A wilderness of mirrors

I view the ninja somewhere between 'military intelligence' (I
know those with a military background often doubt that such a
thing exists) and 'special ops'.

(The post title comes from J.J Angelton's reference to CIA
counter-intelligence ops)

Reading 'between the lines', did not the run-up to Nagashino
involve a plot to betray the Tokugawa from within? Presumably
Takeda 'ninja' were working the subversion operation, and
Tokugawa 'ninja' were working counter-insurgency? Or am I
being over-romantic?

Such being the case, the Tokugawa managed to manouvre the
Takeda into overplaying their hand, as it were, which might be
counted as a highly successful ninja operation, based on sound
intelligence rather than assassinations, wall-climbings, etc.

Likewise the eventual seppuku of Tokugawa Hideyasu was
brought about by a 'plot' that was believed unlikely (by Sadler,
anyway), but was considered a necessary expedient by Ieyasu to
secure the Oda-Tokugawa alliance. Might this not have been a
plot to destabilise the two, and where would history have gone
if they had fought each other?

Again, as Paul pointed out an age ago (hi Paul) there's a scene
in Kagemusha where 3 peasants (in the employ of the Oda and
the Tokugawa) are watching 'Shingen' review his troops and are
convinced it is he, which is the report that goes back to HQ.

No doubt Hollywood would have them attempt to assassinate
Shingen with blow darts, exploding geisha, or something of that
ilk.

Thomas.

--- Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:

> I view the ninja somewhere between 'military
> intelligence' (I
> know those with a military background often doubt
> that such a
> thing exists) and 'special ops'.

That strikes me as fairly accurate. And as far as MI
goes, I resemble that remark!

>
> Reading 'between the lines', did not the run-up to
> Nagashino
> involve a plot to betray the Tokugawa from within?
> Presumably
> Takeda 'ninja' were working the subversion
> operation, and
> Tokugawa 'ninja' were working counter-insurgency? Or
> am I
> being over-romantic?

There may have been intel/counterintell involved (GOD
I would love to find data on that...drool) but
essentially it wasn't a "ninja", but a well placed
Tokugawa administrator who had agreed to set a fire
and open the gates to the Takeda army.

> Such being the case, the Tokugawa managed to
> manouvre the
> Takeda into overplaying their hand, as it were,
> which might be
> counted as a highly successful ninja operation,
> based on sound
> intelligence rather than assassinations,
> wall-climbings, etc.

Not really. The Takeda executed a tactical withdrawal,
once they saw they couldn't take Okazaki like they had
hoped. Katsuyori simply didn't want to leave empty
handed, so they attacked Yoshida-jo first, then
Nagashino. At Yoshida-jo, it was too well defended for
a quick siege, and Katsuyori was afraid of the
reinforcements coming up from Nobunaga. Nagashino,
however, was too good to pass up, with the personal
history between the Takeda and the keeper of the
castle for the Tokugawa. Katsuyori could have simply
retreated back into Kai--he wasn't "maneuvered" into
fighting at Nagashino by Ieyasu, per se.

> Again, as Paul pointed out an age ago (hi Paul)
> there's a scene
> in Kagemusha where 3 peasants (in the employ of the
> Oda and
> the Tokugawa) are watching 'Shingen' review his
> troops and are
> convinced it is he, which is the report that goes
> back to HQ.

2 peasants and a monk, actually. THESE are true
"shinobi no mono" or "kusa". I'd LOVE to do research
on the intell techniques of the sengoku, but man,
would I have to dig for resources...maybe this new
Rekishi Gunzo K is talking about...

> No doubt Hollywood would have them attempt to
> assassinate
> Shingen with blow darts, exploding geisha, or
> something of that
> ilk.

Exploding Geisha? I'd pay Y1500 for that ticket!



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Exploding Geisha? I'd pay Y1500 for that ticket!

You litterally took the words right out of my mouth!

> Exploding Geisha? I'd pay Y1500 for that ticket!

During WWII the Brits wanted to take out some lock gates in
France. The lock was too close to a civilian site to bomb, too
heavily defended for the Resistance to attack.

At the Royal College of Art in London, a special department was
working on disguises - timers that looked like pens, and, I kid
you not, anti-personnel mines that looked and smelled like
cowpats.

