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Shingen's Gekokujo

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#5237 [2004-08-15 07:49:12]

Shingen's Gekokujo

by kitsuno

I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father, and
actually came up with two different versions of events.

The first version goes roughly like this:

in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father Nobutora
attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle is
won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,
and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).

The second version goes like this:

In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen had
plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage" of
Yoshimoto.

I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than one
sources. does anyone know which is more likely?

[Next #5240]

#5240 [2004-08-15 08:27:03]

Re: [samuraihistory] Shingen's Gekokujo

by edyhiphop

Kitsuno,
The second is the true one.I've read about it.Plus,the generals of Nobutora also helped Shingen.(they helped him because the generals saw Shingen was much more capable than his father;the siege against Hiraga Genshin's castle,Nobutora had a big army but Genshin's men drove them back although they were outnumbered.Shingen captured Hiraga Genshin's castle with only 300 men and a very simple method;he split his army into 3 parts and those 3 parts surrounded the castle.Genshin was unable to determine the number and he gave up without a fight.Shingen came back with Genshin's head but Nobutora criticized Shingen because he didn't stay at the castle.All the generals were completely stunned by Shingen's capabilities so that's how he gained they're good grace)
Plus,Shingen was quite adopted by Yoshimoto.Nobutora was furious when he heard this.So he decided to get rid of Shingen.Yoshimoto and Shingen knew that he would come.After Nobutora finished his discussion with Yoshimoto,Nobutora was under house arrest.And when Shingen proclaimed himself the leadership of the Takeda clan,the generals(including Itakagi Nobutaka,Takasaka Masanobu,Baba Nobufusa,Yamamoto Kansuke,Takeda Nobushige.....) didn't move a finger.
So that's how Shingen got the Takeda clan.

Edy





Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote:I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father, and
actually came up with two different versions of events.

The first version goes roughly like this:

in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father Nobutora
attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle is
won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,
and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).

The second version goes like this:

In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen had
plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage" of
Yoshimoto.

I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than one
sources. does anyone know which is more likely?



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[Previous #5237] [Next #5251]

#5251 [2004-08-15 21:33:37]

Re: Shingen's Gekokujo

by kitsuno

To add slightly to the below, I did some minor research at the local
library, and found that most books basically give no info other
than "Shingen overthrew his father in a bloodless coup". I did find
one more books that went into more detail. It almost seemed to be a
combination of the two theories, stating that After the attack on
Unno Munetsuna, for some reason they went to Suruga, and
unfortunately I couldnt read the key kanji in the key sentence, but
it seemed to be something about Nobutora going to Yoshimoto to
discuss the boarder between Kai and Suruga province, at which time he
is retired in favor of shingen. So it appears that Yoshimoto had
some hand in it, but it still is pretty inconclusive.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:
> I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father,
and
> actually came up with two different versions of events.
>
> The first version goes roughly like this:
>
> in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father
Nobutora
> attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle
is
> won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,
> and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
> drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
> in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).
>
> The second version goes like this:
>
> In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
> visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
> Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen
had
> plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
> retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage"
of
> Yoshimoto.
>
> I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
> specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than
one
> sources. does anyone know which is more likely?

[Previous #5240] [Next #5253]

#5253 [2004-08-15 23:36:47]

Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

I'd read previously, I believe in Sansom but not sure,
that the Ginkakuji was NOT ever supposed to be
actually covered in silver, but was simply referred to
as the Ginkaku (Silver Pavilion) to distinguish it
from the similiar Kinkaku (Golden Pavilion), which
actually IS covered in gold (though the covering of
the bottom floor is modern).

I just received Turnbull's "War in Japan, 1467-1615",
and he asserts that the Ginkaku was supposed to be
covered in silver, but the turmoil of the Onin War
prevented that.

Anyone have any better resources on this? Being as
it's Turnbull (and the man needs to get a decent
editor...criminy...in one photo caption he says that
Nobunaga's competing heirs were his brothers, when
they were his second and third son, as we all know.
I'll grant that he corrects himself in the text) I'm
inclined to go with Sansom, but I'd heard this alleged
before.

