Saito Dousan, Oil Merchant...?

It has always seemed 'common knowledge' that Saito Dousan was an oil
merchant who became Daimyo (or at least that is how it has always
seemed) but I'm reading a general history of the sengoku period that
claims that all of the 'oil merchant' stories attributed to Dousan
are actually from his father, and Dousan was already a Samurai upon
birth:

(A quick and easy translation from Japanese - 戦国時代 by 金谷俊一郎
2003 p.50-51)

"Saito Dousan's father Shinzaemonjou was a monk at the myoukakuji
temple in Kyoto, however he gave up the priesthood and married,
becoming the son in law of an oil merchant. During his travels as an
oil merchant himself, he ran into a friend from his days as a monk at
myoukakuji, who was now an abbot at the Jouzaiji temple in Mino
province. The abbot was a relative of the Nagai clan, which was
serving the Shugo of Mino, the Toki clan. Through the abbot,
Shinzaemonjou gained employment with Nagai Nagahiro, and quickly rose
through the Nagai ranks, eventually taking the surname of Nagai. In
1525, he assisted Nagahiro in subduing both the Toki clan (the Shugo)
and the Saito clan (the Shugo-dai) in a coup. In 1533, Dousan, who
at this time was known as Nagai Shinkurou Norihide, succeeded his
father, and killed his father's benefactor, Nagai Nagahiro, and took
possesion of Inabayama castle from him."

Is it too much to ask for an english source or two?? :P

One website says: "The castle was once called Inabayama Castle. The
area has been a strategic point for centuries given its close
proximity to Sekigahara, a mountain pass through which trade and
communication routes link eastern and western Japan. Saito Dosan, a
onetime resident of Mt. Kinka, once said "If you control Sekigahara,
you control Japan." Taken by Nagai Sinzaemon in 1525 his retainer
Saito Dosan usurped him in 1542 and ruled the area until Yoshiatsu,
Saito's son, killed his father in a battle on the banks of the Nagara
River." (http://www.asahi-u.ac.jp/kagai/kokusai/gifuchina/gifu-
eng/history.htm)

However the history book I'm reading seems to be saying that his
father was Nagai Shinzaemon, and I cant find any other sources to
confirm or deny this, or the fact that it was dousan's father, and
not dousan himself who was the oil merchant.

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 06:36:46 -0000, Kitsunoさん wrote:

>It has always seemed 'common knowledge' that Saito Dousan was an oil
>merchant who became Daimyo (or at least that is how it has always
>seemed) but I'm reading a general history of the sengoku period that
>claims that all of the 'oil merchant' stories attributed to Dousan
>are actually from his father, and Dousan was already a Samurai upon
>birth:

Good luck with this one! There seems to be a lot of conflicting
information on Dousan. This "Two Generation Theory" (二代説) is gainin
g more momentum recently, I think. The common knowledge about
Dousan, while older are more established, is likely to be wrong, in
my opinion.

>(A quick and easy translation from Japanese - 戦国時代 by 金谷俊一郎
>2003 p.50-51)

>"Saito Dousan's father Shinzaemonjou

This is likely to be Shinzaemon-no-jou, but it can be very hard to
be sure.

>at this time was known as Nagai Shinkurou Norihide, succeeded his

Dousan had a ton of names. If you are looking at this one, 長井新九郎
利政, it would be Norimasa, not Norihide

>Is it too much to ask for an english source or two?? :P

It probably is - which is, I would guess, why you make the English
sources. :) But if you put "dosan oil father" (without the quotes)
into Google, a few sites pop up, including this one:
http://www.sengoku-expo.net/text/person/E/054.html

>However the history book I'm reading seems to be saying that his
>father was Nagai Shinzaemon, and I cant find any other sources to
>confirm or deny this, or the fact that it was dousan's father, and
>not dousan himself who was the oil merchant.

This is probably because historians (as a group) are in the middle of
revising the accepted theory. Just give it about 10 years or so and
things should be settled by then. :)

For now I personally am convinced of the Two Generation Theory, but
unfortunately they don't make me the arbitor of these things....


--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:

>
> Good luck with this one! There seems to be a lot of conflicting
> information on Dousan. This "Two Generation Theory" (二代説) is

gainin

> g more momentum recently, I think. The common knowledge about
> Dousan, while older are more established, is likely to be wrong, in
> my opinion.
>
> >(A quick and easy translation from Japanese - 戦国時代 by 金谷俊賚
> >2003 p.50-51)
>
> >"Saito Dousan's father Shinzaemonjou
> This is likely to be Shinzaemon-no-jou, but it can be very hard to
> be sure.

