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Japanese Ironclad

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#4655 [2004-06-24 11:40:07]

Japanese Ironclad

by msr_iaidoka

Bill M.,

Considering that you are a major fan of Japanese naval warfare, especially
pre WWII, would I be able to assume that you have heard of the ironclad
HIJMS Azuma? It was also called the Kotetsu when it was first acquired as a
Tokugawa ship. I have been researching this ship for about a year now,
though not as well as I possibly could considering my lack of being about to
read Japanese (yet). If you know anything about this ship please let me
know. I would love to talk with you about it and swap notes.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Make the most of your family vacation with tips from the MSN Family Travel
Guide! http://dollar.msn.com

[Next #4660]

#4660 [2004-06-25 23:11:41]

Re: [samuraihistory] Japanese Ironclad

by umaryu

HI

I was wondering do you have a timer period for this
iron clad ship

paul



--- "M. R. Williams" <amacobra@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Bill M.,

Considering that you are a major fan of Japanese
naval warfare, especially
pre WWII, would I be able to assume that you have
heard of the ironclad
HIJMS Azuma? It was also called the Kotetsu when it
was first acquired as a
Tokugawa ship. I have been researching this ship for
about a year now,
though not as well as I possibly could considering my
lack of being about to
read Japanese (yet). If you know anything about this
ship please let me
know. I would love to talk with you about it and swap
notes.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Make the most of your family vacation with tips from
the MSN Family Travel
Guide! http://dollar.msn.com




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http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
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[Previous #4655] [Next #4661]

#4661 [2004-06-26 03:53:43]

Re: Japanese Ironclad

by naomasa298

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Richardson Paul
wrote:
> HI
>
> I was wondering do you have a timer period for this
> iron clad ship
>
> paul

Formerly the confederate CSS Stonewall, and was sold to Japan by the
US in August 1867. She was renamed the Azuma in 1871. Here you go:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-a/azuma.htm

[Previous #4660] [Next #4662]

#4662 [2004-06-26 05:09:20]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Ironclad

by umaryu

HI

ok its not the one I was thinking of.

I was hoping ou may have been researching the Iron
clad ships of the Kuki from the 1600's

Paul

--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Richardson Paul

wrote:
> HI
>
> I was wondering do you have a timer period for this
> iron clad ship
>
> paul

Formerly the confederate CSS Stonewall, and was sold
to Japan by the
US in August 1867. She was renamed the Azuma in 1871.
Here you go:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-a/azuma.htm



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http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---


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[Previous #4661] [Next #4668]

#4668 [2004-06-26 07:38:47]

RE: [samuraihistory] Japanese Ironclad

by satotetsutaro

Matt,

Here is what I have, let me know if this is what you are looking for.

HIJMS Azuma: (ex-Kotetsu, ex-Staerkodder, ex-Stonewall, ex-Sphinx)

Builders: L'Arman Bros, Bordeaux

Date: 1863-1865

Disp: 1560 (F)- 1390 (N)

Length: 194'9" overall- 183'7" at the waterline

Beam: 31'6"

Machineery: 2-screw horizontal direct-acting Mazeline engines, 2 Mazeline
boilers.

SHP: 1300 ihp

Speed: 9 knots

Arm: 1x9in BL in bow casemate, 2x6.3in BL (Armstrong)

Crew: 135

General Notes:
An ironclad ram design by M. Arman, with a wooden hull and iron belt. The
propellers were unusual, with twin coupled rudders and two keels. This
unique arrangement was intended to give great maneuverability. Her sister
ship Cheops became the Prussian Prinz Adlbert.

Armor: Belt 41/2" on the waterline, 51/2" on the CT, 4" casemate, and the
upper deck was also enclosed by armored bulwarks.

Bought for the Shoguns fleet in 1867 and arrived in Yokohama 24 April 1868
with an American crew. She was later taken back into American ownership and
early in 1869 was handed over to the Emperor, with the new name Kotetsu (the
armored one); renamed Azuma in 1871 and rated a coast defense battleship;
stricken 28 January 1888, and served for a further period as an
accommodation ship.

Cheers
Bill M.

-----Original Message-----
From: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:40 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] Japanese Ironclad


Bill M.,

Considering that you are a major fan of Japanese naval warfare, especially
pre WWII, would I be able to assume that you have heard of the ironclad
HIJMS Azuma? It was also called the Kotetsu when it was first acquired as a
Tokugawa ship. I have been researching this ship for about a year now,
though not as well as I possibly could considering my lack of being about to
read Japanese (yet). If you know anything about this ship please let me
know. I would love to talk with you about it and swap notes.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Make the most of your family vacation with tips from the MSN Family Travel
Guide! http://dollar.msn.com





---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Links

[Previous #4662] [Next #4669]

#4669 [2004-06-26 06:14:59]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Ironclad

by hide20030819

My name is Hideyuki.japanease.
sorry for my poor english.
Nobunaga ordered Kuki to make this Iron clad for battle against Mouri
Terumoto.
Kuiki was pirate before became samurai.

