did the samurai have military rankings?

for my own personal research, i need to know if the samurai had military ranks:such as saergent, or captains, majors, etc. if so what would be the american military eqivalent of it? and what specified their rank?
respectfully yours,
Captain Nemo


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Gloria Proctor <captainnemo12901@...> wrote:

> for my own personal research, i need to know if the
> samurai had military ranks:such as saergent, or
> captains, majors, etc. if so what would be the
> american military eqivalent of it? and what
> specified their rank?
> respectfully yours,
> Captain Nemo

Simply put, no. There were no "ranks", as such. Often
times you'll see the same subordinates referred to as
different "ranks". For instance, in one passage
Hideyoshi, Katsuie, and Nagahide may be referred to as
three of Nobunaga's "Generals"...later on you may see
them described as his "lieutenants" or "captains".
These aren't meant to delineate rank, but more to show
a relationship--Nobunaga is the boss, and those three
are his subordinate leaders.

The problem is that many times you see things
translated into English that appear to be ranks, when
they are actually job titles. "Taisho", often
translated as general, isn't a rank--it's a job title.
It refers to someone who leads a large body of troops.
That could be 10,000 troops, or 300. Obviously if you
lead 10,000 you are probably more important, and of
higher "rank" than the guy with only 300, but you're
still both "Taisho".

Similiarly, you'll see things like "Ashigaru-gashira",
etc., but again, these are job titles, not ranks. A
"Kashira" is the head of a particular unit, so the
ashigaru-kashira would be the leader of a small unit
of ashigaru, kind of like a platoon leader in the
modern army.

Bottom line, there were no sergeants, lieutenants,
captains, majors, etc. But there were squad leaders,
platoon leaders, company commanders, battalion
commanders, etc. Of course, there was no standard
"battalion" size like in a modern army, so if Lord A
was a minor lord who only had 200 ment to lead into
battle, you might call that a battalion...but you
might also call Lord B's 3,000 men a battalion...

Difficult, no?



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo

Oyakata holds session:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:51:18 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:

>Simply put, no. There were no "ranks", as such.

Nate I agree with you in the main here. I would have probably chosen
a different set of words - that is, there was no "rank an promotion"
system where a person with x amount of experience or know-how would
get promoted to the next 'level'.

At the same time I think it's fair to say that there were certainly jo
bs, or posts, or stations that were more important or prestigious, and
jobs that were less important and prestigious. In that sense it can be
said that there were 'ranks'.

On top of that there were of course the ranks in terms of the
Shoku-i 職位 system.

>The problem is that many times you see things
>translated into English that appear to be ranks, when
>they are actually job titles. "Taisho", often
>translated as general, isn't a rank--it's a job title.

This is very well said! In fact (as you and I have exchanged on this
list before), even the title Shogun is not in essence a "rank". It
is really a job description. IN fact the title "Shogun" is not even
part of the Shoku-i ranking system.

>It refers to someone who leads a large body of troops.
>That could be 10,000 troops, or 300. Obviously if you
>lead 10,000 you are probably more important, and of
>higher "rank" than the guy with only 300, but you're
>still both "Taisho".

Ah - here's what I was getting at. But beyond this, of course an
ashigaru is lower than a taisho. So at some level wouldn't you be
able to call this a 'rank'?

Then of course to confuse matters more we have that Ashigaru
Taisho.....

>Similiarly, you'll see things like "Ashigaru-gashira",
>etc., but again, these are job titles, not ranks. A
>"Kashira" is the head of a particular unit, so the
>ashigaru-kashira would be the leader of a small unit
>of ashigaru, kind of like a platoon leader in the
>modern army.

This specific example seems in my way of thinking to blur the lines a
bit. It seems to me that once 'promoted' to ashigaru-gashira a person
would not go back to being a plain ashigaru. In other words this one
seems more like a permanent promotion rather than just a
battle-by-battle job assignment. What do you think?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Oyakata wrote:

> At the same time I think it's fair to say that there were certainly jo
> bs, or posts, or stations that were more important or prestigious, and
> jobs that were less important and prestigious. In that sense it can be
> said that there were 'ranks'.

But those aren't ranks. They're JOBS. There's a difference, and it's a fairly
critical one. Ranks tend to have a consistency. A lieutenant always has X-number
of people under him, a major X-number of people, a general X-number and so on. A
taisho can have 50, 500, or 5,000.

The most basic "rank" -- that of kashira or taicho^, doesn't even have a number.
A taicho^ (lit. "group-chief") can have five people or 50 under him, depending on
the job and the specific assignment.

> On top of that there were of course the ranks in terms of the
> Shoku-i 職位 system.

Yes, but the Ritsuryo^ Code has nothing to do with this. :)

> This is very well said! In fact (as you and I have exchanged on this
> list before), even the title Shogun is not in essence a "rank". It
> is really a job description. IN fact the title "Shogun" is not even
> part of the Shoku-i ranking system.

Actually, IIRC, it's a fifth-court-rank position.

