female samurais?

are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with some readings abt them?

thanks!

At 06:16 6/29/2004, Kevin Matthew Henson wrote:

>are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with some readings abt them?

There is no simple way to answer this question. Let me parse it into three:

1. Were there at any time females who, posing as men, fought in whatever manner was then practiced by samurai? The answer is very probably yes, although I do not happen to know of any specific instances. But we know that this sort of thing has been prevalent throughout history, in many different cultures.

2. Was there any way that a female could be recognized as a woman legitimately entitled to wear the long and the short, dress as a samurai male, etc.? A sort of Japanese Jeanne D'Arc? The answer is negative, so far as I know. It would be difficult to imagine, given Japanese gender conventions in the medieval and early modern periods, but might have been conceivable in earlier periods when women had higher and more independent status and the boundaries of the samurai class were quite elastic.

3. Were females of samurai households recognized as members of the samurai class and expected and required to conduct themselves in distinctive and "honorable" ways? Absolutely. There was even a recognized female counterpart to seppuku, involving use of the short (shortest) sword to sever the jugular. And in certain cases female members of the samurai class could perform distinctly military functions.

Will O'Neil

BTW, the usual plural of "samurai" in English is (following Japanese practice, which does not vary noun form with number) "samurai", not "samurais" -- although "samurais" is not technically incorrect if you prefer it.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Will O'Neil
wrote:

> At 06:16 6/29/2004, Kevin Matthew Henson wrote:
> >are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with some readings

abt them?

>
> There is no simple way to answer this question. Let me parse it

into three:

>
> 2. Was there any way that a female could be recognized as a woman

legitimately entitled to wear the long and the short, dress as a
samurai male, etc.? A sort of Japanese Jeanne D'Arc? The answer is
negative, so far as I know. It would be difficult to imagine, given
Japanese gender conventions in the medieval and early modern
periods, but might have been conceivable in earlier periods when
women had higher and more independent status and the boundaries of
the samurai class were quite elastic.

--

While there isn't a huge amount of material that can corroborate the
stories told about her deeds, what about Tomoe Gozen?

On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:38:24 -0400, Will O'Neilさん wrote in message <6.1.1.1.0.20040702031626.06f42280@...>

>At 06:16 6/29/2004, Kevin Matthew Henson wrote:
>>are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with some readings abt them?

>3. Were females of samurai households recognized as members of the samurai
>class and expected and required to conduct themselves in distinctive and
>"honorable" ways? Absolutely. There was even a recognized female counterpart
>to seppuku, involving use of the short (shortest) sword to sever the jugular.
>And in certain cases female members of the samurai class could perform
>distinctly military functions.

I think this may be the same thing that you are talking about Will,
but there were also women who fulfilled some of the administrative
duties of samurai, in places/for jobs that men were not appropriate.
For instance security for the various facilities where female members
of a samurai household led their daily lives. One of these roles was
the o-Hi-no-Ban. 御火の番.

As you say, this is not exactly the same as "being a female samurai"
in the sense that the original poster probably meant.

Another possible angle for this question is "did women engage in
combat" or "were women trained to fight". The accepted wisdom of
today is that women of the samurai class were trained to fight with
the naginata. as a last line of defence. The notion being that they
might be the only ones left to fight in case the enemy soldiers broke
into the castle.

Personally I am not familiar with whether or not that is reality. To
me it has the feel of legend. I've only ever read or heard about it in
the sort of vaguely self-assured way that is usually the way
"common wisdom" is talked about. I'd love to learn about either
actual training programs that existed, or actual cases where the women
picked up their naginata and fought as a group.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

tomoe-gozen
http://yoshitsune.gooside.com/tomoeuma.html
http://www3.starcat.ne.jp/~koten/genpege/genp56.html
She is wife of Kiso Yoshinaka(1154-1184).

sorry for my poor english......

----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Matthew Henson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 7:16 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] female samurais?


are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with some readings abt them?

thanks!




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kevin Matthew Henson <henson_kevin@...> wrote:
are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with some readings abt them?

thanks!

Hello Kevin!

