Message: 6
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 16:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nate Ledbetter <
ltdomer98@...>
Subject: RE: Digest Number 888 - various notes on seppuku
--- Silk Road School <
silk.road.school@...>
wrote:
> Um, why? Being Japanese doesn't mean you're required
> to commit seppuku.
> A legitimate point, to be sure. But by way of
> background, my father used a
> .30-06 on himself as a way of redeeming his honour
> (an oversimplification,
> but pretty accurate), and it's left me with a
> profound distaste for that
> method of departure.
My condolences. I don't wish to sound callous, but
your feelings seem to be more directed at suicide in
general, rather than seppuku in particular. Again, you
don't have to be Japanese to commit suicide (as you
tragically are aware) and you don't have to commit
seppuku to be Japanese.
Thank you. You don't sound callous, you sound analytical. Not a problem.
Say rather that my feelings have to do with suicide as a way out of one's
problems or a method of redemption. Where there's room to fight, or cause
to live on (as in dependents who will suffer from one's death), I'd prefer
to make my life count for every scrap of advantage or any injury to my enemy
that it can be made to count for. I can think of cases where suicide would
be a perfectly rational response: e.g. terminal illness, impending capture
by forces known to treat prisoners badly (as noted by another party) (and
indeed, I understand that this was the way in which the custom of seppuku
originated).
Of course I agree that "sticking it out" is much more
honorable than what many in the west call suicide,
"taking the easy way out". Even if that way is neither
easy nor pleasant.
Indeed. I may have made it seem my father's suicide was cowardly: this I
do not believe, particularly given his deep Christian beliefs (to say
nothing of the merciless self-honesty of his last letter). "Neither easy
nor pleasant" is pretty accurate. From his own perspective, I think it was
more the scenario of "The English gentleman, his family's finances ruined by
injudicious investments, retires to his study with his Webley service
revolver." But to come to terms with it myself, I came to regard it as his
version of seppuku. I feel he could have done wiser things, but he faced a
very tough and painful decision squarely.
> Thank you for the corrections. Is it also
> incorrect, then, that the act
> was filmed? I had understood this to be the case.
It may have been, I'm not sure. I know that a short
while before, Mishima made a movie where the pivotal
scene was a seppuku (performed by him), a sort of
foreshadowing, if you will. The scene was intensely
graphic, and if I believe correctly he actually did
cut himself (on accident this time). Copious amounts
of fake blood were used. This is third hand info, as
I've not seen the scene, and only had it described by
my Japanese lit teacher in college (a few years back).
The recreation of the recreation is recreated in the
biographical movie of his life.
Rumour being what it is, it would not surprise me at all to learn that
this filmed episode gained the second-hand (or third- or fourth-) reputation
of being a film of his actual death.
The poet
> who wrote _The Narrow
> Road to the Far North_, even. (Yet another name
> I've forgotten over the
> years.) Again, this is not meant to criticise you.
> What is it about
> Mishima that affects you so, if I may ask?
Matsuo Basho is the poet you're looking for.
Damn, was that Basho? I'd completely forgotten that. That was the only
Japanese poet whose name I could remember, and I didn't think it was he.
And I
agree, I've got no desire to emulate Mishima.
Personally, he was a nutjob, out of touch with
reality, as was proven when he attempted to cause a
coup and even the students at Ichigaya laughed at him.
The books of his I've read are, well, disturbing.
Hardly my favorite author, much less someone who'd
make me want to be Japanese.
Well, that was approximately what I was trying _not_ to say to the party
who admired him...
Murakami Haruki, OTOH...
A name with which I am unfamiliar (one of many, as is obvious by now). Do
tell!
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:13:52 -0700
From: Tom Helm <
junkmail@...>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 888 - various notes on seppuku
*snip* Remember Nobunaga
walked into the heart of a conflagration rather than give himself up, I
think most would agree his was an honorable choice.
-t
If it's the only way to guarantee not being taken alive, under the
circumstances, I can certainly see it. I'd still rather go out with my
sword swinging at my enemies, doing my best to cut down one more. To quote
a C.S. Lewis villain, "Where I bite, I hold 'til I die, and even after death
you must cut my mouthful from my enemy's body and bury it with me." And to
quote R.A. Heinlein, "The size of your honor guard determines your status in
Hell."
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 21:14:54 -0400
From: Oyakata <
oyakata@...>
Subject: Re: Seppuku
>The assistant has the most important job
Tell that to the guy slicing his gut open. :)
Got that right.