This ship was made of the tree. ship name is Atakebune.
But, he covered this ship with iron.
To prevent fire.

This ship was covered with iron of the thickness 3mm for the fire.
http://www12.plala.or.jp/k-hakuyo/index_ship/ship_8/2300.htm
http://www12.plala.or.jp/k-hakuyo/index_ship/ship_9/3000.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Richardson Paul
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Ironclad


HI

ok its not the one I was thinking of.

I was hoping ou may have been researching the Iron
clad ships of the Kuki from the 1600's

Paul

--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Richardson Paul

wrote:
> HI
>
> I was wondering do you have a timer period for this
> iron clad ship
>
> paul

Formerly the confederate CSS Stonewall, and was sold
to Japan by the
US in August 1867. She was renamed the Azuma in 1871.
Here you go:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-a/azuma.htm



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[Previous #4668] [Next #4673]

#4673 [2004-06-26 13:47:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Ironclad

by umaryu

HI

there is also this on the kUki Suigun

(Japanese)
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/suigun/index.html

(english)
http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/suigun/index_e.html

I am very much in terestedin the Kuki as I study one
branch of the Kukishin Ryu

thank you for those links I willrun them through a
translator and see if I understand what is there

Paul

--- niwatori-k@... wrote:

---------------------------------
My name is Hideyuki.japanease.
sorry for my poor english.
Nobunaga ordered Kuki to make this Iron clad for
battle against Mouri
Terumoto.
Kuiki was pirate before became samurai.

This ship was made of the tree. ship name is
Atakebune.
But, he covered this ship with iron.
To prevent fire.

This ship was covered with iron of the thickness 3mm
for the fire.
http://www12.plala.or.jp/k-hakuyo/index_ship/ship_8/2300.htm
http://www12.plala.or.jp/k-hakuyo/index_ship/ship_9/3000.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Richardson Paul
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Japanese Ironclad


HI

ok its not the one I was thinking of.

I was hoping ou may have been researching the Iron
clad ships of the Kuki from the 1600's

Paul

--- naomasa298 <shanesuebsahakarn@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Richardson
Paul

wrote:
> HI
>
> I was wondering do you have a timer period for
this
> iron clad ship
>
> paul

Formerly the confederate CSS Stonewall, and was sold
to Japan by the
US in August 1867. She was renamed the Azuma in
1871.
Here you go:

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-fornv/japan/japsh-a/azuma.htm



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Yahoo!
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[Previous #4669] [Next #4697]

#4697 [2004-06-28 07:14:47]

RE: Japanese Ironclad

by msr_iaidoka

Bill M.,

That is more than I had found thus far. Especially the name
"Staerkodder." Does that come from the attempt to sell it to Denmark? I
was also unaware of the sister ship. I have been having a hard time finding
information on this ship. I can only assume it is because I do not now
where to look. Woud you be so kind as to tell me where you found this out?
My main source of information so far has been on the US Navy Military
History site.
I have an account written by one of the Confederates who served on her
during the trans-Atlantic voyage from France to Cuba. I will dig it up and
send it to you if you are interested.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win
a trip to NY
http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/

[Previous #4673] [Next #4700]

#4700 [2004-06-29 13:50:57]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Japanese Ironclad

by satotetsutaro

Matt,

"That is more than I had found thus far. Especially the name
"Staerkodder." Does that come from the attempt to sell it to Denmark? I
was also unaware of the sister ship. I have been having a hard time finding
information on this ship. I can only assume it is because I do not now
where to look. Woud you be so kind as to tell me where you found this out?
My main source of information so far has been on the US Navy Military
History site.
I have an account written by one of the Confederates who served on her
during the trans-Atlantic voyage from France to Cuba. I will dig it up and
send it to you if you are interested."

All the info was from "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945" by
Hansgeorg Jentschura, Dieter Jung, and Peter Mickel. USNI Press 1992.

More info: Ordered for the Confederate States' Navy as the Sphinx; launched
21 June 1864, completed 25 October 1864; bought by Denmark and renamed
Staerkodder, after being blockaded in Corunna by Federal warships Sacramento
and Niagara the sale was not completed, and she was renamed CSS Stonewall;
1865 surrendered to Federal forces after which she was bought for the
Shoguns fleet. You have the rest of the info from this point. A note of
interest is that in Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships they state that
the reason for the US retaking ownership from the Japanese after the initial
purchase was because the Japanese simply did not yet have the facilities to
take care of her nor enough experience to crew her. Once the Japanese were
ready they once again took possession and that is when she was renamed
Kotetsu.

The other source for the above is Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships
1860-1905.