Anyone?




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[Previous #5251] [Next #5254]

#5254 [2004-08-16 00:46:56]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Shingen's Gekokujo

by edyhiphop

Yoshimoto was a big part in overthrowing Nobutora and helping Shingen to be the head of the clan!!!!!!!

Edy


Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote:To add slightly to the below, I did some minor research at the local
library, and found that most books basically give no info other
than "Shingen overthrew his father in a bloodless coup". I did find
one more books that went into more detail. It almost seemed to be a
combination of the two theories, stating that After the attack on
Unno Munetsuna, for some reason they went to Suruga, and
unfortunately I couldnt read the key kanji in the key sentence, but
it seemed to be something about Nobutora going to Yoshimoto to
discuss the boarder between Kai and Suruga province, at which time he
is retired in favor of shingen. So it appears that Yoshimoto had
some hand in it, but it still is pretty inconclusive.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:
> I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father,
and
> actually came up with two different versions of events.
>
> The first version goes roughly like this:
>
> in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father
Nobutora
> attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle
is
> won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,
> and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
> drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
> in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).
>
> The second version goes like this:
>
> In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
> visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
> Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen
had
> plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
> retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage"
of
> Yoshimoto.
>
> I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
> specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than
one
> sources. does anyone know which is more likely?



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[Previous #5253] [Next #5255]

#5255 [2004-08-16 00:52:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] Shingen's Gekokujo

by edyhiphop

Kitsuno,
The second is the true one.I've read about it.Plus,the generals of Nobutora also helped Shingen.(they helped him because the generals saw Shingen was much more capable than his father;the siege against Hiraga Genshin's castle,Nobutora had a big army but Genshin's men drove them back although they were outnumbered.Shingen captured Hiraga Genshin's castle with only 300 men and a very simple method;he split his army into 3 parts and those 3 parts surrounded the castle.Genshin was unable to determine the number and he gave up without a fight.Shingen came back with Genshin's head but Nobutora criticized Shingen because he didn't stay at the castle.All the generals were completely stunned by Shingen's capabilities so that's how he gained they're good grace)
Plus,Shingen was quite adopted by Yoshimoto.Nobutora was furious when he heard this.So he decided to get rid of Shingen.Yoshimoto and Shingen knew that he would come.After Nobutora finished his discussion with Yoshimoto,Nobutora was under house arrest.And when Shingen proclaimed himself the leadership of the Takeda clan,the generals(including Itakagi Nobutaka,Takasaka Masanobu,Baba Nobufusa,Yamamoto Kansuke,Takeda Nobushige.....) didn't move a finger.
So that's how Shingen got the Takeda clan.

Edy





Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...> wrote: I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father, and
actually came up with two different versions of events.

The first version goes roughly like this:

in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father Nobutora
attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle is
won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,
and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).

The second version goes like this:

In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen had
plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage" of
Yoshimoto.

I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than one
sources. does anyone know which is more likely?



---
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---



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#5256 [2004-08-16 01:12:04]

Re: [samuraihistory] Ginkakuji

by edyhiphop

Nate,
The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji Temple????

Edy

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
I'd read previously, I believe in Sansom but not sure,
that the Ginkakuji was NOT ever supposed to be
actually covered in silver, but was simply referred to
as the Ginkaku (Silver Pavilion) to distinguish it
from the similiar Kinkaku (Golden Pavilion), which
actually IS covered in gold (though the covering of
the bottom floor is modern).

I just received Turnbull's "War in Japan, 1467-1615",
and he asserts that the Ginkaku was supposed to be
covered in silver, but the turmoil of the Onin War
prevented that.

Anyone have any better resources on this? Being as
it's Turnbull (and the man needs to get a decent
editor...criminy...in one photo caption he says that
Nobunaga's competing heirs were his brothers, when
they were his second and third son, as we all know.
I'll grant that he corrects himself in the text) I'm
inclined to go with Sansom, but I'd heard this alleged
before.