(Your Japanese didnt come out in the post for me, but anyway) that
occured to me, but the furigana was included, and left out the 'no'
for: 新左衛門尉

> >at this time was known as Nagai Shinkurou Norihide, succeeded his
> Dousan had a ton of names. If you are looking at this one, 長羶袈縅> 利政, it would be Norimasa, not Norihide

This is clearly Norihide, and has the furigana to prove it :D 規秀

>
> >Is it too much to ask for an english source or two?? :P
> It probably is - which is, I would guess, why you make the English
> sources. :) But if you put "dosan oil father" (without the quotes)
> into Google, a few sites pop up, including this one:
> http://www.sengoku-expo.net/text/person/E/054.html
>
> >However the history book I'm reading seems to be saying that his
> >father was Nagai Shinzaemon, and I cant find any other sources to
> >confirm or deny this, or the fact that it was dousan's father, and
> >not dousan himself who was the oil merchant.
>
> This is probably because historians (as a group) are in the middle

of

> revising the accepted theory. Just give it about 10 years or so and
> things should be settled by then. :)

And I was hoping to put together a Dousan biography today... :( Guess
I could make it complicated and cover the different theories...

> For now I personally am convinced of the Two Generation Theory, but
> unfortunately they don't make me the arbitor of these things....
>
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...

Well, it seems that none of the kanji I posted came out, even though
I'm using a Japanese computer in Japan, but for the heck of it, I'll
try one more time:

V左衛門尉　SHINZAEMON(NO)JOU
‹KG@NORIHIDE

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:51:25 -0000, Kitsunoさん wrote:

>Well, it seems that none of the kanji I posted came out, even though
>I'm using a Japanese computer in Japan, but for the heck of it, I'll
>try one more time:
>
>新左衛門尉　SHINZAEMON(NO)JOU
>規秀　NORIHIDE

Ah - I see now. Yes this is Norihide for sure. The name I posted (I
hope you can see it this time) was 利政. Dousan had so many names -
I didn't know Norihide 規秀. Thanks!



--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

I have a question for you - I've seen the furigana reading for Oda
Nobunaga's childhood name as both Kippoushi and Kitsuhoushi... Which
do you think is correct? Or is this another mystery lost to time
like the true 'pronunciation' of Nobuo/Nobukatsu?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>
> On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 13:51:25 -0000, Kitsuno､ｵ､� wrote:
> >Well, it seems that none of the kanji I posted came out, even
though
> >I'm using a Japanese computer in Japan, but for the heck of it,
I'll
> >try one more time:
> >
> >ｿｷｺｸｱﾒﾌ邁ﾓ｡｡SHINZAEMON(NO)JOU
> >ｵｬｽｨ｡｡NORIHIDE
>
> Ah - I see now. Yes this is Norihide for sure. The name I posted (I
> hope you can see it this time) was ﾍ�ﾀｯ. Dousan had so many names -
> I didn't know Norihide ｵｬｽｨ. Thanks!
>
>
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...

On Sat, 07 Aug 2004 03:24:22 -0000, Kitsunoさん wrote:

>I have a question for you - I've seen the furigana reading for Oda
>Nobunaga's childhood name as both Kippoushi and Kitsuhoushi... Which
>do you think is correct? Or is this another mystery lost to time
>like the true 'pronunciation' of Nobuo/Nobukatsu?

In my recollection I don't think I've ever seen "Kitsuhoushi" きつほう
し, although I have seen it rendered as "Kichihoushi" きちほうし. The
first character of the name is 吉 which is "kichi" all by itself.

I think that in a lot of cases we just can't be sure how the names
were actually pronounced. This may indeed be one of them.

I personally go with Kippoushi for Nobunaga. But this isn't really
based on anything other than my sense that the more serious works on
Nobunaga seem to go with Kippoushi. For instancy my copy of the
ShinChou KouKi 信長公記 uses Kippoushi.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> For instancy my
> copy of the
> ShinChou KouKi �������� uses Kippoushi.

Jay--

Any leads on where I could find a copy? I'm assuming
there aren't any translations floating around.

