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#4702 [2004-06-29 19:52:02]

Another sword question

by zevlord

Hi all another questions on swords.
Was just wondering if anyone knows much about the blades of the
Samurai sword. Swords are classified into categories by the length of
its blade if i'm correct, for example a katana is a katana due to its
blade being over two SHAKU. But what about the style and shape of the
blade, can a Katana be a Torii Sori style with a Unokubi – zukuri
shape. Also could you help my with this:
"Koa Isshin Mantetsu with Buke Zukuri Koshirae"
I think the Buke Zukuri Koshirae is some sort of mounting style. And
I guess the Koa Isshin Mantetsu is the shape of the blade maybe? Any
help would be great.

[Next #4704]

#4704 [2004-06-29 22:14:00]

Re: [samuraihistory] Another sword question

by soshuju

Zev-
Koa Isshin is the Greater Asian Co-prosperity sphere as it is
sometimes translated, and represents Japanese dreams of an asian
empire. Mantetsu is Manchurian railroad steel (Manchu-tetsu). Koa
Isshin mantetsu-to are swords produced for the war effort austensibly
using Materials and techniques invented by persons involved with the
Machurian Railworks. You'll find several articles about these blades on
the Japanese Sword Index
site;http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
Look under the section on Japanese swordsmiths.
Buke-zukuri means "Bushi-style" or made for a warrior, or koshirae in
accord with warrior tastes. This term is generally used to mean a
working-man samurai scabbard and handle, to differentiate it from say
Gun-to koshirae which is what one expects to see a Mantetsu-to in...
Tom Helm
www.ncjsc.org


On Jun 29, 2004, at 7:52 PM, zevlord wrote:

> Hi all another questions on swords.
> Was just wondering if anyone knows much about the blades of the
> Samurai sword. Swords are classified into categories by the length of
> its blade if i'm correct, for example a katana is a katana due to its
> blade being over two SHAKU. But what about the style and shape of the
> blade, can a Katana be a Torii Sori style with a Unokubi � zukuri
> shape.� Also could you help my with this:
> "Koa Isshin Mantetsu with Buke Zukuri Koshirae"
> I think the Buke Zukuri Koshirae is some sort of mounting style. And
> I guess the Koa Isshin Mantetsu is the shape of the blade maybe? Any
> help would be great.
>
>
>
>
>
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[Previous #4702] [Next #4713]

#4713 [2004-06-30 03:52:39]

Re: [samuraihistory] Another sword question

by blue_moon_dragon1

how long is a SHAKU ???


zevlord <LordZev@...> wrote:
Hi all another questions on swords.
Was just wondering if anyone knows much about the blades of the
Samurai sword. Swords are classified into categories by the length of
its blade if i'm correct, for example a katana is a katana due to its
blade being over two SHAKU. But what about the style and shape of the
blade, can a Katana be a Torii Sori style with a Unokubi � zukuri
shape. Also could you help my with this:
"Koa Isshin Mantetsu with Buke Zukuri Koshirae"
I think the Buke Zukuri Koshirae is some sort of mounting style. And
I guess the Koa Isshin Mantetsu is the shape of the blade maybe? Any
help would be great.





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[Previous #4704] [Next #4714]

#4714 [2004-06-30 19:57:19]

Re: Another sword question

by zevlord

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Squall Lionheart
wrote:
> how long is a SHAKU ???

one shaku equals approximately 12 inches or 30 centimeters

[Previous #4713] [Next #4717]

#4717 [2004-07-01 03:13:54]

Re: [samuraihistory] Another sword question

by jckelly108

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 03:52:39 -0700 (PDT), Squall Lionheartさん wrote in message <20040630105239.54528.qmail@...>
>how long is a SHAKU ???

Like most things, the answer is actually "it depends". There is a
modern definition of shaku which is defined in mercantile law. this
is the shaku that zevlord has given you - it is almost exactly
equal to a US 'foot', or about 30 cm.

But even today there are different kinds of shaku for different
purposes (the most famous example being the kujira-jaku which is
used in creating kimono). Historically there were many different
kinds of shaku depending on the time period, the thing being
measured, and the location. There were not large differences (shaku
never means '60 cm' for example).

In other words - today when a person says 'shaku' you can think
'about 30 cm', and probably be safe. But when reading history, it's
actually quite difficult to know what might have been meant by
'shaku' in any given circumstance.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

[Previous #4714] [Next #4724]

#4724 [2004-07-01 02:21:48]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by Mmupton1@cs.com

What's the difference between a Kodachi and a Wakasashi?
-mattyboi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #4717] [Next #4731]

#4731 [2004-07-02 22:46:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by umaryu

HI

I think there are several reasons why the names are
used.

