Re:

Hi all,
Regarding the book 'Shogun' by James Clavell...Is it fiction? Yes,
basically..It and the storyline that it follows do have parrallels in actual
events and people involved in those events. Ieyasu Tokugawa was the character
chosen for the basis of the 'Toranaga' character. And Blackthorne was loosely
based on the story of the english sailor Will Adams, who was likewise
stranded in Japan around the end of the Sengoku Jidai and was 'adopted' into
the Samurai world in a very similar way to that of Blackthorne.
Indeed, I heard that when finally Adams was fully 'released' (He was not a
captive but was held indefinately for the 'use' of the Tokugawa house who saw
him as a possible way to forge a trade agreement that was not aligned with
the Religious ideals of the Portuguese and Spanish traders.) And a boat was
sent to bring to home he actually refused to leave Japan and settled into a
part of Tokyo (Edo then..) that I believe is still called Anjin-cho in his
honour!
The book follows the same basic line of history as the actual events and the
names are changed to avoid any problems with the story..It plays out well
though and can offer the reader an excellent way 'in' to the world of the
Samurai.
Enjoy the read!
Abayo..
Ben Sharples.

My interest in japanese history is great, but my
knowledge isn't.

I have done a lot of research on the Net, for a book
i'm writing, and i've read some literature from the
period.

I want to know if there are any Uni or college classes
around.

Also, it seems like most of you in this group know a
hell of a lot about this subject, so I thought that
some of you may have qualifications in Japanese
history. Am I right?

Regards,

Lee

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Shogun is my favourite book. Its the kind of book that
absorbs you into the world it is set in. It is truly
amazing how much detail was in it.

Clavell got the samurai's way of life perfect. The
only complaint I have, is that I wish he wrote the
last battle in first person perspective. There was
such a build up to it. It doesn't spoil the book
though, not even close.

I get shivers up my spine every time I read it.

A great book,

Lee

__________________________________________________
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from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
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--- In samuraihistory@y..., lee thompson wrote:

> My interest in japanese history is great, but my
> knowledge isn't.

> I want to know if there are any Uni or college classes
> around.

Absolutely. University of Hawaii has a very broad Asian History
program that includes Japanese History, Berkeley and Princeton have
good programs, there's one in Chicago that's well known, and others
around the country. Sometimes they fall under history in college
programs, sometimes under East Asian culture (I think Harvard does
this), but there are definitely college course in Japanese history out
there...

It does depend on what periods of japanese history you're looking
for, the general breakdown seemed to be (prehistory thru Sengoku),
(Sengoku to Meiji), (late Tokugawa to some time in the 29th Century).
Different schools will have teachers who specialize in different
periods and aspects within those periods (Dr Mary Berry at Berkeley,
for example, wrote about Sengoku period Kyoto and the effects of war
on the culture of its inhabitants).

Alex Hazlett

lee thompson wrote:

> My interest in japanese history is great, but my
> knowledge isn't.
>
> I have done a lot of research on the Net, for a book
> i'm writing, and i've read some literature from the
> period.
>

What's the period?

>
> I want to know if there are any Uni or college classes
> around.
>

Where is "around"?

>
> Also, it seems like most of you in this group know a
> hell of a lot about this subject, so I thought that
> some of you may have qualifications in Japanese
> history. Am I right?

I'm doing the grad thing at IU right now, myself; I've also written a few
popular (vs. academic) histories of Japan.


Tony

lee thompson wrote:

> Shogun is my favourite book. Its the kind of book that
> absorbs you into the world it is set in. It is truly
> amazing how much detail was in it.
>
> Clavell got the samurai's way of life perfect. The
> only complaint I have, is that I wish he wrote the
> last battle in first person perspective. There was
> such a build up to it. It doesn't spoil the book
> though, not even close.
>
> I get shivers up my spine every time I read it.

I'm torn by it.

Part of me loves it and I owe it a great debt. When I was in college in the
late 70s I read it, and it is what inspired me to go off and major in
Japanese history and go to Japan and yada yada yada. After decades of
studying Japan and writing about it, though, I can no longer read it as the
mistakes and "that never could have happened that way" events in the book
just don't work for me any more. I used to read it once a year or so. I
haven't read it for ten years now.

Tony

--- In samuraihistory@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:

> I'm doing the grad thing at IU right now, myself; I've also written

a few

> popular (vs. academic) histories of Japan.
>
>
> Tony

You are too modest, sir -- those are great books, I have them
sitting in the middle of my collection on Japan. When I worked at the
Borders bookstores in Hawaii, I made it a point to pick them out when
customers were looking for info on the samurai. I hope you'll write us
lots more, both scholarly books and popular books.

I wasn't trying to slur popular writings on Japan, I have a
shelfload of such works, and every professor I studied under did too
(where else can you find the cool pictures and stories that will
enliven a lecture?)

Thanks again for writing them, I hope your studies go well (I ended
up sliding sideways out of Japanese History into Nautical Archaeology
myself...)

Alex Hazlett

alexdhaze wrote:

> You are too modest, sir -- those are great books, I have them
> sitting in the middle of my collection on Japan. When I worked at the
> Borders bookstores in Hawaii, I made it a point to pick them out when
> customers were looking for info on the samurai. I hope you'll write us
> lots more, both scholarly books and popular books.
>

I hope to.

>
> I wasn't trying to slur popular writings on Japan,

Oh, no problem. I didn't think you were. I have to make the difference
between histories like mine and those of Karl Friday, for example, though.
It's been my experience that most people read my books and Turnbull's, and
never want to get to the deeper backgrounds that mean academic works like
"Gates of Power: Monks, Courtiers, and Warriors in Premodern Japan" or
"Yoritomo and the Founding of the Kamakura Shogunate", both of which are
replete with quotations and translated source material from primary sources.
That is something that disappoints me.

> I have a
> shelfload of such works, and every professor I studied under did too
> (where else can you find the cool pictures and stories that will
> enliven a lecture?)
>

Good point. Heck, I had one professor *quote me* BACK to me (and the rest of
the class) in a lecture about Sekigahara. You know how good that feels?

>
> Thanks again for writing them, I hope your studies go well (I ended
> up sliding sideways out of Japanese History into Nautical Archaeology
> myself...)