Nate



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On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 06:01:26 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:

>
>--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:
>
>> For instancy my
>> copy of the
>> ShinChou KouKi ソョトケク�ュ uses Kippoushi.
>
>Jay--
>
>Any leads on where I could find a copy? I'm assuming
>there aren't any translations floating around.
>

For a while there I was working on a private translation myself,
though before I got too far into it real life got in the way. I've
never seen a full translation into English. I still have plans to
continue my private translation - "someday". :)

In Japanese, there are a few versions on the web. The one I like the
most is the one at http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/gutoku2/kouki.html
Interestingly, in translating the work into modern Japanese, that site
uses both きちほうし　and きっぽうし in different places.

As for harcopy, I have ISBN 4-404-02493-2. The ISBN may be more
convenient than the title when you're looking on Amazon or bookstores.
The title is just "信長公記". It is annotated by Kuwata Tadachika 桑田
忠親.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> As for harcopy, I have ISBN 4-404-02493-2. The ISBN
> may be more
> convenient than the title when you're looking on
> Amazon or bookstores.
> The title is just "$B?.D98x5-(B". It is annotated
> by Kuwata Tadachika $B7,ED(B
> $BCi?F(B.
>

Thanks, Jay! I'll start with the online copy, and go
from there.

Nate



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:

> I think that in a lot of cases we just can't be sure how the names
> were actually pronounced. This may indeed be one of them.

True, I was reading that the correct readings for a lot of the names
were found in portugese diaries and other paperwork from the 16th
century, because the names were written phoenetically. I seem to
remember that one of the names they dont know how it was 'spelled'
(for lack of a better term) was Nobunaga's son Nobuo/Nobukatsu.

Hi Folks,

Okay I have what is hopefully a simple problem. Every time some one
posts kanji/kana, my machine coughs, and presents me with meaningless
junk:-(

I've had a look around the net for a solution but to date this has been
a bit of a disaster. Firstly I'm nearly blind (I use a text enlarger and
speech out package), and secondly "computers, aren't they just glorified
type writers? Er well, you see the problem...

Any "simple" solutions?

Yours in frustration

Dean

http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Okay I have what is hopefully a simple problem.
> Every time some one
> posts kanji/kana, my machine coughs, and presents me
> with meaningless
> junk:-(
>
>
> Any "simple" solutions?

This is assuming you are using a PC:

You should be able to left click on the text of the
email, and a menu will pop up--go to "Encoding" and
click on it. It will show various encoding...probably
set to "Western European". If Japanese isn't shown
there, go to "more", then click on "Japanese-Auto
Select"...that should change the encoding you read the
email through, to allow kanji to be read. It will
still show the English, though sometimes I forget to
change things back, and I'll see random kanji through
other pages.

If you can't find the "Japanese-Auto Select", you may
have to activate it through your control panel.



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All--

I've uploaded three folders of photos to the Group
website. You can take a look at


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/

and click on "photos".

New photos are in folders:

Kusunoki and Nikko pics
Kyoto Pics
Miyajima Pics

Kusunoki Masashige was the "loyal retainer" of Emperor
Go-Daigo, and the pics of him are from the statue
outside the Imperial Palace. Nikko is the final
resting place of Tokugawa Ieyasu and his grandson,
Iemitsu, the first and third Tokugawa Shoguns.
Kyoto...well, you know. Miyajima is the site of the
Itsukushima Shrine, and the site of the battle between
the Mori and Sue.

Enjoy! And check them soon, because I've got more to
put up, but we're close to being over limit.

Nate






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Thanks true much.
Very nice pics.
See you and good bye.

Elisa


--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> All--
>
> I've uploaded three folders of photos to the Group
> website. You can take a look at
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
>
> and click on "photos".
>
> New photos are in folders:
>
> Kusunoki and Nikko pics
> Kyoto Pics
> Miyajima Pics
>
> Kusunoki Masashige was the "loyal retainer" of
> Emperor
> Go-Daigo, and the pics of him are from the statue
> outside the Imperial Palace. Nikko is the final
> resting place of Tokugawa Ieyasu and his grandson,
> Iemitsu, the first and third Tokugawa Shoguns.
> Kyoto...well, you know. Miyajima is the site of the
> Itsukushima Shrine, and the site of the battle
> between
> the Mori and Sue.
>
> Enjoy! And check them soon, because I've got more to
> put up, but we're close to being over limit.
>
> Nate
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>

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Hi Nate,

Thanks for your suggestions, sadly however, no joy. Although I am using
an ordinary PC, the email package I have on board is a non standard type
called "Turnpike" from Demon, my ISP, who I'll now contact to see if
they can sort the problem out.

