Difference between Shogun and Daimyo.

Was just wondering if this is correct. A daimyo ruled over a province
and reported to the shogun, the military leader in Japan during the
Edo period. During the Meiji restauration, the institution of the
daimyo was abolished and the provinces were replaced by prefectures.
While The shogun was the highest Japanese military ruler during the
Kamakura and Edo period. Although the emperor was officially the head
of the state, the shogun rulers had the actual power until the end of
the Edo period

zevlord wrote:

> Was just wondering if this is correct. A daimyo ruled over a province
> and reported to the shogun, the military leader in Japan during the
> Edo period. During the Meiji restauration, the institution of the
> daimyo was abolished and the provinces were replaced by prefectures.
> While The shogun was the highest Japanese military ruler during the
> Kamakura and Edo period. Although the emperor was officially the head
> of the state, the shogun rulers had the actual power until the end of
> the Edo period

Kind of. The only thing really wrong is that daimyo didn't run provinces, as a
rule very few had an entire province or more. There were only sixty-some
provinces in Japan, and well over 200 daimyo at the end of the Tokugawa shogunate.


Tony
--

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--- zevlord <LordZev@...> wrote:

> Was just wondering if this is correct. A daimyo
> ruled over a province
> and reported to the shogun, the military leader in
> Japan during the
> Edo period.

Sort of, but not really--it's not like the colonel
reporting to a general or anything as formal as that.
Some daimyo (fudai daimyo) were hereditary retainers
of the Tokugawa house, and as such yes, they
"reported" to the Shogunate. Some had no allegiance to
the Tokugawa at all (the Tozai daimyo) and paid the
shogunate nominal due, but ruled their province like
they saw fit.

It's not like the daimyo was the appointed governor,
really, and was responsible for the province to the
Shogun, necessarily--more like he owned the province,
and had to listen to the Shogunate and uphold it's
decrees, but more or less could do what he wanted
(within limits) in his own domains.

Make any sense?


During the Meiji restauration, the

> institution of the
> daimyo was abolished and the provinces were replaced
> by prefectures.

Essentially, yes.

> While The shogun was the highest Japanese military
> ruler during the
> Kamakura and Edo period. Although the emperor was
> officially the head
> of the state, the shogun rulers had the actual power
> until the end of
> the Edo period

Um, yeah, sort of--though often times whoever the
Shogun's ADVISER was had the real power...in some ways
(later Ashikaga, later Tokugawa, and the entire Hojo
Shikken period) the Shogunate was just as much a
puppet framework as the Imperial system.



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Greetings:

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord" wrote:
> Was just wondering if this is correct. A daimyo ruled over a
province
> and reported to the shogun, the military leader in Japan during the
> Edo period. During the Meiji restauration, the institution of the
> daimyo was abolished and the provinces were replaced by
prefectures.
> While The shogun was the highest Japanese military ruler during the
> Kamakura and Edo period. Although the emperor was officially the
head
> of the state, the shogun rulers had the actual power until the end
of
> the Edo period

I would say that a daimyo ruled over a "daimyo land", that could be a
province, several provinces, part of a province, part of several
provinces.
And to the extend of my very small knowledge, I believe that there
were no Daimyos in the kamakura period. There were Shugos at that
time. Am I wrong?
Indeed I think that the Daimyo is a title that born to be used by
fully independent lords during the sengoku jidai, although I am clear
that in the Edo period they served like some kind of governors, but
more like princes, counts and duches in the european countries.
Repeat, that is as long a I know, forgive me if I said something
wrong.

Rodrigo Juri A.

Well, there were daimyo as far back as the 11th Century, although they were very different from the daimyo of the Sengoku or Edo jidai. The wealthier member of the rural peasantry were called 'myoshu' (literally 'head of a named rice paddy'). When the myoshu moved on to acquire more fields they became 'daimyo' (literally 'great name'). Their duties included collecting dues for their lord, but by the late 11th Century, many were making the rural situation even more complicated by placing their land under the indirect supervision of a distant lord (eg; a Fujiwara noble or one of the larger Kenmon temples). These myoshu/daimyo were the foundations of the latter jizamurai/ kokujin (basically the lower echelons of the military class).
M.Lorimer

rjuri <rjuri@...> wrote:
Greetings:

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "zevlord" wrote:
> Was just wondering if this is correct. A daimyo ruled over a
province
> and reported to the shogun, the military leader in Japan during the
> Edo period. During the Meiji restauration, the institution of the
> daimyo was abolished and the provinces were replaced by
prefectures.
> While The shogun was the highest Japanese military ruler during the
> Kamakura and Edo period. Although the emperor was officially the
head
> of the state, the shogun rulers had the actual power until the end
of
> the Edo period

I would say that a daimyo ruled over a "daimyo land", that could be a
province, several provinces, part of a province, part of several
provinces.
And to the extend of my very small knowledge, I believe that there
were no Daimyos in the kamakura period. There were Shugos at that
time. Am I wrong?
Indeed I think that the Daimyo is a title that born to be used by
fully independent lords during the sengoku jidai, although I am clear
that in the Edo period they served like some kind of governors, but
more like princes, counts and duches in the european countries.
Repeat, that is as long a I know, forgive me if I said something
wrong.