Anyone?




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#5259 [2004-08-16 04:46:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> Nate,
> The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with
> gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
> Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji
> Temple????

Um, thanks, I know, I've been there 6 times. I said it
was covered in gold--however, the bottom floor was not
covered in gold until it was rebuilt in the 1950's,
after burning down.

The Ginkaku-ji is in Higashiyama, Kyoto.




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#5261 [2004-08-16 06:17:17]

Re: Shingen's Gekokujo

by kitsuno

After researching Japanese sources for the past few days, it looks
like generally speaking, historians believe Yoshimoto had a hand in
it. Apparently some Imagawa records mention it. The Koyogunkan
basicaly says (and I am getting this from a source that quotes it,
not from the source itself - my copy of the KoyoGunKan is who knows
where....) that Nobutora plotted to dispose of Harunobu (shingen) and
have his second son Nobushige succeed him, however Harunobu found out
about the plot, and vassals loyal to him assisted in driving Nobutora
out, causing him to flee to Suruga. Obviously, it doesnt mention
Imagawa's hand in the affair, but since the KoyoGunKan was written by
vassals of Shingen after his death, it makes sense that they would
want it to look like Shingen did it on his own. The historical
records are obviously not very clear, but it seems safe to assume
that Yoshimoto had a hand in Shingen's succession to head of the
Takeda clan.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Edward Alexander
wrote:
> Yoshimoto was a big part in overthrowing Nobutora and helping
Shingen to be the head of the clan!!!!!!!
>
> Edy
>
>
> Kitsuno wrote:To add slightly to the
below, I did some minor research at the local
> library, and found that most books basically give no info other
> than "Shingen overthrew his father in a bloodless coup". I did
find
> one more books that went into more detail. It almost seemed to be
a
> combination of the two theories, stating that After the attack on
> Unno Munetsuna, for some reason they went to Suruga, and
> unfortunately I couldnt read the key kanji in the key sentence, but
> it seemed to be something about Nobutora going to Yoshimoto to
> discuss the boarder between Kai and Suruga province, at which time
he
> is retired in favor of shingen. So it appears that Yoshimoto had
> some hand in it, but it still is pretty inconclusive.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" > listowner@s...> wrote:
> > I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father,
> and
> > actually came up with two different versions of events.
> >
> > The first version goes roughly like this:
> >
> > in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father
> Nobutora
> > attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle
> is
> > won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on
6/4,
> > and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his
Ashigaru,
> > drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa
Yoshimoto,
> > in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).
> >
> > The second version goes like this:
> >
> > In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
> > visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
in
> > Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen
> had
> > plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
> > retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage"
> of
> > Yoshimoto.
> >
> > I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from
a
> > specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than
> one
> > sources. does anyone know which is more likely?
>
>
>
> ---
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>
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Service.
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>
>
>
> Eddy
>
>
>
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#5262 [2004-08-16 15:28:27]

Re: [samuraihistory] Ginkakuji

by sengokudaimyo

Edward Alexander wrote:
> Nate,
> The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
> Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji Temple????

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3907.html

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#5273 [2004-08-16 18:33:52]

Re: [samuraihistory] Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Edward Alexander wrote:
> > Nate,
> > The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with
> gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
> > Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji
> Temple????
>
> http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3907.html

Tony:

From the website you give:
"Plans to cover the pavilion in silver were never
realized."

Can you confirm or deny? Is this just a commonly
believed rumor, perpetuated to highlight the poverty
and so forth of the Yoshimasa shogunate, or did they
really intend to cover it in silver and not make it?

