Re: Nobunaga still = Hitler

>Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 22:33:51 -1000
> From: Cesare Polenghi
>Subject: Re: Nobunaga not quite = Hitler
>
>On Jun 6, 2004, at 7:08 PM, medhal8@...;-ljon Oddhinsson wrote:
>
>> There is a thing ye hast forgot....
>> He was not "playing in his own country". Japan was not a country at
>> that
>> time, but MANY countries. Many nations.
>
>Many nations?
>First of all, there were no such things as "nations," at least until
>the 18th, 19th century; second, national identities were then created
>according to issues such as language, beliefs, eventually race and
>tradition. All things that the Japanese shared. Actually few places in
>the world were (and are) as homogeneous as Japan.

That is wrong! All small portions of Japan was small countries with their
independence and own emperator as well.
The first one who dreamt to have one nation and perhaps one world (for these
people, Japan was the entire world) was the Emperator Yamato, that unlike
Nobunaga, had peaceful goals and intentions in his heart.

To quote him (Yamato Emperor, NOT Nobunaga)

"On the earth there ins�t earth portions marked with lines and different
colours like a map. Why people of these earth portions had to fight each
others when the earth is only one?"

>
>> So, he did exactly the same, including genocide against people who
>> disagreed
>> with him or hated religions... Just like Hitler...
>
>Wait a minute, wait a minute... Do you have an idea of what the
>Holocaust was? Hitler killed 5.7 million people simply because they
>belonged to a race, or because he considered them inferiors. They were
>not people on his path, he sent out over half of Europe his Gestapo and
>special extermination squads to get them, and to murder them. Hitler's
>"final solution," the ultimate decision of killing ALL Jewish, is
>something you can not compare with Nobunaga's will to unify Japan at
>all costs. Nobunaga did not build concentration camps where thousands
>of people were killed every day after they were exploited as slaves.
>And besides that, Nobunaga was born in the middle of a civil war, while
>Hitler started a World War... How can you compare them? Hitler lived
>400 years later than Nobunaga, in a different continent, and in a
>totally different contest.
>Sure, you can speculate that, given the chance, Nobunaga would have
>done as bad as Hitler, but... ***speculate*** that's it.
>History is a different matter. IMHO.
>cepo
>

Oooooo.... Very different contest...

Hitler attempted to reunify the "old Sacred German Empire" that never
existed in history. Always when certain portions of his ideal map are in the
hands of germans, other portions was independent. Some would say that he did
attempted to do with the entire world what the bastard of Nobunaga attempted
with Japan.

Hitler killed jews not due to racist motivations only, but also religious,
he also prosecuted gypsies, homosexuals and even germans who didn�t agreed
with his policy.

And... Although this is offtopic, Cesar, you may criticise my History View
Points as much as ye want, but was not any non-christian religion who always
was conspiring to change history logs, doing adulteration and falsification
on the documents, such as what whas done with certain doccuments by Taccitus
and others to "prove" that Jesus existed. As well, to accuse several others
religions (including judaism) of "human sacrifice" and all the same rant as
aways.

The japanese remember very well their history. Thanks to Tokugawa again.

And although I am not a communist...
"the people who don�t know their true history deeply, are fated to repeat it
in circles"
Mao Tse Tung

and again...

"Don�t go around spreading
that I am telling lies.
Stand up and PROVE I am wrong.
The History of the Church
is full of conspirations of ambition and power"
Goetche

that�s all

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
S�o Paulo - SP Brasil

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Putting everything aside, I have a comment and
questions on the following:

--- Medhal Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson
<medhal8@...> wrote:

> Hitler attempted to reunify the "old Sacred German
> Empire" that never
> existed in history. Always when certain portions of
> his ideal map are in the
> hands of germans, other portions was independent.
> Some would say that he did
> attempted to do with the entire world what the
> bastard of Nobunaga attempted
> with Japan.

Comment: I do not agree. Hitler identified the cause
of the defeat of the previous German Empire as the
racial impurity, which he generalized into a larger
sphere of historical context.
In essence, in his book, 'Mein Kampf', he claimed that
in order for an empire to last, it was necessary to
eliminate the racial impurity, the mass bulk of which
he also associated with Jews.