MI attained drawings of the locks, and the guys at the RC saw
that the canal was topped up by a river, the overflow sluiced
through a tunnel beneath the lock itself.

Solution: A dead dog was packed with explosives and a
pressure switch, and parachuted to the resistance, who dumped
it in the canel above the lock. The dog floated down, under the
nose of the guards, was sucked into the sluice where the water
pressure triggered the switch and bang! Success!

(Not sure about the exploding cowpats, though)

Thomas.

> There may have been intel/counterintell involved (GOD
> I would love to find data on that...drool) but
> essentially it wasn't a "ninja", but a well placed
> Tokugawa administrator who had agreed to set a fire
> and open the gates to the Takeda army.

Ah! but who suborned the Administrator?

But I know, I know ... I think the reality is a lot more drab and
dreary than we would like, with the occasional flashes of
adventure!

But I agree - Sengoku intel/counterintel ... mmm!

> 2 peasants and a monk, actually. THESE are true
> "shinobi no mono" or "kusa". I'd LOVE to do research
> on the intell techniques of the sengoku, but man,
> would I have to dig for resources...maybe this new
> Rekishi Gunzo K is talking about...

In the Cold War days wasn't 'journalist' the
common cover? I suppose a Tendai Monk walking the
streets of Prague or Vienna to the Harry Lime theme
would have stuck out a bit...

> Exploding Geisha? I'd pay Y1500 for that ticket!

And Tom Cruise could play Shingen!

You're quite right.I think the Takeda employed a spy but when they arrived at the field the traitor was decapitated.(not sure if it's about Nagashino or Nagshino castle siege or another siege of the Takeda against Tokugawa).

Edy



Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:I view the ninja somewhere between 'military intelligence' (I
know those with a military background often doubt that such a
thing exists) and 'special ops'.

(The post title comes from J.J Angelton's reference to CIA
counter-intelligence ops)

Reading 'between the lines', did not the run-up to Nagashino
involve a plot to betray the Tokugawa from within? Presumably
Takeda 'ninja' were working the subversion operation, and
Tokugawa 'ninja' were working counter-insurgency? Or am I
being over-romantic?

Such being the case, the Tokugawa managed to manouvre the
Takeda into overplaying their hand, as it were, which might be
counted as a highly successful ninja operation, based on sound
intelligence rather than assassinations, wall-climbings, etc.

Likewise the eventual seppuku of Tokugawa Hideyasu was
brought about by a 'plot' that was believed unlikely (by Sadler,
anyway), but was considered a necessary expedient by Ieyasu to
secure the Oda-Tokugawa alliance. Might this not have been a
plot to destabilise the two, and where would history have gone
if they had fought each other?

Again, as Paul pointed out an age ago (hi Paul) there's a scene
in Kagemusha where 3 peasants (in the employ of the Oda and
the Tokugawa) are watching 'Shingen' review his troops and are
convinced it is he, which is the report that goes back to HQ.

No doubt Hollywood would have them attempt to assassinate
Shingen with blow darts, exploding geisha, or something of that
ilk.

Thomas.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree.Tom Cruise would be a perfect Shingen.That reminds me.Is available an accurate picture of Shingen?????

Edy


Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:> There may have been intel/counterintell involved (GOD

> I would love to find data on that...drool) but
> essentially it wasn't a "ninja", but a well placed
> Tokugawa administrator who had agreed to set a fire
> and open the gates to the Takeda army.

Ah! but who suborned the Administrator?

But I know, I know ... I think the reality is a lot more drab and
dreary than we would like, with the occasional flashes of
adventure!

But I agree - Sengoku intel/counterintel ... mmm!

> 2 peasants and a monk, actually. THESE are true
> "shinobi no mono" or "kusa". I'd LOVE to do research
> on the intell techniques of the sengoku, but man,
> would I have to dig for resources...maybe this new
> Rekishi Gunzo K is talking about...

In the Cold War days wasn't 'journalist' the
common cover? I suppose a Tendai Monk walking the
streets of Prague or Vienna to the Harry Lime theme
would have stuck out a bit...

> Exploding Geisha? I'd pay Y1500 for that ticket!

And Tom Cruise could play Shingen!





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--- Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:

> Ah! but who suborned the Administrator?