Nate



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#5274 [2004-08-16 18:39:37]

Re: Ginkakuji

by kurotatsunoshi

Sansom states that Ginkakuji was never covered in silver foil,
although there were plans to do so. Every source I've read (including
the Japanese ones) echoes this-the Shogunate at the time simply did
not have the money to follow through. When I've talked to the people
who staff Ginkakuji they also state this (but they likely would even
if it wasn't true...makes for a better sounding history!).
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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#5275 [2004-08-16 18:55:12]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- kurotatsunoshi <ayamechiba@...> wrote:

> Sansom states that Ginkakuji was never covered in
> silver foil,
> although there were plans to do so. Every source
> I've read (including
> the Japanese ones) echoes this-the Shogunate at the
> time simply did
> not have the money to follow through. When I've
> talked to the people
> who staff Ginkakuji they also state this (but they
> likely would even
> if it wasn't true...makes for a better sounding
> history!).

Okay, must have been somewhere besides Sansom. The
official website (linked off of the website Tony gave)
makes no mention at all of even why it's called the
Ginkakuji, or why it's not covered with silver. You'd
think the official website would address this, at
least the origin of the name.

I know I've read in a reputable sources somewhere that
the Ginkaku was not actually supposed to be covered in
silver. The reasoning is that it was built in a
similiar style to the Kinkaku (it's uncanny how
similiar the actual pavilions themselves are), and so
was named such because it was just a contrast between
the two.

While it seems to make sense that the reason was lack
of funds, etc., it just for some reason sticks in my
head as "too easy"...as something that one "expert"
said, and now everyone echoes them without really
looking into it. It really bothers me that the
Ginkakuji itself makes no mention of it.

Oh well.



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#5278 [2004-08-16 19:11:08]

Re: Ginkakuji

by kurotatsunoshi

I believe it was such an exact replica because the Shogun Yoshimasa
thought very highly of his Grandfather Yoshimitsu (who built
Kinkakuji, and is generally regarded as being the best of the
Ashikaga Shoguns). He wanted to replicate his greatest work but in
keeping with the idea of not putting himself over his ancestors
planned to finish it in silver instead of gold.
As you point out though, many times it's the better story that ends
up becoming the "accepted history".
>
>
>
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#5279 [2004-08-16 19:18:32]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- kurotatsunoshi <ayamechiba@...> wrote:

> I believe it was such an exact replica because the
> Shogun Yoshimasa
> thought very highly of his Grandfather Yoshimitsu
> (who built
> Kinkakuji, and is generally regarded as being the
> best of the
> Ashikaga Shoguns). He wanted to replicate his
> greatest work but in
> keeping with the idea of not putting himself over
> his ancestors
> planned to finish it in silver instead of gold.
> As you point out though, many times it's the better
> story that ends
> up becoming the "accepted history".

The Ginkakuji website states it was because he visited
the Rokuonji (the official name of the Kinkakuji) on
an inspection and decided to copy the design. Mentions
nothing about covering it in silver, which I still
find odd. When I can get on a computer that I can
search in Japanese, I'll look more. I'd just like to
see something besides Turnbull and "every source I've read"...



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[Previous #5278] [Next #6862]

#6862 [2005-03-27 07:05:27]

Re: Ginkakuji

by nahless

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:
>
> --- kurotatsunoshi wrote:
>
> > I believe it was such an exact replica because the
> > Shogun Yoshimasa
> > thought very highly of his Grandfather Yoshimitsu
> > (who built
> > Kinkakuji, and is generally regarded as being the
> > best of the
> > Ashikaga Shoguns). He wanted to replicate his
> > greatest work but in
> > keeping with the idea of not putting himself over
> > his ancestors
> > planned to finish it in silver instead of gold.
> > As you point out though, many times it's the better
> > story that ends
> > up becoming the "accepted history".
>
> The Ginkakuji website states it was because he visited
> the Rokuonji (the official name of the Kinkakuji) on
> an inspection and decided to copy the design. Mentions
> nothing about covering it in silver, which I still
> find odd. When I can get on a computer that I can
> search in Japanese, I'll look more. I'd just like to
> see something besides Turnbull and "every source I've read"...

