laws of samurai

hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of a samurai could
anyone help

Hi Jeff,

Try this web site for the Buke Shohatto and other bits and pieces:

http://www.uni-erfurt.de/ostasiatische_geschichte/texte/japan/dokumente/
17/tokugawa_legislation/index.htm

Yours

Dean


In message <cjl48l+47hk@...>, jeff <gravedigger69_ca@...>
writes

> hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of a samurai could
> anyone help
>
>
>
>
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>
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Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hi Jeff,
there were many different laws in many different places, it would depend on the time period as well as the diamyo. Although not laws if I had to choose two things that were expected of a samurai in all places and times it would be, obedience and loyalty these things were core to what a samurai should be, the word samurai even means "to serve".
Dave

P.S. Even though a ronin had no lord to serve and be loyal and obiedient to this did not make him any less of a samurai.

----- Original Message -----
From: jeff
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:37 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai


hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of a samurai could
anyone help




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, aren't you just so smart, Dave. ^_^ There weren't very specific laws on Samurai, but there was only on consistency in their codes and rules. The Code of Bushido, which was a set of ten ideals for samurai set down for all with a sword to follow. I think they were given to someone by one of the Kami or gods/goddesses, but I can't quite remember the specifics. Go ahead and e-mail me if you need any more specifics on the subject. I spent a past life during some of feudal japan, and was alive during Sekigahara.

American Oni ^_^

Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:
Hi Jeff,
there were many different laws in many different places, it would depend on the time period as well as the diamyo. Although not laws if I had to choose two things that were expected of a samurai in all places and times it would be, obedience and loyalty these things were core to what a samurai should be, the word samurai even means "to serve".
Dave

P.S. Even though a ronin had no lord to serve and be loyal and obiedient to this did not make him any less of a samurai.

----- Original Message -----
From: jeff
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:37 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai


hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of a samurai could
anyone help




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

thanks for your help --- Dave Jackson
<nihontonut@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Hi Jeff,
there were many different laws in many different
places, it would depend on the time period as well as
the diamyo. Although not laws if I had to choose two
things that were expected of a samurai in all places
and times it would be, obedience and loyalty these
things were core to what a samurai should be, the word
samurai even means "to serve".
Dave

P.S. Even though a ronin had no lord to serve and be
loyal and obiedient to this did not make him any less
of a samurai.

----- Original Message -----
From: jeff
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:37 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai


hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of
a samurai could
anyone help




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Hey there is a book that i have that has all the laws of the samurai it is called "Hagakure The Way of the Samurai" its petty cool go and check it out

Chase



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Ruby Harper <madmadotakuchick@...> wrote:

>
> Well, aren't you just so smart, Dave. ^_^ There
> weren't very specific laws on Samurai, but there was
> only on consistency in their codes and rules. The
> Code of Bushido, which was a set of ten ideals for
> samurai set down for all with a sword to follow. I
> think they were given to someone by one of the Kami
> or gods/goddesses, but I can't quite remember the
> specifics. Go ahead and e-mail me if you need any
> more specifics on the subject. I spent a past life
> during some of feudal japan, and was alive during
> Sekigahara.

Put the peyote down, and check yourself into rehab,
please.



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So.. you were alive at Sekigahara eh? You must have been very young and
lived a long time, as the code of Bushido was first written down a
little over 100 years after the battle. Then again, what do I know, I
wasn't even there:-)

Yours bemused and amused

Dean


In message <20041002192500.79516.qmail@...>, Ruby
Harper <madmadotakuchick@...> writes

>
> Well, aren't you just so smart, Dave. ^_^ There weren't very
> specific laws on Samurai, but there was only on consistency in
> their codes and rules. The Code of Bushido, which was a set of ten
> ideals for samurai set down for all with a sword to follow. I think
> they were given to someone by one of the Kami or gods/goddesses,
> but I can't quite remember the specifics. Go ahead and e-mail me if
> you need any more specifics on the subject. I spent a past life
> during some of feudal japan, and was alive during Sekigahara.
>
> American Oni ^_^
>
> Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> there were many different laws in many different places, it would
> depend on the time period as well as the diamyo. Although not laws
> if I had to choose two things that were expected of a samurai in
> all places and times it would be, obedience and loyalty these
> things were core to what a samurai should be, the word samurai even
> means "to serve".
> Dave
>
> P.S. Even though a ronin had no lord to serve and be loyal and
> obiedient to this did not make him any less of a samurai.
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jeff
>   To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:37 PM
>   Subject: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai
>
>
>   hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of a samurai
> could
>   anyone help
>
>
>
>
>   ---
>   Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>   Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>   ---
>
>
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Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Hi Chase,

Hagakure isn't a book of law, it's a guide to behaviour written at the
end of the samurai era, and was relatively obscure at the time. It only
became popular in the 20th century, likewise all the other "Bushido" and
"ninja" nonsense. Don't fall in to the trap of these modern "myths".