If you want more details as to armament and type of armor manufacture just
let me know. Most you have already but there are some differences between
Conway's, Jane's and Warship's.

Her sister the Prussian/German Prinz Adalbert: (Source-Conway's 1860-1905
German section)

Dis: 1535 tons
Dim: 186' 8" overall, 165' 7" at the waterline, 32'6" beam, 16'6" draft.
Mach: 2-shaft HSE, 1200ihp=10kts.
Armor: Wrought iron, Belt 5", tower 4 ?".
Armament: 1-120mm, 2-170mm.
Crew: 130

This ironclad ram originally known as Cheops, was under construction at
Bordeaux for the Confederacy, to her builders design, together with a sister
ship Stonewall Jackson, later the Japanese Azuma. She was purchased for the
Prussian Navy in June 1865, but not put into service until a year later. She
was not a particularly good bargain, being a bad seaboat, and the timbers of
her composite hull rapidly fell prey to rot. Though the Prussians replaced
her original intended armament of three 32pdrs with bigger guns in the
five-ported bow position and in the two-gun octagonal citadel abaft the
funnel, she could not be considered a particularly powerful ship. She was
schooner rigged. She was placed in reserve because of wood rot as early as
October 1871, and disarmed in 1875/6.

Gee, it feels good to be able to actually answer something here on this
list! ;-)

The first mentioned book is easily available while the older Conway's are a
little harder to find. If you are looking to get them let me know and I will
point you in the right direction.

Cheers
Bill M.

-----Original Message-----
From: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:15 AM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: Japanese Ironclad


Bill M.,

That is more than I had found thus far. Especially the name
"Staerkodder." Does that come from the attempt to sell it to Denmark? I
was also unaware of the sister ship. I have been having a hard time finding
information on this ship. I can only assume it is because I do not now
where to look. Woud you be so kind as to tell me where you found this out?
My main source of information so far has been on the US Navy Military
History site.
I have an account written by one of the Confederates who served on her
during the trans-Atlantic voyage from France to Cuba. I will dig it up and
send it to you if you are interested.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win
a trip to NY
http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/





---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
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[Previous #4697] [Next #4707]

#4707 [2004-06-30 07:01:11]

Re: Japanese Ironclad

by satotetsutaro

Matt,

I forgot to mention that I would love a copy of any and all
articles/info that you may have.

Cheers
Bill M.




--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Bill M." wrote:
> Matt,
>
> "That is more than I had found thus far. Especially the name
> "Staerkodder." Does that come from the attempt to sell it to
Denmark? I
> was also unaware of the sister ship. I have been having a hard
time finding
> information on this ship. I can only assume it is because I do not
now
> where to look. Woud you be so kind as to tell me where you found
this out?
> My main source of information so far has been on the US Navy
Military
> History site.
> I have an account written by one of the Confederates who served
on her
> during the trans-Atlantic voyage from France to Cuba. I will dig
it up and
> send it to you if you are interested."
>
> All the info was from "Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-
1945" by
> Hansgeorg Jentschura, Dieter Jung, and Peter Mickel. USNI Press
1992.
>
> More info: Ordered for the Confederate States' Navy as the Sphinx;
launched
> 21 June 1864, completed 25 October 1864; bought by Denmark and
renamed
> Staerkodder, after being blockaded in Corunna by Federal warships
Sacramento
> and Niagara the sale was not completed, and she was renamed CSS
Stonewall;
> 1865 surrendered to Federal forces after which she was bought for
the
> Shoguns fleet. You have the rest of the info from this point. A
note of
> interest is that in Conway's All the World's Fighting Ships they
state that
> the reason for the US retaking ownership from the Japanese after
the initial
> purchase was because the Japanese simply did not yet have the
facilities to
> take care of her nor enough experience to crew her. Once the
Japanese were
> ready they once again took possession and that is when she was
renamed
> Kotetsu.
>
> The other source for the above is Conway's All the World's Fighting
Ships
> 1860-1905.
>
> If you want more details as to armament and type of armor
manufacture just
> let me know. Most you have already but there are some differences
between
> Conway's, Jane's and Warship's.
>
> Her sister the Prussian/German Prinz Adalbert: (Source-Conway's
1860-1905
> German section)
>
> Dis: 1535 tons
> Dim: 186' 8" overall, 165' 7" at the waterline, 32'6" beam, 16'6"
draft.
> Mach: 2-shaft HSE, 1200ihp=10kts.
> Armor: Wrought iron, Belt 5", tower 4 ?".
> Armament: 1-120mm, 2-170mm.
> Crew: 130
>
> This ironclad ram originally known as Cheops, was under
construction at
> Bordeaux for the Confederacy, to her builders design, together with
a sister
> ship Stonewall Jackson, later the Japanese Azuma. She was purchased
for the
> Prussian Navy in June 1865, but not put into service until a year
later. She
> was not a particularly good bargain, being a bad seaboat, and the
timbers of
> her composite hull rapidly fell prey to rot. Though the Prussians
replaced
> her original intended armament of three 32pdrs with bigger guns in
the
> five-ported bow position and in the two-gun octagonal citadel abaft
the
> funnel, she could not be considered a particularly powerful ship.
She was
> schooner rigged. She was placed in reserve because of wood rot as
early as
> October 1871, and disarmed in 1875/6.
>
> Gee, it feels good to be able to actually answer something here on
this
> list! ;-)
>
> The first mentioned book is easily available while the older
Conway's are a
> little harder to find. If you are looking to get them let me know
and I will
> point you in the right direction.
>
> Cheers
> Bill M.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@h...]
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:15 AM
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: Japanese Ironclad
>
>
> Bill M.,
>
> That is more than I had found thus far. Especially the name
> "Staerkodder." Does that come from the attempt to sell it to
Denmark? I
> was also unaware of the sister ship. I have been having a hard
time finding
> information on this ship. I can only assume it is because I do not
now
> where to look. Woud you be so kind as to tell me where you found
this out?
> My main source of information so far has been on the US Navy
Military
> History site.
> I have an account written by one of the Confederates who served
on her
> during the trans-Atlantic voyage from France to Cuba. I will dig
it up and
> send it to you if you are interested.
>
>
> Peace,
>
> Matt
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and
enter to win
> a trip to NY
> http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-
url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links