Again, much thanks for trying.

Yours

Dean

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:07:47 +0100, Dean Waylandさん wrote:

>Thanks for your suggestions, sadly however, no joy. Although I am using
>an ordinary PC, the email package I have on board is a non standard type
>called "Turnpike" from Demon, my ISP, who I'll now contact to see if
>they can sort the problem out.

Although this is a bit off-topic, I hope that the discussion will be
allowed to continue. It might be helpful for lots of people who are
interested in studying, or communicating, in Japanese.

First, here is a good (general) link to why this happens:
http://dehoog.org/html/mojibake.html

Dean, the "meaningless junk" you refer to is called "moji bake".
That's not bake like "bake a cake", it's bah-kay. It's happening
because either your encoding, or the encoding of the person who
sent the message (or both) are somehow not correct.

If you can answer a few questions it would help get you closer to
your goal, I think:
1. What operating system are you using? That is, Windows 2000, Windows
98, Windows XP, etc.
2. Can you see Japanese at all on your computer? For instance Japanese
web pages? Japanese documents?
3. Are you able to see any Japanese at all on this mailing list? If
you could point to an email that you did see properly it will help.
4. Here is a test string of Japanese. Does it work? いろはにほへとちり
ぬるを

Let's take it from there!

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Generaly speaking, if you run win98 or ME, you go to microsoft.com
and download the Japanese language pack. if you run winXP, you turn
it on somewhere in the control panel. if you run MAC, i have no
idea. Regardless, not all email programs work with it, so you would
need to come directly to the yahoo gruop and view the messages as a
webpage.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:07:47 +0100, Dean Wayland､ｵ､� wrote:
> >Thanks for your suggestions, sadly however, no joy. Although I am
using
> >an ordinary PC, the email package I have on board is a non
standard type
> >called "Turnpike" from Demon, my ISP, who I'll now contact to see
if
> >they can sort the problem out.
>
> Although this is a bit off-topic, I hope that the discussion will
be
> allowed to continue. It might be helpful for lots of people who are
> interested in studying, or communicating, in Japanese.
>
> First, here is a good (general) link to why this happens:
> http://dehoog.org/html/mojibake.html
>
> Dean, the "meaningless junk" you refer to is called "moji bake".
> That's not bake like "bake a cake", it's bah-kay. It's happening
> because either your encoding, or the encoding of the person who
> sent the message (or both) are somehow not correct.
>
> If you can answer a few questions it would help get you closer to
> your goal, I think:
> 1. What operating system are you using? That is, Windows 2000,
Windows
> 98, Windows XP, etc.
> 2. Can you see Japanese at all on your computer? For instance
Japanese
> web pages? Japanese documents?
> 3. Are you able to see any Japanese at all on this mailing list? If
> you could point to an email that you did see properly it will help.
> 4. Here is a test string of Japanese. Does it work? ､､､�､ﾏ､ﾋ､ﾛ､ﾘ､ﾈ､ﾁ
¤ê
> ､ﾌ､�､�
>
> Let's take it from there!
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

>> That's not bake like "bake a cake", it's bah-kay.
> It's happening
> because either your encoding, or the encoding of the
> person who
> sent the message (or both) are somehow not correct.

See, that's what I thought, so I told him how to
change his encoding. The next step is to enable the
Japanese fonts, but that's not necessary unless he
wants to write.



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--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Generaly speaking, if you run win98 or ME, you go to
> microsoft.com
> and download the Japanese language pack. if you run
> winXP, you turn
> it on somewhere in the control panel. if you run
> MAC, i have no
> idea. Regardless, not all email programs work with
> it, so you would
> need to come directly to the yahoo gruop and view
> the messages as a
> webpage.

Win 2000 requires the actual startup disk to run--XP
it's already in there, you just have to turn it on
throught the control panel.



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Dear Jay,

Firstly, I haven't had time to contact my ISP or check out the link you
gave, but here's the answers to your questions:

> 1. What operating system are you using? That is, Windows 2000,
> Windows
> 98, Windows XP, etc.

