't feel too bad about that one, most of us at one time or another had
no idea that museums could be that helpful:-)

> Again, thanks a lot for all of the advice. I'll post some pics up
> as i go along. Hope to hear some good replies about it. Thank you.

No problem, good luck, and most importantly of all, have fun!

> Greatfully yours,
> ������������������������������������������������������������� Mark
>
> P.S.- do you guys ever go to any of the SCA events? I live in
> Buffalo N.Y. so if you go to any in Rochester N.Y. or most other
> cities in N.Y.,i might see ya there.

Sorry Mark, like Paul I'm in the UK and I've never seen the SCA in
action, although I have bumped in to one or two of the local membership
over the years. I run a tiny Japanese re-enactment group under the title
of "Shogun", using my own fighting system which I've been teaching for
some twenty years or so now. Plus I run other events, so time is not
what I've got, so unless you ever get over here, we'll have to settle
for meeting here on this wonderful list.

Yours

Dean

***
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

To Dean & Paul,
I'll definitly drop a line if i'm ever in the UK. Again, thanks for everything and have fun. Like i said, i'll post some pics up as i go along. Off to school for me. Later Guys.
Yours,
Mark

Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:
Hi Marc,

> Hello again,
> I just want to thank you guys(Dean & Paul) for the great advice.
> I really appreciate you guys taking some time out and explaining
> all of this stuff to me. I might sound stupid, but, i never even
> thought of going to a museum to see armor. That's a great idea!!!

Don't feel too bad about that one, most of us at one time or another had
no idea that museums could be that helpful:-)

> Again, thanks a lot for all of the advice. I'll post some pics up
> as i go along. Hope to hear some good replies about it. Thank you.

No problem, good luck, and most importantly of all, have fun!

> Greatfully yours,
> Mark
>
> P.S.- do you guys ever go to any of the SCA events? I live in
> Buffalo N.Y. so if you go to any in Rochester N.Y. or most other
> cities in N.Y.,i might see ya there.

Sorry Mark, like Paul I'm in the UK and I've never seen the SCA in
action, although I have bumped in to one or two of the local membership
over the years. I run a tiny Japanese re-enactment group under the title
of "Shogun", using my own fighting system which I've been teaching for
some twenty years or so now. Plus I run other events, so time is not
what I've got, so unless you ever get over here, we'll have to settle
for meeting here on this wonderful list.

Yours

Dean

***
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



---
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---


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