>>It refers to someone who leads a large body of troops.
>>That could be 10,000 troops, or 300. Obviously if you
>>lead 10,000 you are probably more important, and of
>>higher "rank" than the guy with only 300, but you're
>>still both "Taisho".
>
> Ah - here's what I was getting at. But beyond this, of course an
> ashigaru is lower than a taisho. So at some level wouldn't you be
> able to call this a 'rank'?

No, again, due to the big difference between the concept of "rank" and "job".
You could call ashigaru a *class* of samurai, perhaps, but it's not a rank per
se. Ashigaru had different functions. Some might be section or squad leaders
(taicho^ or kashira) or what have you; sometimes "full-fledged samurai" might
hold those positions.

The thing is, it is VERY important to divorce the concept of terminology of
MILITARY rank from samurai -- they just don't operate on the same level. There
is rank, yes, but that's SOCIAL rank, not military rank.

> Then of course to confuse matters more we have that Ashigaru
> Taisho.....
>
>
>>Similiarly, you'll see things like "Ashigaru-gashira",
>>etc., but again, these are job titles, not ranks. A
>>"Kashira" is the head of a particular unit, so the
>>ashigaru-kashira would be the leader of a small unit
>>of ashigaru, kind of like a platoon leader in the
>>modern army.
>
>
> This specific example seems in my way of thinking to blur the lines a
> bit. It seems to me that once 'promoted' to ashigaru-gashira a person
> would not go back to being a plain ashigaru. In other words this one
> seems more like a permanent promotion rather than just a
> battle-by-battle job assignment. What do you think?

There's no rule. In any feudally structured army, ALL positions and duties are
held at the pleasure of the overlord in question. There is no way to say "I'm a
first sergeant, you can't make me a private without due cause and a
court-martial." Even "permanent" appointments (such as that of a taicho^) in a
Japanese army were understood to be continued appointments that could be
withdrawn at any time (or magnified with further postings) and not one's "right"
to the position.

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> At the same time I think it's fair to say that there
> were certainly jo
> bs, or posts, or stations that were more important
> or prestigious, and
> jobs that were less important and prestigious. In
> that sense it can be
> said that there were 'ranks'.

There were "JOBS" that were more important. But they
are still jobs. Not ranks.

> On top of that there were of course the ranks in
> terms of the
> Shoku-i ���� system.

civil ranks, not military. Completely different from
the issue being discussed.

> Ah - here's what I was getting at. But beyond this,
> of course an
> ashigaru is lower than a taisho. So at some level
> wouldn't you be
> able to call this a 'rank'?

No. While the position is obviously higher than a
footsoldier, it's still not a RANK. It's a job. You
don't make "Taisho 3rd Class".

> Then of course to confuse matters more we have that
> Ashigaru
> Taisho.....

Who leads a larger group of ashigaru than a
ashigaru-kashira, but is still performing a JOB.

> This specific example seems in my way of thinking to
> blur the lines a
> bit. It seems to me that once 'promoted' to
> ashigaru-gashira a person
> would not go back to being a plain ashigaru. In
> other words this one
> seems more like a permanent promotion rather than
> just a
> battle-by-battle job assignment. What do you think?

A company commander is higher than a platoon leader,
and once you're a company commander you're not going
to ever go back to being a platoon leader. However,
they're both still JOBS....descriptions of
function...not RANKS.

Put it this way: in the modern military, ranks
generally coincide with certain job positions. A squad
leader is usually a Staff Sergeant, a platoon sergeant
usually a Sergeant First Class. A platoon leader is
usually a lieutenant (normally 2nd LT), a company XO
is a 1st LT, a company commander is a Captain, majors
hold the main battalion staff positions, such as XO, a
battalion commander is a lieutanant colonel, a brigade
commander is a colonel, etc. Why is it this way?
Because the US Army says that those are the ranks that
go with those positions--someone with the experience
and skill to get promoted to COL should be able to
handle the command of a Brigade, etc. HOWEVER, they
are not equal. I'm a captain, but have not had command
yet--I'm filling a staff position. I filled a staff
position at my last assignment also. So while my rank
has not changed, nor will it in the next few years, my
POSITION has, and will. I will take company command in
a year or so--but that doesn't change my RANK. See the
difference?

There WAS no rank system in a sengoku army. Don't
confuse ranks with "ranking". Obviously some people
were more important than others, and some jobs were
more prestigious, etc. But you didn't start as
Ashigaru 2nd Class, work up to Ashigaru 1st Class,
then Gunsou, then 2nd Samurai, then 1st Samurai, etc.

You simply can't fit the square Sengoku army peg into
the round modern military hole.

Even today, at work I take advantage of the difference
between rank and job title. Our office liaisons with
Japanese 3 and 4 star level officers (generals,
admirals, etc) regularly. I'm a nobody as a simple
captain. But I use my job title, not my rank--Deputy
Operations Officer sounds much better to them then
using my rank, which is the lower than the guy who
gets their coffee in the morning.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> a brigade
> commander is a colonel,

Which always struck me as wrong. I mean, what is the rank of BRIGADIER general,
afterall? The CSA Army had that one right -- and we used to have bird colonels
doing it all the time (and still do).