This is a cool thing. When you have time, e-mail me, and I'll tell you about
a long-held dream of mine that is right up our mutual alleys.


Tony

You are too modest, sir -- those are great books.

Must concur--super stuff! I used your Sekigahara book as a guide when I
walked the Sekigahara battlefield in 1999 during my in-country training as a
Japan-focused US Army foreign area officer. It was a lifesaver, especially
since the local guidebooks and signs are not particularly "gaijin friendly."
Your other works are equally helpful, and a pleasure to read.

My MA thesis ended up being about the Japanese 1941-42 Centrifugal Offensive
in the Southwest Pacific, but I hope to write on the Senkoku Jidai in the
future. Wouldn't object to putting together an Osprey book on the Imperial
Japanese Army in the early 40s (Lord knows I've got more than enough source
material to do one!), but I suspect there's not much of an English-speaking
audience for one . . .

Keep on plugging--I can't wait for your thesis or your first academic work to
come out!

Cordially,
Patrick Howard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm talking about the sengoku period, I live in the
North of England.

If anyone knows of any courses I can take, I would
appreciate if you told me.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Everything you'll ever need on one web page
from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
http://uk.my.yahoo.com

> Good point. Heck, I had one professor *quote me* BACK to me (and the rest of
> the class) in a lecture about Sekigahara. You know how good that feels?

> Tony

Did he get it correct?

--

yumitori(AT)montana(DOT)com

Hi there,
I have no idea about courses run in the North of England but in London there
is a very good university by the name of S.O.A.S. (School of Oriental and
African studies-Try a search for it).
It is in central London and runs some very good courses on Japanese History,
art, Eastern philosophies, and other subjects..The history section would
include the Heian period, through to the Showa period and this includes
obviously the Sengoku Jidai..Although I have never seen a course specifically
focussed on that era alone...I would find that amazing if there is one..Much
of my knowledge is specifically on that period and the course would be very
worthwhile to do..Keep us informed if you find one like this.
Abayo.
Ben Sharples.

----- Original Message------
It's been my experience that most people read my books and Turnbull's,
and

> never want to get to the deeper backgrounds that mean academic works like
> "Gates of Power: Monks, Courtiers, and Warriors in Premodern Japan" or
> "Yoritomo and the Founding of the Kamakura Shogunate", both of which are
> replete with quotations and translated source material from primary

sources.

> That is something that disappoints me.
>

The problem is is that these and other books are often dreary academic
texts. I have read "Gates of power" and might read the book on Yoritomo. I
saw it in the bookstore and the apprehension I have is that it's not really
a flesh and blood biography of him. I would much rather prefer to read a
book on him written say in the style Amy Kelly wrote on Eleonor of Aquitane.
If she could write that kind of book on a famous person in the 12th century
somebody could write one on Yoritomo. The other apprehension is that
Yoritomo book is 8000 yen. For me a least its not a question of not wanting
to delve deeper into more serious works. Its that the feild of Japanese
historigraphy is lacking in truly talented writers that can be found in
other fields eg Robert Massie, Simon Schama, Stephan Ambrose. That is
something that disappoints me.

>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> The problem is is that these and other books are often dreary academic
> texts. I have read "Gates of power" and might read the book on

Yoritomo. I

> saw it in the bookstore and the apprehension I have is that it's not

really

> a flesh and blood biography of him. I would much rather prefer to read

a

> book on him written say in the style Amy Kelly wrote on Eleonor of

Aquitane.

> If she could write that kind of book on a famous person in the 12th

century

> somebody could write one on Yoritomo. The other apprehension is that
> Yoritomo book is 8000 yen. For me a least its not a question of not

wanting

> to delve deeper into more serious works. Its that the feild of

Japanese

> historigraphy is lacking in truly talented writers that can be found

in

> other fields eg Robert Massie, Simon Schama, Stephan Ambrose. That is
> something that disappoints me.

You either want popular history or an academic history; you
unfortunately can't get both. Out of the list you give above, Schama is
the only exception to the generalization. While Ambrose was trained as
a historian, you need to be checking the newspapers more, he is under
heavy fire for plagiarism and getting his facts screwed up. I have yet
to meet any AHA members who liked Massie's books as an ACADEMIC book.
Maybe they are out there, but I haven't seen them come forward. The
same criticisms are leveled at Tuchman and Cantor's recent works.

Best, Mark Hall

Not to attack the sacred cow, but Turnbull can definately not be accused of being an acedemic, or a 'true' historian. Many of his books are filled with small errors and innaccuracies that he very obviously took verbatim from Papinot - although he NEVER mentions Papinot in his sources... Looking at his books, his information, and his sources together, one has to wonder if he can even read Japanese at all...

*ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of Inabayama took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in Japanese, including a few he lists in his bibliography state it happened in 1567. So you may be thinking, 'what's two or three years?' Well, what if I told you the battle of Gettysburg took place in 1866? Oops!

You could write a treatise on just the errors and uncited Papinot sources alone. Not to mention a picture listed as an 'authors representation' of something that actually looks suspiciously like a tracing of a picture in a Rekishi gunzo book. (Dont have his book or the Gunzo book on hand right now to cite which one)
Guess because he's the only game in town he thinks he doesn't have to work at it anymore...? I've seen him mentioned as Stephen "buy my books" Turnbull in some post before, and I can see why. Just take a look at his website. You can't help but get the impression scholarship takes a definate backseat to profit. guess I can't really blame the guy, though. Gotta put food on the table somehow.

Anyway, I'd rather read 'dry' histories if they are more accurate than 'popular' histories, although I'd prefer to read an accurate popular history! (like A.J. Bryant's stuff! At least you get the impression that he has a real interest in the subject, and can actually read japanese, and actually puts in the research!)

Oh well, just a rant on my part, and I could very well be totally wrong.

--- In samuraihistory@y..., lee thompson wrote:

> I'm talking about the sengoku period, I live in the
> North of England.
>
> If anyone knows of any courses I can take, I would
> appreciate if you told me.

