on suicide...

hello again,

i was wondering if i could trouble you with a question or two concerning 'seppuku' and suicide in japan,preferably during the time the samurai class existed.

i had read on a website (unfortunately i cannot seem to find the link on google) about the samurai,that seppuku consisted of slicing open the belly because according to buddhist belief,the spirit resided in the belly area of the body.as i have little to none information on buddhist beliefs,i can't say whether what i read is true or not.supposing this is true,i remember a previous post concerning seppuku for women,where it said that women could commit seppuku by slashing their throats if i'm not mistaken(is this limited to only women of samurai families or women before the meiji restoration or neither?).considering all this,i want to ask if the difference is simply because of religious beliefs or perhaps out of conveniency?

and secondly,were there any other 'honourable' ways to commit suicide apart from slicing open the belly?




"Like these blossoms,we all die..." - Katsumoto Moritsugu






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On Fri, 30 Jul 2004 12:23:05 -0700 (PDT), Kenshi Zeyさん wrote:

>i was wondering if i could trouble you with a question or two concerning
>'seppuku' and suicide in japan,preferably during the time the samurai class
>existed.

I'm sure that you'll get plenty of messages that talk about the
mystical side of seppuku. So I won't add yet another.

>considering all
>this,i want to ask if the difference is simply because of
>religious beliefs or perhaps out of conveniency?

It is convenience, which of course may have been couched in mystical
terms. It's apparently quite difficult to pull off slicing one's
belly open (I haven't tried it myself), even for a man. So on average,
based on physical strength, it's that much more difficult for a
woman.

>and secondly,were there any other 'honourable' ways to commit suicide apart
>from slicing open the belly?

Just about all of them, depending on the circumstances.

There are apparently cases of women doing seppuku historically - but
accepted wisdom is that they sliced their throat (or, more usually,
pierced their throat).

Alternatively, there is a common idea that when faced with
certain death, women would essentially fall on their sword - put a
blade up to their chest and fall forwards, plunging it into their
hearts.

Another common folk-truth is that women committed suicide in these
situations by biting off their tongues - though it's never been clear
to me exactly how this would lead to death, other than by slowly bleed
ing to death which could have been accomplished any other number of wa
ys.

Women are also said to have hanged themselves (kubi-tsuri), drown
themselves (nyuu-sui), or jumped off of cliffs (tobi-ori).

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Hey.
Although it wasn't my question, thanks for the enlightenment, Jay!
:-D

L8r
Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kenshi,

I did some extensive research on seppuku a little while ago, and the idea that slicing open the belly was symbolic of where the spirit resided is indeed true. The point was to reveal your "heart" and show that it was not black (meaning that you were honorable). And if I remember correctly, women opted to slit their throats rather than their bellies, simply because the act of seppuku was so utterly painful that a woman generally cannot tollerate the pain. Remeber, too, that this act is to be carried out without any emotion, or any sign of pain, or the act is all for naught. Taking this into consideration, and the fact that slitting your belly was a very slow death, women would choose the quicker, less painful method of suicide.

I hope that answers it! There are a few great books that can also help you along in your research (as well as a few websites), and I'd be happy to give you a short bibliography if you'd like. Just let me know!

-Meredith Zopf
Kenshi Zey <spectresinthefog@...> wrote:
hello again,

i was wondering if i could trouble you with a question or two concerning 'seppuku' and suicide in japan,preferably during the time the samurai class existed.

i had read on a website (unfortunately i cannot seem to find the link on google) about the samurai,that seppuku consisted of slicing open the belly because according to buddhist belief,the spirit resided in the belly area of the body.as i have little to none information on buddhist beliefs,i can't say whether what i read is true or not.supposing this is true,i remember a previous post concerning seppuku for women,where it said that women could commit seppuku by slashing their throats if i'm not mistaken(is this limited to only women of samurai families or women before the meiji restoration or neither?).considering all this,i want to ask if the difference is simply because of religious beliefs or perhaps out of conveniency?

and secondly,were there any other 'honourable' ways to commit suicide apart from slicing open the belly?




"Like these blossoms,we all die..." - Katsumoto Moritsugu






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As to the pain and discipline involved in seppuku... when the author of _The
Sailor Who Fell From Grace With The Sea_ (whose name, I am sorry to say, at
the moment eludes me) chose to end his life in protest against the
westernisation that came in the wake of WWII, he and his comrades took over
a television station and apparently televised his seppuku. As I have heard
it - and this is the place for experts to correct me - he wrapped a belt
around his knees to keep himself stationary for his second's finishing cut.
For all his discipline, focus, will and internal preparation, he apparently
bucked so much after he made his cut that his friend couldn't correctly hit
the neck, and it took several strokes. An inglorious and messy end for a
dedicated man.
This is one of those things that makes me intensely glad to be a gaijin, I
fear. I understand that the farmers and other classes took a rather similar
view of the matter, hence the reversal of the characters spelling 'seppuku'
into the pronunciation 'hara-kiri'.
If anyone can confirm or refute all this, I'll be pleased. But there's my
anecdotal history, for what it's worth.
Gereg

--- Silk Road School <silk.road.school@...>
wrote:

> This is one of those things that makes me intensely
> glad to be a gaijin, I
> fear.