> There WAS no rank system in a sengoku army. Don't
> confuse ranks with "ranking". Obviously some people
> were more important than others, and some jobs were
> more prestigious, etc. But you didn't start as
> Ashigaru 2nd Class, work up to Ashigaru 1st Class,
> then Gunsou, then 2nd Samurai, then 1st Samurai, etc.

You put it better than I do. I like that perspective of working through
"Ashigaru 2nd class" to "1st Samurai." :)

> You simply can't fit the square Sengoku army peg into
> the round modern military hole.

Which is a chorus I find myself repeating too often....


Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> The thing is, it is VERY important to divorce the
> concept of terminology of
> MILITARY rank from samurai -- they just don't
> operate on the same level. There
> is rank, yes, but that's SOCIAL rank, not military
> rank.

EXACTLY! My family is more prestigious than yours is
not the same as me being a LTC, and you being an LT.

> There's no rule. In any feudally structured army,
> ALL positions and duties are
> held at the pleasure of the overlord in question.
> There is no way to say "I'm a
> first sergeant, you can't make me a private without
> due cause and a
> court-martial." Even "permanent" appointments (such
> as that of a taicho^) in a
> Japanese army were understood to be continued
> appointments that could be
> withdrawn at any time (or magnified with further
> postings) and not one's "right"
> to the position.

Again, exactly. Positions weren't given objectively,
and could be taken away at any time. Even in European
armies at this time, there wasn't a coherent rank
structure as we see today--you might have a few
"lieutenants" or "captains" as subordinate managers,
and a "sergeant at arms" or two to enforce discipline,
but again, there weren't ranks like they developed
into, not yet.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > a brigade
> > commander is a colonel,
>
> Which always struck me as wrong. I mean, what is the
> rank of BRIGADIER general,
> afterall? The CSA Army had that one right -- and we
> used to have bird colonels
> doing it all the time (and still do).

well, we could digress on this for days...I'm still
not entirely sure what happened--the Union army had
BG's as BDE commanders too. Where the split was, I
don't know--I think it was when we ballooned in WWI,
and you simply couldn't have that many generals
waltzing around.

It's always bothered me that a Major General is lower
than a Lieutenant General--then I learned that it used
to be "Sergeant-Major General", and the first part
just got dropped, eventually.

> > There WAS no rank system in a sengoku army. Don't
> > confuse ranks with "ranking". Obviously some
> people
> > were more important than others, and some jobs
> were
> > more prestigious, etc. But you didn't start as
> > Ashigaru 2nd Class, work up to Ashigaru 1st Class,
> > then Gunsou, then 2nd Samurai, then 1st Samurai,
> etc.
>
> You put it better than I do. I like that perspective
> of working through
> "Ashigaru 2nd class" to "1st Samurai." :)

You get to eat in a better mess hall starting at 2nd
Samurai. And the girls like it so much better, too!

> > You simply can't fit the square Sengoku army peg
> into
> > the round modern military hole.
>
> Which is a chorus I find myself repeating too
> often....

*sings along*



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

Oyakata holds session:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:17:53 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:
>
>There were "JOBS" that were more important. But they
>are still jobs. Not ranks.

Nate - again I'm agreeing with you here. :) I think the issue is
probably more or less in how we are both coming at the (English) work
'rank'.

>> On top of that there were of course the ranks in
>> terms of the
>> Shoku-i ソヲーフ system.
>
>civil ranks, not military. Completely different from
>the issue being discussed.

Agreed. Point withdrawn.

>> Ah - here's what I was getting at. But beyond this,
>> of course an
>> ashigaru is lower than a taisho. So at some level
>> wouldn't you be
>> able to call this a 'rank'?
>
>No. While the position is obviously higher than a
>footsoldier, it's still not a RANK. It's a job. You
>don't make "Taisho 3rd Class".

Here I think is where it looks like we're just using different
terminology. Which is what I was trying to get at by saying "rank
and promotion". We can probably agree more violently if we change
the terms slightly. Would you agree to the phrase, for instance, that
a taisho outranks an ashigaru?

>> Then of course to confuse matters more we have that
>> Ashigaru
>> Taisho.....

>Who leads a larger group of ashigaru than a
>ashigaru-kashira, but is still performing a JOB.

>> This specific example seems in my way of thinking to
>> blur the lines a
>> bit. It seems to me that once 'promoted' to
>> ashigaru-gashira a person
>> would not go back to being a plain ashigaru. In
>> other words this one
>> seems more like a permanent promotion rather than
>> just a
>> battle-by-battle job assignment. What do you think?
>
>A company commander is higher than a platoon leader,
>and once you're a company commander you're not going
>to ever go back to being a platoon leader. However,
>they're both still JOBS....descriptions of
>function...not RANKS.

>handle the command of a Brigade, etc. HOWEVER, they
>are not equal. I'm a captain, but have not had command
>yet--I'm filling a staff position. I filled a staff
>position at my last assignment also. So while my rank
>has not changed, nor will it in the next few years, my
>POSITION has, and will. I will take company command in
>a year or so--but that doesn't change my RANK. See the
>difference?