You might want to read 'Yoshimasa and the silver pavilion' by
Donald Keene (Columbia University Press). This book is about
(probably) the worst shogun in Japanese history, Ashikaga Yoshimasa,
who had a great impact on Japanese culture as it is known today. He
was a patron for many Japanese artists. Whether No, cha-no-yu,
calligraphy or Waka (for which Yoshimasa seems to have had a
talent). The book doesn't mention that the Ginkaku-ji was supposed
to be decorated (or covered) with silver. The name (according to
Keene) merely is a 'reference' (not sure about this term) to
Ashikaga Yoshimitsu's Kinkaku-ji.

Nahless

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#6864 [2005-03-27 21:45:19]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- nahless <mr.ripley@...> wrote:

> You might want to read 'Yoshimasa and the silver
> pavilion' by
> Donald Keene (Columbia University Press). This book
> is about
> (probably) the worst shogun in Japanese history,
> Ashikaga Yoshimasa,
> who had a great impact on Japanese culture as it is
> known today. He
> was a patron for many Japanese artists. Whether No,
> cha-no-yu,
> calligraphy or Waka (for which Yoshimasa seems to
> have had a
> talent). The book doesn't mention that the
> Ginkaku-ji was supposed
> to be decorated (or covered) with silver. The name
> (according to
> Keene) merely is a 'reference' (not sure about this
> term) to
> Ashikaga Yoshimitsu's Kinkaku-ji.

Wow, this is a reply to an old post. When I first
looked at it I didn't even realize it was a reply to
me!

Actually, last time I went to the Ginkakuji (in June)
I asked--as I thought, and as Prof Keene says, it's
merely a distinction between itself and the
"Kinkakuji" , Rokuon-ji. There never were any plans to
cover it in silver, much to the contrary of what
guidebooks and Mr. Turnbull will tell you.

Nate












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#6867 [2005-03-28 21:15:21]

Re: Ginkakuji

by kurotatsunoshi

"Actually, last time I went to the Ginkakuji (in June)
I asked--as I thought, and as Prof Keene says, it's
merely a distinction between itself and the
"Kinkakuji" , Rokuon-ji. There never were any plans to
cover it in silver, much to the contrary of what
guidebooks and Mr. Turnbull will tell you."

During my last visit to Japan in January, I asked my wife to call
Ginkakuji and they said that yes, there were plans to cover it in
silver (and went on to give the standard background). This may be a
case of them giving the answer they think the asker may want.
Short of someone uncovering a contemporary document that specifically
mentions plans for covering it in silver foil, I think we'll never know
for sure.

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#6868 [2005-03-28 23:57:09]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by hide050316

according this article,
http://kyoto-np.jp/article.php?mid=P2005031700147&genre=J1&area=K1D

until now, resercher have not confirm trace of silver in wall of ginkakuji.

in 2006, researcher is going to investigate ginkakuji to confirm whether
there are trace of silver or not.

there are two theory which as to why ginkakuji not coating with silver.

one reason

name of ginkakuji was used to from edo piriod, compre kinkakuji.
until edo piriod, they had not called it "ginkakuji"

one reason

in case muromati-bakuhu had beeing at the ebb, Yosimasa could not coat with
silver.

my english is very poor.
if you want to know reason, please read this japanease website.sorry.
http://kyoto-np.jp/article.php?mid=P2005031700147&genre=J1&area=K1D


----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Schadel" <ayamechiba@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji


>
>
> "Actually, last time I went to the Ginkakuji (in June)
> I asked--as I thought, and as Prof Keene says, it's
> merely a distinction between itself and the
> "Kinkakuji" , Rokuon-ji. There never were any plans to
> cover it in silver, much to the contrary of what
> guidebooks and Mr. Turnbull will tell you."
>
> During my last visit to Japan in January, I asked my wife to call
> Ginkakuji and they said that yes, there were plans to cover it in
> silver (and went on to give the standard background). This may be a
> case of them giving the answer they think the asker may want.
> Short of someone uncovering a contemporary document that specifically
> mentions plans for covering it in silver foil, I think we'll never know
> for sure.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
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#6869 [2005-03-29 00:34:20]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by soshuju

