> I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father,and
> actually came up with two different versions of events.Nobutora
>
> The first version goes roughly like this:
>
> in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father
> attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battleis
> won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,had
> and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
> drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
> in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).
>
> The second version goes like this:
>
> In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
> visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
> Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen
> plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forciblyof
> retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage"
> Yoshimoto.one
>
> I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
> specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than
> sources. does anyone know which is more likely?
> I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father,and
> actually came up with two different versions of events.Nobutora
>
> The first version goes roughly like this:
>
> in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father
> attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battleis
> won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on 6/4,had
> and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with his Ashigaru,
> drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
> in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).
>
> The second version goes like this:
>
> In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
> visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto, in
> Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingen
> plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forciblyof
> retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage"
> Yoshimoto.one
>
> I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from a
> specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more than
> sources. does anyone know which is more likely?---
> Nate,Um, thanks, I know, I've been there 6 times. I said it
> The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with
> gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
> Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji
> Temple????
> Yoshimoto was a big part in overthrowing Nobutora and helpingShingen to be the head of the clan!!!!!!!
>below, I did some minor research at the local
> Edy
>
>
> Kitsunowrote:To add slightly to the
> library, and found that most books basically give no info otherfind
> than "Shingen overthrew his father in a bloodless coup". I did
> one more books that went into more detail. It almost seemed to bea
> combination of the two theories, stating that After the attack onhe
> Unno Munetsuna, for some reason they went to Suruga, and
> unfortunately I couldnt read the key kanji in the key sentence, but
> it seemed to be something about Nobutora going to Yoshimoto to
> discuss the boarder between Kai and Suruga province, at which time
> is retired in favor of shingen. So it appears that Yoshimoto had6/4,
> some hand in it, but it still is pretty inconclusive.
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"> listowner@s...> wrote:
> > I have been researching exactly how Shingen overthrew his father,
> and
> > actually came up with two different versions of events.
> >
> > The first version goes roughly like this:
> >
> > in the 5th month of 1541, Harunobu (shingen) and his father
> Nobutora
> > attack Unno Munetsuna in Shinano. By the sixth month, the battle
> is
> > won, and Munetsuna flees the province. They depart for Kai on
> > and on the journey back, on 6/14, Shingen, along with hisAshigaru,
> > drive Nobutora off, and he was forced to flee to ImagawaYoshimoto,
> > in Suruga (Yoshimoto was married to one of Nobutora's daughters).in
> >
> > The second version goes like this:
> >
> > In the 6th month of 1541, Nobutora and Harunobu (shingen) went to
> > visit Nobutora's daughter, who was married to Imagawa Yoshimoto,
> > Suruga province. Little did Nobutora know, Yoshimoto and Shingena
> had
> > plotted against him. When they got there, Nobutora was forcibly
> > retired in favor of Shingen, and he was put under the "patronage"
> of
> > Yoshimoto.
> >
> > I am not sure why there are two versions, one seems to come from
> > specific historical record, maybe the other comes from more thanService.
> one
> > sources. does anyone know which is more likely?
>
>
>
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> Nate,http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3907.html
> The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
> Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji Temple????
> Edward Alexander wrote:Tony:
> > Nate,
> > The Kinkakuji temple(in Kyoto) is covered with
> gold.Go to www.pref.kyoto.jp.
> > Can you give me the location of the Ginkakuji
> Temple????
>
> http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3907.html
>
>
>
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> Sansom states that Ginkakuji was never covered inOkay, must have been somewhere besides Sansom. The
> silver foil,
> although there were plans to do so. Every source
> I've read (including
> the Japanese ones) echoes this-the Shogunate at the
> time simply did
> not have the money to follow through. When I've
> talked to the people
> who staff Ginkakuji they also state this (but they
> likely would even
> if it wasn't true...makes for a better sounding
> history!).
>
>
>
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> I believe it was such an exact replica because theThe Ginkakuji website states it was because he visited
> Shogun Yoshimasa
> thought very highly of his Grandfather Yoshimitsu
> (who built
> Kinkakuji, and is generally regarded as being the
> best of the
> Ashikaga Shoguns). He wanted to replicate his
> greatest work but in
> keeping with the idea of not putting himself over
> his ancestors
> planned to finish it in silver instead of gold.
> As you point out though, many times it's the better
> story that ends
> up becoming the "accepted history".
>You might want to read 'Yoshimasa and the silver pavilion' by
> --- kurotatsunoshiwrote:
>
> > I believe it was such an exact replica because the
> > Shogun Yoshimasa
> > thought very highly of his Grandfather Yoshimitsu
> > (who built
> > Kinkakuji, and is generally regarded as being the
> > best of the
> > Ashikaga Shoguns). He wanted to replicate his
> > greatest work but in
> > keeping with the idea of not putting himself over
> > his ancestors
> > planned to finish it in silver instead of gold.
> > As you point out though, many times it's the better
> > story that ends
> > up becoming the "accepted history".
>
> The Ginkakuji website states it was because he visited
> the Rokuonji (the official name of the Kinkakuji) on
> an inspection and decided to copy the design. Mentions
> nothing about covering it in silver, which I still
> find odd. When I can get on a computer that I can
> search in Japanese, I'll look more. I'd just like to
> see something besides Turnbull and "every source I've read"...