I do. But then again, I think that your personal experience and your
technical expertise is coloring too much the way you are using the
word rank. But then again again, I don't know how the original
poster really meant the question either - so I might be the only one
here who sees this my way (wouldn't be the first time....)

>There WAS no rank system in a sengoku army. Don't
>confuse ranks with "ranking". Obviously some people
>were more important than others, and some jobs were
>more prestigious, etc. But you didn't start as
>Ashigaru 2nd Class, work up to Ashigaru 1st Class,
>then Gunsou, then 2nd Samurai, then 1st Samurai, etc.

Yes, exactly. Which is (again) what I meant by the "rank and
promotion" comment - which I guess didn't really express what I
wanted it to.

>You simply can't fit the square Sengoku army peg into
>the round modern military hole.

Absolutely agreed - believe me. However, the round modern military
hole is not the one and only way to understand the word "rank",
either.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
>
>
>>The thing is, it is VERY important to divorce the
>>concept of terminology of
>>MILITARY rank from samurai -- they just don't
>>operate on the same level. There
>>is rank, yes, but that's SOCIAL rank, not military
>>rank.
>
>
> EXACTLY! My family is more prestigious than yours is
> not the same as me being a LTC, and you being an LT.

Exactly. And... waitaminnit... what do you mean your family is more prestigious
than mine? :P

> Again, exactly. Positions weren't given objectively,
> and could be taken away at any time. Even in European
> armies at this time, there wasn't a coherent rank
> structure as we see today--you might have a few
> "lieutenants" or "captains" as subordinate managers,
> and a "sergeant at arms" or two to enforce discipline,
> but again, there weren't ranks like they developed
> into, not yet.

I think people would generally be surprised at how modern the concept of
rank-structure in armies is. Actually, the Romans were very rank/office set with
the way they did their legions (the first modern armies, afterall), and after
them it was centuries before anything like it was recreated. I think that it
might be a factor of the "equality" of a republican form of government that
created that modern army, as it was certainly not a typical feudal structure
like that which pervaded Europe from the Normans on, until GA's "new model army"
-- and even then it was looser than we think of ranks today. It's interesting to
note that the forerunners of many of our modern "ranks" were actually rather
unique positions and functions under older armies (like your example of sergeant
at arms, or color sergeant or ensign, or...

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> Nate - again I'm agreeing with you here. :) I think
> the issue is
> probably more or less in how we are both coming at
> the (English) work
> 'rank'.

I'm using it in the sense the original poster meant
it, or at least how I percieve it--the original
question was if the samurai had a rank structure
equivalent to that of the US military. The answer is
NO.

Would you agree to the phrase,

> for instance, that
> a taisho outranks an ashigaru?

Yes, but I wouldn't say that "taisho" is a higher RANK
than "ashigaru". Again, the difference between "rank"
and "ranking".

> I do. But then again, I think that your personal
> experience and your
> technical expertise is coloring too much the way you
> are using the
> word rank. But then again again, I don't know how
> the original
> poster really meant the question either - so I might
> be the only one
> here who sees this my way (wouldn't be the first
> time....)

The original poster specifically asked if there was a
correlation to the modern military rank structure, and
specifically mentioned US military ranks. There's no
other way to answer his/her question--the answer is
no. While there was obviously gradation in the
importance of jobs, etc., there were no military
ranks. Pure and simple. You can't even use
translations of the words the Japanese used, because
as has been said, General (Taisho) A may command 300
troops, whereas General B commands 30,000.

> Absolutely agreed - believe me. However, the round
> modern military
> hole is not the one and only way to understand the
> word "rank",
> either.

In the context of the question, yes it is. If we were
talking social rank, or "importance", then yes, that
changes things. But the poster asked if there were
military ranks ala the modern system. The answer is
no. While a taisho may "outrank" an ashigaru, that
makes neither "taisho" or "ashigaru" a rank. If you're
an assembly line worker, someone in corporate
management obviously "outranks" you in the context of
your company. However, your "rank" isn't Factory
Worker, and his isn't "Middle Manager". Those are
jobs--one is "higher" than the other, but they aren't
ranks.



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

Oyakata holds session:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:49:18 -0500, Anthony J. Bryantさん wrote:

>> This is very well said! In fact (as you and I have exchanged on this
>> list before), even the title Shogun is not in essence a "rank". It
>> is really a job description. IN fact the title "Shogun" is not even
>> part of the Shoku-i ranking system.
>
>Actually, IIRC, it's a fifth-court-rank position.

Can you help me to improve my knowlege by pointing to any resources
that would confirm your recollection?

>The thing is, it is VERY important to divorce the concept of terminology of
>MILITARY rank from samurai -- they just don't operate on the same level. There
>is rank, yes, but that's SOCIAL rank, not military rank.

I agree with this in the main - but I think the definition being
used of 'rank' here is a bit too narrow. I personally am not trying
to identify a US Army-style 'rank and progression' system in the
sengoku era.