Rodrigo Juri A.



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Thanks a lot by this quick mending of my mistake.
This information raises a question of my own. When the daimyos took
this name for them, or whoever that chose it, they were thinking in
that figure of the 11th century? Or was just the "great name" thing?
(Sorry if that thing was discussed earlier).

Rodrigo Juri A.

PS: I erased the former messages in order to limit the extension of
the post. If someone thinks that this is not right, please tell me.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Michael Lorimer
wrote:

> Well, there were daimyo as far back as the 11th Century, although

they were very different from the daimyo of the Sengoku or Edo jidai.
The wealthier member of the rural peasantry were called 'myoshu'
(literally 'head of a named rice paddy'). When the myoshu moved on to
acquire more fields they became 'daimyo' (literally 'great name').
Their duties included collecting dues for their lord, but by the late
11th Century, many were making the rural situation even more
complicated by placing their land under the indirect supervision of a
distant lord (eg; a Fujiwara noble or one of the larger Kenmon
temples). These myoshu/daimyo were the foundations of the latter
jizamurai/ kokujin (basically the lower echelons of the military
class).

> M.Lorimer
>

have been removed]

By the mid 14th Century, the Shugo were given the authority to raise the 'military' tax, claim 'hanzei' (half of all residents' rents), plus exact the 'hyoromai' (a tax imposed upon absentee landholders; a situation upon most 'shoen' (private, often tax-immune, estates). With this huge pool of resources, and the decision during the tenure of Ashikaga Yoshimitsu to allow the hereditary holding of the post of Shugo. Pronounced 'taimai' in the 14th Century, these figures with their local networks of warriors and landholders/workers (admittedly not necessarily exclusive groups), emerged as what are called by historians 'shugo-daimyo'; a precursor/forbear to the Sengokudaimyo, and the later daimyo of the Edojidai.
M.Lorimer

rjuri <rjuri@...> wrote:
Thanks a lot by this quick mending of my mistake.
This information raises a question of my own. When the daimyos took
this name for them, or whoever that chose it, they were thinking in
that figure of the 11th century? Or was just the "great name" thing?
(Sorry if that thing was discussed earlier).

Rodrigo Juri A.

PS: I erased the former messages in order to limit the extension of
the post. If someone thinks that this is not right, please tell me.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Michael Lorimer
wrote:

> Well, there were daimyo as far back as the 11th Century, although

they were very different from the daimyo of the Sengoku or Edo jidai.
The wealthier member of the rural peasantry were called 'myoshu'
(literally 'head of a named rice paddy'). When the myoshu moved on to
acquire more fields they became 'daimyo' (literally 'great name').
Their duties included collecting dues for their lord, but by the late
11th Century, many were making the rural situation even more
complicated by placing their land under the indirect supervision of a
distant lord (eg; a Fujiwara noble or one of the larger Kenmon
temples). These myoshu/daimyo were the foundations of the latter
jizamurai/ kokujin (basically the lower echelons of the military
class).

> M.Lorimer
>

have been removed]




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zevlord <LordZev@...> wrote:
Was just wondering if this is correct. A daimyo ruled over a province
and reported to the shogun, the military leader in Japan during the
Edo period. During the Meiji restauration, the institution of the
daimyo was abolished and the provinces were replaced by prefectures.
While The shogun was the highest Japanese military ruler during the
Kamakura and Edo period. Although the emperor was officially the head
of the state, the shogun rulers had the actual power until the end of
the Edo period

Hello guys! Thanks to all of you who makes this forum very informative with regards to the history of samurai and the surrounding isssues about them.I don't to want to pose as knowing as much with regards to this subject.I know a little and that's why I participated in this group because of my passion and interest about the samurai as a peculiar class of Japan.I am glad that there are many knowledgeable participants in our disscussion group.

Still however I would like to share the little knowledge I have in connection to our poster's questions and perhaps some other time I will post my own questions.I have the confidence that it will solicit satisfying answers.