I doubt it was someone dressed in black pajamas. Of
course there were covert messages between Katsuyori
and said administrator. Incidentally, it's killing me
that I can't remember his name. For some reason Ota
Yasusuke sticks in my head, but that's wrong--Yasusuke
was a Hojo retainer. I'm currently not able to get to
my crutch, the Turnbull book on Nagashino, and when
the first hit on Google that comes up is a report that
I myself wrote (and neglected to mention the name),
I'm out of luck.

> But I know, I know ... I think the reality is a lot
> more drab and
> dreary than we would like, with the occasional
> flashes of
> adventure!

Generally I find reality more interesting. I'd rather
read about how someone bribed the maid of Lord
so-and-so to gain access to a room where they
overheard x conversation, then snuck out dressed as a
monk and such, than to hear some silly story about
sneaking in dressed in black pajamas, killing guards
with magical incantations, then disappearing in a
cloud of smoke. Bah.

> In the Cold War days wasn't 'journalist' the
> common cover? I suppose a Tendai Monk walking the
> streets of Prague or Vienna to the Harry Lime theme
> would have stuck out a bit...

Possibly, yeah. However, speaking as a member of the
US Intel community, the "journalist" cover is frowned
upon, though it was used. Too easy to get into
trouble. At least you didn't say Red Cross worker or
Priest--both of those are right out.

> > Exploding Geisha? I'd pay Y1500 for that ticket!
>
> And Tom Cruise could play Shingen!

You're trying to give me a heart attack, aren't you?



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--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> I agree.Tom Cruise would be a perfect Shingen.That
> reminds me.Is available an accurate picture of
> Shingen?????
>
> Edy

http://www.samurai.de/Home_D/Takeda_Shingen/takeda_shingen.html

http://www.kiku.com/electric_samurai/cobweb_castle/image/shingen.jpg


http://www.ninpo.org/picturearchive/historicalportraits/takedashingen.html



3 different images of him.

And please don't say things like "Tom Cruise would be
a perfect Shingen"...my heart can't take it.






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--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> And please don't say things like "Tom Cruise would
> be
> a perfect Shingen"...my heart can't take it.

Watanabe Ken, however...



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Can we have pee wee herman in stead then

lolololololololol

Paul


--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:



And please don't say things like "Tom Cruise would be
a perfect Shingen"...my heart can't take it.






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HI

you now this scene in Kagemusha is maybe one of the
most accurate depictions of ninja ever in a film.

you have 3 guys dressed in every day cloths, I think
one is even a priest.

Not a single black suit anywhere. Its fantastic.

Just wish people would accept this as fact and not
just some guys in a movie scene watching some
soldiers. These were real ninja dressed as real ninja.

Ohh well off to watch Ninja 3 the domination for my
sins (the sakura killers)

paul



--- Thomas Davidson <tom.davidson@...> wrote:


Again, as Paul pointed out an age ago (hi Paul)
there's a scene
in Kagemusha where 3 peasants (in the employ of the
Oda and
the Tokugawa) are watching 'Shingen' review his troops
and are
convinced it is he, which is the report that goes back
to HQ.




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What a cast! ;)

>
> > And please don't say things like "Tom Cruise would
> > be
> > a perfect Shingen"...my heart can't take it.
>
> Watanabe Ken, however...
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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I didn't to say he would be a ""perfect" Shingen.I mean,he could be Takeda Shingen in a movie.No one will ever be like Shingen.No person will ever be a military genius like he was.Thanx for the pictures.

Edy

P.S.:In one picture,Shingen is not wearing the armour.Are the Daimyo so fat when they are not wearing the armor????



Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> I agree.Tom Cruise would be a perfect Shingen.That
> reminds me.Is available an accurate picture of
> Shingen?????
>
> Edy

http://www.samurai.de/Home_D/Takeda_Shingen/takeda_shingen.html

http://www.kiku.com/electric_samurai/cobweb_castle/image/shingen.jpg


http://www.ninpo.org/picturearchive/historicalportraits/takedashingen.html



3 different images of him.

And please don't say things like "Tom Cruise would be
a perfect Shingen"...my heart can't take it.






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--- Edward Alexander <edyhiphop@...> wrote:

> I didn't to say he would be a ""perfect" Shingen.I
> mean,he could be Takeda Shingen in a movie.No one
> will ever be like Shingen.No person will ever be a
> military genius like he was.Thanx for the pictures.
>
> Edy
>
> P.S.:In one picture,Shingen is not wearing the
> armour.Are the Daimyo so fat when they are not
> wearing the armor????