>There's no rule. In any feudally structured army, ALL positions and duties are
>held at the pleasure of the overlord in question.

Of course. But look again at how I structured my sentance. "It seems
to me that once 'promoted' to ashigaru-gashira a person would not go
back to being a plain ashigaru." I would be very interested in
learning about any cases where it did happen.

> There is no way to say "I'm a
>first sergeant, you can't make me a private without due cause and a
>court-martial."

Totally agree. Of course I would agree, since I in no way implied in
the first place that I though any such notion might exist.

> Even "permanent" appointments (such as that of a taicho^) in a
>Japanese army were understood to be continued appointments that could be
>withdrawn at any time (or magnified with further postings) and not one's
>"right"
>to the position.

I have no idea where these references to 'rights' and courts martial
are coming from. I hope not in reaction to anything that I wrote.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Oyakata wrote:

> Would you agree to the phrase, for instance, that
> a taisho outranks an ashigaru?

That's like saying "would you agree that the chef outranks a busboy." Neither
chef nor busboy are ranks. They are jobs and positions. The chef is, however,
very important and gets to tell people what to do. And busboys are low-boy on
the totem pole. It's like saying "would you agree that the king outranks a
knight." Well, duh. King and knight aren't "ranks" either, precisely speaking,
but the relationship of their roles is clear enough.

> I do. But then again, I think that your personal experience and your
> technical expertise is coloring too much the way you are using the
> word rank. But then again again, I don't know how the original
> poster really meant the question either - so I might be the only one
> here who sees this my way (wouldn't be the first time....)

That's one reason I fight so hard to eliminate the use of "ranks" when talking
about a feudal Japanese army. Or, rather, when the term is used, I try to keep
it clearly a socio-political reference, or something implying that someone HAS
(as in "a taisho outranks the common footsoldier") but avoid using terms that
imply a person HOLDS rank.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

For the benefit of Oyakata, here's the original post
again. I find it highly ironic that it's from a
"Captain".


--- Gloria Proctor <captainnemo12901@...> wrote:

> for my own personal research, i need to know if the
> samurai had military ranks:such as saergent, or
> captains, majors, etc. if so what would be the
> american military eqivalent of it? and what
> specified their rank?
> respectfully yours,
> Captain Nemo
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> well, we could digress on this for days...I'm still
> not entirely sure what happened--the Union army had
> BG's as BDE commanders too. Where the split was, I
> don't know--I think it was when we ballooned in WWI,
> and you simply couldn't have that many generals
> waltzing around.

I remember when I first read about Gettysburg (mumble) years ago, and was
surprised to find that Col. Strong Vincent was the brigade commander of the 3rd
Bde, 1st Div, 5th Corps. He was mortally wounded on Little Round Top and was
made a brevet brigadier, but didn't live to wear the star. (He also went from
Lt1 to LCol overnight :) .)

> It's always bothered me that a Major General is lower
> than a Lieutenant General--then I learned that it used
> to be "Sergeant-Major General", and the first part
> just got dropped, eventually.

Yeah... for several years I had that backwards, until I saw that little bit of
trivia and the light went on. (I *had* wondered why there was no "captain
general" (outside the Elizabethan navy :) ) and I'm still annoyed that the
ranking general just gets a naked "general." Since LtGen and MajGen are also
addressed as "general" it just struck me as unfair.

I miss the title "field marshall." :)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Yes, but I wouldn't say that "taisho" is a higher RANK
> than "ashigaru". Again, the difference between "rank"
> and "ranking".

THat's why I try to distinguish the difference between HAVING and HOLDING rank.
Unfortunately, that's a point too fine for some people to get, unless they are
already familiar with the difference in concept and terminology between the two.

> You can't even use
> translations of the words the Japanese used, because
> as has been said, General (Taisho) A may command 300
> troops, whereas General B commands 30,000.

THat's why I like to vary terminology when talking about the same character
("Honda Tadakatsu was one of Ieyasu's most trusted lieutenants.... Tadakatsu was
a valiant captain.... As a general, Tadakatsu was fearless and totally
reliable...."). Note that all of these uses are occupational (job terms), as
while I can say "the general, Tadakatsu" but not once could I say "General
Tadakatsu." It either removes the idea of rank right away, or confuses the hell
out of people who don't get it.

> In the context of the question, yes it is. If we were
> talking social rank, or "importance", then yes, that
> changes things. But the poster asked if there were
> military ranks ala the modern system. The answer is
> no. While a taisho may "outrank" an ashigaru, that
> makes neither "taisho" or "ashigaru" a rank. If you're
> an assembly line worker, someone in corporate
> management obviously "outranks" you in the context of
> your company. However, your "rank" isn't Factory
> Worker, and his isn't "Middle Manager". Those are
> jobs--one is "higher" than the other, but they aren't
> ranks.