[Previous #4700] [Next #4708]

#4708 [2004-06-30 10:47:07]

RE: RE: Japanese Ironclad

by msr_iaidoka

Bill M.,

I was under the impression that Denmark had rejected the purchase, which
allowed the Confederates to buy the ship via a loophole in the neutrality
agreement that France and England had going. Mayhaps I am misunderstand
what was meant by rejecting the purchase. Would I be logical then to assume
that Denmark took the ship, re-christened her, and then said, "Nope, not up
to our quality, take her back" as a means of adding legitimacy to the trick?
When I get home from work I will send you the article that I have. It is
a rather interesting first hand account. I also have a dozen or so pictures
and etchings on my computer of the ship. It is a particular favorite of
mine since it ties in two of my most favorite parts of history, the US War
Between the States and Tokugawa/Bakumatsu Japan.
Thank you again for the wonderful information. I shall have to get my
hands on a copy of the books you mentioned.


Peace,

Matt

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

[Previous #4707] [Next #4709]

#4709 [2004-06-30 16:54:03]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: RE: Japanese Ironclad

by satotetsutaro

Matt,

"I was under the impression that Denmark had rejected the purchase, which
allowed the Confederates to buy the ship via a loophole in the neutrality
agreement that France and England had going. Mayhaps I am misunderstand
what was meant by rejecting the purchase. Would I be logical then to assume
that Denmark took the ship, re-christened her, and then said, "Nope, not up
to our quality, take her back" as a means of adding legitimacy to the
trick?"

I don't know for sure, but this sounds very possible and well within the
realm of the kinds of dealings going on at the time. I checked the listings
for both Denmark and the United States in Conway's and found no listings for
her what so ever. This is one of the great things that interest me so in
nautical/naval history and in the samurai for that matter. I love when the
plot thickens. This has tweaked my interest and I will keep you posted as to
what I am able to uncover. Give me a few days as I have tons of material to
go through but I hope to turn up further information that will allow us to
nail this baby down.

Cheers
Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: M. R. Williams [mailto:amacobra@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:47 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: RE: Japanese Ironclad


Bill M.,

I was under the impression that Denmark had rejected the purchase, which
allowed the Confederates to buy the ship via a loophole in the neutrality
agreement that France and England had going. Mayhaps I am misunderstand
what was meant by rejecting the purchase. Would I be logical then to assume
that Denmark took the ship, re-christened her, and then said, "Nope, not up
to our quality, take her back" as a means of adding legitimacy to the trick?
When I get home from work I will send you the article that I have. It is
a rather interesting first hand account. I also have a dozen or so pictures
and etchings on my computer of the ship. It is a particular favorite of
mine since it ties in two of my most favorite parts of history, the US War
Between the States and Tokugawa/Bakumatsu Japan.
Thank you again for the wonderful information. I shall have to get my
hands on a copy of the books you mentioned.


Peace,

Matt

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#4726 [2004-07-01 08:52:07]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Japanese Ironclad

by pleitezbarahona

Can anybody explain the role of "Daimyo" in the Japan ?
"
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#4740 [2004-07-03 15:16:14]

Re: [samuraihistory] RE: Japanese Ironclad

by sengokudaimyo

Nelson Pleitez wrote:
> Can anybody explain the role of "Daimyo" in the Japan ?

That sounds rather like a homework question. :)

Tony
--

Anthony J. Bryant
Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder

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