With regards to Shogun/Daimyo distinction;I've read some of the reply to that question and I dont want to be redundant in repeating the info that have already been given.To the best of my knowledge, what I know about the Shogun is that it is title conferred by the imperial court to a military leader during the Heian period;its full title is 'sei tai shogun' which literally means 'barbarian-quelling-great-general'.The first recipient of this title was Otomo Otomaro.It was given to him by Emperor Kammu when he was sent to campaign against the Ainu in the northern portion of Honshu.He later handed back his sword of office after he completely routed the Ainu rebels.This title assumed a different role and meaning when the Minamoto Yoritomo,after his complete victory against the Taira, was awarded of this title by the court after Go-Shirakawa's death.The title became hereditary to the leaders of the Minamoto family.This was during the Kamakura & Muromachi periods(about 12th to
15thcentury).The later period of this era was characterized by the ineptitude of the shogunate to rule effectively that new brand of leaders emerged in Japan;they were called 'Daimyo' which literally means 'large-land owners'(later the title came to mean 'great name').They were called as such because daimyo claim to posses the territories that they rule & govern.At first, daimyo were appointed by the shoguns to the outlying provinces as administrator to the bakufu(military) system of the shogunate;they were called 'shugo-daimyo' and in a sense they are answerable to the shogun.But the daimyo at the later part of tha Ashikaga rule during the Muromachi which is also the period of 'sengoko-jidai'(literally,a period of a country at war) were entirely different from the shugo-daimyo of the bakufu system.These new brand of territorial or local leaders competed and fought against each other to protect and to some extent extend their control and territories.The daimyo became the protectors
of the interests of the compact units that they rule.They also have retainers and council of elders who help them in their government.

At the beginning of the 16th century,there were three great contemporary daimyo(s) who became powerful enough to subjugate all the other daimyo to their leadership.They were allies in their campaign against all the other daimyo.It signalled the ending of the 'sengoku'.These three were Oda Nobunaga,Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Ieasu Tokugawa;all of them were great generals in their own right.They formed alliance to bring Japan to gradual unification.Nobunaga was assasinated by one of his generals but Hideyoshi continued what Nobunaga began.After he avenged the death of Nobunaga he worked to establish firm control of his rein in power.Though a brillant military genius Hideyoshi could not claim the title of shogun because of his humble origins.Actually he is a peasant from Totomi,also the province of Nobunaga;and became foot soldier in Nobunaga's army.He was promoted to become a military commander because of his spectacular brillance.Before his death he appointed Ieasu as one of the regents
to his young son Hideyori.

When Hideyoshi died it marked another beginning in the fortune of the office of the Shogun.The Tokugawa Ieasu did not keep up to the promise of becoming a protector to the heir of Hideyoshi.Ieasu being too concerned of the supremacy of his family against all the other daimyos when he led an army with a coalition of western daimyo, attacked the eastern daimyo under another regent appointed by Hideyoshi for his son named Ishida.This took place in the battle of Sekigahara.After this battle where he emerged as the victor,Ieasu took for himself the tiltle of shogun.This did not pose any difficulty for him since he is of a Minamoto lineage.He obliged the court to sanction his claim.The title was later passed to his son and down to his descendants until the late 19th century.The offfice of the Shogun was later abolished under the Meiji restoration.

It was during the Tokugawa period that the daimyo were classified into two categories: the 'fudai-daimyo' & the 'to-zama daimyo'.The former literally means 'heridetary-vassal lords' which implies that they were a family of former Tokugawa vassals and more trusted daimyo while the latter literally means 'outside lords' which implies that they belong to a class of daimyo who have not yet gained the complete trust of the Tokugawa.Fudai daimyo became the councillors and senior officials of the new shogunate.Some daimyo of this period are accountable to the shogun but not not necessarily all of them as some are labeled as 'outsider daimyo' which could only mean that their allegiance to the shogun is still held as questionable.But at the later part of the Tokugawa also called the Edo period this distinction became gradually blurred as they cohabited together in Edo and as time wore on, they finally settled amicably then through intermarriage,adoption and links which they may have acquired
they relegated their different interests to familial ties and tacit or informal agreement.The Edo period under the Tokugawa lasted for two and a-half centuries of relative peace.
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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Solomon,jr Bacarizas"
wrote:

>
> It was during the Tokugawa period that the daimyo were classified

into two categories: the 'fudai-daimyo' & the 'to-zama daimyo'.The
former literally means 'heridetary-vassal lords' which implies that
they were a family of former Tokugawa vassals and more trusted
daimyo while the latter literally means 'outside lords' which
implies that they belong to a class of daimyo who have not yet
gained the complete trust of the Tokugawa.Fudai daimyo became the

There were also the "shinpan-daimyo", which referred to those
families directly related to the Tokugawa, such as the various
branches of the Matsudaira.