Hi Lee I live in the North of England as well although currently at
Leicester university BA ancient history archaeology. I have same
problem. I searched for universities doing Japanese history maybe
this link will help ucas courses in Japanese
http://search.ucas.co.uk/cgi-
bin/hsrun.hse/search/cs2002/StateId/SWOF4ceLfru0zjGbsoww_kYWVbiHE-3vJ-
/HAHTpage/cs2002.Hsindex10.run?r=N&i=N&a=36 It should work all Japan
courses. Specific history Im unsure I saw Sheffield does a course my
friends there she recommends the university. University of Leeds
also does a course. Leeds is fantastic my sisters there. I don't
know what course is like but the place rocks. Sorry this is a bit
off the subject. Well Takeda Shingen then hmmm. Oh well back to
question. In my opinion I'd forget university and go to Japan as the
books you get in university are not as good as Japanese books. Plus
you can buy the books on the net or whatever. At Leicester I have
found about 20 decent books ones hidden away in a dark corner
including Farris, Friday, jansen, Turnbull- yes but no I avoid, Ooms
and Sansom-classix etc. Anyway good luck I'd look at ucas and search
but unless your parents object consider going to Japan and if they do
well do it anyway if your serious. Also just remembered you gotta go
to the royal armouries in Leeds it has fantastic bushi exhibits, some
armour 15 suits, and it emphazises the buke as a horse back archer.
I have visited three times spoke to curartor Ian Bottomley who wrote
book arms and armour of the samurai, nice guy saw bit behind the
scenes. I took 75 photos that's how damn good it was. P.S I don't
live in Leeds just like the place !!!

All the best Mark

Ron Martino wrote:

> > Good point. Heck, I had one professor *quote me* BACK to me (and the rest of
> > the class) in a lecture about Sekigahara. You know how good that feels?
>
> > Tony
>
> Did he get it correct?
>

Yup.

Tony

Howardcp@... wrote:

> You are too modest, sir -- those are great books.
>
> Must concur--super stuff! I used your Sekigahara book as a guide when I
> walked the Sekigahara battlefield in 1999 during my in-country training as a
> Japan-focused US Army foreign area officer. It was a lifesaver, especially
> since the local guidebooks and signs are not particularly "gaijin friendly."
> Your other works are equally helpful, and a pleasure to read.
>

Thank you. My particular favorite is Sekigahara. Did you visit the "Warland"?
Some nice armours, but some really cheesey statuary.

>
> My MA thesis ended up being about the Japanese 1941-42 Centrifugal Offensive
> in the Southwest Pacific, but I hope to write on the Senkoku Jidai in the
> future. Wouldn't object to putting together an Osprey book on the Imperial
> Japanese Army in the early 40s (Lord knows I've got more than enough source
> material to do one!), but I suspect there's not much of an English-speaking
> audience for one . . .
>

You never know.

>
> Keep on plugging--I can't wait for your thesis or your first academic work to
> come out!

Thanks. I wouldn't mind seeing them, too.

Tony

kitsuno wrote:

> Not to attack the sacred cow, but Turnbull can definately not be accused of being an acedemic, or a 'true' historian. Many of his books are filled with small errors and innaccuracies that he very obviously took verbatim from Papinot - although he NEVER mentions Papinot in his sources... Looking at his books, his information, and his sources together, one has to wonder if he can even read Japanese at all...
>

Most books are filled with small errors. I would kill for a chance to go back and rewrite huge swaths of my first book or two.

And, yes, he speaks Japanese. You've never seen his history of the "kakure kirishitan." Don't forget, he does have a Ph.D.

>
> *ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of Inabayama took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in Japanese, including a few he lists in his bibliography state it happened in 1567. So you may be thinking, 'what's two or three years?' Well, what if I told you the battle of Gettysburg took place in 1866? Oops!
>

The difference is, there was one war around from 1861 to 1865. There was pretty much constant warfare during the 1560s, so any date would be plausable. Of course, that is odd, since my sources all say 1567, too...

>
> You could write a treatise on just the errors and uncited Papinot sources alone. Not to mention a picture listed as an 'authors representation' of something that actually looks suspiciously like a tracing of a picture in a Rekishi gunzo book. (Dont have his book or the Gunzo book on hand right now to cite which one)
> Guess because he's the only game in town he thinks he doesn't have to work at it anymore...? I've seen him mentioned as Stephen "buy my books" Turnbull in some post before, and I can see why. Just take a look at his website. You can't help but get the impression scholarship takes a definate backseat to profit. guess I can't really blame the guy, though. Gotta put food on the table somehow.
>

Heck, I'm envious.

>
> Anyway, I'd rather read 'dry' histories if they are more accurate than 'popular' histories, although I'd prefer to read an accurate popular history! (like A.J. Bryant's stuff! At least you get the impression that he has a real interest in the subject, and can actually read japanese, and actually puts in the research!)
>

LOL! Thanks, but I'm just this guy.


Tony

Yes you raise some good points. Basically I'm not a historian just a guy who
loves reading history so the type of history books I would prefer to read
are 'popular'. I guess trained historians are interested in such academic
books, but I'm just looking for a good story. So in reply to Mr. Byants
comment that people don't delve farther into the feild my feeling is those
books arn't very interesting to an amatuer historian. As for Massie, James
Mcpherson who wrote the Civil War history "Battle Cry of Freedom" said that
there was proffesional envy that his book sold well. Maybe this is the case
with Massie (maybe not). In any event I'm not that interested in what the
AHA thinks about an author, I liked his books and will read him again. As
for Ambrose well I live in Japan (for some 8 years) so I haven't seen
anything about his case. If true its sad because he is a good writer. So
what I want to say is that I wish there were more popoular histories written
about Japan. Imagine if someone wrote a book on the Meiji Restoration the
way Simon Schama wrote about the French Revolution, or a biography of Oda
Nobunaga on the scale of Massies Peter the Great. Wishful thinking.