IN some martial schools the kodachi is used but its
nothing more than a wakizashi. In the Hon Tai Yoshin
Ryu and kukishin Ryu the kodachi kata are all done
with a wakizashi. The one I use has a blade 18 inch
(46cm)

the kodachi I believe was the forerunner of the
wakizashi. Wakizashi tend to match your katana to
produce matching daisho

paul



--- Mmupton1@... wrote:

---------------------------------
What's the difference between a Kodachi and a
Wakasashi?
-mattyboi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Previous #4724] [Next #4738]

#4738 [2004-07-03 12:50:39]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by andjoysmith

I think the difference is that the kodachi is a bit longer than a wakizashi, correct me if I'm wrong.

Mmupton1@... wrote:What's the difference between a Kodachi and a Wakasashi?
-mattyboi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Previous #4731] [Next #4739]

#4739 [2004-07-03 14:30:59]

R: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by Carlo Tacchini

Another possible theory is that Kodachi is only an older (or another)
name for the companion sword that changed during the times. Once, the
companion sword wasn't regulated by length-rules and it went from
something like a long Tanto for collecting heads or close combat in full
armor (IoroiDoshi) till to short swords, often in hirazukuri style. The
worldwide known ShinogiZukuri style Wakizashi as a smaller replica of
the main blade went in fashion later, even if ShinogiZukuri wasn't an
obligation for such blades.
So, a matter of time and names, or how we use the words rather than
styles and length, in my opinion.

-----Messaggio originale-----
andrea Smith wrote:

Re: Another sword question

I think the difference is that the kodachi is a bit longer than a
wakizashi, correct me if I'm wrong.

Mmupton1@... wrote:What's the difference between a Kodachi and a
Wakasashi?
-mattyboi

[Previous #4738] [Next #4748]

#4748 [2004-07-04 11:54:18]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by Clive Sinclaire

The essential difference between a ko-dachi and a wakizashi is a
difference in sugata and koshirae. A ko-dachi is a short tachi blade and
tends to be slimmer and longer in sugata than most wakizashi and is properly
mounted in tachi koshirae. In other words it is a smaller slung sword whilst
a wakizashi is worn with the cutting edge uppermost and is paired with a
katana to form the daisho. In modern kendo kata, as we have said before, the
shorter bokuto is also refered to in common usage as a kodachi.
May I take this opportunity of wishing all the colonial members (joke!)of
this list a happy Independence Day.
Regards
Clive Sinclaire

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlo Tacchini" <TSUBAME1@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 10:30 PM
Subject: R: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question


> Another possible theory is that Kodachi is only an older (or another)
> name for the companion sword that changed during the times. Once, the
> companion sword wasn't regulated by length-rules and it went from
> something like a long Tanto for collecting heads or close combat in full
> armor (IoroiDoshi) till to short swords, often in hirazukuri style. The
> worldwide known ShinogiZukuri style Wakizashi as a smaller replica of
> the main blade went in fashion later, even if ShinogiZukuri wasn't an
> obligation for such blades.
> So, a matter of time and names, or how we use the words rather than
> styles and length, in my opinion.
>
> -----Messaggio originale-----
> andrea Smith wrote:
>
> Re: Another sword question
>
> I think the difference is that the kodachi is a bit longer than a
> wakizashi, correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Mmupton1@... wrote:What's the difference between a Kodachi and a
> Wakasashi?
> -mattyboi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Previous #4739] [Next #4749]

#4749 [2004-07-04 17:01:43]

[samuraihistory] Etiquette/Daimyo question

by ltdomer98

--- Clive Sinclaire <CSinclaire@...> wrote:
> May I take this opportunity of wishing all the
> colonial members (joke!)of
> this list a happy Independence Day.
> Regards
> Clive Sinclaire


Thank you much, and God Save the Queen to you too!

Ladies and Gentlemen, as temporary list moderator,
I've had to reject two messages from a certain
individual in the past day. Granted, these were
emotional childish outbursts laced with the "f" word,
but the underlying issue is that we weren't kind
enough to answer what a "daimyo" is for the young man.


Yes, I understand that if you do a google search you
should find an answer in about .03 nanoseconds. Yes, I
also understand that we are not a crutch for people
who don't want to do research. That being said, here's
a short answer that hopefully will suffice:

Daimo: "Great Name" a feudal lord of the samurai class
in pre-Meiji Japan. Daimyo were generally considered
the pre-eminent ruler in their fief, and controlled
everything that happened therein. Prior to the
Tokugawa Shogunate, the Daimyo were essentially
"warlords" controlling territory by force of arms,
enlarging it as they could. Subsequently, they held
their fiefs either by being granted them by the
Shogunate, or with the Shogunate's permission,
anyways. Daimyo had an army of samurai retainers,
generally speaking, to maintain order in their domains
and to fight wars when necessary. Once the Tokugawa
period began, there was a minimum income to be
considered a "daimyo"--I don't know off hand what it
was, but I'm sure you can look it up somewhere.