The fudai daimyo were descended from families who were allied to the
Tokugawa before Sekigahara, such as the Ii and the Sakakibara.

hi,
my name is Leon & i just wanted someone to tell me about a character, iam not f he have a samurai history, all i know about him is that his name is Sanada Yukimura & he Sereved Shingen Takeda.
any information would do,
thank you

naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Solomon,jr Bacarizas"
wrote:

>
> It was during the Tokugawa period that the daimyo were classified

into two categories: the 'fudai-daimyo' & the 'to-zama daimyo'.The
former literally means 'heridetary-vassal lords' which implies that
they were a family of former Tokugawa vassals and more trusted
daimyo while the latter literally means 'outside lords' which
implies that they belong to a class of daimyo who have not yet
gained the complete trust of the Tokugawa.Fudai daimyo became the

There were also the "shinpan-daimyo", which referred to those
families directly related to the Tokugawa, such as the various
branches of the Matsudaira.

The fudai daimyo were descended from families who were allied to the
Tokugawa before Sekigahara, such as the Ii and the Sakakibara.



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Sanada Yukimura would really have been to young to serve Takeda Shingen. His father (Sanada Masayuki/Moto Kihei) served Shingen, but Yukimura wasn't born until 1567, and Shingen was killed in 1573.
After the death of Yukitaka (1574), and his son's (Nobutsuna) death at Nagashino (1575), Masayuki took over the Sanada leadership.
In 1585 Yukimura was sent to the Uesugi at Kasugayama (in Echigo) as hostage, with his elder brother delivered to Tokugawa Ieyasu at Hamamatsu.
Then, in 1590 Yukimura served with the Sanada, under the command of Toyotomi Hideyoshi, at Odawara.
M.Lorimer

Squall Lionheart <blue_moon_dragon1@...> wrote:
hi,
my name is Leon & i just wanted someone to tell me about a character, iam not f he have a samurai history, all i know about him is that his name is Sanada Yukimura & he Sereved Shingen Takeda.
any information would do,
thank you

naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Solomon,jr Bacarizas"
wrote:

>
> It was during the Tokugawa period that the daimyo were classified

into two categories: the 'fudai-daimyo' & the 'to-zama daimyo'.The
former literally means 'heridetary-vassal lords' which implies that
they were a family of former Tokugawa vassals and more trusted
daimyo while the latter literally means 'outside lords' which
implies that they belong to a class of daimyo who have not yet
gained the complete trust of the Tokugawa.Fudai daimyo became the

There were also the "shinpan-daimyo", which referred to those
families directly related to the Tokugawa, such as the various
branches of the Matsudaira.

The fudai daimyo were descended from families who were allied to the
Tokugawa before Sekigahara, such as the Ii and the Sakakibara.



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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Squall Lionheart
wrote:

> hi,
> my name is Leon & i just wanted someone to tell me about a

character, iam not f he have a samurai history, all i know about him
is that his name is Sanada Yukimura & he Sereved Shingen Takeda.

> any information would do,
> thank you

Judging by the way you've written the names, you may have seen him
in the game "Samurai Warriors" by Koei. Here's some summarised
information about him:

Sanada Nobushige (Yukimura) was born in 1567, the second son of
Sanada Masayuki. Takeda Shingen died in 1573, and the Takeda clan
fell to a Toyotomi/Tokugawa invasion in 1582.

One of the (many) errors in the game has Yukimura fighting at
Nagashino (1575), which seems unlikely, given that he was eight
years old at the time.

After the fall of the Takeda clan, Sanada Masayuki allied with the
Hojo and became daimyo of Ueda. They later submitted to the
Toyotomi, taking part in the seige of the Hojo's Odawara castle in
1590.

In 1600 during the Sekigahara campaign, Masayuki and Yukimura were
beseiged in Ueda by Tokugawa Hidetada. 38,000 Tokugawa beseiged 3000
Sanada in the castle, but failed to take it, resulting in Hidetada
missing the battle of Sekigahara itself (much to Ieyasu's fury).
Both were exiled to Kudoyama, from where Yukimura made his way to
Osaka to take part in both the Winter and Summer campaigns. During
all of this, Yukimura's elder brother Nobuyuki (who had earlier been
sent as a hostage to the Tokugawa) fought for Ieyasu at the battle
of Sekigahara itself.

In the Winter campaign, Yukimura led his men at the Sanada-maru (or
the Sanada barbican) which saw some of the fiercest fighting of the
battle, where they held off the "Red Devils" (the aka-oni) of the
Ii, with the help of Kimura Shigenari.