Windows XP Pro

> 2. Can you see Japanese at all on your computer? For instance
> Japanese
> web pages? Japanese documents?

Yes, I got the extra bits for "Internet Exploder", so viewing "most" web
sites is fine, but not all(?)

> 3. Are you able to see any Japanese at all on this mailing list? If
> you could point to an email that you did see properly it will help.

Er.. no, not that I recall, sorry.

> 4. Here is a test string of Japanese. Does it work? 
> $B$$$m$O$K$[$X$H$A$j(B
> $B$L$k$r(B

No luck, I got what I presume to be this "moji bake" you mentioned.

> Let's take it from there!

Okay over to you... BTW cheers for the help.

Yours

Dean

P.S. just as I was attempting to post the above, my package through this
message up:

"The message you are posting contains characters which are not included
in the MIME character set being used (ISO 8859-1)"

Curiously when I tried to look this up via the Help function, there was
no entry:-( And so no immediately obvious (well to me at least) way of
changing it.

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Dear Jay,
>
> Firstly, I haven't had time to contact my ISP or
> check out the link you
> gave, but here's the answers to your questions:
>
> > 1. What operating system are you using? That
> is, Windows 2000,
> > Windows
> > 98, Windows XP, etc.
>
> Windows XP Pro
>

Okay, if you've got Windows XP, try this:

When viewing the email with Japanese in it, left click

and go to "Encoding" on the menu that pops up. Click
on it, and see if anything that says Japanese is on
there..."Japanese(AutoSelect)", "Japanese(ShiftJIS)",
or "Japanese(EUC)". These are all encoding systems
that read the characters on your screen. Switching to
them generally does not affect most English text. Half
the time I forget which encoding I'm in.

If they aren't there, click "more". See if they are
there. If they are, click one--preferably Japanese
(AutoSelect).

If they aren't on the "more" window, then you'll have
to go to your control panel.

As I'm currently on a Win 2000 machine at work, I
can't help further for now--when I get home to my XP
machine, I'll hunt down what exactly you are supposed
to do there. But if you're running XP, it's already on
your machine to READ Japanese--you may or may not have
to load something to get to write Japanese, but you
should be able to download that--alternately, it's on
your windows startup disk.

>
> P.S. just as I was attempting to post the above, my
> package through this
> message up:
>
> "The message you are posting contains characters
> which are not included
> in the MIME character set being used (ISO 8859-1)"
>
> Curiously when I tried to look this up via the Help
> function, there was
> no entry:-( And so no immediately obvious (well to
> me at least) way of
> changing it.
>
>
>

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Hi Nate,

You wrote:

> Okay, if you've got Windows XP, try this:
>
> When viewing the email with Japanese in it, left click
> and go to "Encoding" on the menu that pops up.

Okay, I tried this, it just highlighted the text, it didn't present me
with a menu. I then tried pasting Jay's email with its sample text in to
Outlook Express just in case it was an issue with Turnpike, again no
joy, however...

I noticed that when Turnpike displayed Jay's message, it offered me the
option of selecting a different mode of "Viewer". The default option was
Internet Exploder, so off I went, and hey presto, a little line of
hiragana. I assume Jay that's what you actually sent me?

Nate continued:

> If they aren't on the "more" window, then you'll have
> to go to your control panel.

As the above solution is not totally ideal, I decided to go wandering
through the Control Panel, where I found Regional and Language options.
I attempted to set it up for Japanese. The files were already on my hard
drive (requested when I bought the machine), so I went into Advanced and
did the deed. I then had to undo it as some very strange things happened
to all my other programs. For example on the address bar of "My
Documents", the back slashes were replaced with the symbol for yen! Of
course this could be perfectly normal, but being a bit twitchy where
computing is concerned, I went in to reverse gear.

Anyway, everything is now back to what passes for normal around here,
and with a stroke of a key I can read kana. Jay or Nate, could you send
me some kanji so I can confirm that the system can in fact cope.

H'mm, now what about writing in Japanese..? Arghhh....:-)

Cheers for all the help.

Yours

Dean

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Okay, I tried this, it just highlighted the text,

it

> didn't present me
> with a menu. I then tried pasting Jay's email with
> its sample text in to
> Outlook Express just in case it was an issue with
> Turnpike, again no
> joy, however...

That's odd. Turnpike is your email program? I'm not
familiar with it. This works with yahoo, hotmail,
Outlook...and everything else I've ever used.