Yours

Dean


In message <20041003011521.89415.qmail@...>, p
<czp7@...> writes

>
>
>
>
> Hey there is a book that i have that has all the laws of the
> samurai it is called "Hagakure The Way of the Samurai"  its petty
> cool go and check it out
>
> Chase
>
>
> ����� �����
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
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Dean Wayland
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Past life! Are you serious ? If so, please tell me more.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruby Harper" <madmadotakuchick@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai


>
>
> Well, aren't you just so smart, Dave. ^_^ There weren't very specific laws
> on Samurai, but there was only on consistency in their codes and rules.
> The Code of Bushido, which was a set of ten ideals for samurai set down
> for all with a sword to follow. I think they were given to someone by one
> of the Kami or gods/goddesses, but I can't quite remember the specifics.
> Go ahead and e-mail me if you need any more specifics on the subject. I
> spent a past life during some of feudal japan, and was alive during
> Sekigahara.
>
> American Oni ^_^
>
> Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
> there were many different laws in many different places, it would depend
> on the time period as well as the diamyo. Although not laws if I had to
> choose two things that were expected of a samurai in all places and times
> it would be, obedience and loyalty these things were core to what a
> samurai should be, the word samurai even means "to serve".
> Dave
>
> P.S. Even though a ronin had no lord to serve and be loyal and obiedient
> to this did not make him any less of a samurai.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jeff
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:37 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai
>
>
> hello im doing a project i need to know two laws of a samurai could
> anyone help
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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--- Denis Pointing <dponting@...> wrote:

> Past life! Are you serious ? If so, please tell me
> more.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ruby Harper" <madmadotakuchick@...>
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 8:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] laws of samurai

No, please don't. PLEASE, PLEASE don't.



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"The nonsensical writings of a failed samurai from a
failed clan", wishing things were they way they were
in the 'good ol days', yet not really understanding
that anybody who acted the way he professed in the
'good ol days' would have lasted about 30 seconds
before someone knifed them in the back.

Nate

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Hi Chase,
>
> Hagakure isn't a book of law, it's a guide to
> behaviour written at the
> end of the samurai era, and was relatively obscure
> at the time. It only
> became popular in the 20th century, likewise all the
> other "Bushido" and
> "ninja" nonsense. Don't fall in to the trap of these
> modern "myths".
>
> Yours
>
> Dean
>
>
> In message
>

<20041003011521.89415.qmail@...>,

> p
> <czp7@...> writes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey there is a book that i have that has all
> the laws of the
> > samurai it is called "Hagakure The Way of the
> Samurai" its petty
> > cool go and check it out
> >
> > Chase
> >
> >
> > 



> > ---------------------------------
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> > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
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> removed]
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> Dean Wayland
> Head Of The Fight School
> http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk
>
>

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Hi Nate -

It's called 'living in the past' and happens to us all!

Actually I agree with you.

I've got an old video from a BBC TV series called 'Way of the Warrior' on the Katori
Shinto Ryu, and there's a snippet of Otake-sensei talking to his students, explaining
that the way of the warrior was NOT about rushing out and killing and being killed
without a moment's thought or hesitation.

I think there's a psychological phenomena that endangers peacetime military (this is a
civilian talking here) when units with high reputations go to stupid lengths to prove
how 'hard' they are, the chance to do so in battle denied them.

To me the Sengoku samurai was a pragmatic sort of chap. His Edo counterpart was
far more reactionary - although vanity, pride and sharp implements is inevitably an
incendiary mix in whatever era!

Thomas

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This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm

Speaking of bushido, the samurai didn't have a code per se in the late
sixteenth century during the last great wars for the shogunate, did
they? It just came to my mind because in "The Last Samurai" (the DVD
menu of the second disc) it says that "for 1100 years the samurai have
lived by seven principles..." or whatever, and I seem to remember that
the "code" was established after the samurai stopped serving a true
military purpose with the peace of the Tokugawa era.