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> You might want to read 'Yoshimasa and the silverWow, this is a reply to an old post. When I first
> pavilion' by
> Donald Keene (Columbia University Press). This book
> is about
> (probably) the worst shogun in Japanese history,
> Ashikaga Yoshimasa,
> who had a great impact on Japanese culture as it is
> known today. He
> was a patron for many Japanese artists. Whether No,
> cha-no-yu,
> calligraphy or Waka (for which Yoshimasa seems to
> have had a
> talent). The book doesn't mention that the
> Ginkaku-ji was supposed
> to be decorated (or covered) with silver. The name
> (according to
> Keene) merely is a 'reference' (not sure about this
> term) to
> Ashikaga Yoshimitsu's Kinkaku-ji.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Schadel" <ayamechiba@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 1:15 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji
>
>
> "Actually, last time I went to the Ginkakuji (in June)
> I asked--as I thought, and as Prof Keene says, it's
> merely a distinction between itself and the
> "Kinkakuji" , Rokuon-ji. There never were any plans to
> cover it in silver, much to the contrary of what
> guidebooks and Mr. Turnbull will tell you."
>
> During my last visit to Japan in January, I asked my wife to call
> Ginkakuji and they said that yes, there were plans to cover it in
> silver (and went on to give the standard background). This may be a
> case of them giving the answer they think the asker may want.
> Short of someone uncovering a contemporary document that specifically
> mentions plans for covering it in silver foil, I think we'll never know
> for sure.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Join the 2005 'Samurai Fiction' contest:
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/writcon.html
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> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually, last time I went to the Ginkakuji (in June)I agree. The ginkaku-ji wasn't meant to be covered in silver. The
> I asked--as I thought, and as Prof Keene says, it's
> merely a distinction between itself and the
> "Kinkakuji" , Rokuon-ji. There never were any plans to
> cover it in silver, much to the contrary of what
> guidebooks and Mr. Turnbull will tell you.
>
> Nate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> I agree. The ginkaku-ji wasn't meant to be coveredI think it's a myth that even the Ginkakuji may at
> in silver. The
> name merely alludes to the Kinkaku-ji, that might
> explain the
> misconception.
> second month ofThis is also when Takauji becomes a villain in the
> the third year of Bunkyu (1863), nine men, followers
> of the Shinto
> zealot Hirata Atsutane, broke into the Toji-in [a
> temple in Kyoto]
> and removed the heads of the statues of the first
> three Ashikaga
> shoguns: Takauji, Yoshiakira and Yoshimitsu. They
> then exposed the
> heads on a bank of the Kamo river, following the
> common practice at
> this time of 'patriots' exposing for all to see the
> heads of men
> accused of being traitors. Beside the heads of the
> three shogun,
> placards were set up enumerating the crimes of each.
> Yoshimitsu's
> acceptance of the title of King of Japan made him
> the worst traitor
> of all."
>Regards,
> From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>
> Date: 2005/03/30 Wed PM 07:24:47 EST
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Ginkakuji
>
>
>
> --- nahless <mr.ripley@...> wrote:
>
> > I agree. The ginkaku-ji wasn't meant to be covered
> > in silver. The
> > name merely alludes to the Kinkaku-ji, that might
> > explain the
> > misconception.
>
> I think it's a myth that even the Ginkakuji may at
> times perpetuate, depending on who you ask. Apparently
> another poster got a different answer than I did. But,
> I still believe it's simply a comparison between the
> two, since the buildings are so similar.
>
> In the
> > second month of
> > the third year of Bunkyu (1863), nine men, followers
> > of the Shinto
> > zealot Hirata Atsutane, broke into the Toji-in [a
> > temple in Kyoto]
> > and removed the heads of the statues of the first
> > three Ashikaga
> > shoguns: Takauji, Yoshiakira and Yoshimitsu. They
> > then exposed the
> > heads on a bank of the Kamo river, following the
> > common practice at
> > this time of 'patriots' exposing for all to see the
> > heads of men
> > accused of being traitors. Beside the heads of the
> > three shogun,
> > placards were set up enumerating the crimes of each.
> > Yoshimitsu's
> > acceptance of the title of King of Japan made him
> > the worst traitor
> > of all."
>
> This is also when Takauji becomes a villain in the
> eyes of many Japanese, since he essentially
> back-stabbed the imperial attempt to seize power from
> the Kamakura bakufu. I do find it interesting that you
> don't find any reference to Yoritomo's "head" being
> stuck anywhere.
>
>
>
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>
>This is also when Takauji becomes a villain in theI can't quite understand why Takauji is thought of as such a villain. I
>eyes of many Japanese, since he essentially
>back-stabbed the imperial attempt to seize power from
>the Kamakura bakufu. I do find it interesting that you
>don't find any reference to Yoritomo's "head" being
>stuck anywhere.
>Was there a particular fact that you were pointing
> An interesting "fact" about Takauji at this site.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashikaga_Takauji
> Not sure about the accuracy of this site anymore.