Revenge

Hey guys,

You may or may not know I'm a writer, and I'm working on a fantasy
novel set in a very late Sengoku-era alternate world. I'd like to
make it as real and accurate as possible, even though it is a fantasy
world, and some of the questions I have might have instructive
answers for the list people.

The questions I'd like to start off with are:

1. What were the penalties (if any, social or otherwise) of women
dressing like men, and men dressing like women, in Japanese culture
of that time?

2. When did revenge killing become illegal, and what were the
penalties?

3. What would be the penalties for killing a shogun, and likely
repercussions politically of a shogun's murder?

4. When did a sword without a tsuba (yes, I'll say it, like Lucy
Liu's sword in Kill Bill) become acceptable, if it ever did?

I realize these questions might be far more complex than a single
post- or even ten posts- could answer. I appreciate any help- and of
course, anyone who helps out will be listed in the acknowledgements
if and when I get this book to print.

Lili

Oh, another one ^_^
I'm a writer too.

elisa



--- Lilith <lillith.saintcrow@...> wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> You may or may not know I'm a writer,

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Hi Lili
If you were to a shogun there are two possible outcomes either you would become his replacement or you would be killed in short order by his family or retainers. The political repercussion would be chaos, a power vacume, and possibly cival war as what happened in the case when Oda Nobunaga was murdered. As far as swords without tsuba the only type I know of is an aikuchi a type of mounting for a dagger.

----- Original Message -----
From: Lilith
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 9:18 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Revenge


Hey guys,

You may or may not know I'm a writer, and I'm working on a fantasy
novel set in a very late Sengoku-era alternate world. I'd like to
make it as real and accurate as possible, even though it is a fantasy
world, and some of the questions I have might have instructive
answers for the list people.

The questions I'd like to start off with are:

1. What were the penalties (if any, social or otherwise) of women
dressing like men, and men dressing like women, in Japanese culture
of that time?

2. When did revenge killing become illegal, and what were the
penalties?

3. What would be the penalties for killing a shogun, and likely
repercussions politically of a shogun's murder?

4. When did a sword without a tsuba (yes, I'll say it, like Lucy
Liu's sword in Kill Bill) become acceptable, if it ever did?

I realize these questions might be far more complex than a single
post- or even ten posts- could answer. I appreciate any help- and of
course, anyone who helps out will be listed in the acknowledgements
if and when I get this book to print.

Lili



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Lilith <lillith.saintcrow@...> wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> You may or may not know I'm a writer, and I'm
> working on a fantasy
> novel set in a very late Sengoku-era alternate
> world. I'd like to
> make it as real and accurate as possible, even
> though it is a fantasy
> world, and some of the questions I have might have
> instructive
> answers for the list people.

Wow, refreshing--someone who wants to make a novel
"realistic"! We'd be GLAD to help, providing you
provide a small donation to Kitsuno's site with the
millions you rake in from your book deal! Good luck!
And keep the questions coming!!

> 1. What were the penalties (if any, social or
> otherwise) of women
> dressing like men, and men dressing like women, in
> Japanese culture
> of that time?

A funny look or two? I'm not sure there were any legal
penalties, though I wouldn't imagine that the person
would be well thought of if anyone found out she was a
woman.

> 2. When did revenge killing become illegal, and what
> were the
> penalties?

Good question--again, I can't provide a definitive
answer, but I'd say it was probably under the Tokugawa
shogunate--witness the illegality, yet moral virtue,
of the 47 Ronin. The penalty in that case was death,
as it was for most offenses other than the extremely
trivial. Though if this is late-Sengoku, it depends on
if there is an authority capable of enforcing the law.
Would your character be punished by his own lord? It's
perfectly conceivable that while in the late Sengoku
there was no Shogun capable of enforcing anything,
this particular person's daimyo could have a House Law
against it, or something.

> 3. What would be the penalties for killing a shogun,
> and likely
> repercussions politically of a shogun's murder?

Wow, where to begin...? It would depend on the
situtation, of course. I can think of 4 instances
where the Shogun was assasinated/murdered/attacked and
killed:

Minamoto Yoriie was the second Minamoto Shogun, but
was deposed and assasinated by his gradfather, Hojo
Tokimasa, in 1203. Tokimasa put Yoriie's brother
Sanetomo in the position. Yoriie didn't like being a
puppet, so he was replaced. Sanetomo was in turn
assasinated in 1219, by Yoriie's son or an unknown
assailant, depending on whom you ask. The political
fallout was that there were no more Minamoto to be
named Shogun, so the Hojo regents first got two
Fujiwara, and then imperial princes to hold the
position, while they continued their actual control of
the bakufu as Shikken.