> I noticed that when Turnpike displayed Jay's
> message, it offered me the
> option of selecting a different mode of "Viewer".
> The default option was
> Internet Exploder, so off I went, and hey presto, a
> little line of
> hiragana. I assume Jay that's what you actually sent
> me?

Okay, sounds like it worked. I don't remember what Jay
sent, though.

I then had to undo it as some very

> strange things happened
> to all my other programs. For example on the address
> bar of "My
> Documents", the back slashes were replaced with the
> symbol for yen! Of
> course this could be perfectly normal, but being a
> bit twitchy where
> computing is concerned, I went in to reverse gear.

No, this is what you want. When that happens, just
change the encoding back to "western european" and it
will switch back. As to why no little sidebar menu
popped up, it may depend on "where" you are clicking.
Don't click on text you are typing--and make sure it's
a RIGHT click--I may have said left click, not
thinking. Now that I actually look at the mouse, it's
a right click.

> Anyway, everything is now back to what passes for
> normal around here,
> and with a stroke of a key I can read kana. Jay or
> Nate, could you send
> me some kanji so I can confirm that the system can
> in fact cope.

I'll try when I get home--much to my chagrin, I can
read but can't type fonts yet on my work computer
here, and last night my home connection went down, so
we'll see. I should get the disk for the fonts (I'm on
a Win 2000 comp--cheap govt--and can't download it)
next week.

> H'mm, now what about writing in Japanese..?
> Arghhh....:-)

Go back to the control panel; go to regional options,
and then Input Locales. Click "Change", then it will
take you to Text Services. Click "Add" and highlight
Japanese, then it should come up with a language bar
you can switch back and forth.



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Oyakata holds session:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:44:13 +0100, Dean Waylandさん wrote:

>I noticed that when Turnpike displayed Jay's message, it offered me the
>option of selecting a different mode of "Viewer". The default option was
>Internet Exploder, so off I went, and hey presto, a little line of
>hiragana. I assume Jay that's what you actually sent me?

Yes, it was the first few characters of the "Iroha" いろは poem.
Sounds like you got it!

>Anyway, everything is now back to what passes for normal around here,
>and with a stroke of a key I can read kana. Jay or Nate, could you send
>me some kanji so I can confirm that the system can in fact cope.

人間五拾年
下天の内を比ぶれば
夢幻の如くなる

How does it look?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:

>
> ｿﾍｴﾖｸﾞｽｦﾇｯ
> ｲｼﾅｷ､ﾎﾆ筅�ﾈ讀ﾖ､�､ﾐ
> ﾌｴｸｸ､ﾎﾇ｡､ｯ､ﾊ､�
>
> How does it look?
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@O...

It looks like someone is preparing to die a fiery death at the
Honnouji.

Toki ha ima...


--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata
> wrote:
>
> >
> > ����������
> > ������������������
> > ��������������
> >
> > How does it look?
> >
> > --
> > Jay Kelly
> > oyakata@O...
>
>
> It looks like someone is preparing to die a fiery
> death at the
> Honnouji.
>
>

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Oyakata holds session:

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:40:55 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:

>Toki ha ima...

Damn upstart.

;-)



--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> Oyakata holds session:
> On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:40:55 -0700 (PDT), Nate
> Ledbetter���� wrote:
>
> >Toki ha ima...
>
> Damn upstart.
>

Taking in any temples in Kyoto, Oyakata-sama? he he he




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Hi Guys,

Minor discovery, it seems that my email program only offers me the
option to view a message in Internet Exploder, when in HTML format. The
message below wasn't and so it didn't work. I did try a cut and paste
job, just in case but it was a bit of a futile effort. Oh well, one must
expect the odd little pot hole on the road to enlightenment, eh:-)

Yours

Dean

In message <20040818064055.22647.qmail@...>, Nate
Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> writes

>Toki ha ima...
>
>--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
>wrote:
>
>> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > ｿﾍｴﾖｸﾞｽｦﾇｯ
>> > ｲｼﾅｷ､ﾎﾆ筅�ﾈ讀ﾖ､�､ﾐ
>> > ﾌｴｸｸ､ﾎﾇ｡､ｯ､ﾊ､�
>> >
>> > How does it look?
>> > --
>> > Jay Kelly
>> > oyakata@O...
>>
>> It looks like someone is preparing to die a fiery
>> death at the
>> Honnouji.