Bingo. (Bungo. Echizen...)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

I thought it was 4th rank (seiitaishogun) rather than fifth, but my
memory is not very good. There was an excellent website I found in
Japanese that covers the entire court ranking system right down to
samanosuke and -no kami ranks, but I dont remember the URL. LTDomer
has it, I hope, because last time he forgot it, I sent it to him...
On that topic of ranks, I remember watching a history show a while
ago that said that the reason that Hideyoshi went after "Kampaku"
rather than "shogun" had nothing to do with his own genealogy and
thus "worthiness" of the shogun rank (When you are tenkabito, you can
invent whatever genealogy necesary to become shogun), but simply
because Kampaku "outranks" shogun, and Hideyoshi, who has always been
a dreamer and a romantic, wanted to shoot for the highest position
possible, rather than the 4th ranked "seiitaishogun" - I might be
getting my facts here mixed a bit, but that was the general idea,
anyway.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
> Oyakata holds session:
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:49:18 -0500, Anthony J. Bryant､ｵ､� wrote:
>
> >> This is very well said! In fact (as you and I have exchanged on
this
> >> list before), even the title Shogun is not in essence a "rank".
It
> >> is really a job description. IN fact the title "Shogun" is not
even
> >> part of the Shoku-i ranking system.
> >
> >Actually, IIRC, it's a fifth-court-rank position.
>
> Can you help me to improve my knowlege by pointing to any resources
> that would confirm your recollection?

I think he went off the track of the original post, and looked at it
like a manager outranks a supervisor, but it is a job, not a rank,
but there is some form of recognition when you are a supervisor that
you are "outranked" by your manager. So as an ashigaru, your taisho
outranks you with his job position, like the employee-manager setup,
but it isnt "rank", it is just a job, or job title.



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> For the benefit of Oyakata, here's the original post
> again. I find it highly ironic that it's from a
> "Captain".

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> I remember when I first read about Gettysburg
> (mumble) years ago, and was
> surprised to find that Col. Strong Vincent was the
> brigade commander of the 3rd
> Bde, 1st Div, 5th Corps. He was mortally wounded on
> Little Round Top and was
> made a brevet brigadier, but didn't live to wear the
> star. (He also went from
> Lt1 to LCol overnight :) .)

I'm not a War of Northern Aggression expert, but I
believe that was not standard practice--casualties
being what they were, he may have been a COL
commanding a BDE because there were no BG's to do so.

> I miss the title "field marshall." :)

As long as they don't bring back 'Commodore'. Man that
sounds silly.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> THat's why I like to vary terminology when talking
> about the same character
> ("Honda Tadakatsu was one of Ieyasu's most trusted
> lieutenants.... Tadakatsu was
> a valiant captain.... As a general, Tadakatsu was
> fearless and totally
> reliable...."). Note that all of these uses are
> occupational (job terms), as
> while I can say "the general, Tadakatsu" but not
> once could I say "General
> Tadakatsu." It either removes the idea of rank right
> away, or confuses the hell
> out of people who don't get it.

Unfortunately, it's probably the latter more often
than not.

> Bingo. (Bungo. Echizen...)

As long as it's not "Bitchu"...



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

Oyakata holds session:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 20:42:45 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:
>
>
>--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:
>
>> Nate - again I'm agreeing with you here. :) I think
>> the issue is
>> probably more or less in how we are both coming at
>> the (English) work
>> 'rank'.
>
>I'm using it in the sense the original poster meant
>it, or at least how I percieve it--the original
>question was if the samurai had a rank structure
>equivalent to that of the US military. The answer is
>NO.

Yes I see that you are right. The original poster did specifically ask
the question about ranks in the context of how they would relate to
modern US military rank. Point ceded.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Oyakata holds session:

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 07:45:51 -0000, Kitsunoさん wrote:
>I think he went off the track of the original post,
Yes - it looks like I read the question in a, well, unique kind of
way. :)

> and looked at it
>like a manager outranks a supervisor, but it is a job, not a rank,

Here, though, I must defend myself. I was trying to bring some
harmony to the discussion to find points where we could easily
agree

I still do feel that it is a fair thing to say that there were
'ranks' in the more generic sense that I was using - which admittedly
is is different from the sense that the OP asked the question.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Hi Folks,

I must say that I really enjoyed my download this morning, nice thread,
nicely discussed, not to mention illuminating, and it's left me with a
question to which I hope you folks can provide an answer:

Imagine a hypothetical Daimyo, "Lord X", who needs to organise his army.
What roles does he need to create and what are their titles? Can anyone
either point me to a site, or provide me with a list of the various jobs
etc.

Also, what do these various titles literally mean, for example, the word
taichou, was translated in to "group-chief", assuming the kanji is the
same, does this mean that taisho means something like "group-something
else" and if so what?

Likewise, it appeared that kashira and taichou were different words for
the same job. Is this simply a function of the era/region/fashion/taste
of the army using the title, or was there another subtlety at play?

Okay to summarise then, as I understand it ALL sengoku armies (more or
less):

1) have the same range of required "appointments" within its structure,
regardless of it's relative size when compared to another lord's army.