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark E. Hall <markhall@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books


>
>
>
> > The problem is is that these and other books are often dreary academic
> > texts. I have read "Gates of power" and might read the book on
> Yoritomo. I
> > saw it in the bookstore and the apprehension I have is that it's not
> really
> > a flesh and blood biography of him. I would much rather prefer to read
> a
> > book on him written say in the style Amy Kelly wrote on Eleonor of
> Aquitane.
> > If she could write that kind of book on a famous person in the 12th
> century
> > somebody could write one on Yoritomo. The other apprehension is that
> > Yoritomo book is 8000 yen. For me a least its not a question of not
> wanting
> > to delve deeper into more serious works. Its that the feild of
> Japanese
> > historigraphy is lacking in truly talented writers that can be found
> in
> > other fields eg Robert Massie, Simon Schama, Stephan Ambrose. That is
> > something that disappoints me.
>
> You either want popular history or an academic history; you
> unfortunately can't get both. Out of the list you give above, Schama is
> the only exception to the generalization. While Ambrose was trained as
> a historian, you need to be checking the newspapers more, he is under
> heavy fire for plagiarism and getting his facts screwed up. I have yet
> to meet any AHA members who liked Massie's books as an ACADEMIC book.
> Maybe they are out there, but I haven't seen them come forward. The
> same criticisms are leveled at Tuchman and Cantor's recent works.
>
> Best, Mark Hall
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

William,

>
> Yes you raise some good points. Basically I'm not a historian just a

guy who

> loves reading history so the type of history books I would prefer to

read

> are 'popular'. I guess trained historians are interested in such

academic

> books, but I'm just looking for a good story.

I am in no means belittling your taste in books by my comments. It's
just that there is a big gulf, and it's probably widening with the
scholarly book market and the academic book market.

>So in reply to Mr. Byants
> comment that people don't delve farther into the feild my feeling is

those

> books arn't very interesting to an amatuer historian. As for Massie,

James

> Mcpherson who wrote the Civil War history "Battle Cry of Freedom" said

that

> there was proffesional envy that his book sold well. Maybe this is the

case

> with Massie (maybe not). In any event I'm not that interested in what

the

> AHA thinks about an author, I liked his books and will read him again.

Professional historians do have to worry about the AHA and what it says.
Like any profession or professionals....

Massie incidentally also got into deep trouble in the publishing world
since he was given a very large advance, produced nothing, and was
threatened with legal action (or maybe taken to court) over the Peter
the Great volume. Stunts like this do not endear you with publishers no
matter how good your sales...

>As
> for Ambrose well I live in Japan (for some 8 years) so I haven't seen
> anything about his case. If true its sad because he is a good writer.

Well, I live in Japan too, but I make sure I daily go through the
electronic edition of the NYTIMES and a few other foreign based papers
every so many days. The NYTIMES has given it coverage, but not sure if
they are still free. The issue has been discussed at length on the
H-WAR list. They have public archives at www.h-net.msu.edu (click the
appropriate buttons to find H-WAR, and then just search the H-WAR list.

>So
> what I want to say is that I wish there were more popoular histories

written

> about Japan. Imagine if someone wrote a book on the Meiji Restoration

the

> way Simon Schama wrote about the French Revolution, or a biography of

Oda

> Nobunaga on the scale of Massies Peter the Great. Wishful thinking.

Probably so for a variety of reasons.

Later, MEH

William Letham wrote:

> Yes you raise some good points. Basically I'm not a historian just a guy who
> loves reading history so the type of history books I would prefer to read
> are 'popular'.

I think the trouble is, there's a *perception* of academic vs. popular. Most
academic books are no more difficult to read, they just tend to have a tighter
focus on a specific topic or issue. One is free to ignore the seriously
academic trappings (usually found in the footnotes, which publishers, fearful
of the book being deemed "too academic," tend to hide in the back of the book
and make reading it by academics difficult due to the constant flipping back
and forth) and just read the book. I don't know anyone who's read "Heavenly
Warriors" or "Hired Swords" -- two of the best texts on the development of the
early warrior culture -- who hasn't come away with a deeper understanding of
the material and where samurai came from and how they developed. Though
universities use these in upper-level courses in J. history, they are extremely
accessible.

The same goes for "Gates of Power" and any number of other books. If one is
interested in a specific area, one should be willing to at least take a look at
the books before dismissing them.

> I guess trained historians are interested in such academic
> books, but I'm just looking for a good story.

What do you consider a good story? "Hired Swords" is full of interesting
anecdotes about the evil taxman and how they behaved (I enjoy the quoted letter
of complaint that talks about how they ride their horses right into people's
houses... ).

> So in reply to Mr. Byants
> comment that people don't delve farther into the feild my feeling is those
> books arn't very interesting to an amatuer historian.

No book is interesting unless you crack the cover and take a look inside. I
have been pleasantly surprised on more than one occasion by a book which, even
though in my field, I was sure would bore me to tears. There are cases when I
was right and was bored, but I'm happy to say the ratio is in favor of good.

> As for Massie, James
> Mcpherson who wrote the Civil War history "Battle Cry of Freedom" said that
> there was proffesional envy that his book sold well. Maybe this is the case
> with Massie (maybe not).

This happens. In fact, I've encountered a bit of... well, difficulty... in some
areas because of my Osprey books. While they're nothing I'm ashamed of
(although I really want to redo some of them!), there is a certain perception
in some areas that I'm not willing to do "academic" work. I'm currently trying
to disabuse people of these efforts with translations of 14th. century Japanese
literature and records.

> In any event I'm not that interested in what the
> AHA thinks about an author, I liked his books and will read him again. As
> for Ambrose well I live in Japan (for some 8 years) so I haven't seen
> anything about his case. If true its sad because he is a good writer. So
> what I want to say is that I wish there were more popoular histories written
> about Japan. Imagine if someone wrote a book on the Meiji Restoration the
> way Simon Schama wrote about the French Revolution, or a biography of Oda
> Nobunaga on the scale of Massies Peter the Great. Wishful thinking.

The trouble is, there's not much of a market in English on such exotic fellows
who most people have never heard of; we generally have to aim for the markets
that exist (academia), small though they be.

Tony

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Ron Martino wrote:
>
> > > Good point. Heck, I had one professor *quote me*
> BACK to me (and the rest of
> > > the class) in a lecture about Sekigahara. You
> know how good that feels?
> >
> > > Tony
> >
> > Did he get it correct?
> >
>
> Yup.
>
> Tony

Did he know he was quoting his student?

Nate


__________________________________________________
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http://sports.yahoo.com

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> Did he know he was quoting his student?

Oh, yes. He made a point of it, and mentioned who I was to the class.