In the Summer campaign, Yukimura was again one of the leading
defenders along with Mori Katsunaga, Goto Matabei, Kimura and
others. After a lot of heavy fighting (Yukimura's troops were on the
front line) Yukimura sat down to rest (some say he slumped down on a
campstool in despair, knowing that his cause was lost) and was
confronted by an enemy samurai, Nishio Nizaemon. Too tired to fight,
he took off his helmet, and was beheaded.

--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:

> Sanada Nobushige (Yukimura) was born in 1567, the
> second son of
> Sanada Masayuki. Takeda Shingen died in 1573, and
> the Takeda clan
> fell to a Toyotomi/Tokugawa invasion in 1582.

Not to be picky, but to be picky, it was an
Oda/Tokugawa invasion (aided and abetted by the more
survival-focused Takeda relatives). Not only was
Hideyoshi still using the name "Hashiba" and not
"Toyotomi", he was clear across Honshu fighting the
Mori at the time.

I know you probably know this, Nao--this is more for
the benefit of the person asking the original
question. Don't want them to get confused.

During

> all of this, Yukimura's elder brother Nobuyuki (who
> had earlier been
> sent as a hostage to the Tokugawa) fought for Ieyasu
> at the battle
> of Sekigahara itself.

I always find this interesting--especially during
Sekigahara and so forth, there seemed to be a lot of
"well, I'll fight on this side, and brother, you fight
on that side, so one of us will have to be on the
winning side, and our family will continue."

Pretty pragmatic, I suppose.



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Solomon,jr Bacarizas wrote:

> its full title is 'sei tai shogun' which literally
> means 'barbarian-quelling-great-general'.

sei-I-tai-shôgun. The "i" there is the "barbarian" part.

> The first recipient of this title
> was Otomo Otomaro.It was given to him by Emperor Kammu when he was sent to
> campaign against the Ainu in the northern portion of Honshu.

The Emishi, not the Ainu. There is rather serious debate as
to who made up the Emishi, and current scholarship seems to suggest that
"Emishi" were essentially "Japanese who have not accepted the emperor's authority."

> He later handed
> back his sword of office after he completely routed the Ainu rebels.

If a group has never been under the authority of someone, how can they be
"rebels"? :)

> At the beginning of the 16th century,there were three great contemporary
> daimyo(s) who became powerful enough to subjugate all the other daimyo to
> their leadership.They were allies in their campaign against all the other
> daimyo.

Vastly oversimplifying the situation. Ieyasu and Hideyoshi were clearly in
vassalage positions to Nobunaga (allies and vassals are very different things);
and Ieyasu chose to put himself in a vassalage relationship to Hideyoshi rather
than keep fighting him. The choice was vassalage or enmity; there was no
alliance option.

> It signalled the ending of the 'sengoku'.These three were Oda
> Nobunaga,Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Ieasu Tokugawa;all of them were great
> generals in their own right.They formed alliance to bring Japan to gradual
> unification.

Not really accurate, I'm afraid.

> Nobunaga was assasinated by one of his generals but Hideyoshi
> continued what Nobunaga began.After he avenged the death of Nobunaga he
> worked to establish firm control of his rein in power.Though a brillant
> military genius Hideyoshi could not claim the title of shogun because of his
> humble origins.

Ironically, the title of Kanpaku -- which he did take -- is vastly more exalted
than Shogun. At least in terms of imperial connection and relationship with the
throne.

> Actually he is a peasant from Totomi,also the province of
> Nobunaga;and became foot soldier in Nobunaga's army.He was promoted to become
> a military commander because of his spectacular brillance.Before his death he
> appointed Ieasu as one of the! regents to his young son Hideyori.
>
> When Hideyoshi died it marked another beginning in the fortune of the office
> of the Shogun.The Tokugawa Ieasu did not keep up to the promise of becoming a
> protector to the heir of Hideyoshi.Ieasu being too concerned of the supremacy
> of his family against all the other daimyos when he led an army with a
> coalition of western daimyo, attacked the eastern daimyo under another regent
> appointed by Hideyoshi for his son named Ishida.

Again, not quite. Ieyasu was the leader of the EASTERN alliance. Mitsunari was
calling the shots (although the nominal leader was Môri Motonari) of the Western
alliance. And Mitsunari had never been one of the regents.

Hideyoshi appointed a council of five elders (the go-tairô) to run things and
take care of Hideyori and see to his later rule. These five were the most
powerful daimyô in Japan. He also appointed a council of five officials (the
go-bugyô) to deal with other matters. These were people Hideyoshi generally
trusted, but didn't have the political or financial sway than the elders did.
Mitsunari was one of the latter.

> This took place in the battle
> of Sekigahara.After this battle where he emerged as the victor,Ieasu took for
> himself the tiltle of shogun.