As far as my readings of Japanese history is concerned I didn't come across that there were female groups who can be considered as samurai warriors.Though I understand that according to an article I've read there was such a one considered to be Japan's only famous example of a true female samurai warrior named Tomoe Gozen.She was one of the retainers of the Minamoto Yoshinaka, who escaped with him when Yoshitsune and Noriyori,brothers of the Minamoto Yoritomo(considered to be the head of the Minamoto clan) marched towards Kyoto to punish him for his presumption that he ought to be considered the over-all leader of the Minamoto clan.This events transpired during the Gempie War,which relates the rivalry of the two most powerful military houses in Japan and their struggle to exterminate each other to become the supreme military house of that land.There was no reliable and accurate historical documentations to show us that there were other female samurai warriors as Tomoe Sozen.

To my perception,it is difficult to find female samurais due to Japanese culture.Japanese society is known to be a male dominated culture and so Japanese females are relegated to a secondary status in that culture.Though there might have been strong women like Masako Oda,one of the wives of Yoritomo who played an active part in the establishing of the Hojo Regency, still women generally are conferred with a relatively inferior status.This may account a reason why it is difficult to find a number of female warriors in this male dominated society.There might have been some of them but we can't find reliable historical records of them or if there were the people in general will not be that interested to bother;for the Japanese people can also be said to be eclectic when it pertains to cultural matters as in the expectations they have for every member of their social group.I mean female samurais wont just fire their interest as it is dissonant with their cultural expectations.

Well, just in case anyone from our group send you an info to what you are asking for with regards to female samurai warriors like readings or references please inform me also and i will greatly appreciate that.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There is a story in 'Tales of the Japanese Storytellers' of the
daughter of the Ii family who married a handsome young man
who fell into bad habits - drinking and gambling.

Piece by piece the family heirlooms were sold to pay his bills,
until soon the young man began to cast his eye on a sword, a
present from his father-in-law and a precious Ii heirloom.

The lady in question sought out Yagyu Munenori (I believe) and
asked to be trained in swordsmanship, which the master
undertook.

When the time came for the samurai to sell the sword, his wife
agreed, on condition that he fought her for it, and she lost.
He did, and he lost. Such was his shame that he, too, sought
out the Yagyu school and began a period of intensive training.
Eventually, having mastered the sword, and thus himself (and
thus his habits) he asked his wife for a re-match.

The two faced each other, and immediately the wife could see
the man she married, put down her sword and offered it to him
to dispose of at his pleasure.

Needless to say, it remained within the family.

A story, but a good story always has the ring of truth. Not
that women necessarily trained in swordsmanship, but that
samurai women would have a certain strength of character.

Thomas

ey guys... thanks for all the replies... im doin a
report on it.. and i dont think im progressing.. do u
guys think that this project is not feasible?
--- Oyakata <oyakata@...> wrote:

> On Fri, 02 Jul 2004 03:38:24 -0400, Will O'Neil����
> wrote in message
> <6.1.1.1.0.20040702031626.06f42280@...>
> >At 06:16 6/29/2004, Kevin Matthew Henson wrote:
> >>are there female samurais? anyone hu can help with
> some readings abt them?
>
> >3. Were females of samurai households recognized as
> members of the samurai
> >class and expected and required to conduct
> themselves in distinctive and
> >"honorable" ways? Absolutely. There was even a
> recognized female counterpart
> >to seppuku, involving use of the short (shortest)
> sword to sever the jugular.
> >And in certain cases female members of the samurai
> class could perform
> >distinctly military functions.
>
> I think this may be the same thing that you are
> talking about Will,
> but there were also women who fulfilled some of the
> administrative
> duties of samurai, in places/for jobs that men were
> not appropriate.
> For instance security for the various facilities
> where female members
> of a samurai household led their daily lives. One of
> these roles was
> the o-Hi-no-Ban. ��������.
>
> As you say, this is not exactly the same as "being a
> female samurai"
> in the sense that the original poster probably
> meant.
>
> Another possible angle for this question is "did
> women engage in
> combat" or "were women trained to fight". The
> accepted wisdom of
> today is that women of the samurai class were
> trained to fight with
> the naginata. as a last line of defence. The notion
> being that they
> might be the only ones left to fight in case the
> enemy soldiers broke
> into the castle.
>
> Personally I am not familiar with whether or not
> that is reality. To
> me it has the feel of legend. I've only ever read or
> heard about it in
> the sort of vaguely self-assured way that is usually
> the way
> "common wisdom" is talked about. I'd love to learn
> about either
> actual training programs that existed, or actual
> cases where the women
> picked up their naginata and fought as a group.
>
> --
> Jay Kelly
> oyakata@...
>

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