Tony

Well, maybe I'm being overly critical of turnbull, but many of the
errors have been repeated for the past 20 years... anyway, I thought
his PhD was 'honorary', as opposed to earned ;)
Anyway, he makes more money doing what he does than I do, so more
power to him!

The fact that he 'borrows' liberaly from Papinot without citing it
does bug me though...

oh well, must be just sour grapes on my part :(

> Most books are filled with small errors. I would kill for a chance

to go back and rewrite huge swaths of my first book or two.

>
> And, yes, he speaks Japanese. You've never seen his history of the

"kakure kirishitan." Don't forget, he does have a Ph.D.

>
> >
> > *ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of

Inabayama took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in
Japanese, including a few he lists in his bibliography state it
happened in 1567. So you may be thinking, 'what's two or three
years?' Well, what if I told you the battle of Gettysburg took place
in 1866? Oops!

> >
>
> The difference is, there was one war around from 1861 to 1865. There

was pretty much constant warfare during the 1560s, so any date would
be plausable. Of course, that is odd, since my sources all say 1567,
too...

>
> >
> > You could write a treatise on just the errors and uncited Papinot

sources alone. Not to mention a picture listed as an 'authors
representation' of something that actually looks suspiciously like a
tracing of a picture in a Rekishi gunzo book. (Dont have his book or
the Gunzo book on hand right now to cite which one)

> > Guess because he's the only game in town he thinks he doesn't have

to work at it anymore...? I've seen him mentioned as Stephen "buy my
books" Turnbull in some post before, and I can see why. Just take a
look at his website. You can't help but get the impression
scholarship takes a definate backseat to profit. guess I can't really
blame the guy, though. Gotta put food on the table somehow.

> >
>
> Heck, I'm envious.
>
> >
> > Anyway, I'd rather read 'dry' histories if they are more accurate

than 'popular' histories, although I'd prefer to read an accurate
popular history! (like A.J. Bryant's stuff! At least you get the
impression that he has a real interest in the subject, and can
actually read japanese, and actually puts in the research!)

> >
>
> LOL! Thanks, but I'm just this guy.
>
>
> Tony

THat is so way sugoi!!

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> >
> > Did he know he was quoting his student?
>
> Oh, yes. He made a point of it, and mentioned who I
> was to the class.
>
> Tony
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

The thing is is that I have read all those books and more (Hall, Mass,
Farris, Goble, Varley, Friday, Totman, etc etc) , then when I go to
Kinokuniya or Maruzen and see the wealth of books on Samurai (Rekishi Gunzo
is just the tip of the iceberg) and wealth of detail in them (serious and
nonserious) and I sigh that such info simply isn't available in the
aforementioned writers. For example Imagawa Yoshimoto was a mamas boy and
his mother practically ran his domain. The Visual Nihon Rekishi Series put
out by DeAogustini or the similiar Nihonshi by Kodansha or the the Sengoku
Chronicle give an almost month by month chronicle of the period. I do see
the arguement that such works wouldn't sell, but even a tenth of this would
be nice.

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony J. Bryant <ajbryant@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books


> William Letham wrote:
>
> > Yes you raise some good points. Basically I'm not a historian just a guy
who
> > loves reading history so the type of history books I would prefer to
read
> > are 'popular'.
>
> I think the trouble is, there's a *perception* of academic vs. popular.
Most
> academic books are no more difficult to read, they just tend to have a
tighter
> focus on a specific topic or issue. One is free to ignore the seriously
> academic trappings (usually found in the footnotes, which publishers,
fearful
> of the book being deemed "too academic," tend to hide in the back of the
book
> and make reading it by academics difficult due to the constant flipping
back
> and forth) and just read the book. I don't know anyone who's read
"Heavenly
> Warriors" or "Hired Swords" -- two of the best texts on the development of
the
> early warrior culture -- who hasn't come away with a deeper understanding
of
> the material and where samurai came from and how they developed. Though
> universities use these in upper-level courses in J. history, they are
extremely
> accessible.
>
> The same goes for "Gates of Power" and any number of other books. If one
is
> interested in a specific area, one should be willing to at least take a
look at
> the books before dismissing them.
>
> > I guess trained historians are interested in such academic
> > books, but I'm just looking for a good story.
>
> What do you consider a good story? "Hired Swords" is full of interesting
> anecdotes about the evil taxman and how they behaved (I enjoy the quoted
letter
> of complaint that talks about how they ride their horses right into
people's
> houses... ).
>
> > So in reply to Mr. Byants
> > comment that people don't delve farther into the feild my feeling is
those
> > books arn't very interesting to an amatuer historian.
>
> No book is interesting unless you crack the cover and take a look inside.
I
> have been pleasantly surprised on more than one occasion by a book which,
even
> though in my field, I was sure would bore me to tears. There are cases
when I
> was right and was bored, but I'm happy to say the ratio is in favor of
good.
>
>
> > As for Massie, James
> > Mcpherson who wrote the Civil War history "Battle Cry of Freedom" said
that
> > there was proffesional envy that his book sold well. Maybe this is the
case
> > with Massie (maybe not).
>
> This happens. In fact, I've encountered a bit of... well, difficulty... in
some
> areas because of my Osprey books. While they're nothing I'm ashamed of
> (although I really want to redo some of them!), there is a certain
perception
> in some areas that I'm not willing to do "academic" work. I'm currently
trying
> to disabuse people of these efforts with translations of 14th. century
Japanese
> literature and records.
>
> > In any event I'm not that interested in what the
> > AHA thinks about an author, I liked his books and will read him again.
As
> > for Ambrose well I live in Japan (for some 8 years) so I haven't seen
> > anything about his case. If true its sad because he is a good writer. So
> > what I want to say is that I wish there were more popoular histories
written
> > about Japan. Imagine if someone wrote a book on the Meiji Restoration
the
> > way Simon Schama wrote about the French Revolution, or a biography of
Oda
> > Nobunaga on the scale of Massies Peter the Great. Wishful thinking.
>
> The trouble is, there's not much of a market in English on such exotic
fellows
> who most people have never heard of; we generally have to aim for the
markets
> that exist (academia), small though they be.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