Um, why? Being Japanese doesn't mean you're required
to commit seppuku.

You're thinking of Mishima Yukio, the author. It
wasn't at a television station, it was at Ichigaya,
the then military academy, now the headquarters of the
Japan Defense Agency (think the Japanese Pentagon).
I've stood in the spot where he did the deed. It
wasn't simply a protest, it was a botched and horribly
failed attempt to get the students to rise up in a
coup--they laughed at him, and he withdrew to attempt
his fairly botched suicide.





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I thought that hari-kari is actually the vulgar name of the blade used
to commit seppuku.

-Mike

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Silk Road School"
wrote:

> As to the pain and discipline involved in seppuku... when the author

of _The

> Sailor Who Fell From Grace With The Sea_ (whose name, I am sorry to

say, at

> the moment eludes me) chose to end his life in protest against the
> westernisation that came in the wake of WWII, he and his comrades

took over

> a television station and apparently televised his seppuku. As I have

heard

> it - and this is the place for experts to correct me - he wrapped a belt
> around his knees to keep himself stationary for his second's

finishing cut.

> For all his discipline, focus, will and internal preparation, he

apparently

> bucked so much after he made his cut that his friend couldn't

correctly hit

> the neck, and it took several strokes. An inglorious and messy end

for a

> dedicated man.
> This is one of those things that makes me intensely glad to be a

gaijin, I

> fear. I understand that the farmers and other classes took a rather

similar

> view of the matter, hence the reversal of the characters spelling

'seppuku'

> into the pronunciation 'hara-kiri'.
> If anyone can confirm or refute all this, I'll be pleased. But

there's my

> anecdotal history, for what it's worth.
> Gereg

emperornile wrote:

> I thought that hari-kari is actually the vulgar name of the blade used
> to commit seppuku.

First, it's "hara-kiri." Second, no. "Hara-kiri" is the Japanese reading of the
kanji (with them reversed to approximate Japanese word order, with the verb --
kiru, to cut -- after the object); the Chinese reading of the kanji -- in the
Chinese order -- is seppuku.

Seppuku is considered a more genteel and less plebean or vulgar term. Compare
the use in English of some French terms instead of regular English. Some
examples: "mutton" to replace the good old Anglo-Saxon "sheep meat"; "It has a
certain 'je ne sais quois'" rather than "it has a certain 'I don't know what'";
or "that was its raison d'être" rather than "that was its reason for being."

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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--- emperornile <iaijutsu@...> wrote:

> I thought that hari-kari is actually the vulgar name
> of the blade used
> to commit seppuku.
>
> -Mike

No.

It's "hara-kiri", not "hari kari" or even Harry Caray.
�� "hara" is stomach, ���@"kiri" is to cut. Read in
that order, �����@it's "hara kiri".

If you flip the order, ����, it's "seppuku". ��
"setsu" and �� being "fuku", which in combination
become "seppuku".

Has nothing to do with the weapon being used.




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''The
Sailor Who Fell From Grace With The Sea_ (whose name, I am sorry to say, at
the moment eludes me) chose to end his life in protest against the
westernisation that came in the wake of WWII, he and his comrades took over
a television station and apparently televised his seppuku.''

Mishima Yukio the greatest japanese writer.
An army headquarter not a television station.

http://www.vill.yamanakako.yamanashi.jp/bungaku/mishima/index-e.html

he wrapped a belt
around his knees to keep himself stationary for his second's finishing cut.
For all his discipline, focus, will and internal preparation, he apparently
bucked so much after he made his cut that his friend couldn't correctly hit
the neck, and it took several strokes.''
Mishima did a perfect cut 17cm but his second Morita did not cut his head
correctly.Koga took the sword and did it then.Morita tried to commit seppuku
right after but could not perform the cut and gave signal to be immediately
beheaded.

''An inglorious and messy end for a
dedicated man.''
No way!

''This is one of those things that makes me intensely glad to be a gaijin,
''
Mishima is the person who makes me regret mostly that I am a gaijin.

On suicide in Japan a great not well known book:
Maurice Pinguet:Voluntary death in Japan.