Ashikaga Yoshinori was assasinated in 1441, by
Akamatsu Mitsusuke, a retainer who believed he was
going to be deprived of his lands. He invited the
Shogun to a celebration, and had him assasinated
during the festivities. The bakufu reacted by
commisioning the Yamana family to destroy the
Akamatsu, which they did, for the most part. The
Yamana gained all the Amako lands, and set themselves
up as a major player in the bakufu, just in time for
Yamana Sozen to start the Onin War with his moves for
power (The Shogun, at this point, was once again a
legitimizing tool for his 'vassal' families to fight
over, the strongest generally being named Kyoto
Kanrei).

Ashikaga Yoshiteru was assasinated by Matsunaga
Hisahide, a retainer of the Miyoshi clan at the time,
who themselves were former retainers of the Hosokawa,
the enemies of the Yamana in the Onin War. Yoshiteru,
while a puppet like most of the others mentioned, did
resist the Miyoshi, so they removed him by attacking
his palace in 1565. He held off the attackers
admirably for a while, then retired to commit seppuku.
The Miyoshi installed Ashikaga Yoshihide, only to be
swept aside by Oda Nobunaga 3 years later, with
Yoshiaki.

All but one of these are instances of a puppet Shogun
being killed by one faction so they could put their
puppet, or at least a puppet more cooperative, in
place. If you're looking at the Shogun being a strong
figure, someone who might deserve to die in a revenge
killing, these examples might not help. If the Shogun
ruled rather than reigned, there would be a power
vacuum while a successor was named, etc. If the
successor was young, a regent would be named, who
would probably be the strongest retainer. Conflict
would no doubt take place with other retainers who
were jealous...and you see the cycle.

> 4. When did a sword without a tsuba (yes, I'll say
> it, like Lucy
> Liu's sword in Kill Bill) become acceptable, if it
> ever did?

Never. Swords in shirasaya, the scabbard with no tsuba
(usually light wood colored) are kept that way for
storage. For someone to carry it and use it, they'd
take it and mount it in a normal mounting. Shirasaya
protect the blade while it's being stored or shipped.

> I realize these questions might be far more complex
> than a single
> post- or even ten posts- could answer. I appreciate
> any help- and of
> course, anyone who helps out will be listed in the
> acknowledgements
> if and when I get this book to print.

Good stuff, makes us think--and just send us all
copies!

Nate



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In a message dated 8/3/2004 10:17:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, Thus Sprach
ombraegrazia@...:

> Oh, another one ^_^
> I'm a writer too.
>
> elisa
>

That makes three! :-D

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hello
my name is carl.ive been studying budo taijutsu fer a long time.its really cool to here that someone wants to write a book thats somewhat realistic & accurate.as far as answers fer some of yer questions.women dressing like men,i dont believe there really was a penalty fer that.i know if u dressed like a mna that most men wouldnt really know the difference until u presented yerself as a woman dressed like a man.revenge killing has always technically been illegal,just nobody cared.i believe that they started enforcing the penaltys fer revenge killing when they started doing awya w/the samurai.thats aslo the time that alot of samurai or bugei who did revenge killing started instituting the "living to the bitter end".penalties fer killing the shogun has always resulted in death.if u got caught killing them& they didnt kill u then,they were gonna put u in a trial then execute u.the reprecussions could amount to just about anything.it all depended on the structural integrity of the social
system.it could amount to complete & total chaos,or it would amount to a power struggle....sometimes it was done by means of tyrannicide.as for the sword used in kill bill.that type of sword wouldve been called a zatoichi.it was never acceptable by anybody except fer people who still practiced budo taijutsu.supposedly ronin,ninja,& the ilk carried them.but it was never acceptable.usually it was used to romanticize the image of budo.if u have any questions,feel free to ask me ,hopefully i can be of help.
kage no musha
Lilith <lillith.saintcrow@...> wrote:
Hey guys,

You may or may not know I'm a writer, and I'm working on a fantasy
novel set in a very late Sengoku-era alternate world. I'd like to
make it as real and accurate as possible, even though it is a fantasy
world, and some of the questions I have might have instructive
answers for the list people.

The questions I'd like to start off with are:

1. What were the penalties (if any, social or otherwise) of women
dressing like men, and men dressing like women, in Japanese culture
of that time?