2) thus there is no difference what so ever, to the titles used within
that army, as they merely describe the various tasks being undertaken by
the "appointees".

3) any prestige accrues to these appointees from either:

(a) the comparative social standing of one army when compared to
another, or

(b) as a function of the perceived quality/value of some but not all
appointments within their own army, for example the kudos of being
appointed as a messenger within the Takeda forces.

The sorts of jobs that occurred to me included:

1) army overall "manager", if not the lord himself.
2) sub-contingent managers, probably defined by inter-personal
relationship with the lord.
3) large sub-unit manager's, probably defined by function, i.e. units of
cavalry or infantry (bushi or ashigaru)
4) smaller sub-unit managers, either as part of a larger one or
fulfilling a specialist role, messengers, artillery or HQ guards etc.

Apart from the main function divisions of cavalry, spearman, gunners and
archers, the task type roles would include:

1) support personnel such as porters, pack horse and cart handlers,
doctors/vets, pages/servants, cooks and other artisans/craftsmen.

2) specialists: such as artillery crews, siege engineers and sailors.

3) communications roles such as messengers, flag bearers (various
banners/standards), drummers, conch players etc.

Plus sandal bearers, kitchen sink bearers... You get the idea.

Well I think that's enough of that, cheer's for now.

Dean

****
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

Oyakata wrote:

> I still do feel that it is a fair thing to say that there were
> 'ranks' in the more generic sense that I was using - which admittedly
> is is different from the sense that the OP asked the question.

Most would disagree.

There was "rank." There were no "ranks."


Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>>I miss the title "field marshall." :)
>
>
> As long as they don't bring back 'Commodore'. Man that
> sounds silly.

Not as silly as "rear admiral, lower half." Was any juxtaposition of
third-grade-funny butt-euphemisms given to someone of such importance? :)

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>>Bingo. (Bungo. Echizen...)
>
>
> As long as it's not "Bitchu"...

As I sometimes describe myself as a "son of the South" -- I wonder if people
from the area could be described as sons of Bitchu...

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> I'm not a War of Northern Aggression expert...

=:O

You did not just go there!

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> > Bingo. (Bungo. Echizen...)
>
> As long as it's not "Bitchu"...

Wasnt Kenshin's favorite battle formation the "Bitchu Tataki"?

Kitsuno wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm not a War of Northern Aggression expert...
>
>
> =:O
>
> You did not just go there!

Would you prefer "The Second War for Independence"?


Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
>
> > I'm not a War of Northern Aggression expert...
>
> =:O
>
> You did not just go there!

Well, being as I'm a qualified Son of the Confederacy
(If I ever wanted to apply...), several generations
removed from a Confederate Colonel, I'll use the
phrase. Though I must say, I always root for the North
when watching a Civil War movie...




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> As long as it's not "Bitchu"...
>
> Wasnt Kenshin's favorite battle formation the
> "Bitchu Tataki"?

I'm trying to picture him in a pimp-kimono...

Next thing we need is a Blaxploitation Samurai
movie...Snoop Dogg could be Kenshin...




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Next thing we need is a Blaxploitation Samurai
> movie...Snoop Dogg could be Kenshin...

"Who's the baddest warrior around?"

"The Sho-nuff!"

Effingham
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > Next thing we need is a Blaxploitation Samurai
> > movie...Snoop Dogg could be Kenshin...
>
> "Who's the baddest warrior around?"
>
> "The Sho-nuff!"

Nice. I'd forgotten about that one. How could I forget
about the "Shogun of Harlem"?

Now if we could only get Tarantino to direct, and
Samuel L. Jackson to play Nobunaga...



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>>"The Sho-nuff!"
>
>
> Nice. I'd forgotten about that one. How could I forget
> about the "Shogun of Harlem"?

It was a classic.

> Now if we could only get Tarantino to direct, and
> Samuel L. Jackson to play Nobunaga...

You know, that could work.

I can see Samuel L. Jackson now: "I'm about to go sengoku on your ass!"

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> You know, that could work.
>
> I can see Samuel L. Jackson now: "I'm about to go
> sengoku on your ass!"

"Humans live for 50 years...except for you, MF--I'm
cutting your nappy head off right now! Non-singing
cuckoo MF!"




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Snoop Dogg??????Are you kidding????He is an idiot!!!(mentally,he doesn't know a single thing about Japanese History or even American history!!!!!!)But he's a great rapper.

Edy


Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> As long as it's not "Bitchu"...
>
> Wasnt Kenshin's favorite battle formation the
> "Bitchu Tataki"?

I'm trying to picture him in a pimp-kimono...

Next thing we need is a Blaxploitation Samurai
movie...Snoop Dogg could be Kenshin...




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Snoop Dogg??????Are you kidding????

Um, yes.



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

But Snoop Dogg is a BLACK person!!!!(I'm not a rasist!!!!!)Kenshin was a white person!!!

Edy

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Snoop Dogg??????Are you kidding????

Um, yes.



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush


---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> But Snoop Dogg is a BLACK person!!!!(I'm not a

rasist!!!!!)Kenshin was a white person!!!