There's a basic answer.



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[Previous #4748] [Next #4750]

#4750 [2004-07-04 19:23:49]

Re: [samuraihistory] Etiquette/Daimyo question

by idiotkid43

Thank You very much Clive.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:--- Clive Sinclaire <CSinclaire@...> wrote:
> May I take this opportunity of wishing all the
> colonial members (joke!)of
> this list a happy Independence Day.
> Regards
> Clive Sinclaire


Thank you much, and God Save the Queen to you too!

Ladies and Gentlemen, as temporary list moderator,
I've had to reject two messages from a certain
individual in the past day. Granted, these were
emotional childish outbursts laced with the "f" word,
but the underlying issue is that we weren't kind
enough to answer what a "daimyo" is for the young man.


Yes, I understand that if you do a google search you
should find an answer in about .03 nanoseconds. Yes, I
also understand that we are not a crutch for people
who don't want to do research. That being said, here's
a short answer that hopefully will suffice:

Daimo: "Great Name" a feudal lord of the samurai class
in pre-Meiji Japan. Daimyo were generally considered
the pre-eminent ruler in their fief, and controlled
everything that happened therein. Prior to the
Tokugawa Shogunate, the Daimyo were essentially
"warlords" controlling territory by force of arms,
enlarging it as they could. Subsequently, they held
their fiefs either by being granted them by the
Shogunate, or with the Shogunate's permission,
anyways. Daimyo had an army of samurai retainers,
generally speaking, to maintain order in their domains
and to fight wars when necessary. Once the Tokugawa
period began, there was a minimum income to be
considered a "daimyo"--I don't know off hand what it
was, but I'm sure you can look it up somewhere.

There's a basic answer.



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[Previous #4749] [Next #4753]

#4753 [2004-07-04 21:03:57]

Re: Another sword question

by zevlord

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Mmupton1@c... wrote:
> What's the difference between a Kodachi and a Wakasashi?
> -mattyboi

At work so will have to be quick

A Kodachi is a small Tachi: Tachi Blade length being over 2 Shaku

Wakizashi is a smaller sword: Blade length being between 1 and 2
shaku.

However, kodachi is often used as a generic term for short sword, and
so may also be used to refer to a wakizashi. Sorry it's brief.

[Previous #4750] [Next #4756]

#4756 [2004-07-04 22:36:08]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by tstew32

I am new to the group, and am completely ignorant in comparision to other members vast knowledge of the samurai. I am mostly interested in the moral code and the discipline they lived by. If I am an annoyance to this group, I will terminate my membership immediately. However, if anyone has anything to share in relation to the Samurai's discipline, and spiritual way of life---- I am all ears.

Thanks,

Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: zevlord
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 12:03 AM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Mmupton1@c... wrote:
> What's the difference between a Kodachi and a Wakasashi?
> -mattyboi

At work so will have to be quick

A Kodachi is a small Tachi: Tachi Blade length being over 2 Shaku

Wakizashi is a smaller sword: Blade length being between 1 and 2
shaku.

However, kodachi is often used as a generic term for short sword, and
so may also be used to refer to a wakizashi. Sorry it's brief.




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[Previous #4753] [Next #4758]

#4758 [2004-07-05 08:27:23]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by sengokudaimyo

Tom Stewart wrote:

> I am new to the group, and am completely ignorant in comparision to other
> members vast knowledge of the samurai. I am mostly interested in the moral
> code and the discipline they lived by. If I am an annoyance to this group, I
> will terminate my membership immediately. However, if anyone has anything to
> share in relation to the Samurai's discipline, and spiritual way of life----
> I am all ears.
>

Well, I hate to tell you this, but there was no "discipline" or "spiritual way
of life."

You've bought into the myth. The myth promulgated during the Edo period when
there were no more wars -- a myth designed to give the non-warrior warrior class
a mystique and reason for being.

Samurai were just like everyone else. Some were brave, some were not; some were
clever, some were not; some were devout, some were not; some believed in loyalty
above all, some believed in looking out for number one.

Think about it. If there was a single universal code of bushido, there never
would have been any conflict or struggle because SOMEONE SOMEWHERE was violating
that "code" to create struggle.

