Seppuku vs. Hara-Kiri

>My husband's Japanese, and I asked him about the difference. He
>says, "Hara-Kiri is what you do to a fish, seppuku is what a man does
>to himself." While poetic, I thought perhaps he was joking, but he
>insists calling ritual suicide 'hara-kiri' is a Western
>misunderstanding. According to him, the proper term is seppuku.

>Can anyone tell me whether the practice of cutting the neck so as to
>leave a thin string of tissue between the body and the head (to
>differentiate the body of a man who committed seppuku from a fallen
>enemy whose head was taken) was ever extant? I've read of it in a few
>books, but have not seen any scholarly verification.

> On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 16:50:09 -0000, Lilith����
> wrote:
> >My husband's Japanese, and I asked him about the
> difference. He
> >says, "Hara-Kiri is what you do to a fish, seppuku
> is what a man does
> >to himself." While poetic, I thought perhaps he was
> joking, but he
> >insists calling ritual suicide 'hara-kiri' is a
> Western
> >misunderstanding. According to him, the proper term
> is seppuku.
>
> Lilith,
> Unfortunately (or fortunately) being a native
> speaker doesn't mean
> that you automatically know everything about your
> language. I know
> that is certainly the case for me and English.
>
> Harakiri is a perfectly legitimate (and old) word
> referring to ritual
> suicide. Of course it is a bit crude, which may be
> where your husband
> is coming from in saying that it's better to use the
> word to refer to
> animals. But it can't be denied that hara-kiri is
> perfectly natural
> and not a Western misunderstanding.

> it was my un derstanding according to my sensei that
> hara kiri was a really dishonourable way to die.it
> was alos called a dogs death.were as seppuku was a
> more honourable way to die,a warriors death.i know
> that western ideals romanticize the ideals of
> seppuku,& that most people get hara kiri confused
> w/seppuku.

> Can anyone tell me whether the practice of cutting the neck so as

> leave a thin string of tissue between the body and the head (to
> differentiate the body of a man who committed seppuku from a fallen
> enemy whose head was taken) was ever extant? I've read of it in a

> books, but have not seen any scholarly verification.
>
> Lili

>perhaps it's a situation of the
>native speaker telling you the way you SHOULD say
>things, instead of the way they MAY be said.

>"Seppuku" is specifically and only the act of killing
>yourself by cutting open your stomach. That's probably
>supported by the fact that the word for suicide,
>"Jisatsu", is different than seppuku.

On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 22:40:12 -0400, M. R. Williamsさん wrote:

Hi Matt,

> Well put. It is easy to fall into the trappings of romanticism with
>something like seppuku. The seppuku I described was, as taught to be, the
>way it would be done given the best possible situation. High ranking
>official given the opportunity to have a kaishaku.
> I would love to discuss the philosophy (or lack thereof) in seppuku with
>you if you feel up to it.

Well, I'm always up for a conversation where I'm bound to learn
something. :) I just feel like this subject is dangerous water to get
into, especially on a mailing list where noone actually knows each
other. People have these preconceived notions that they've learned
from so many various sources (academics, movies, novels, martial arts
teachers, etc.) that it always seems like a conversation that is bound
to explode.

And that in fact is one of my own points - the 'meaning of seppuku'
is so widely talked about and sometimes blithely thrown about that I
think people tend to lose sight of the actual history, physics,
biology, etc. of the thing. That's where I am coming from on this
discussion.

But if we both promise to be gentlemen (I'm not sure if I can uphold
my partof the promise. :) ) I'd enjoy a serious and honest
discussion on the matter, for sure.

So -- how to kick the conversation off?

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

> In fact (now I myself am starting to touch on the
> mystical side of
> this all...) you will find a common point of view
> that explicitly says
> that seppuku *is not* suicide (jisatsu). This is
> based on the
> different meaning and motivation that the two
> different acts are felt
> to represent.

On Aug 3, 2004, at 8:51 PM, M. R. Williams wrote:

> Oyakata,
>
> You have a deal. I will be civil to the best of my ability. :-)
> As for a starting point, how about this...What kind of importance
> would
> you place on the kaishaku (second)? Do you think that a kaishaku is
> mandatory or can seppuku be as "pure" without someone you trust being
> there
> to make sure you maintain your honor?
> There. That should be a good starting point. :-)
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Matt
>
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>
> The only time I have ever heard of leaving the small piece of tissue
> is so
> that, once the head has flopped over, it can be cut and the head will
> fall
> into the lap of the one committing seppuku making for a very "clean"
> and
> orderly seppuku.
>

> As for a starting point, how about this...What kind of importance would
>you place on the kaishaku (second)? Do you think that a kaishaku is
>mandatory or can seppuku be as "pure" without someone you trust being there
>to make sure you maintain your honor?

> Part of keeping the ceremony neat is avoiding unsightly things like
> heads rolling across the floor. (There I said it, I apologize for
> opening the can of worms, the gorefest begins with me I guess). When
> one suddenly separates a human head from a human body there is a great
> deal of blood pressure to be released, if you cut the head off
> completely it is likely to fly across the room, spattered in blood and
> roll to the foot of the witnesses. Hardly what I would report to my
> superiors as a "tidy" end.

>
> Personally, I think that whole "sliver of flesh" thing is pure BS --
> like a lot
> of the bushido myth and mysticism quoted or followed by westerners
> into Japanese
> martial history, it's another small item of minutiae about how picky,
> precise,
> and disciplined samurai were -- and total hogwash.
>
> Tony

>
> Well Tony you are entitled to your opinion and we all know you hold
> some strong ones. My experiments with this technique and Tameshigiri
> were conducted in Japan. The idea was first taught to me in English
> yes, but was confirmed again and again by my teachers in Japan. The
> language used for the most part was Japanese and the people involved
> Eishin Ryu swordsmen. I know it won't change your mind but may allow
> others to view on balance the two sides...

> Interesting -- but it still sounds like something
> that wasn't much of a
> historical practise. It might have been an Edo thing
> when they were able to deal
> with specialist swordsmen, but I really doubt that
> sort of thing was part of the
> original idea, when a kaishaku was just a guy
> helping the process along.
>
> Tony

> it might have been an Edo thing when they were able to deal
> with specialist swordsmen, but I really doubt that sort of thing was
> part of the
> original idea, when a kaishaku was just a guy helping the process
> along.
>
> Tony
> --
>
>