Miburo Saitou

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- Ruby Harper wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, aren't you just so smart, Dave. ^_^ There
> > weren't very specific laws on Samurai, but there was
> > only on consistency in their codes and rules. The
> > Code of Bushido, which was a set of ten ideals for
> > samurai set down for all with a sword to follow. I
> > think they were given to someone by one of the Kami
> > or gods/goddesses, but I can't quite remember the
> > specifics. Go ahead and e-mail me if you need any
> > more specifics on the subject. I spent a past life
> > during some of feudal japan, and was alive during
> > Sekigahara.
>
> Put the peyote down, and check yourself into rehab,
> please.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

> Speaking of bushido, the samurai didn't have a code per se in the

late

> sixteenth century during the last great wars for the shogunate, did
> they? It just came to my mind because in "The Last Samurai" (the DVD
> menu of the second disc) it says that "for 1100 years the samurai

have

> lived by seven principles..." or whatever, and I seem to remember

that

> the "code" was established after the samurai stopped serving a true
> military purpose with the peace of the Tokugawa era.
>
> Miburo Saitou

I agree with Miburo. Bushido, literally translated "Way of the
Warrior," developed in Japan between the Heian and Tokugawa Ages (9th-
12th century). It was a code and way of life for Samurai, a class of
warriors similar to the medieval knights of Europe. It puts emphasis
on loyalty, self-sacrifice, justice, sense of shame, refined manners,
purity, modesty, frugality, martial spirit, honour and affection.
However before there was bushido I am not sure what laws were part of
the samurai culture, will check resource marital.

From its opening screen, with a re-writing of the mythology of the founding of Japan, I
knew we were in for a Hollywood version of the samurai.

I'd advise anyone to junk anything they pick up about the samurai from that film, find
a better source, and start again.

Here is a better place than most.

Thomas

--

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http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/

This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm

That reminds me: What did the samurai eat(excepting rice!!)???What did they drink(excepting sake!!)???

Edy




zevlord <LordZev@...> wrote:

> Speaking of bushido, the samurai didn't have a code per se in the

late

> sixteenth century during the last great wars for the shogunate, did
> they? It just came to my mind because in "The Last Samurai" (the DVD
> menu of the second disc) it says that "for 1100 years the samurai

have

> lived by seven principles..." or whatever, and I seem to remember

that

> the "code" was established after the samurai stopped serving a true
> military purpose with the peace of the Tokugawa era.
>
> Miburo Saitou

I agree with Miburo. Bushido, literally translated "Way of the
Warrior," developed in Japan between the Heian and Tokugawa Ages (9th-
12th century). It was a code and way of life for Samurai, a class of
warriors similar to the medieval knights of Europe. It puts emphasis
on loyalty, self-sacrifice, justice, sense of shame, refined manners,
purity, modesty, frugality, martial spirit, honour and affection.
However before there was bushido I am not sure what laws were part of
the samurai culture, will check resource marital.





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Hi,

The notions of bushido, pre 17th century were very vague indeed, it
wasn't until 100 years after the battle of Sekigahara (1600), that the
first known attempt to codify and commit the ideas to paper was
undertaken. At that same time 1701 when the 47 ronin did their thing, it
caused a real headache for the government as, bushido, was just an
ideal, not something that you should really do!

Okay, my own view is that the various ideas contained in bushido, along
with the obsessive reverence for the sword, over and above all other
weapons, especially the gun, was nothing more than a socio-political
device created by the Tokugawa intended to ensure peace. Which it
actually did, for nigh on 250 years, which isn't bad, bearing in mind
just how long they had all been kicking the "do do" out of one
another:-)

Bushido crippled the samurai class, turning them from battle winning,
team playing "soldiers", unafraid to embrace new ideas and new
technologies to help them win, to nothing more than an ineffective and
quarrelsome bunch of individual "warrior-administrators", unable to
threaten the Tokugawa hegemony.

I mean, look at the attitude to firearms, it is often said that the
Europeans wrecked the Japanese way of war by introducing them to the
gun, which the samurai of the Edo era then consequently rejected. Well
apart from the fact that we didn't introduce them to the gun at all,
they had it long before we got there, all we did was show them how to
make an iron screw thread (another story), there is the story from the
Korean campaign which if I recall correctly there's a letter from a
warrior stating something like "don't bother bringing swords, just bring
guns", which is a heck of a different attitude to the later samurai.
Again, the promotion of a distaine for firearms makes alot of sense if
you are the Tokugawa, hanging on to power by your fingernails.

The whole sword thing, was blown out of all proportion, again I think to
aid the cause of peace, Tokugawa peace that is. To explain by way of an
analogy: if we translate the samurai in to the equivalent of today's
modern soldier, and then encouraged them to think of all weapons with
the exception of the pistol, as just work-a-day tools, and that "real
men" fight with hand guns, upon which they lavish great time effort and
expense, in mastering the art of the solo pistol shoot out, how
effective would they be when it came to waging a serious war as part of
a large army? Answer, see the Shinabara revolt 1638 and the cancellation
of the invasion of the Philipines, followed by the absolute sealing of
the country!