2. When did revenge killing become illegal, and what were the
penalties?

3. What would be the penalties for killing a shogun, and likely
repercussions politically of a shogun's murder?

4. When did a sword without a tsuba (yes, I'll say it, like Lucy
Liu's sword in Kill Bill) become acceptable, if it ever did?

I realize these questions might be far more complex than a single
post- or even ten posts- could answer. I appreciate any help- and of
course, anyone who helps out will be listed in the acknowledgements
if and when I get this book to print.

Lili



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi i was just interested in your book i would like to read in when will it come out and whats it going to be called

Chase



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Aug 3, 2004, at 9:18 AM, Lilith wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> You may or may not know I'm a writer, and I'm working on a fantasy
> novel set in a very late Sengoku-era alternate world. I'd like to
> make it as real and accurate as possible, even though it is a fantasy
> world, and some of the questions I have might have instructive
> answers for the list people.
>
> The questions I'd like to start off with are:
>
> 1. What were the penalties (if any, social or otherwise) of women
> dressing like men, and men dressing like women, in Japanese culture
> of that time?

Izumo no Okuni (a woman)became famous for doing just that, at the very
end of the Azuchi-momoyama period. Dressed as a man sporting a
crucifix, and a pair of gaudy swords, she was a huge hit. She founded a
very famous theatre tradition. I suggest that you do a search for her,
I am sure you will get lots of wonderful info as well as the answer you
seek.

>
> 2. When did revenge killing become illegal, and what were the
> penalties?

Not sure it was outlawed but was highly "legislated" in the Tokugawa
period. Under the right circumstances you could be rewarded for it. The
Ako-roshi are an excellent example, they did everything right but
because at the very heart of their action was rebellion against the
Bakufu they were sentenced to death.
See "Tales of Samurai Honour" (by Callaghan I think it is) for some
interesting background and stories dealing with Adauchi.

>
> 3. What would be the penalties for killing a shogun, and likely
> repercussions politically of a shogun's murder?

See Nate's excellent post...

>
> 4. When did a sword without a tsuba (yes, I'll say it, like Lucy
> Liu's sword in Kill Bill) become acceptable, if it ever did?
>

(Never say never) One of the most gifted and interesting of the Sengoku
Daimyo was Uesugi Kenshin. He is known to have cherished the work of
Bizen smiths and the great swordsmith Nagamitsu especially, he had
several bona-fide blades. All mounted as tachi, all mounted WITHOUT
tsuba. This style is not called aikuchi-koshirae which is used for
tanto but rather Uesugi-koshirae. It was unusual but not unheard of. I
think one finds it easier to draw and return a sword of greater length
without the tsuba and some have pointed to his example as evidence that
a tsuba is a "hand stop and not a hand guard..."
-t

I have also heard it said that many soldiers removed their guards
before going into battle.

Let me add that Shirasaya were sometimes lacquered like in the film
(likely after 1868) but it is highly unlikely that anyone ever
seriously used such a thing as a weapon. I didn't get what you were on
about until Carl's posting showed up. Carl I am certain that what you
refer to as a "Zatoichi", is actually a sword cane or Shikomi-zue.
Which the character Zato-Ichi carries in his many films. I can highly
recommend the new film by Beat Takeshi BTW a real Hoot that was...
-t

--- carl rosian <ghostweasel2k@...> wrote:
that type of sword wouldve been called a zatoichi.

Hi

Zatoichi is person in a movie, not a type of sword

the sword that people are trying to call zatoichi is
actually called a shikomi zue.

If you are studying Budo Taijutsu May I suggest you
watcht he Kukishinden Hanbjutsu Shikomi Zue video,
then you may see one in use.

Paul Richardson



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In answer to:

>> 4. When did a sword without a tsuba (yes, I'll say
>> it, like Lucy
>> Liu's sword in Kill Bill) become acceptable, if it
>> ever did?

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> Never. Swords in shirasaya, the scabbard with no tsuba
> (usually light wood colored) are kept that way for
> storage. For someone to carry it and use it, they'd
> take it and mount it in a normal mounting. Shirasaya
> protect the blade while it's being stored or shipped.