No, he didn't. The emperor appointed him shôgun in 1603 (three years after the
battle). You can't TAKE the title of shôgun any more than any other
imperially-awarded office or rank.

> This did not pose any difficulty for him since
> he is of a Minamoto lineage.

Well, maybe. The fact of his multiple genealogies -- with different backgrounds
(Taira, Minamoto, Fujiwara, what have you) is well documented. In this case, the
Minamoto one was more useful, and became the "official" one. :)

He obliged the court to sanction his claim.The

> title was later passed to his son and down to his descendants until the late
> 19th century.The offfice of the Shogun was later abolished under the Meiji
> restoration.
>
> It was during the Tokugawa period that the daimyo were classified into two
> categories: the 'fudai-daimyo' & the 'to-zama daimyo'.

If I'm not mistaken, Hideyoshi also used that distinction to identify those who
were his vassals and those who were his Vassals -- people who'd been with him
since day one vs. those who joined up later.

> The former literally
> means 'heridetary-vassal lords' which implies that they were a family of
> former Tokugawa vassals and more trusted daimyo while the latter literally
> means 'outside lords' which implies that they belong to a class of daimyo who
> have not yet gained the complete trust of the Tokugawa.

Specifically, fudai were those who were vassals *before* Sekigahara, and
everyone else -- even those who had been allies then but not vassals -- were
tozama. There's also a third category of daimyô: shinpan. These were daimyo who
were related by blood to the Tokugawa/Matsudaira house. A small, but very
influential, group, the shinpan.

The Tokugawa house itself was broken into three branches: the Kii, Owari, and
Mito Tokugawa (the "go-sanke"), which were set to provide an heir for the
shogunal seat if the main line of Ieyasu's son Hidetada failed to produce an
heir. A few times (including the last shôgun), the heir came from one of the
branches. (In fact, one branch itself branched off to form a further three
sub-houses.)

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

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--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:

> calling the shots (although the nominal leader was Môri Motonari)

of the Western

Mori Terumoto, rather than Mori Motonari

:-)

naomasa298 wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
> wrote:
>
>
>>calling the shots (although the nominal leader was Môri Motonari)
>
> of the Western
>
> Mori Terumoto, rather than Mori Motonari

Hey, three out of four kanji. :)


Thanks for the correction on that one. I really shouldn't post before hitting
the coffee...

Tony

--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Solomon,jr Bacarizas wrote:

Though a brillant

> > military genius Hideyoshi could not claim the
> title of shogun because of his
> > humble origins.
>
> Ironically, the title of Kanpaku -- which he did
> take -- is vastly more exalted
> than Shogun. At least in terms of imperial
> connection and relationship with the
> throne.

And I find it doubtful that he could't have taken the
title of Shogun because he wasn't of "Minamoto"
blood--neither was Oda Nobunaga, and he was offered
the title by members of the Court.

> > Actually he is a peasant from Totomi,also the
> province of
> > Nobunaga;and became foot soldier in Nobunaga's
> army.He was promoted to become
> > a military commander because of his spectacular
> brillance.

Um, no, it's well documented that he was from
Nakamura, a village in Owari, Nobunaga's home
province. Currently Nakamura is a district in the city
of Nagoya. Many of Hideyoshi's later vassals,
including Kato Kiyomasa, are also from Nakamura.

> Again, not quite. Ieyasu was the leader of the
> EASTERN alliance. Mitsunari was
> calling the shots (although the nominal leader was
> M�ri Motonari) of the Western
> alliance. And Mitsunari had never been one of the
> regents.

TOny, wouldn't that be Terumoto? Motonari was dead,
right?

> > This did not pose any difficulty for him since
> > he is of a Minamoto lineage.
>
> Well, maybe. The fact of his multiple genealogies --
> with different backgrounds
> (Taira, Minamoto, Fujiwara, what have you) is well
> documented. In this case, the
> Minamoto one was more useful, and became the
> "official" one. :)

Tony, why do you think he went with the Minamoto bio
and the title of Shogun, as opposed to following the
Nobunaga/Hideyoshi pattern of more "courtly" ranks
like Dajo Daijin and Kampaku?

I'm supposing because he wanted to remain separated
from the Court, having seen what it did to the
Ashikaga, but that's just supposition.