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

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[Previous #4756] [Next #4761]

#4761 [2004-07-05 11:37:15]

R: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

by Carlo Tacchini

Well, this would explain the fact we can find Wakizashi-length blade in
Tachi Koshirae and Sugata (one also in Castello Sforzesco, Milan). But I
have not think before they were used as a companion sword, only as
boys-armor items. Most likely my mistake is to consider the therm as
referred to an early companion sword, probably because this therm is
misused in some sources.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Clive Sinclaire [mailto:CSinclaire@...]
Inviato: domenica 4 luglio 2004 20.54
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Another sword question

The essential difference between a ko-dachi and a wakizashi is a
difference in sugata and koshirae. A ko-dachi is a short tachi blade and
tends to be slimmer and longer in sugata than most wakizashi and is
properly
mounted in tachi koshirae. In other words it is a smaller slung sword
whilst
a wakizashi is worn with the cutting edge uppermost and is paired with a
katana to form the daisho. In modern kendo kata, as we have said before,
the
shorter bokuto is also refered to in common usage as a kodachi.
May I take this opportunity of wishing all the colonial members
(joke!)of
this list a happy Independence Day.
Regards
Clive Sinclaire

[Previous #4758] [Next #4765]

#4765 [2004-07-05 04:19:34]

Etiquette/Daimyo question

by deanwayland

Hi, I've just been reading my back messages, and I feel that although I
understand why some folks feel the way they do about what they consider
as simplistic questions, that they were unduly harsh on the chap asking
about daimyo. Remember, that sometimes it takes a little courage to post
in a field where you know nothing, and receiving such a hostile
reception can kill a budding interest in a subject stone dead. I would
suggest that if you feel a questioner's enquiry is not worthy of your
time and efforts to reply to, then, simply don't. Leave it to someone
else, and if no one wishes to reply, so be it. Sometimes I find dealing
with so-called "simple" questions makes me rethink my own assumptions
about the knowledge that I "think" I have in the subject being
considered, and thus helps me to master it:-)

Finally to add a piece to Nate's answer re daimyo: the required income
during the Tokugawa shogunate or Edo era (1600-1868) to be considered as
a daimyo was 10,000 koku. One koku was the amount of rice required to
feed one person for one year, and served as a measure of wealth for what
was fundamentally an agricultural society. A koku is a fraction over 180
litres of rice or about 300 pounds in weight. Will Adams, the first
Englishman in Japan, in a letter dated 1611 recounted that he and his
crew were each given an income of "2 pounds of rice a day", which is 2.4
koku a year. IIRC to be a samurai you had to have an income exceeding
1,000 koku, while the richest daimyo in the land Tokugawa Ieyasu, the
first of the Edo era shogun's had an income of over 4 million koku a
year!.

I hope the chap who posted has hung around to read this, if so I hope
you find this stuff useful.

Yours

Dean

> Ladies and Gentlemen, as temporary list moderator,
> I've had to reject two messages from a certain
> individual in the past day. Granted, these were
> emotional childish outbursts laced with the "f" word,
> but the underlying issue is that we weren't kind
> enough to answer what a "daimyo" is for the young man.
>
>
> Yes, I understand that if you do a google search you
> should find an answer in about .03 nanoseconds. Yes, I
> also understand that we are not a crutch for people
> who don't want to do research. That being said, here's
> a short answer that hopefully will suffice:
>
> Daimo: "Great Name" a feudal lord of the samurai class
> in pre-Meiji Japan. Daimyo were generally considered
> the pre-eminent ruler in their fief, and controlled
> everything that happened therein. Prior to the
> Tokugawa Shogunate, the Daimyo were essentially
> "warlords" controlling territory by force of arms,
> enlarging it as they could. Subsequently, they held
> their fiefs either by being granted them by the
> Shogunate, or with the Shogunate's permission,
> anyways. Daimyo had an army of samurai retainers,
> generally speaking, to maintain order in their domains
> and to fight wars when necessary. Once the Tokugawa
> period began, there was a minimum income to be
> considered a "daimyo"--I don't know off hand what it
> was, but I'm sure you can look it up somewhere.
>
> There's a basic answer.
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

[Previous #4761] [Next #4766]

#4766 [2004-07-05 09:54:45]

New

by ombraegrazia

Hi, I'm new in this group.
I thank and salute you.

Elisa






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[Previous #4765] [Next #4768]

#4768 [2004-07-05 18:17:15]

Re: Etiquette/Daimyo question

by naomasa298

If I could add a few things:

Apart from the classifications of daimyo (fudai, tozawa etc.),
daimyo were also classified by their income during the Edo period.

Kokushu, with very large landholdings, often across multiple
provinces.
Joshu, holders of castles.
Ryoshu, castle-less daimyo with 10,000 or more koku.

The exact definitions of these classes seems to be a little
nebulous, although they are specifically mentioned in the Buke
Shohatto.

You didn't have to have a specified level of income to be a samurai -
this was a social class rather than a function of wealth - there
were plenty of rich merchants who had significantly more income than
many samurai. I'm unsure about the level of stipend received by
poorer samurai, but there are many stories of samurai being forced
to literally sell their swords through poverty.