I know that the above is a bit of a sweeping generalisation, but as such
I feel it to be a working hypothesis.

Okay, ducking for cover:-)

Yours

Dean

In message <cjsvnq+oetc@...>, Saitoh Hajime
<the_sam_99@...> writes

>
> Speaking of bushido, the samurai didn't have a code per se in the
> late
> sixteenth century during the last great wars for the shogunate, did
> they? It just came to my mind because in "The Last Samurai" (the
> DVD
> menu of the second disc) it says that "for 1100 years the samurai
> have
> lived by seven principles..." or whatever, and I seem to remember
> that
> the "code" was established after the samurai stopped serving a true
> military purpose with the peace of the Tokugawa era.
>
> Miburo Saitou
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- Ruby Harper wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Well, aren't you just so smart, Dave. ^_^ There
> > > weren't very specific laws on Samurai, but there was
> > > only on consistency in their codes and rules. The
> > > Code of Bushido, which was a set of ten ideals for
> > > samurai set down for all with a sword to follow. I
> > > think they were given to someone by one of the Kami
> > > or gods/goddesses, but I can't quite remember the
> > > specifics. Go ahead and e-mail me if you need any
> > > more specifics on the subject. I spent a past life
> > > during some of feudal japan, and was alive during
> > > Sekigahara.
> >
> > Put the peyote down, and check yourself into rehab,
> > please.
> >
> >
> > ����� �����
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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> ---
>
>
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Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Edward Alexander wrote:

>
> That reminds me: What did the samurai eat(excepting rice!!)???

Lots of different types of pickles!!! Lots of vegetables!!!! Lots of fish!!!
Sometimes boar!!!!

> What did they
> drink(excepting sake!!)???

Water!!!! And tea!!!!!


Tony!!!!!

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

zevlord wrote:

> I agree with Miburo. Bushido, literally translated "Way of the
> Warrior," developed in Japan between the Heian and Tokugawa Ages (9th-
> 12th century).

Actually "bushido" developed DURING the Tokugawa period (from 1600 to 1868).

> It was a code and way of life for Samurai, a class of
> warriors similar to the medieval knights of Europe. It puts emphasis
> on loyalty, self-sacrifice, justice, sense of shame, refined manners,
> purity, modesty, frugality, martial spirit, honour and affection.
> However before there was bushido I am not sure what laws were part of
> the samurai culture, will check resource marital.

Check out "Taming of the Samurai by Keiko Ikegami. It's a goldmine of info on
the development of bushido and the "wussing" of the samurai.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Tony!!!!

STOP IT!!!!!

UR MAKING MY I'S HURT!!!!!


--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Edward Alexander wrote:
> >
> > That reminds me: What did the samurai
> eat(excepting rice!!)???
>
> Lots of different types of pickles!!! Lots of
> vegetables!!!! Lots of fish!!!
> Sometimes boar!!!!
>
> > What did they
> > drink(excepting sake!!)???
>
> Water!!!! And tea!!!!!
>
>
> Tony!!!!!
>
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
> http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
>
>
>

_______________________________
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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Tony!!!!
>
> STOP IT!!!!!
>
> UR MAKING MY I'S HURT!!!!!

SORRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tony!!
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

I don't think you really are...

so anyways, back to the question, I know you've got
some resource up your sleeve for actual meals, etc, of
the period. Anything?

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > Tony!!!!
> >
> > STOP IT!!!!!
> >
> > UR MAKING MY I'S HURT!!!!!
>
> SORRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> Tony!!
> --
>
> Anthony J. Bryant
> Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com
>
> Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
> http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html
>
> Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
> http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
>
>
>

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:-) :-) :-) :-D :-D ^_^ Thank you!!!!What type of pickles????!!!!What type of vegetables???!!!!

Edy!!!

"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
Edward Alexander wrote:

>
> That reminds me: What did the samurai eat(excepting rice!!)???

Lots of different types of pickles!!! Lots of vegetables!!!! Lots of fish!!!
Sometimes boar!!!!

> What did they
> drink(excepting sake!!)???

Water!!!! And tea!!!!!


Tony!!!!!

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder




---
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---


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
> From: Dean Wayland <dean@...>
>
>Okay, my own view is that the various ideas contained in bushido, along
>with the obsessive reverence for the sword, over and above all other
>weapons, especially the gun, was nothing more than a socio-political
>device created by the Tokugawa intended to ensure peace.
>

And not to rebel against your master!