Nate




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Well, thanks a lot Ton! for bringing to my attention all of your quibbles and also for correcting me of my inaccuracies.I appreciate it a lot! Yeah! you are all correct in almost every point, except about Mori Motonari(would have been Terumoto).As I check again my references I found myself to be so uncareful to give a double checking to every detail I posted.I understand that you meant no any intention to embarrass but for the benefit of all those who'll happen to read what we post in response to our poster's question it is just right to rectify any spotted mistakes in the details given.I learned a great deal here.I should have read again and again the materials I have before I would give my contributions.Though I'm tempted to give justifications for saying what I've said with regards to the issues of titles,I realized that just any issues whether they be political or what,there could be no end to a number of resolutions that scholars or historians give.Whether a shogun is a title
that no one can claim except it be given by the imperial court or a person must be of Minamoto,Ashikaga or what,are issues that could as well amount to a never ending speculative assumptions.We know that the court during those times that we referred to lost a de facto power to be considered as actually giving any preponderance to the position that they conferred to powerful individuals.Hope I wont be wrong again to assume that the sanctions to the positions they confer were just mere formalities to legitimize the authority of the persons concerned.But whether a powerful individual is sanctioned by the court or not,the strength of their rule & authority still rests with their military and political acumen.But still I do not omit the fact that the throne is still a veritable symbol of Japanese unity invested with prestige & ceremonial authority.Also,as to which is a more exalted position;the Shogun or the Kampaku is a subject that's also surrounded with subjective issues.Again please
correct me if I'm off the mark;the title of Kampaku were once the title attached to the head of the Fujiwara & its power lasted as long as the Fujawara hegemony lasted.The Fujiwara virtually ruled dictatorially by acting as the power behind the throne installing emperors of their choice and forcing others to abdicate as they saw fit.But during the reign of the cloistered emperors beginning from Go-Sanjo, who did not submit to this arrangement it dealt a powerful blow to Fujiwara dominance from which they never recovered.Then began the feudal system when another form of leadership emerged.I'm referring to the establishment of the Shogunate after a long struggle between the two powerful military houses, the Minamoto and the Taira.Well the title of Kampaku still exists but just as the center of power didn't issue from the court any longer,and so also was the corresponding privilege of this once powerful office.I wonder why Hideyoshi could have not become a Shogun.I just stated that he
is not of a Minamoto birth & didn't have a courlty family background, but why he accepted the title of Kampaku, he is not a Fujiwara either(now I'm not aware if there are Kampaku's other than the Fujiwara excepting Hideyoshi, though I'm aware that the word simply means a regent to an adult emperor;please tell me if there are) .Is it not only for political exigency that he chose the title Kampaku and not Shogun?Then does it already mean that Kampaku is more exalted because it is a title that has closer link to the court? But then again we have to consider that the court doesn't held sway to the political life of Japan during that period.And perhaps most of us are familiar that after Hideyoshi,the title of Kampaku has no more actual power.Still the emperor was the ruler 'de jure' but 'de facto' rulership fell to the hand of the Shogun.

Thanks for all your concerns to accuracy and detail,please bear with us who may have been careless as to even just minor point of details.With a little amount of knowledge that you have you just dont know how far your ignorance will carry you along once you try to share the meager knowledge that you possess,but that's how we actually journey towards learning.First we admit our ignorance,but then after we've known a lot we realize how much we still do not know a lot of things unless someone will point that out to us.

Will be glad to read more from you!! :- )

"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

Solomon wrote:

> This took place in the battle
> of Sekigahara.After this battle where he emerged as the victor,Ieasu took for
> himself the tiltle of shogun.

No, he didn't. The emperor appointed him shôgun in 1603 (three years after the
battle). You can't TAKE the title of shôgun any more than any other
imperially-awarded office or rank.

> This did not pose any difficulty for him since
> he is of a Minamoto lineage.

Well, maybe. The fact of his multiple genealogies -- with different backgrounds
(Taira, Minamoto, Fujiwara, what have you) is well documented. In this case, the
Minamoto one was more useful, and became the "official" one. :)

He obliged the court to sanction his claim.The

> title was later passed to his son and down to his descendants until the late
> 19th century.The offfice of the Shogun was later abolished under the Meiji
> restoration.
>
> It was during the Tokugawa period that the daimyo were classified into two
> categories: the 'fudai-daimyo' & the 'to-zama daimyo'.

If I'm not mistaken, Hideyoshi also used that distinction to identify those who
were his vassals and those who were his Vassals -- people who'd been with him
since day one vs. those who joined up later.

> The former literally
> means 'heridetary-vassal lords' which implies that they were a family of
> former Tokugawa vassals and more trusted daimyo while the latter literally
> means 'outside lords' which implies that they belong to a class of daimyo who
> have not yet gained the complete trust of the Tokugawa.

Specifically, fudai were those who were vassals *before* Sekigahara, and
everyone else -- even those who had been allies then but not vassals -- were
tozama. There's also a third category of daimyô: shinpan. These were daimyo who
were related by blood to the Tokugawa/Matsudaira house. A small, but very
influential, group, the shinpan.