I've seen some claim of certain hatamoto being classified according
to their income, but this would seem to vary from clan to clan,
rather than being fixed across the board.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Dean Wayland
wrote:
> Hi, I've just been reading my back messages, and I feel that
although I
> understand why some folks feel the way they do about what they
consider
> as simplistic questions, that they were unduly harsh on the chap
asking
> about daimyo. Remember, that sometimes it takes a little courage
to post
> in a field where you know nothing, and receiving such a hostile
> reception can kill a budding interest in a subject stone dead. I
would
> suggest that if you feel a questioner's enquiry is not worthy of
your
> time and efforts to reply to, then, simply don't. Leave it to
someone
> else, and if no one wishes to reply, so be it. Sometimes I find
dealing
> with so-called "simple" questions makes me rethink my own
assumptions
> about the knowledge that I "think" I have in the subject being
> considered, and thus helps me to master it:-)
>
> Finally to add a piece to Nate's answer re daimyo: the required
income
> during the Tokugawa shogunate or Edo era (1600-1868) to be
considered as
> a daimyo was 10,000 koku. One koku was the amount of rice required
to
> feed one person for one year, and served as a measure of wealth
for what
> was fundamentally an agricultural society. A koku is a fraction
over 180
> litres of rice or about 300 pounds in weight. Will Adams, the first
> Englishman in Japan, in a letter dated 1611 recounted that he and
his
> crew were each given an income of "2 pounds of rice a day", which
is 2.4
> koku a year. IIRC to be a samurai you had to have an income
exceeding
> 1,000 koku, while the richest daimyo in the land Tokugawa Ieyasu,
the
> first of the Edo era shogun's had an income of over 4 million koku
a
> year!.
>
> I hope the chap who posted has hung around to read this, if so I
hope
> you find this stuff useful.
>
> Yours
>
> Dean

[Previous #4766] [Next #4770]

#4770 [2004-07-05 21:17:56]

Re: Another sword question

by teak_ig

Hello, all. :) My name is Konnel (or Teak)

I, too, am a new member and am also impressed at the (generally) high
quality of the posts -- and I am still busy poking through the early
archives. I've noticed a few things in common with some of the
group - I lived in Okinawa from '74-'80 (makiminato and kadena), have
a (barely) passing knowledge of nihongo, and an interest in the
martial arts (though I haven't had the opportunity to study, saving
myself for aikido ;) which is notoriously hard to find a master for
in south Mississippi). That pretty much sums up my expertise, which
implies "not much." I may be able to add illumination on something
somewhere, since I tend to collect disjointed trivial bits of
knowledge but I will probably just keep my fingers tight and
ears/eyes open.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:
> Tom Stewart wrote:
>
I am mostly interested in the moral
> > code and the discipline they lived by. > Well, I hate to tell
you this, but there was no "discipline" or "spiritual way
> of life."
>
> You've bought into the myth.

I am trying to remember the book I read which dealt with the
military/soldier's attitudes throuhgout Japanese history. It seems
far from being over concerned about honor, there are several stories
where what would amount to several companies of "smaurai" switched
sides the night before a battle. My general impression of pre-sengoku
period, at least, is that martial atitudes in Japan were not much
different from 11th century Europe - i.e. beat intersts served. I'll
try to track down the book, though doubtless a member owns it (I did
get it from the public library).

-z

[Previous #4768] [Next #4772]

#4772 [2004-07-05 22:51:40]

Re: [samuraihistory] Etiquette/Daimyo question

by woneil38

At 07:19 7/5/2004, Dean Wayland wrote:

>Finally to add a piece to Nate's answer re daimyo: the required income
>during the Tokugawa shogunate or Edo era (1600-1868) to be considered as
>a daimyo was 10,000 koku.

So far as I know, anyone holding a fief directly from the shogun with a kokudaka (rice assessment) of 10,000 koku per annum was ranked as a daimyo, but in certain large han the greatest of the domainal samurai held fiefs from the daimyo exceeding 10,000 koku -- I know of one who had 30,000 koku.

>One koku was the amount of rice required to
>feed one person for one year, and served as a measure of wealth for what
>was fundamentally an agricultural society. A koku is a fraction over 180
>litres of rice or about 300 pounds in weight.

In much of Japan (except the region immediately around Kyoto) the assessment in the Sengoku was in kandaka, which is to say in money terms rather than rice. I'm still digging into the story of the transition to the kokudaka system, which took place under Hideyoshi.

>Will Adams, the first
>Englishman in Japan, in a letter dated 1611 recounted that he and his
>crew were each given an income of "2 pounds of rice a day", which is 2.4
>koku a year.

There was a difference between one's kokudaka and income. The kokudaka was the nominal productive capacity of the fief, while the tax revenues varied but were usually around 30% to 40% of the kokudaka. If you were a low-ranked stipendiary rather than a fief-holder your stipend might be reckoned in hyo of 0.35 koku, so that a man with a stipend of 100 hyo actually received 35 koku (when not required to make a "loan" to his daimyo or shogun). Generally, one whose stipend was stated in koku rather than hyo had higher status, but got no more. That is, a stipend of 100 koku would bring in about the same net income as one of 100 hyo.