> > for Ambrose well I live in Japan (for some 8 years) so I haven't seen
> > anything about his case. If true its sad because he is a good writer.
>
> Well, I live in Japan too, but I make sure I daily go through the
> electronic edition of the NYTIMES and a few other foreign based papers
> every so many days. The NYTIMES has given it coverage, but not sure if
> they are still free. The issue has been discussed at length on the
> H-WAR list. They have public archives at www.h-net.msu.edu (click the
> appropriate buttons to find H-WAR, and then just search the H-WAR list.
>

Well maybe I should say I live in Japan AND have gotten pretty lazy about
keeping up with whats new. I used to watch CNN all the time. In any event I
used Ambrose only as an example. What part of Nihon are you in? I'm in the
Osaka area.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

> Well maybe I should say I live in Japan AND have gotten pretty lazy about
> keeping up with whats new. I used to watch CNN all the time. In any event I
> used Ambrose only as an example. What part of Nihon are you in? I'm in the
> Osaka area.
>

Niigata Prefecture---yuki no kuni. I work for the Niigata Prefectural Museum
( www.nbz.or.jp/eng ). Our last special exhibit was on Uesugi Kenshin no less.

The Ambrose news is almost as big as the Besailles news ( a historian who is
accused of fabricating his data on gun ownership in the Early American Republic
no less...

Best, Mark Hall

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> THat is so way sugoi!!
>

I got a kick out of it.

"None of you may know this, but you have someone in this class with you who
literally wrote the book on Sekigahara. So we've talked about Hideyoshi and
his unification but he was out of the picture. As Tony put it so succinctly,
'Toyotomi Hideyoshi was dead.' And that really was the problem."


Tony

Thought you might be interested,

>
> *ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of Inabayama

took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in Japanese,
including a few he lists in his bibliography state it happened in 1567. So
you may be thinking, 'what's two or three years?' Well, what if I told you
the battle of Gettysburg took place in 1866? Oops!

>

This is from page 27 of Japonius Tyrannus the bio of Nobunaga by Jeroen
Lamers:

"It has been unclear for a very long time in precisely which year exactly
Nobunaga took this mountain castle [Inabayama]. Matsuda Ryo, a local
historian of Gifu Prefecture has convincingly argued that Nobunaga first
captured Mount Inaba in 1564, lost it again to Tatsuoki in 1565, and finally
took possession of the castle in June 1567."

He cites the book 'Nobunaga no Mino koryaku-shi kenkyu' by Matsuda Ryo for
this info.

>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

what ever happened to 'peer review'...? He would definately benefit...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Letham [SMTP:samuraiw@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:16 AM
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books
>
>
> Thought you might be interested,
> >
> > *ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of
> Inabayama
> took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in Japanese,
> including a few he lists in his bibliography state it happened in 1567.
> So
> you may be thinking, 'what's two or three years?' Well, what if I told
> you
> the battle of Gettysburg took place in 1866? Oops!
> >
> This is from page 27 of Japonius Tyrannus the bio of Nobunaga by Jeroen
> Lamers:
>
> "It has been unclear for a very long time in precisely which year exactly
> Nobunaga took this mountain castle [Inabayama]. Matsuda Ryo, a local
> historian of Gifu Prefecture has convincingly argued that Nobunaga first
> captured Mount Inaba in 1564, lost it again to Tatsuoki in 1565, and
> finally
> took possession of the castle in June 1567."
>
> He cites the book 'Nobunaga no Mino koryaku-shi kenkyu' by Matsuda Ryo for
> this info.
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Between you and me what do you think about this information. Lamars didn't
go in any detail on what was 'convincingly' argued. There is nothing in the
Sengoku Chronicle, which while not an academic work, gives a very detailed
chronology of the period.

As for Turnbull I did get his new one 'Samurai Invasion'.

----- Original Message -----
From: <westce@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 1:59 AM
Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books


> what ever happened to 'peer review'...? He would definately benefit...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: William Letham [SMTP:samuraiw@...]
> > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:16 AM
> > To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books
> >
> >
> > Thought you might be interested,
> > >
> > > *ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of
> > Inabayama
> > took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in Japanese,
> > including a few he lists in his bibliography state it happened in 1567.
> > So
> > you may be thinking, 'what's two or three years?' Well, what if I told
> > you
> > the battle of Gettysburg took place in 1866? Oops!
> > >
> > This is from page 27 of Japonius Tyrannus the bio of Nobunaga by Jeroen
> > Lamers:
> >
> > "It has been unclear for a very long time in precisely which year
exactly
> > Nobunaga took this mountain castle [Inabayama]. Matsuda Ryo, a local
> > historian of Gifu Prefecture has convincingly argued that Nobunaga first
> > captured Mount Inaba in 1564, lost it again to Tatsuoki in 1565, and
> > finally
> > took possession of the castle in June 1567."
> >
> > He cites the book 'Nobunaga no Mino koryaku-shi kenkyu' by Matsuda Ryo
for
> > this info.
> > >
> > >
> > > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > > ---
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Well, first, let's take a look at what turnbull says:

"The Samurai, A Military History" (Turnbull, 1977, P. 145):
"The task of subduing the last of the Saito was entrusted to Toyotomi
Hideyoshi, who reduced their castle of Inaba-yama (now called Gifu)
with little difficulty in 1564."

That is all he writes. He doesn't specifically say that 1564 was the
end of it, so he leaves it sort of open, which I think is perfectly
acceptable.

"The Samurai Sourcebook" (Turnbull, 1998, P. 216-217):

"THE SIEGE OF INABAYAMA, 1564- In 1564, Toyotomi Hideyoshi captured
Inabayama castle from the Saito for Oda Nobunaga. As Inabayama was
built on top of a mountain, two attacks were launched, one that
involved climbing, the other across the river. Horio Yoshiharu
distinguished himself by opening the watergate to his atacking
comrades. In 1565 Oda Nobunaga made Inabayama his headquarters and
renamed it Gifu."

Turnbull plainly states it was renamed Gifu in 1565. In 20 minutes of
research in my collection of Japanese language history books, I found
six books that contradict this. The rest either didn't mention the
siege at all, or didn't put any dates to it.

1. Nihon meijo Souran (1999, P. 441):
"1567 - Oda nobunaga attacks saito tatsuoki's Inabayama castle in
Mino. [It] falls, and is renamed Gifu."