If he can't pull off being Irish in "Far and Away", I
HIGHLY doubt he'd be any good as a Japanese, be it
Takeda Shingen or Takeda Kumiko.

As for being fat, that's the clothes--just the way
they are drawn.



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Hi Nate -

Tom:
Ah! but who suborned the Administrator?

Nate:
I doubt it was someone dressed in black pajamas ...
Generally I find reality more interesting.

Tom:
Absolutely. The psychology is more interesting than the
pyrotechnics (although the technique/technical stuff is fun).
Ahh ... the manipulation of human weakness! Our anonymous
Tokugawa Administrator - was it greed? blackmail? jealousy?

In fact my interest in the samurai as such is to strip away the
'warrior myth' - the reality IS far more fantastic, in its way,
than the legend. The development of swordsmanship becomes
meaningless (to me) when those involved are demigods. When
they are simply men ... then that's something else.

Nate:
I'd rather read about how someone bribed the maid of Lord
so-and-so ...

Tom:
I'm a sucker for the Le Carre style myself ... the steady
collation of snippets of info, the 'necessary pressure' applied
to find out that last piece of the jigsaw ... (sorry, I'm
waxing lyrical again)

Tom:
And Tom Cruise could play Shingen!

Nate:
You're trying to give me a heart attack, aren't you?

Tom:
Rats! Have I blown my cover? Can you see my pajamas?

Thomas

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> As for being fat, that's the clothes--just the way
> they are drawn.

Well, dont forget, this pic:
http://www.ninpo.org/picturearchive/historicalportraits/takedashingen.
html

Is thought to not even be a picture of Shingen at all. Cant remember
who it is thought to be though.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Davidson"
wrote:

> In fact my interest in the samurai as such is to strip away the
> 'warrior myth' - the reality IS far more fantastic, in its way,
> than the legend. The development of swordsmanship becomes
> meaningless (to me) when those involved are demigods. When
> they are simply men ... then that's something else.

I have always thought the reality is so much more amazing than any
fiction. i guess 100 years of civil war truly does work a certain
social darwinism. It took almost 80 years after the Onin war for
someone like Nobunaga to come along and start busting heads and
taking names. The treachery, strategy, epic battles, and reality of
the Sengoku is probably more interesting and epic than most fiction
books could ever hope for - although LOTR is way up there :P

You'd have to work backwards into ancient history to find much
comparable, where war was everyday life for entire lifetimes.

> the Sengoku is probably more interesting and epic than most

fiction books could ever hope for...

From the swordsmanship angle the Sengoku is, I think, THE era,
and certainly produced the great names (Musashi aside).

I also think it far more pragmatic in outlook. The Sengoku
Samurai touches the depths as well as the heights, and here we
find the best and the worst ... and most of the 'names' have a bit
of both about them, which to me adds the depth and colour to the
tales.

I can't remember precisely the where or when, but there was a
time when Ieyasu went to visit Hideyoshi(?) and a number of
Hideyoshi's women were the hostages of the Tokugawa.

Sakai used to go and sit with them, chat and pass the time to
ease their nerves, meanwhile outside Honda was stacking
firewood against the walls, ready to torch the place if anything
should happen to his lord. What days!

Thomas

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Davidson"
wrote:

> I can't remember precisely the where or when, but there was a
> time when Ieyasu went to visit Hideyoshi(?) and a number of
> Hideyoshi's women were the hostages of the Tokugawa.
>
> Sakai used to go and sit with them, chat and pass the time to
> ease their nerves, meanwhile outside Honda was stacking
> firewood against the walls, ready to torch the place if anything
> should happen to his lord. What days!