According to _Learning from Shogun_, William Adams (he never called himself "Will", noble a name though it be) held a fief with a kokudaka of 250 koku, comprising the villiage of Hemimura in what is today Yokusuka. This was quite a substantial property and implies a certain dignity to his station. Indeed, there is reason to believe that he wore the two swords of the samurai, although he almost certainly was not regarded as a samurai per se.

>IIRC to be a samurai you had to have an income exceeding
>1,000 koku,

No. It is reckoned that the greatest number of shogunal housemen had stipends of only 30 to 70 hyo. Needless to say, this meant miserable poverty unless one found other ways to augment it. In 1700 in Okayama han, 93 samurai were recorded as having less than 10 hyo, and in 1840-44 there were more than 1,000 with less than 20 hyo. It was quite impossible to live on less than 10 hyo (3.5 koku of rice income) and impossible to do more than merely subsist on less than 20 -- all these men had to find some way of supplementing their incomes quite substantially. In some rural han, stipends as low as 4 hyo equivalent were recorded, although it is thought that these were men with only nominal samurai duties who really were farmers.

A swordsmith (who was not a samurai, of course) might have 100 hyo, and other valued specialist craftsmen often got 50 or more.

>while the richest daimyo in the land Tokugawa Ieyasu, the
>first of the Edo era shogun's had an income of over 4 million koku a
>year!

This was Iyasu's kokudaka, not his income. Recall that the entire direct expense of the bakufu was borne out of the shogun's lands, since he received no tax revenues from the han. Thus his kokudaka was not so munificent as might seem.

Will O'Neil




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #4770] [Next #4774]

#4774 [2004-07-06 06:29:27]

Re: [samuraihistory] Etiquette/Daimyo question

by deanwayland

Well, that just goes to prove me point. I thought I had a handle on this
stuff, but me handle's just fallen off:-) Brain hurts, go away now, chew
over email and come back later with questions:-)

Yours in pain

Dean

PS: seriously, nice answer, thanks, period economics and monetary
systems, is an area where I'm very weak and need to get up to speed, so
once I've had a chance to formulate some questions, I'll be back!

In message <6.1.1.1.0.20040706002643.064a7c80@...>, Will
O'Neil <w.d.oneil@...> writes
> At 07:19 7/5/2004, Dean Wayland wrote:
>
> >Finally to add a piece to Nate's answer re daimyo: the required
> income
> >during the Tokugawa shogunate or Edo era (1600-1868) to be
> considered as
> >a daimyo was 10,000 koku.
>
> So far as I know, anyone holding a fief directly from the shogun
> with a kokudaka (rice assessment) of 10,000 koku per annum was
> ranked as a daimyo, but in certain large han the greatest of the
> domainal samurai held fiefs from the daimyo exceeding 10,000 koku
> -- I know of one who had 30,000 koku.
>
> >One koku was the amount of rice required to
> >feed one person for one year, and served as a measure of wealth
> for what
> >was fundamentally an agricultural society. A koku is a fraction
> over 180
> >litres of rice or about 300 pounds in weight.
>
> In much of Japan (except the region immediately around Kyoto) the
> assessment in the Sengoku was in kandaka, which is to say in money
> terms rather than rice. I'm still digging into the story of the
> transition to the kokudaka system, which took place under
> Hideyoshi.
>
> >Will Adams, the first
> >Englishman in Japan, in a letter dated 1611 recounted that he and
> his
> >crew were each given an income of "2 pounds of rice a day", which
> is 2.4
> >koku a year.
>
> There was a difference between one's kokudaka and income. The
> kokudaka was the nominal productive capacity of the fief, while the
> tax revenues varied but were usually around 30% to 40% of the
> kokudaka. If you were a low-ranked stipendiary rather than a
> fief-holder your stipend might be reckoned in hyo of 0.35 koku, so
> that a man with a stipend of 100 hyo actually received 35 koku
> (when not required to make a "loan" to his daimyo or shogun).
> Generally, one whose stipend was stated in koku rather than hyo had
> higher status, but got no more. That is, a stipend of 100 koku
> would bring in about the same net income as one of 100 hyo.
>
> According to _Learning from Shogun_, William Adams (he never called
> himself "Will", noble a name though it be) held a fief with a
> kokudaka of 250 koku, comprising the villiage of Hemimura in what
> is today Yokusuka. This was quite a substantial property and
> implies a certain dignity to his station. Indeed, there is reason
> to believe that he wore the two swords of the samurai, although he
> almost certainly was not regarded as a samurai per se.
>
> >IIRC to be a samurai you had to have an income exceeding
> >1,000 koku,
>
> No. It is reckoned that the greatest number of shogunal housemen
> had stipends of only 30 to 70 hyo. Needless to say, this meant
> miserable poverty unless one found other ways to augment it. In
> 1700 in Okayama han, 93 samurai were recorded as having less than
> 10 hyo, and in 1840-44 there were more than 1,000 with less than 20
> hyo. It was quite impossible to live on less than 10 hyo (3.5 koku
> of rice income) and impossible to do more than merely subsist on
> less than 20 -- all these men had to find some way of supplementing
> their incomes quite substantially. In some rural han, stipends as
> low as 4 hyo equivalent were recorded, although it is thought that
> these were men with only nominal samurai duties who really were
> farmers.
>
> A swordsmith (who was not a samurai, of course) might have 100 hyo,
> and other valued specialist craftsmen often got 50 or more.
>
> >while the richest daimyo in the land Tokugawa Ieyasu, the
> >first of the Edo era shogun's had an income of over 4 million koku
> a
> >year!
>
> This was Iyasu's kokudaka, not his income. Recall that the entire
> direct expense of the bakufu was borne out of the shogun's lands,
> since he received no tax revenues from the han. Thus his kokudaka
> was not so munificent as might seem.
>
> Will O'Neil
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
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>

Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk

[Previous #4772] [Next #4780]

#4780 [2004-07-06 20:28:28]

Re: New

by zevlord

Hi Elisa and welcome to the group, no doubt you will lean a few
things during your stay here. The people hear a very nice and are
willing to help where possible

[Previous #4774] [Next #4785]

#4785 [2004-07-08 16:41:49]

More Daimyo

by idiotkid43

Ryoshu Daimyo were caslte-less, as I read on another post. Where did they live? Amongst who, villages, farms? Who did they rule?

200-300 Daimyo families during the Tokugawa era. How many were in the family? Who and why did they fight? Who trains Daimyo?

Did they train their young?

I realize the simplicity of the questions again, and maybe some of them don't make any sense -- but, I need this information. I'm having a hard time getting a grasp on what a daimyo samurai is. I not retarded, I've read up on samurai. I've done google searches as suggested.

My bloodline is samurai -- suyuki/minamoto. I have family trees. My brother and I have traced our heritage back to Daimyo, or so we think? I've read Bushido, nothing about daimyo, I've read the Five Rings, again, nothing, the last Samurai, before it became popular, nothing. I've asked my grandmother, she refuses to speak of it; all she gave us was a family history written by her great-grandfather; from there my brother and I have started a mad project to get to the bottom of our roots. Any help would be awesome.

I would like to thank the compassionate Dean Wayland for shedding light on all of our negativity, including mine.

Jamie Taylor


Dean Wayland <dean@...> wrote:Hi, I've just been reading my back messages, and I feel that although I
understand why some folks feel the way they do about what they consider
as simplistic questions, that they were unduly harsh on the chap asking
about daimyo. Remember, that sometimes it takes a little courage to post
in a field where you know nothing, and receiving such a hostile
reception can kill a budding interest in a subject stone dead. I would
suggest that if you feel a questioner's enquiry is not worthy of your
time and efforts to reply to, then, simply don't. Leave it to someone
else, and if no one wishes to reply, so be it. Sometimes I find dealing
with so-called "simple" questions makes me rethink my own assumptions
about the knowledge that I "think" I have in the subject being
considered, and thus helps me to master it:-)

Finally to add a piece to Nate's answer re daimyo: the required income
during the Tokugawa shogunate or Edo era (1600-1868) to be considered as
a daimyo was 10,000 koku. One koku was the amount of rice required to
feed one person for one year, and served as a measure of wealth for what
was fundamentally an agricultural society. A koku is a fraction over 180
litres of rice or about 300 pounds in weight. Will Adams, the first
Englishman in Japan, in a letter dated 1611 recounted that he and his
crew were each given an income of "2 pounds of rice a day", which is 2.4
koku a year. IIRC to be a samurai you had to have an income exceeding
1,000 koku, while the richest daimyo in the land Tokugawa Ieyasu, the
first of the Edo era shogun's had an income of over 4 million koku a
year!.

I hope the chap who posted has hung around to read this, if so I hope
you find this stuff useful.