Message: 14
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 02:03:12 +0000
From: "djinn djinn" <
x_djinn_x@...>
Subject: Re: Re: on suicide...
Just to elaborate a little, I think hara-kiri was somthing of a slag usage.
'Belly-slitting' is not a very dignified description, and I've seen some
people get quite offended at usage of the term for something they still
consider to be very important.
In case it's me to whom you're responding here, that was very much the
point I was trying to make. The crude terminology was a deliberate attempt
to translate the crudity of (my understanding of) the term 'hara-kiri.'
To be honest, this attitude is perfectly accepted in
the military today--I've had several discussions with
fellow army officers where we all said we'd save a
bullet in our 9mm for us, should the prospect of being
captured by the north Koreans (I was stationed twice
along the DMZ) in the event of a war. However, the key
here really isn't the prospect of dishonor--to any
decent enemy, I'd fight until I couldn't fight
anymore, and then surrender if there was nothing else
I could do. However, Charles Jenkins notwithstanding,
the nK doesn't have a great reputation for treatment
of enemy soldiers, as with most communist regimes.
To be fair, this is hardly unique to Communist regimes. (Vlad the
Impaler comes to mind, to say nothing of the Osmanli Turks from whom he got
his, er, education.) And in the context of this list - that is to say,
dragging myself back to Japanese history, I have read that among the
Japanese it is regarded as disgraceful to be taken prisoner. Both prisoners
and captors, as I recall, tended to perpetuate this view - to the extent
that captives not infrequently became partisans of their captors, seemingly
requiring a new 'identity' to replace that which was lost when they were
captured. (This is echoed in Kurosawa's "Sanjuro," where the captive ends
up cheering at a victory before he recalls whose side he's supposed to be
on.) Another example comes from WWII: I believe it was on Mindanao where
much of the civilian Japanese population chose to go off a cliff with their
children rather than be taken by the Americans. Even if this view of being
taken alive is not correct - and I can't recall my sources - there are
enough instances of horrific and humiliating executions of important
prisoners in Japanese history that I can definitely sympathise with anyone
of significance who preferred not to be taken alive.
And even in feudal Europe, for all the modern popular ideas of the
chivalric ideal, if you wanted to be taken alive in battle, you'd better
make certain to have been born with gentle blood in your veins: the Lower
Classes (that'd be most of us) were rarely treated well. For that matter,
the Italians didn't care how well-bred you were: they didn't like taking
prisoners, and they didn't respect class. Consequence of being a nation of
city-states, I gather, as opposed to a feudal monarchy.
I
admire men like John McCain quite a lot, but I'd be
sorely tempted to let my wife collect on my insurance
rather than face captivity under those conditions.
But with all those provisos and exceptions, I'm with you on this one.
Another question--where the heck does this "Digest
Number XXX" stuff come from? That wasn't the original
title of this thread.
No, but I receive the list in digest form: so I got it all at once, and
responded in kind. My apologies for any confusion.
Message: 25
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 19:52:28 -0400
From: Oyakata <
oyakata@...>
Subject: Re: Seppuku vs. Hara-Kiri
>Can anyone tell me whether the practice of cutting the neck so as to
>leave a thin string of tissue between the body and the head (to
>differentiate the body of a man who committed seppuku from a fallen
>enemy whose head was taken) was ever extant? I've read of it in a few
>books, but have not seen any scholarly verification.
I personally have never heard of this. From a practical point of view
it seems like it would be next to impossible to carry off. Plus it
seems like it's confusing things a bit. If this is the seppuku done
on the battlefield, it's not always clear that there would be a
kaishaku-nin there to cut off the head. If it is the more formal
seppuku ceremony, then of course there would be no need to make such
a distinction -- and in fact the head viewing ceremony took place
at a relatively far distance from the body.
For what it's worth, I've heard of this... but (surprise!) I do not
recall the source. I can certainly see how the solemnity of the occasion
would be marred by the head rolling across the tatami. I also think that
with decent practise, it would not be that difficult to 'pull' the cut so as
not to completely sever the neck. Not to sound boastful, but I think with a
few months' practise I could duplicate that precision - at least, on a
target that would remain stationary for the purpose. (You will understand
that my cutting practise does not generally focus on this detail - a
grievous oversight in my training, I grant you. I humbly crave your pardon,
one and all. My school focusses more on battlefield technique than on the
stylish execution of seppuku.)
Thank you all once again for a spirited and informative multilogue.
Gereg