Actually, Kenshin was a Japanese person :-)

OK this is the way I see it, and we can split the boxoffice:

Snoop Dog plays Kenshin, 50 cent plays Shingen, and the
highlight of the movie is 4th Kawanakajima, as the Kai Posse
put the moves on Mt Saijo, Kenshin and his homies jump into
the stretch limo and tear off round the mountain - cue car chase -
the advantage of a stretch is that at least half a dozen
archers can fire from the sunroofs.

Then the final confrontation between Snoop and 50 at Shingen's
honjin. You can write your own dialogue ...

Think about it guys, we could be rich!

Thomas

Edward Alexander wrote:

> But Snoop Dogg is a BLACK person!!!!(I'm not a rasist!!!!!)Kenshin was a white person!!!

Um, no. Kenshin was Japanese.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

Thomas Davidson wrote:

> Then the final confrontation between Snoop and 50 at Shingen's
> honjin. You can write your own dialogue ...
>

Well, I always thought it had something of the "drive-by" about it.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> But Snoop Dogg is a BLACK person!!!!(I'm not a
> rasist!!!!!)

That's the irony, isn't it? :)

>Kenshin was a white person!!!

No, he was Japanese, not white.

Now do you see why the thought of Tom Cruise as
Shingen makes me gag?



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Well,if that's the case the cast should be the following:

Dr. Dre and Eminem - Directors

50 Cent , Snoop Dogg , Usher , Ludacris , Chingy , ..... as the actors

and the rest you figure it out.

Maybe I'll be a good movie but I think it will be a blockbuster if the actors were japanese.

Edy


"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:Thomas Davidson wrote:

> Then the final confrontation between Snoop and 50 at Shingen's
> honjin. You can write your own dialogue ...
>

Well, I always thought it had something of the "drive-by" about it.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder




---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That's not the point.I wanted to say about his skin colour not what his nationality was.If he was a land owner of course he's a Japanese person!!!!

Edy



"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:Edward Alexander wrote:

> But Snoop Dogg is a BLACK person!!!!(I'm not a rasist!!!!!)Kenshin was a white person!!!

Um, no. Kenshin was Japanese.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder




---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think it's not good.Japanese movies should be played by Japnese performers(maybe it was better to represent the battle in Kabuki "style",I mean it should be a Kabuki show or maybe a Bunraku or Noh theatre.Figure out which is best.)

Edy


Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:OK this is the way I see it, and we can split the boxoffice:

Snoop Dog plays Kenshin, 50 cent plays Shingen, and the
highlight of the movie is 4th Kawanakajima, as the Kai Posse
put the moves on Mt Saijo, Kenshin and his homies jump into
the stretch limo and tear off round the mountain - cue car chase -
the advantage of a stretch is that at least half a dozen
archers can fire from the sunroofs.

Then the final confrontation between Snoop and 50 at Shingen's
honjin. You can write your own dialogue ...

Think about it guys, we could be rich!

Thomas




---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> That's not the point.I wanted to say about his skin
> colour not what his nationality was.If he was a land
> owner of course he's a Japanese person!!!!
>
> Edy

Edy--

You're young, so rather than go off like this made me
want to do, I'll just explain some things:

1. Owning land has nothing to do with your race and or
nationality. If I managed to make it through the
convoluted laws and buy a piece of land here in Tokyo,
that still does not make me Japanese.

2. "Japanese" is a race as well as a nationality.
Japanese are not "WHITE", otherwise known as
Caucasian. They are Japanese. If you want something
more general, you could say Asian, but Japanese are
distinct racially from other Asian groups.

3. The whole Snoop Dogg thing--IT'S A JOKE! No one is
serious about it.



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush

Ok.It's a joke.

1.I never knew Japanese is a race.If I heard this from my friends at school I would have not believed them.But since you are from Japan are have immense experience and you are my friends I trust you.

2.Good for you to have a piece of land in Tokyo.I envy you for this.

Edy

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> That's not the point.I wanted to say about his skin
> colour not what his nationality was.If he was a land
> owner of course he's a Japanese person!!!!
>
> Edy

Edy--

You're young, so rather than go off like this made me
want to do, I'll just explain some things:

1. Owning land has nothing to do with your race and or
nationality. If I managed to make it through the
convoluted laws and buy a piece of land here in Tokyo,
that still does not make me Japanese.

2. "Japanese" is a race as well as a nationality.
Japanese are not "WHITE", otherwise known as
Caucasian. They are Japanese. If you want something
more general, you could say Asian, but Japanese are
distinct racially from other Asian groups.

3. The whole Snoop Dogg thing--IT'S A JOKE! No one is
serious about it.



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush


---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I finally got it. :)

Edy


Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> But Snoop Dogg is a BLACK person!!!!(I'm not a
> rasist!!!!!)

That's the irony, isn't it? :)

>Kenshin was a white person!!!

No, he was Japanese, not white.

Now do you see why the thought of Tom Cruise as
Shingen makes me gag?



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail


---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT


---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




Eddy



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]