2. Sengokushi Shimbun (1996, P. 109):
states that in 9/1567 nobunaga takes Inabayama, renames it 'Gifu', and
changes his seal to 'Tenka Fubu'.

3. Sengoku no Kassen (1998, P. 78):
On the top of the page it states "Eiroku 10 [1567]", and the title of
the section is: "Nobunaga takes Mino - The seige of Inabayama".

4. Nihon no Eiyu 100nin (1998, P. 73):
states that in Eiroku 10 [1567], Nobunaga defeats tatsuoki, and makes
Inabayama his main base, and renames it Gifu, and changes his seal to
Tenka Fubu.

5. Rekishi Gunzo #1 (1987, P. 99) [Turnbull cites this book]:
In the timeline, for Eiroku 10, 8th month, it states that saito
tatsuoki is defeated, and Inabayama falls. Inabayama is changed to
'Gifu'. Again, Turnbull cites this. I would assume if he had
contradictory information he would normally have stated something like
"scholars disagree as to whether the fall of Inabayama took place in
1565 or 1567." He doesn't mention it. Maybe in his next book.

6. Sengoku Jinbutsu 700 (2001, P. 106):
Eiroku 10 [1567] Nobunaga renames castle Gifu, and changes his seal to
'Tenka Fubu'.

Based on the above, I'd have to go with Lamers -it appears that it is
common knowledge that the final fall of Inabayama was 1567. Granted,
most of the above are secondary sources, and could be considered
'popular history', I would tend to believe them over turnbull due to
the fact that not only do 6 sources state that the 'final' fall of
Inabayama was 1567 and at that point was renamed Gifu, but also that
the Japanese authors probably have access to much more accurate
information. Another thing I notice is that Hideyoshi was not
mentioned in a single source as having participated. Not to say that
he didn't, just that no sources mention him at all. Sure, there could
have been plenty of attacks on Inabayama in 1564/5, but if it didn't
fall until 1567, that makes the 1564/65 battles almost
inconsequential.

For the above reason, I just find it odd that after 20 years of
'research', Turnbull still states that Inabayama fell in 1564/5. It
would be nice to know where Turnbull got his info, but his being
'popular history', it doesn't precisely cite. Sure, he could be
correct, and the Japanese sources not, but.....

There are other various things Turnbull puts in that don't match up,
some of which came from Papinot, which he conveniently doesn't cite,
but obviously took greatly from. Could be fun picking it apart,
although I don't see what purpose it would serve. Maybe to make him a
better historian? Or at least to more clearly cite his sources to
prove us wrong?

All in good fun, of course.

William Letham wrote:

> Between you and me what do you think about this information. Lamars didn't
> go in any detail on what was 'convincingly' argued. There is nothing in the
> Sengoku Chronicle, which while not an academic work, gives a very detailed
> chronology of the period.

This was a biography of Nobunaga, not a study of the fall of Inaba. The
convincing argument referred to takes place elsewhere, and would be in Japanese
historical journals, no doubt.

Tony

Tony Wrote:

> This was a biography of Nobunaga, not a study of the fall of Inaba. The
> convincing argument referred to takes place elsewhere, and would be

in Japanese

> historical journals, no doubt.
>
> Tony

That is a very good point, the author really doesn't have reason to go
into detail since it is about Nobunaga and not inabayama. Although I
have to concur that it sounds very reasonable that it fell in 1567,
based on what I wrote in my previous post. And my jab about peer
review was aimed at Turnbull anyway ;)

Tony Wrote:

> This was a biography of Nobunaga, not a study of the fall of Inaba. The
> convincing argument referred to takes place elsewhere, and would be

in Japanese

> historical journals, no doubt.
>
> Tony

That is a very good point, the author really doesn't have reason to go
into detail since it is about Nobunaga and not inabayama. Although I
have to concur that it sounds very reasonable that it fell in 1567,
based on what I wrote in my previous post. And my jab about peer
review was aimed at Turnbull anyway ;)

Well he didn't HAVE to go into any details but it would have been nice if he
had, as the book he cited was in Japanese. He goes on to argue that
Nobunagas success in capturing Inabayama in 1564 (if however briefly) led
certain circles in Kyoto to discretely approach Nobunaga to march on Kyoto.

----- Original Message -----
From: kitsuno <kitsuno@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books


> Tony Wrote:
>
>
> > This was a biography of Nobunaga, not a study of the fall of Inaba. The
> > convincing argument referred to takes place elsewhere, and would be
> in Japanese
> > historical journals, no doubt.
> >
> > Tony
>
> That is a very good point, the author really doesn't have reason to go
> into detail since it is about Nobunaga and not inabayama. Although I
> have to concur that it sounds very reasonable that it fell in 1567,
> based on what I wrote in my previous post. And my jab about peer
> review was aimed at Turnbull anyway ;)
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

I believe that:- "Japan, An Illustrated Encyclopaedia", Kodansha 1993
states that Nobunaga took Inabayama in September, 1567. Prior to that the
area was governed by Saito Yoshiatsu.

Mt Kinka was initially taken by Nagai Sinzaemon in 1525; his retainer,
Saito Dosan pushed him out in in 1542 & ruled there until he was defeated &
killed by his son Yoshiatsu in a battle on the banks of the Nagaragawa, (now
famous for cormorant fishing in summer).

This is also the story told by those who love, and are currently restoring,
Gifu Castle.
Steve Lofts.