As Hide has said,
I believe Sansom also states that it was to be covered in
silver but Yoshimasa had bankrupted the government and there were no
funds to complete it...
-t

[Previous #6868] [Next #6870]

#6870 [2005-03-29 13:15:29]

Re: Ginkakuji

by nahless

> Actually, last time I went to the Ginkakuji (in June)
> I asked--as I thought, and as Prof Keene says, it's
> merely a distinction between itself and the
> "Kinkakuji" , Rokuon-ji. There never were any plans to
> cover it in silver, much to the contrary of what
> guidebooks and Mr. Turnbull will tell you.
>
> Nate

I agree. The ginkaku-ji wasn't meant to be covered in silver. The
name merely alludes to the Kinkaku-ji, that might explain the
misconception. Keene writes in his book about the personality of
Yoshimasa and the way it probably differed from Yoshimitsu's. The
latter wanted a building, the kinkaku-ji, that would perpetuate his
legacy through the centuries to come. Yoshimasa on the other hand,
above all, wanted a building that reflected his personal taste. He
planned it thoroughly and had special rocks and plants removed from
temples and palace gardens in order to enhance the beauty of his
gardens at Higashiyama. He had certain features and even whole
buildings deconstructed and reconstructed because he didn't like it.
There is only one known account, according to Keene (sounds like a
broken record :), that Yoshimasa expressed sadness and wonder about
the poverty of the commoners or the famines that plagued Japan
during his reign. In any case, it didn't stop him from building very
expensive palaces (if I remember correctly the Hana no gosho and
others) or organising Sakura (cherry tree) viewings. Above all,
Ginkaku-ji was his retreat to where he retired from his position as
shogun and only returned to politics (not as shogun but acting as
one) when his son the ninth Ashikaga shogun, Yoshihisa, died and he
had no heir. Yoshimasa was very much into 'karamono' (Chinese things
and objects of art). In my humble opinion this probably was a reason
that he didn't mind being a vassal of or paying tribute to the
Chinese emperor. The other reason was (again my opinion) that he
revered his grandfather Yoshimitsu and his father Yoshinori, who
both were 'King of Japan' and vassals of the Middle Kingdom.

Maybe off-topic;

A curious event happened in 1863 when: "Hatred of Yoshimitsu was
especially strong during the years immediately before the Meiji
restoration of 1868, which had as one of it's professed goals the
return of secular authority to the emperor. In the second month of
the third year of Bunkyu (1863), nine men, followers of the Shinto
zealot Hirata Atsutane, broke into the Toji-in [a temple in Kyoto]
and removed the heads of the statues of the first three Ashikaga
shoguns: Takauji, Yoshiakira and Yoshimitsu. They then exposed the
heads on a bank of the Kamo river, following the common practice at
this time of 'patriots' exposing for all to see the heads of men
accused of being traitors. Beside the heads of the three shogun,
placards were set up enumerating the crimes of each. Yoshimitsu's
acceptance of the title of King of Japan made him the worst traitor
of all."

Now i'm tired

Nahless

>
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#6875 [2005-03-30 17:24:47]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- nahless <mr.ripley@...> wrote:

> I agree. The ginkaku-ji wasn't meant to be covered
> in silver. The
> name merely alludes to the Kinkaku-ji, that might
> explain the
> misconception.

I think it's a myth that even the Ginkakuji may at
times perpetuate, depending on who you ask. Apparently
another poster got a different answer than I did. But,
I still believe it's simply a comparison between the
two, since the buildings are so similar.

In the
> second month of
> the third year of Bunkyu (1863), nine men, followers
> of the Shinto
> zealot Hirata Atsutane, broke into the Toji-in [a
> temple in Kyoto]
> and removed the heads of the statues of the first
> three Ashikaga
> shoguns: Takauji, Yoshiakira and Yoshimitsu. They
> then exposed the
> heads on a bank of the Kamo river, following the
> common practice at
> this time of 'patriots' exposing for all to see the
> heads of men
> accused of being traitors. Beside the heads of the
> three shogun,
> placards were set up enumerating the crimes of each.
> Yoshimitsu's
> acceptance of the title of King of Japan made him
> the worst traitor
> of all."