Tenno Heika Banzai

--
NEU: WLAN-Router f�r 0,- EUR* - auch f�r DSL-Wechsler!
GMX DSL = superg�nstig & kabellos http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

if your intereste din Hara Kiri I would suggest this
book

Hara Kiri Japanese ritual suicide by Jack Seward

isbn 0-8048-0231-9

paul

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

>
> --- emperornile <iaijutsu@...> wrote:
>
> > I thought that hari-kari is actually the vulgar
> name
> > of the blade used
> > to commit seppuku.
> >
> > -Mike
>
> No.
>
> It's "hara-kiri", not "hari kari" or even Harry
> Caray.
> �� "hara" is stomach, ���@"kiri" is to cut. Read in
> that order, �����@it's "hara kiri".
>
> If you flip the order, ����, it's "seppuku". ��
> "setsu" and �� being "fuku", which in combination
> become "seppuku".
>
> Has nothing to do with the weapon being used.
>
>
>
>
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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter

>
> Has nothing to do with the weapon being used.

Unless the blade is really dull, in which case it would be • "j‚è.

:P

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
> >
> > Has nothing to do with the weapon being used.
>
>
> Unless the blade is really dull, in which case it would be • "j‚è.
>
> :P

hara-yaburi -- • "j‚è - Which didnt seem to transfer well. I tell
ya, yahoo can put a real damper on jokes sometimes.

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"
> > listowner@s...> wrote:
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate
> Ledbetter
> > >
> > > Has nothing to do with the weapon being used.
> >
> >
> > Unless the blade is really dull, in which case it
> would be ��"j��.
> >
> > :P
>
> hara-yaburi -- ��"j�� - Which didnt seem to transfer
> well. I tell
> ya, yahoo can put a real damper on jokes sometimes.

Huh? I'm confused about two things, neither of which
is your actual joke--seems like you replied to me
once, and then a second time to clarify--and I didn't
get the first message. Also, for some reason, the
characters aren't coming out correctly, even though my
encoding is set correctly, or it seems to be.




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On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 05:22:45 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:

>get the first message. Also, for some reason, the
>characters aren't coming out correctly, even though my
>encoding is set correctly, or it seems to be.

Nate,
I've noticed that alot about Yahoo groups. The main problem
seems to be posting from the Yahoo website (as opposed to composing
an email in an email program and sending it to the mailing list, like
I'm doing now).

I think the main problem is that even if you can see Japanese on
your screen, Yahoo won't handle it properly. The person who is posting
has to make sure that they change the dialog box at the bottom of
the screen (the one that says "What language is this post in?") from
English to Japanese.

Even after doing that I think that Yahoo is notoriously bad at this. I
think that the only real way to solve it is to send an email from an
email program.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> Nate,
> I've noticed that alot about Yahoo groups. The main
> problem
> seems to be posting from the Yahoo website (as
> opposed to composing
> an email in an email program and sending it to the
> mailing list, like
> I'm doing now).
>
> I think the main problem is that even if you can see
> Japanese on
> your screen, Yahoo won't handle it properly. The
> person who is posting
> has to make sure that they change the dialog box at
> the bottom of
> the screen (the one that says "What language is this
> post in?") from
> English to Japanese.
>
> Even after doing that I think that Yahoo is
> notoriously bad at this. I
> think that the only real way to solve it is to send
> an email from an
> email program.

Jay--

I always access the list through email--never through
the website. The issue is that my encoding at home was
somehow set to "Japanese-Shift JIS", and not
"Japanese-Autoselect" like normal. For whatever
reason, it wouldn't change to Autoselect when I tried
to change it--it kept reverting back. Hence, Kitsuno's
"hara" came up correctly, but the second set of
characters was just random katakana.

The other issue was that somehow, Kitsuno's first post
got sent about 7 hours after his second. Normally
things get posted late if someone has to "check" them
and say they are okay--since Kitsuno's a moderator
himself, that's not the issue. It was just....weird.



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On Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:55:24 -0700 (PDT), Nate Ledbetterさん wrote:

>I always access the list through email--never through
>the website.

Huh. Well, I learn once again the lesson that I should keep my mouth
shut when I'm not really sure of the circumstances. I wonder how many
more times I'll have to learn this lesson before it sinks in...

>Kitsuno's
>"hara" came up correctly, but the second set of
>characters was just random katakana.

The whole thing came up as "moji-bake" for me. I couldn't read any
of Kitsuno's kanji. When I look at the header of his email, it says
that the email was encoded as:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

This is not a kanji-friendly encoding.

>The other issue was that somehow, Kitsuno's first post
>got sent about 7 hours after his second. ...
>... It was just....weird.

I agree. Not sure what caused the whole thing. Oh well - another
one of life's little mysteries, I guess. :)

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Just to elaborate a little, I think hara-kiri was somthing of a slag usage.
'Belly-slitting' is not a very dignified description, and I've seen some
people get quite offended at usage of the term for something they still
consider to be very important.

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Oyakata wrote:

>
> >The other issue was that somehow, Kitsuno's first post
> >got sent about 7 hours after his second. ...
> >... It was just....weird.
>
> I agree. Not sure what caused the whole thing. Oh well - another
> one of life's little mysteries, I guess. :)
>

Like I said, the joke was lost in translation. :(