It happened (I believe) in 1586, when Hideyoshi was having all of the
Daimyo come to him to essentially swear allegiance. Ieyasu was the
only Daimyo who refused the "inviation", so Hideyoshi was stuck with
a choice - Does he attack Ieyasu, or find another way to get him
to "submit"? Hideyoshi's choice was to send his own mother to
Ieyasu, essentially as a hostage. Today I was watching a TV show
that I had taped a few days ago called - "Kono Hito o Miyo - Toyotomi
Hideyoshi" which covered the incedent. It basicaly said that
Hideyoshi was a master at reading people. It stated that Hideyoshi
knew that Ieyasu was taken from his own mother at a very young age,
and that because of this he would take care of Hideyoshi's mother.
The incedent you mentioned happened while his mother was at
Hamamatsu, although the TV show didnt mention it - it was brought up
on the Samurai Forum a few days ago. Basically, Ieyasu showed up at
Osaka castle, and everyone saw this as a significant event showing
that Ieyasu was submitting to Hideyoshi. So Hideyoshi basically won
without fighting, and his mother came back without a scratch.

Personally, I dont understand the reason the the other daimyo didnt
see Hideyoshi's mother going to Hamamatsu as Hideyoshi submitting to
Ieyasu, particularly because it was very well known how greatly
Hideyoshi cared about his mother....

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Is thought to not even be a picture of Shingen at
> all. Cant remember
> who it is thought to be though.
>
>

Really? Hmm. I just typed in 'Takeda Shingen' to
google photo search, and picked the few I'd seen
before. I'd seen that one before ID'd as him. Hmm.



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Really? Hmm. I just typed in 'Takeda Shingen' to
> google photo search, and picked the few I'd seen
> before. I'd seen that one before ID'd as him. Hmm.

I'm sure SOMEONE here knows what I am talking about. I read it in
one of the books that I dont have with me a few years ago, and
someone else had mentioned they had heard it to, and even went so far
as to give the name of the person it is thought to be. Again, let us
rely on strength in numbers - one of the 902 people here must know.

That's the chap!

BTW - Is there another English-print bio. of Ieyasu besides
Sadler's?

Thomas

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Davidson"
wrote:

> That's the chap!
>
> BTW - Is there another English-print bio. of Ieyasu besides
> Sadler's?
>
> Thomas

Totman, Conrad. "Tokugawa Ieyasu, SHOGUN" Union City, California:
Heian International Inc., 1990

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- Thomas Davidson wrote:
>
>
> > Ah! but who suborned the Administrator?
>
> I doubt it was someone dressed in black pajamas. Of
> course there were covert messages between Katsuyori
> and said administrator. Incidentally, it's killing me
> that I can't remember his name. For some reason Ota
> Yasusuke sticks in my head, but that's wrong--Yasusuke
> was a Hojo retainer. I'm currently not able to get to
> my crutch, the Turnbull book on Nagashino, and when
> the first hit on Google that comes up is a report that
> I myself wrote (and neglected to mention the name),
> I'm out of luck.
>
> > But I know, I know ... I think the reality is a lot
> > more drab and
> > dreary than we would like, with the occasional
> > flashes of
> > adventure!
>
> Generally I find reality more interesting. I'd rather
> read about how someone bribed the maid of Lord
> so-and-so to gain access to a room where they
> overheard x conversation, then snuck out dressed as a
> monk and such, than to hear some silly story about
> sneaking in dressed in black pajamas, killing guards
> with magical incantations, then disappearing in a
> cloud of smoke. Bah.

Along the lines of Sengoku spies, I came across an interesting bit on
Mori Motonari and his use of spies. In 1554, he used spies to spread
rumors about a certain Era Fusahide, who was a skilled and powerful
vassal of Sue Harukata, saying that he was intending to turn against
Sue, and join the Mori. Then Mori Motonari sent a
letter "discussing" an offer to join the Mori to Fusahide, which was
intercepted by Sue Harukata. With this letter and the rumors spread
by Mori spies, Harukata had Fusahide excecuted, and this took a
strong ally of Sue Harukata out of the picture for Motonari.

Found it. Makes sense it would pop up when you mouse over the pic on
Shingen's bio in the Famous Samurai section of the Samurai Archives :P
The pic is thought to possibly be a painting of a Hatakeyama lord
from Noto province.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
> wrote:
>
> > Really? Hmm. I just typed in 'Takeda Shingen' to
> > google photo search, and picked the few I'd seen
> > before. I'd seen that one before ID'd as him. Hmm.
>
> I'm sure SOMEONE here knows what I am talking about. I read it in
> one of the books that I dont have with me a few years ago, and
> someone else had mentioned they had heard it to, and even went so

far

> as to give the name of the person it is thought to be. Again, let

us

> rely on strength in numbers - one of the 902 people here must know.