This is also when Takauji becomes a villain in the
eyes of many Japanese, since he essentially
back-stabbed the imperial attempt to seize power from
the Kamakura bakufu. I do find it interesting that you
don't find any reference to Yoritomo's "head" being
stuck anywhere.



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#6877 [2005-03-30 17:33:29]

Re: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by Eric Messersmith, Ph.D.

An interesting "fact" about Takauji at this site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashikaga_Takauji
Not sure about the accuracy of this site anymore.
>
> From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
> Date: 2005/03/30 Wed PM 07:24:47 EST
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji
>
>
>
> --- nahless <mr.ripley@...> wrote:
>
> > I agree. The ginkaku-ji wasn't meant to be covered
> > in silver. The
> > name merely alludes to the Kinkaku-ji, that might
> > explain the
> > misconception.
>
> I think it's a myth that even the Ginkakuji may at
> times perpetuate, depending on who you ask. Apparently
> another poster got a different answer than I did. But,
> I still believe it's simply a comparison between the
> two, since the buildings are so similar.
>
> In the
> > second month of
> > the third year of Bunkyu (1863), nine men, followers
> > of the Shinto
> > zealot Hirata Atsutane, broke into the Toji-in [a
> > temple in Kyoto]
> > and removed the heads of the statues of the first
> > three Ashikaga
> > shoguns: Takauji, Yoshiakira and Yoshimitsu. They
> > then exposed the
> > heads on a bank of the Kamo river, following the
> > common practice at
> > this time of 'patriots' exposing for all to see the
> > heads of men
> > accused of being traitors. Beside the heads of the
> > three shogun,
> > placards were set up enumerating the crimes of each.
> > Yoshimitsu's
> > acceptance of the title of King of Japan made him
> > the worst traitor
> > of all."
>
> This is also when Takauji becomes a villain in the
> eyes of many Japanese, since he essentially
> back-stabbed the imperial attempt to seize power from
> the Kamakura bakufu. I do find it interesting that you
> don't find any reference to Yoritomo's "head" being
> stuck anywhere.
>
>
>
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Regards,

Eric Messersmith, Ph.D.

Institute for Asian Studies
Florida International University

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#6878 [2005-03-30 17:47:00]

RE: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by Haynes, A (Angus)

-----Original Message-----
From: Nate Ledbetter [mailto:ltdomer98@...]

>This is also when Takauji becomes a villain in the
>eyes of many Japanese, since he essentially
>back-stabbed the imperial attempt to seize power from
>the Kamakura bakufu. I do find it interesting that you
>don't find any reference to Yoritomo's "head" being
>stuck anywhere.

I can't quite understand why Takauji is thought of as such a villain. I
don't feel he ever really "back-stabbed" the imperial restoration. The
Kamakura Bakufu had grown weak and needed to be replaced, which Takauji
did, with a good deal of help from the Imperial Court & it's allies to
be fair... But after it was removed, Tajauji pretty much straight away
stepped in to the previous Bakufu's shoes and kept things moving much as
they had been before. It doesn't sound to me like he ever even pretended
to have any kind of Imperial restoration in mind, and I think most of
the other warriors around the nation also gave up on that idea pretty
quickly too, if they ever truly had it in the first place. It's not like
Go-Daigo proved to be any kind of great ruler or anything. The only
thing Go-Daigo and his administration seemed to do really well was anger
the warrior class...
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#6881 [2005-03-30 23:38:36]

Re: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji

by ltdomer98

--- "Eric Messersmith, Ph.D." <messerse@...>
wrote:
>
> An interesting "fact" about Takauji at this site.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashikaga_Takauji
> Not sure about the accuracy of this site anymore.

Was there a particular fact that you were pointing
out? Sorry, just a little confused.



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