Oyakata-dono,

> $B?M4V8^=&G/(B
> $B2 $BL488$NG!$/$J$k(B
>
> How does it look?

"Wonderful!"

Now all I have to do is learn to read it. Kana down, kanji to go.

the door is open
the way is clear
a many sandaled march
to another door

Cheer's Jay, one happy bunny over here:-)

Yours

Dean

Dean--

I'm confused--if you're referring to the "Toki ha
ima", I typed that in roman characters, not any
Japanese, so it wouldn't show up at all.

Nate

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> Minor discovery, it seems that my email program only
> offers me the
> option to view a message in Internet Exploder, when
> in HTML format. The
> message below wasn't and so it didn't work. I did
> try a cut and paste
> job, just in case but it was a bit of a futile
> effort. Oh well, one must
> expect the odd little pot hole on the road to
> enlightenment, eh:-)
>
> Yours
>
> Dean
>
> In message
>

<20040818064055.22647.qmail@...>,

> Nate
> Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> writes
> >Toki ha ima...
> >
> >--- Kitsuno
> <samurai-listowner@...>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > ����������
> >> > ������������������
> >> > ��������������
> >> >
> >> > How does it look?
> >> > --
> >> > Jay Kelly
> >> > oyakata@O...
> >>
> >> It looks like someone is preparing to die a fiery
> >> death at the
> >> Honnouji.
>
>

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Hi Nate,

I can get my machine to toggle between "English" and "Japanese" input on
the keyboard, but apart from doing that, nothing, even the menus that
hang off the language bar don't work! They flash up and disappear, I
suspect its a conflict of some sort, probably with the special text
enlarging and speech out package, that's what normally mucks everything
up on this machine.

As I think I've taken up enough band width with this one for the time
being, I'm going to try to get some one in to look at my config, to see
if it can be sorted out. Meanwhile, back to things Japanese and
historical:-)

Much thanks for all your help.

Yours

Dean

Sounds of man throwing large rocks at computer grrr....

Nate, ah, note Jay's bit of pseudo Japanese in the email that you quoted
below, which has come out as a series of blocks, that's what I was
referring to, not your entirely readable, but to a non-speaker utterly
unintelligible piece of text:-) Sorry for causing you to become
confused.

Yours

Dean

Nate wrote:

>Dean--
>
>I'm confused--if you're referring to the "Toki ha
>ima", I typed that in roman characters, not any
>Japanese, so it wouldn't show up at all.
>
>Nate

Nate's previously message:

>> >Toki ha ima...
>> >
>> >--- Kitsuno
>> <samurai-listowner@...>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > ｿﾍｴﾖｸﾞｽｦﾇｯ
>> >> > ｲｼﾅｷ､ﾎﾆ筅�ﾈ讀ﾖ､�､ﾐ
>> >> > ﾌｴｸｸ､ﾎﾇ｡､ｯ､ﾊ､�
>> >> >
>> >> > How does it look?
>> >> > --
>> >> > Jay Kelly
>> >> > oyakata@O...

--- Dean Wayland <dean@...>
wrote:

> Nate, ah, note Jay's bit of pseudo Japanese in the
> email that you quoted
> below, which has come out as a series of blocks,
> that's what I was
> referring to, not your entirely readable, but to a
> non-speaker utterly
> unintelligible piece of text:-) Sorry for causing
> you to become
> confused.
>
> Yours
>
> Dean

I did note that, and it's the same bit of Japanese
that you had replied to earlier, that you could
see--hence my confusion. So we've established one
fact--you can see the Japanese in the original email,
but not when it's rerouted as a reply. Hmm.

Nate



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> New photos are in folders:
>
> Kusunoki and Nikko pics
> Kyoto Pics
> Miyajima Pics

Lucky you got to Miyajima when you did - did you see the footage of
what Typhoon #18 did to the Itsukushima shrine? Blew the roof off
and tore it up pretty bad.

Holy Crap! No, I didn't see that! Now I'm going to
have to search for some pictures!

Nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> wrote:
>
> > New photos are in folders:
> >
> > Kusunoki and Nikko pics
> > Kyoto Pics
> > Miyajima Pics
>
> Lucky you got to Miyajima when you did - did you see
> the footage of
> what Typhoon #18 did to the Itsukushima shrine?
> Blew the roof off
> and tore it up pretty bad.
>
>

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