Yours

Dean

> Ladies and Gentlemen, as temporary list moderator,
> I've had to reject two messages from a certain
> individual in the past day. Granted, these were
> emotional childish outbursts laced with the "f" word,
> but the underlying issue is that we weren't kind
> enough to answer what a "daimyo" is for the young man.
>
>
> Yes, I understand that if you do a google search you
> should find an answer in about .03 nanoseconds. Yes, I
> also understand that we are not a crutch for people
> who don't want to do research. That being said, here's
> a short answer that hopefully will suffice:
>
> Daimo: "Great Name" a feudal lord of the samurai class
> in pre-Meiji Japan. Daimyo were generally considered
> the pre-eminent ruler in their fief, and controlled
> everything that happened therein. Prior to the
> Tokugawa Shogunate, the Daimyo were essentially
> "warlords" controlling territory by force of arms,
> enlarging it as they could. Subsequently, they held
> their fiefs either by being granted them by the
> Shogunate, or with the Shogunate's permission,
> anyways. Daimyo had an army of samurai retainers,
> generally speaking, to maintain order in their domains
> and to fight wars when necessary. Once the Tokugawa
> period began, there was a minimum income to be
> considered a "daimyo"--I don't know off hand what it
> was, but I'm sure you can look it up somewhere.
>
> There's a basic answer.
Dean Wayland
Head Of The Fight School
http://www.thefightschool.demon.co.uk



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[Previous #4780] [Next #4791]

#4791 [2004-07-09 06:08:40]

Re: More Daimyo

by naomasa298

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Jamie Taylor
wrote:
> Ryoshu Daimyo were caslte-less, as I read on another post. Where
did they live? Amongst who, villages, farms? Who did they rule?

Half the time, as per the "alternate residence" rule instituted by
the Tokugawa, they spent their time in Edo. At other times, they
would have had residences either in towns or mansions of their own.
Only one castle was permitted per province during this period, which
led to a large number of castles being torn down, although many had
their keeps moved and incorporated into other castles.

> 200-300 Daimyo families during the Tokugawa era. How many were in
the family? Who and why did they fight? Who trains Daimyo?

It varies from family to family. Other than immediate family
members, a household would also consist of retainers. Several
families had multiple, often distantly connected, branches. The
Matsudaira for example - there were a lot of Matsudaira daimyo.

For the most part, they didn't fight. Apart from a few peasant
uprisings, the Edo period was mostly peaceful.

As for "training", households would have retainers, or hired
scholars for that. In earlier times, it wasn't uncommon for children
to be sent to temples for their education - Uesugi Kenshin, for
example, spent seven years at the Rinzen-ji between the ages of 7-
14, although that was partly forced by the civil war in his own clan.

> Did they train their young?

Of course.

> I realize the simplicity of the questions again, and maybe some of
them don't make any sense -- but, I need this information. I'm
having a hard time getting a grasp on what a daimyo samurai is. I
not retarded, I've read up on samurai. I've done google searches as
suggested.

In *very* simplistic terms:
A "samurai" is a member of the military class of feudal Japan. Note
that you didn't need to know how to fight to be a samurai in Edo-
period Japan - you simply had to be a member of that social class.

A "daimyo" was a military governor, who administered lands on behalf
of/by the grace of the Shogun's government. Daimyo were appointed
from samurai families, but not every samurai was a daimyo - in the
same way that not every member of the military is a general.

[Previous #4785] [Next #4871]

#4871 [2004-07-22 06:51:21]

Origin of Kohaze for tabi

by deanwayland

Greetings All,

Okay, I have some questions regarding historical footwear which I hope
some one out there can help me with:

I know that many period tabi were split across the top of the foot and
secured with a pair of ties, rather than being split at the rear and
closed with kohaze or "clasps" as per modern tabi. But are these modern
kohaze derived from a period version?

When did the rear split style of tabi and their related kohaze first
appear?

What sorts of materials where used to make the early kohaze?

I personally haven't found any information earlier than 1906, when they
were being mass produced, probably in copper, by a Japanese company, who
say that their design was based upon a style formally made by hand by
skilled craftsman, which at least pushes them back in to the 19th
century.

All the modern ones I've seen are of aluminium, often plated in nickel,
and on occasion in brass. I've seen very large bone ones for book
bindings on the net, but so far, nothing else apart from these modern
varieties.

Although I've been informed that such a device was used on a kind of Edo
period "spat" called a kougake, probably some form of kiahan like
garment (leggings), apparently illustrated on "page 281 of Edo Fukushoku
Shi. (History of Edo Costume)", a work that I do not as yet have access
to. Many modern kiahan made for martial arts practitioners have kohaze
mounted on elastic to achieve a good fit, possibly a hang over of this
earlier garment.

Confession: I am trying to arrange the reproduction of these items for a
momoyama-jidai living history/role playing project, and if it were
possible to simply replace the aluminium kohaze of modern tabi with a
correct fitting, this would be much easier than having to make tabi from
absolute scratch. Especially as I can now get hold of tabi in
traditionally patterned cloth, rather than just plain dark blue and
white.

Okay, that's it, any input would be most appreciated.

Yours

Dean

[Previous #4791] [Next #7429]

#7429 [2005-08-02 13:17:58]

New

by starangel2512

Hi. I'm very interested in Japanese history, and am majoring in it
in college. I am especially interested in the history of the
Samurai. I look forward to discussing this topic with everyone, and
learning more about the Samurai.

[Previous #4871]


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