Whilst it's true that swords without tsuba never became widely acceptable,
they certainly did exist. The aikuchi (no tsuba) tanto was accepted and
worn. I think it is in Nobuo Ogasawara sensei's little book that there is a
picture of an katana owned by Uesugi Kenshin that did not have a tsuba. I
have seen other katana in the books without tsuba, but in "real-life"
collecting I have only seen aikuchi tanto.

regards,

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

--- Barry Thomas <warlord@...> wrote:

> Whilst it's true that swords without tsuba never
> became widely acceptable,
> they certainly did exist. The aikuchi (no tsuba)
> tanto was accepted and
> worn. I think it is in Nobuo Ogasawara sensei's
> little book that there is a
> picture of an katana owned by Uesugi Kenshin that
> did not have a tsuba. I
> have seen other katana in the books without tsuba,
> but in "real-life"
> collecting I have only seen aikuchi tanto.

Another poster also mentioned the Uesugi sword.

Aikuchi tanto notwithstanding (being tanto and not
katana, and therefore more of a knife rather than a
sword, in which case the tsuba isn't nearly as
functional), I'll change my statement from "Never" to
"it was so extremely rare that the wealth of knowledge
on this board has been able to come up with ONE
example."

The point is not "was there ever even ONE example of
this sword", it is to inform the prospective author
that it's not bloody likely someone would be walking
around with a sword with no tsuba in the late Sengoku.
Should she wish to still include it in her story,
well, it's her story--more power to her. But the
answer to her question is no, people didn't use these,
generally speaking, ever. One example doesn't disprove
that statement.



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hello,
thank you for the recommendation.i asked my sensei,& he told me a little bit about it.i heard that there was a new release of the massuer ichi series,but i havent got to see the older ones yet,so im gonna wait till i watch the older ones before i watch the new one.thanks again.

Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
Let me add that Shirasaya were sometimes lacquered like in the film
(likely after 1868) but it is highly unlikely that anyone ever
seriously used such a thing as a weapon. I didn't get what you were on
about until Carl's posting showed up. Carl I am certain that what you
refer to as a "Zatoichi", is actually a sword cane or Shikomi-zue.
Which the character Zato-Ichi carries in his many films. I can highly
recommend the new film by Beat Takeshi BTW a real Hoot that was...
-t



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

hi,
thank you mr richardson fer the advice.ah,kukishinden the 9 demons transmission.good stuff!at my school we study alot of kukishinden,but mainly we focus alot on the dakentaijutsu.my sensei was the one who told me that it wouldve been a zatoichi.he just told me a little bit about it,not much.but agian,arigato gozaimasu

Richardson Paul <umaryu@...> wrote:

--- carl rosian <ghostweasel2k@...> wrote:
that type of sword wouldve been called a zatoichi.

Hi

Zatoichi is person in a movie, not a type of sword

the sword that people are trying to call zatoichi is
actually called a shikomi zue.

If you are studying Budo Taijutsu May I suggest you
watcht he Kukishinden Hanbjutsu Shikomi Zue video,
then you may see one in use.

Paul Richardson



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Another poster also mentioned the Uesugi sword.
>
> Aikuchi tanto notwithstanding (being tanto and not
> katana, and therefore more of a knife rather than a
> sword, in which case the tsuba isn't nearly as
> functional), I'll change my statement from "Never" to
> "it was so extremely rare that the wealth of knowledge
> on this board has been able to come up with ONE
> example."
>
> The point is not "was there ever even ONE example of
> this sword", it is to inform the prospective author
> that it's not bloody likely someone would be walking
> around with a sword with no tsuba in the late Sengoku.
> Should she wish to still include it in her story,
> well, it's her story--more power to her. But the
> answer to her question is no, people didn't use these,
> generally speaking, ever. One example doesn't disprove
> that statement.
>
>

Responding late to this;
and the thread has gone other places. Anyway, Nate et al, when I
mentioned Uesugi it was with the three well publicized koshirae which
have good provenance to Kenshin. I said THESE are called
Uesugi-koshirae because it is a CATAGORY of sword, I think you'll find
that when someone as famous as Kenshin adopts this style many others
did as well. This is not that rare a thing to see. I refer you all to
Uchi-gatana Koshirae, a catalog from a Tokyo National Museum exhibition
drawn from their extensive holdings. There you will find a number of
examples contemporary to the age of War. And as someone much more
knowledgeable than I said on the same subject, "There was no other
reason to own a sword in the Sengoku period but for fighting."

-t

Sorry, I've not read the original post so may be I'm misunderstanding
something, but it seems to me that on page 83 picture 53 of "The
Japanese Sword" by Kanzan Sato, there is a Wakizashi in Aikuchi mounting
with Kogatana on both sides (the "Uesugi Mounting" peculiarity), black
lacquer and blue tsukamaki, belonged to Kenshin. At least this is what
Sato quoted.
To call this a "Sword Category" is anyway an overextension of the
"category" therm. May be "Fashion" fit better...