The Tokugawa house itself was broken into three branches: the Kii, Owari, and
Mito Tokugawa (the "go-sanke"), which were set to provide an heir for the
shogunal seat if the main line of Ieyasu's son Hidetada failed to produce an
heir. A few times (including the last shôgun), the heir came from one of the
branches. (In fact, one branch itself branched off to form a further three
sub-houses.)

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- "Solomon,jr Bacarizas" <soulmoon888@...>
wrote:

> Thanks for all your concerns to accuracy and
> detail,please bear with us who may have been
> careless as to even just minor point of details.With
> a little amount of knowledge that you have you just
> dont know how far your ignorance will carry you
> along once you try to share the meager knowledge
> that you possess,but that's how we actually journey
> towards learning.First we admit our ignorance,but
> then after we've known a lot we realize how much we
> still do not know a lot of things unless someone
> will point that out to us.
>
> Will be glad to read more from you!! :- )

You don't sound very glad to read much of anything.
You sound rather upset that anyone took issue with
anything you said. I suggest you not take things
personally.

If I had said Hideyoshi was born in Totomi, and he was
actually born in Owari, I'd want someone to tell me.
But I suppose that may just be me.



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Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
--- "Solomon,jr Bacarizas" <soulmoon888@...>
wrote:

> Thanks for all your concerns to accuracy and
> detail,please bear with us who may have been
> careless as to even just minor point of details.With
> a little amount of knowledge that you have you just
> dont know how far your ignorance will carry you
> along once you try to share the meager knowledge
> that you possess,but that's how we actually journey
> towards learning.First we admit our ignorance,but
> then after we've known a lot we realize how much we
> still do not know a lot of things unless someone
> will point that out to us.
>
> Will be glad to read more from you!! :- )

You don't sound very glad to read much of anything.
You sound rather upset that anyone took issue with
anything you said. I suggest you not take things
personally.

If I had said Hideyoshi was born in Totomi, and he was
actually born in Owari, I'd want someone to tell me.
But I suppose that may just be me.



Sorry if I sound upset in my message.Dont really want to be self-defensive; but how can you be very sure that I'm really upset.Though I'll take note that you've said that I sound upset & you're not really implying that I am really so but still you drag me to become upset.I was not upset while composing my previous message.

I am new to this group and enjoy reading the discussions offered by those who answer the questions presented.I want to enhance my knowledge about the subject that's being discussed here and so I give further issues to tackle with regard to the topic that's being discussed.

I gladly take your suggestion not to take things personally;for in the first place I do not.Then why are we called a discussion group if after giving a reaction to the issues that had been touched recently someone will react in turn that I sound upset because someone took issue with what I've said?

Am I not corteous enough to admit my mistakes and acknowledge the person who pointed me out all of those?I've repeatedly said that I appreciate it and thankful for it and I hope that the words that I type and send to be posted for our group to read will just convey that.

It so happen that people send their corrections to your mistakes before you get any chance to correct it yourself.

Don't reaaly want to take this personally & I'll never will.I just want friendly exchanges of knowledge and information and even opinions.And I believe that the people with interests to things connected to the samurai must have enough ethical sensibilty to respect that.

-Solomon

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >
> > Will be glad to read more from you!! :- )
>
>You don't sound very glad to read much of anything.
>You sound rather upset that anyone took issue with
>anything you said. I suggest you not take things
>personally.

Nate,

Remember from the sentence structure, Solomon, while very well educated, is
(probably)not a native English speaker. Nuances in writing seldom come
through clearly in our posts and YOU have enough experience dealing with
those from other cultures to beware assumptions of tone on a list.

Plus Tony doesn't need any defenders, although I've caught errors a couple
of times ;)

M.J. Peters

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--- Michael Peters <shdwstel@...> wrote:

> Remember from the sentence structure, Solomon, while
> very well educated, is
> (probably)not a native English speaker.

I thought of that, but figured mentioning it might
bring more trouble than help. However, that's why I
wasn't going to pursue the point further. The original
reply smacked of overstatement and irony, though
admittedly it is difficult to tell tone on email.

> Plus Tony doesn't need any defenders, although I've
> caught errors a couple
> of times ;)

No, he doesn't--but he wasn't the only one with
comments on the post. I had some, as did Naomasa298.

The man says he's not taking it personally, so I'll go
with it. He's obviously got quite a bit of knowledge,
so I'm eager to hear from Solomon some more.




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>The man says he's not taking it personally, so I'll go
>with it. He's obviously got quite a bit of knowledge,
>so I'm eager to hear from Solomon some more.
>

Me as well as *I'm* too lazy to type out the long answers for inquiring
minds want to know. ;)

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