>Well apart from the fact that we didn't introduce them to the gun at all,
>they had it long before we got there, all we did was show them how to
>make an iron screw thread (another story),
>

While Turnbull and company aren't the most academic of sources, this
isn't the the way it's usually told. I'd like to hear more.

>The whole sword thing, was blown out of all proportion, again I think to
>aid the cause of peace, Tokugawa peace that is.
>
>

Considering how effectively the Sengoku armies became with the gun, I
have no doubt that this was beneficial to the powers that were. The West
would have had real problems until the 1620s with Japan. They missed the
light and fast artillery boat.

Jim Eckman

Hi there Jim,

Okay re the story of guns in Japan; firstly I need to put up a blanket
"IIRC" or "if I recall correctly", as otherwise there would have to be a
lot of that, since I'm dusting off parts of my memory which are seldom
trod.

Some years ago I attended a seminar at the Royal Armouries in Leeds on
the topic of the latest research in to Japanese siege warfare. Present
were Thom Richardson (the then keeper of the oriental collection) who
was running the show and Stephen Turnbull, who would have been
accompanied by Ian Bottomley his co-conspirator, but Ian was down with a
vicious cold, so Stephen had to read Ian's notes to the assembled
masses.

Basically, they stated that new evidence for the existence of firearms
pre 1543, had been recently (at that time) unearthed in Japan, which
included an account of Oda Nobunaga attending some function or other
with a small company (50) of gunners in his entourage.

It seems that the discovery of the gun in the far east occurred at a
similar time as it did in the west. The earliest record of firearms here
is 1274 in Italy (blanket IIRC reminder). The difference between the two
lay in the technology of later gun making.

In the east, no satisfactory method for sealing the breach of an iron
barrel was ever found, which meant they were restricted to cast bronze
for their guns. This means in turn that if you want a hand portable
weapon it couldn't be that powerful, for if it were, it would cease to
be "portable". So there early hand guns, were heavy bronze affairs with
relatively low power, hence the need for slower burning gun powder, as
per the Chinese type. It seems that gunners were in service, but in very
small numbers, with each man carrying only three or four rounds of ammo.
I guess it was deployed much like early guns were here, for intimidation
as much for effect.

What got the Japanese so excited by European guns, wasn't the concept of
the gun itself, they had these, it was that ours were "light" and
comparatively powerful. The reason for this being that we could make a
barrel out of iron, which for a given weight, can take much higher
chamber pressures. So you could use a more potent gun powder mix, which
in turn meant that a hand gun would make a far more useful military
weapon.

Now the first European iron guns were not plug sealed, being fitted with
a removable breach held in place by wedges. I've been around when one of
things has been used, and believe me reliable it is not! If you get it
wrong, bang, followed by flying wedges and a zippy breach! At the very
least they seal like a sieve doesn't, gas vents all over the place, thus
the muzzle loader won out over the early breach loader.

The European genius was the ability to permanently seal an iron tube,
which we did with the creation of the iron "screw" in the 15th century.
Now the screw has been known for thousands of years, but all previous
examples were carved from other softer materials like wood. The early
iron and later steel screw had to be pains takingly built up around a
core with a "V" sectioned piece of wire or bar. I know a guy who has
done it, and it isn't easy at all. But once you know how.... BOOM!

Consequently, its the art of making the screw-in breach plug, that
enables Japanese gun technology to go crazy, ramping up gun production
vastly within six months of its arrival, and the rest as they say is
history.

Anyway, subject to the vagueries of memory, I hope this was of interest,
or at the very least entertaining.

Yours

Dean

***

In message <4165F192.60206@...>, James Eckman
<ronin_engineer@...> writes

>
> >
> >
> >   From: Dean Wayland <dean@...>
> >
> >Okay, my own view is that the various ideas contained in bushido,
> along
> >with the obsessive reverence for the sword, over and above all
> other
> >weapons, especially the gun, was nothing more than a
> socio-political
> >device created by the Tokugawa intended to ensure peace.
> >
> And not to rebel against your master!
>
> >Well apart from the fact that we didn't introduce them to the gun
> at all,
> >they had it long before we got there, all we did was show them how
> to
> >make an iron screw thread (another story),
> >
> While Turnbull and company aren't the most academic of sources,
> this
> isn't the the way it's usually told. I'd like to hear more.
>
> >The whole sword thing, was blown out of all proportion, again I
> think to
> >aid the cause of peace, Tokugawa peace that is.
> > 
> >
> Considering how effectively the Sengoku armies became with the gun,
> I
> have no doubt that this was beneficial to the powers that were. The
> West
> would have had real problems until the 1620s with Japan. They
> missed the
> light and fast artillery boat.
>
> Jim Eckman

***
(Dean Wayland)

http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk