Japanese Samurai History - killing brothers and fathers

#5845 [2004-11-01 00:15:47]

killing brothers and fathers

by yamaneko987

Hello,

I am new to the group, but hope you do not mind if I start by asking
a quick question: can anyone please tell me of some famous instances
of warriors killing their brothers and or fathers for any reason?

Thanks,

DJS

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#5849 [2004-11-01 01:15:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] killing brothers and fathers

by luke berryman

Sorry no I am new aswell but if I find any I will send you some.
Ok

yamaneko987 <yamaneko987@...> wrote:

Hello,

I am new to the group, but hope you do not mind if I start by asking
a quick question: can anyone please tell me of some famous instances
of warriors killing their brothers and or fathers for any reason?

Thanks,

DJS

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#5853 [2004-11-01 15:46:20]

Re: [samuraihistory] killing brothers and fathers

by ltdomer98

Well, there were plenty...

probably the most notable is Takeda Harunobu (later to
become the famous Takeda Shingen) deposing his father
and taking over the leadership of the clan. He worked
with Imagawa Yoshimoto to push his father aside.
Kitsuno (the list owner) has researched this recently,
so he's probably got better specs. If he's around....?

Nate

--- yamaneko987 <yamaneko987@...> wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> I am new to the group, but hope you do not mind if I
> start by asking
> a quick question: can anyone please tell me of some
> famous instances
> of warriors killing their brothers and or fathers
> for any reason?
>
> Thanks,
>
> DJS
>
>
>
>

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#6343 [2004-12-16 20:14:20]

Re: killing brothers and fathers

by kitsuno

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Well, there were plenty...
>
> probably the most notable is Takeda Harunobu (later to
> become the famous Takeda Shingen) deposing his father
> and taking over the leadership of the clan. He worked
> with Imagawa Yoshimoto to push his father aside.
> Kitsuno (the list owner) has researched this recently,
> so he's probably got better specs. If he's around....?
>
> Nate
>
> --- yamaneko987 wrote:
>
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am new to the group, but hope you do not mind if I
> > start by asking
> > a quick question: can anyone please tell me of some
> > famous instances
> > of warriors killing their brothers and or fathers
> > for any reason?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > DJS

You can see I'm a little behind in the posts, but anyway, Shingen
didn't actually kill his father. (although he did kill his son
Yoshinobu) I researched this fairly thouroughly at the library, and
this is what I found, basically cut and pasted right from what I
added about it to the Takeda Shingen bio. Shingen was actually one
of the few that let his father live, from what I can tell:

"In 1541 Harunobu suddenly rebelled, supported by a great many of
his father's retainers. Nobutora submitted with little bloodshed and
Harunobu exiled his father to Suruga. In this act he had the aid of
the top Takeda retainers, many of whom held personal grudges against
Nobutora or at least saw some gain in assisting the young usurper to
power. Nobushige, for his part, seems to have borne his brother no
ill will, and became a valued retainer. Sources conflict on what the
exact events where which led to the replacement of Nobuhide with
Harunobu. One version of events is that in the 5th month of 1541,
Nobutora and Harunobu went on a campaign together to attack Unno
Munetsuna in Shinano province. Unno Munetsuna lost and fled the
province, and by the 4th day of the 6th month, they were on thier
way back to Kai. However, on the 10th day of thier trip back to Kai
province, Harunobu suddenly rebelled in a coup supported by his
ashigaru and retainers, forcing Nobutora to flee to Suruga Province,
and in to the care of his daughter's husband, Imagawa Yoshimoto.
This generally follows the Koyogunkan, which essentialy states that
Harunobu uncovered a plot by Nobutora to dispose of him and
eventually give control of the Takeda clan to his younger brother,
Nobushige. According to the Koyogunkan, Harunobu and loyal vassals
drove Nobutora out of Kai province into Suruga. Another version of
events states that during the 6th month of 1541, Harunobu and
Nobutora travelled to Suruga province to visit upon Nobutora's son
in law, Imagawa Yoshimoto. Little did Nobutora know, Shingen and
Yoshimoto had a secret agreement, and upon arrival, Nobutora was
forcibly retired to Suruga castle, and his son Harunobu was given
control of the Takeda clan. Although what really happened is not
clear, historians seem to be in agreement that Imagawa Yoshimoto had
a hand in the removal of Nobutora. Regardless , Harunobu took
control of the clan in what is often specifically cited as
a 'bloodless coup'."

http://www.samurai-archives.com/shingen.html

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#6346 [2004-12-16 20:41:13]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: killing brothers and fathers

by ltdomer98

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> You can see I'm a little behind in the posts, but
> anyway, Shingen
> didn't actually kill his father.

Hence my use of the word "deposed".

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