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Letham" <samuraiw@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 3:23 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books


> Between you and me what do you think about this information. Lamars didn't
> go in any detail on what was 'convincingly' argued. There is nothing in
the
> Sengoku Chronicle, which while not an academic work, gives a very detailed
> chronology of the period.
>
> As for Turnbull I did get his new one 'Samurai Invasion'.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <westce@...>
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 1:59 AM
> Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books
>
>
> > what ever happened to 'peer review'...? He would definately benefit...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: William Letham [SMTP:samuraiw@...]
> > > Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 8:16 AM
> > > To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: A.J. Bryant's books
> > >
> > >
> > > Thought you might be interested,
> > > >
> > > > *ahem* for example, Turnbull repeatedly states that the seige of
> > > Inabayama
> > > took place in 1564/65. whereas all the sources I have in Japanese,
> > > including a few he lists in his bibliography state it happened in
1567.
> > > So
> > > you may be thinking, 'what's two or three years?' Well, what if I
told
> > > you
> > > the battle of Gettysburg took place in 1866? Oops!
> > > >
> > > This is from page 27 of Japonius Tyrannus the bio of Nobunaga by
Jeroen
> > > Lamers:
> > >
> > > "It has been unclear for a very long time in precisely which year
> exactly
> > > Nobunaga took this mountain castle [Inabayama]. Matsuda Ryo, a local
> > > historian of Gifu Prefecture has convincingly argued that Nobunaga
first
> > > captured Mount Inaba in 1564, lost it again to Tatsuoki in 1565, and
> > > finally
> > > took possession of the castle in June 1567."
> > >
> > > He cites the book 'Nobunaga no Mino koryaku-shi kenkyu' by Matsuda Ryo
> for
> > > this info.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > > > ---
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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Hello,

I have a question. I am reading James Clavell's book shogun for the
second time. What I am wondering is why he has mixed up the names of
the Minomoto and Fujiwara clans. In the book the names are printed as
Fujimoto and Minowara. There are also other name innacurracies. Does
anyone know if this was done because the book is a work of fiction?

Jeff M.

Shogun is pure fiction only loosely based on actual events -- All
the names are variations of real people, no names are exact, and some
don't match at all. Toranaga=Tokugawa Ishido=Ishida Blackthorne=Adams
etc. I don't have the book, and read it about 8 years ago, so I can't
remember much more than that, but although the 'big picture' roughly
follows historical events, the motiviations, actions, and portrayal of
Japanese culture in that period are off quite a bit.
Great book though. More or less thanks to that book alone I've lived
in Japan, learned Japanese, traveled up and down the country, and
started this list ;)

--- In samuraihistory@y..., "shogun2k2002" wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have a question. I am reading James Clavell's book shogun for the
> second time. What I am wondering is why he has mixed up the names of
> the Minomoto and Fujiwara clans. In the book the names are printed
as
> Fujimoto and Minowara. There are also other name innacurracies. Does
> anyone know if this was done because the book is a work of fiction?
>
> Jeff M.

As an add on to Kisuno's post I have to point out that Toranaga represents
Tokugawa Ieyasu not 'Ishido'...The first of the Tokugawa shoguns in
1603...Will Addams was an english pilot who was caught in the countries
turmoil in the late 16th century. Tokugawa used him in much the same way as
described by Clavell....Indeed, he also chose to stay in Japan and attained
Samurai rank there...The place he inhabited is still named Anjin-cho in his
honour (Old Edo...Tokyo now.).
The names were changed to prevent any kinds of problems with 'history' and
what Clavell wanted to write about..Things happen in the book that did NOT
happen in reality and the use of the names prevents any protest from finding
a reason to condemn the book....DO NOT read it as any kind of Japanese
history...It isn't at all...Just good fiction.
Abayo.
Ben Sharples

"As an add on to Kisuno's post I have to point out that Toranaga represents
Tokugawa Ieyasu not 'Ishido'...The first of the Tokugawa shoguns in 1603..."

.... I think you got your 'equals signs' wrong -- "Toranaga=Tokugawa
Ishido=Ishida" means 'toranaga equals tokugawa, ishido equals Ishida"

Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly - don't read Shogun as history. It is
(very good) fiction.
c.

fifthchamber@... wrote:

> Will Addams was an english pilot who was caught in the countries
> turmoil in the late 16th century. Tokugawa used him in much the same way as
> described by Clavell....Indeed, he also chose to stay in Japan and attained
> Samurai rank there..

Well, there wasn't much choice in it. William (he *never* used or went by
"Will") Adams was forbidden to leave.


Tony

Hi, just signed up

I'm into Japanese History and have been reading a book called 'Shogun'
by James Clavel.

It made me wonder how exactly a daiymo became a shogun, what power he
had and how he was in relation to the Emperor.

Thanks, Please give me some information. A few links maybe and could
anyone recommend any other Ancient Japanese books?

Riskxd,
Shogun is NOT an ancient Japanese book.
However, if you like the style, you will probably like Musashi,
Taiko, Heike Monogatari and the 47 Ronin Story.
The first three are translations of Eiji Yoshikawa's Japanese versions.
These are all historical novels, thou, NOT history books.

Cepo

On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:43 AM, riskxd wrote:

> Hi, just signed up
>
> I'm into Japanese History and have been reading a book called 'Shogun'
> by James Clavel.
>
> It made me wonder how exactly a daiymo became a shogun, what power he
> had and how he was in relation to the Emperor.
>
> Thanks, Please give me some information. A few links maybe and could
> anyone recommend any other Ancient Japanese books?
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello:

I liked "Shogun" too, so I saw the series (avalaible in DVD) with Richard Chamberlain as Anjin. Toshiro Mifune as Tokugawa (Toronaga? Somebody could explain me this changes in the names). I found that the TV version is pretty faithfull to the Clavell's story. By the same, both of them has the same merits and problems.
I also recommend Yoshikawa's works, but be prepaired. I do not if it is the original or the transaltion, but the narrative style is pretty hard and rude. Not like Clavell's (I am not saying that Clavell was superb in that terms). On the other hand, is a real japanese who writes, so there is a pretty much trustfull characterization of the japanese ways.
There are two ways to be be shogun. One is to be appointed by the emperor on such position, understanding that no other Shogun is in office. Of course, a warlord supported by large posessions and being far over any other lord in terms of power, could get such appointment without problem, if he wanted it. But also, tradition tells that only the members of two ancient families, the Fujiwara and Minamoto, could become Shogun.Tokugawa claimed blood links to this families, although evidence is questionable.
The second is to be heir of a previous Shogun.
The Shogun is intended to be the military governor of Japan. So, in the practice, his power is absolute. The Emperor was only a symbolic figure, just like today more or less.
So far, here there are lots of people that knows a lot more about this than me, so forgive me if I made a mistake.

riskxd <riskxd@...> wrote: Hi, just signed up

I'm into Japanese History and have been reading a book called 'Shogun'
by James Clavel.

It made me wonder how exactly a daiymo became a shogun, what power he
had and how he was in relation to the Emperor.

Thanks, Please give me some information. A few links maybe and could
anyone recommend any other Ancient Japanese books?






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]