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Tom Helm [mailto:junkmail@...]
Inviato: venerdì 6 agosto 2004 15.14
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Revenge

> Another poster also mentioned the Uesugi sword.
>
> Aikuchi tanto notwithstanding (being tanto and not
> katana, and therefore more of a knife rather than a
> sword, in which case the tsuba isn't nearly as
> functional), I'll change my statement from "Never" to
> "it was so extremely rare that the wealth of knowledge
> on this board has been able to come up with ONE
> example."
>
> The point is not "was there ever even ONE example of
> this sword", it is to inform the prospective author
> that it's not bloody likely someone would be walking
> around with a sword with no tsuba in the late Sengoku.
> Should she wish to still include it in her story,
> well, it's her story--more power to her. But the
> answer to her question is no, people didn't use these,
> generally speaking, ever. One example doesn't disprove
> that statement.
>
>

Responding late to this;
and the thread has gone other places. Anyway, Nate et al, when I

mentioned Uesugi it was with the three well publicized koshirae which
have good provenance to Kenshin. I said THESE are called
Uesugi-koshirae because it is a CATAGORY of sword, I think you'll find
that when someone as famous as Kenshin adopts this style many others
did as well. This is not that rare a thing to see. I refer you all to
Uchi-gatana Koshirae, a catalog from a Tokyo National Museum exhibition
drawn from their extensive holdings. There you will find a number of
examples contemporary to the age of War. And as someone much more
knowledgeable than I said on the same subject, "There was no other
reason to own a sword in the Sengoku period but for fighting."

-t




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--- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:

> Responding late to this;
> and the thread has gone other places. Anyway, Nate
> et al, when I
> mentioned Uesugi it was with the three well
> publicized koshirae which
> have good provenance to Kenshin. I said THESE are
> called
> Uesugi-koshirae because it is a CATAGORY of sword, I
> think you'll find
> that when someone as famous as Kenshin adopts this
> style many others
> did as well. This is not that rare a thing to see. I
> refer you all to
> Uchi-gatana Koshirae, a catalog from a Tokyo
> National Museum exhibition
> drawn from their extensive holdings. There you will
> find a number of
> examples contemporary to the age of War. And as
> someone much more
> knowledgeable than I said on the same subject,
> "There was no other
> reason to own a sword in the Sengoku period but for
> fighting."

Okay, fair enough. I'm a babe in the woods when it
comes to sword knowledge. Still, it wasn't common.




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Carlo-
You are right Sato shows only the one example but I refer you to
Uchigatana Koshirae from the National Museum, Nihonto no Koshirae by
Suzuki, the works of Sasano and others there are many published
examples outside of the few known to have been carried by Kenshin
-t
and thanks yes s/b catEgory...

On Aug 6, 2004, at 9:51 AM, Carlo Tacchini wrote:

> Sorry, I've not read the original post so may be I'm misunderstanding
> something, but it seems to me that on page 83 picture 53 of "The
> Japanese Sword" by Kanzan Sato, there is a Wakizashi in Aikuchi
> mounting
> with Kogatana on both sides (the "Uesugi Mounting" peculiarity), black
> lacquer and blue tsukamaki, belonged to Kenshin. At least this is what
> Sato quoted.
> To call this a "Sword Category" is anyway an overextension of the
> "category" therm. May be "Fashion" fit better...
>

see below

On Aug 6, 2004, at 2:50 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> --- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
>
> > Responding late to this;
> > ����� and the thread has gone other places. Anyway, Nate
> > et al, when I
> > mentioned Uesugi it was with the three well
> > publicized koshirae which
> > have good provenance to Kenshin. I said THESE are
> > called
> > Uesugi-koshirae because it is a CATAGORY of sword, I
> > think you'll find
> > that when someone as famous as Kenshin adopts this
> > style many others
> > did as well. This is not that rare a thing to see. I
> > refer you all to
> > Uchi-gatana Koshirae, a catalog from a Tokyo
> > National Museum exhibition
> > drawn from their extensive holdings. There you will
> > find a number of
> > examples contemporary to the age of War. And as
> > someone much more
> > knowledgeable than I said on the same subject,
> > "There was no other
> > reason to own a sword in the Sengoku period but for
> > fighting."
>
> Okay, fair enough. I'm a babe in the woods when it
> comes to sword knowledge. Still, it wasn't common.

No, not that common and they were definitely not Black lacquered
shirasaya ALA Lucy Liu...
-t

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