As a practical realization of his 'theoretical'
reasoning, he devised a systematic mass execution,
which his followers 'efficiently' implemented.

His ideal map of German nation, which I also believe
was on Hitler's mind, therefore was not the cause of
his 'mass' execuation in a strict sense whereas as for
Nobunaga, the reunification itself was the primary
cause of the execution. The expansive warfare
motivated by his ideal territory can be quoted at most
as the secondary cause of the mass exectution.

> Hitler killed jews not due to racist motivations
> only, but also religious,

Question 1: I do not understand what you meant by
'religious'.

> And... Although this is offtopic, Cesar, you may
> criticise my History View
> Points as much as ye want, but was not any
> non-christian religion who always
> was conspiring to change history logs, doing
> adulteration and falsification
> on the documents, such as what whas done with
> certain doccuments by Taccitus
> and others to "prove" that Jesus existed. As well,
> to accuse several others
> religions (including judaism) of "human sacrifice"
> and all the same rant as
> aways.
>
> The japanese remember very well their history.
> Thanks to Tokugawa again.

Question 2: Do you mean that the Japanese remember
well that Nobunaga = Hitler? Is this how many Japanese
historians interpret the historical postion of
Nobunaga and teach young Japanese students in their
history classes?

> And although I am not a communist...
> "the people who don�t know their true history
> deeply, are fated to repeat it
> in circles"
> Mao Tse Tung

Question 3: How is this quotation of Mao related to
your argument?

> "Don�t go around spreading
> that I am telling lies.
> Stand up and PROVE I am wrong.
> The History of the Church
> is full of conspirations of ambition and power"
> Goetche

Question 4: How does this quotation PROVE that you did
not lie when you said that the Japanese parents quote
Nobunaga to scare their children?





Sincerely,




Changsub Lee





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Will do my best.

>Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Lee Changsub
>Subject: Re: Re: Nobunaga still = Hitler
>
>Putting everything aside, I have a comment and
>questions on the following:
>
>--- Medhal Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson
> wrote:
>> Hitler attempted to reunify the "old Sacred German
>> Empire" that never
>> existed in history. Always when certain portions of
>> his ideal map are in the
>> hands of germans, other portions was independent.
>> Some would say that he did
>> attempted to do with the entire world what the
>> bastard of Nobunaga attempted
>> with Japan.
>
>Comment: I do not agree. Hitler identified the cause
>of the defeat of the previous German Empire as the
>racial impurity, which he generalized into a larger
>sphere of historical context.
>In essence, in his book, 'Mein Kampf', he claimed that
>in order for an empire to last, it was necessary to
>eliminate the racial impurity, the mass bulk of which
>he also associated with Jews.
>
>As a practical realization of his 'theoretical'
>reasoning, he devised a systematic mass execution,
>which his followers 'efficiently' implemented.
>
>His ideal map of German nation, which I also believe
>was on Hitler's mind, therefore was not the cause of
>his 'mass' execuation in a strict sense whereas as for
>Nobunaga, the reunification itself was the primary
>cause of the execution. The expansive warfare
>motivated by his ideal territory can be quoted at most
>as the secondary cause of the mass exectution.
>

Although it may be apparently a race issue, notes on his mein kamph proves
wrong.

Hitler mentioned in his mein kamph that no matter the race, an certain
people can be "evil" or "good" deppending on their cultural background. He
also said "the first step to destroy a nation, is to destroy its culture".

He fought non christians in general at Germany, Jews, homosexuals, people
who was freethinkers and didn�t supported the Nazi Regime (they was sent to
concentration camps despite if they was "pure race"-dogs with pedigree or
not). So, more than racial, it was even more about an ideological
absolutism.

In this way, he was very alike Nobunaga, Oda.

>> Hitler killed jews not due to racist motivations
>> only, but also religious,
>
>Question 1: I do not understand what you meant by
>'religious'.

Octavio: Means: NO CHRISTIAN! Although the precedent catholic concentration
camps at Yugoslavia killed not only jews, non christians, homosexuals and
people who though differently of the interests of the Rebel Catholic
Ustashi, they also killed protestants, lutherans, catholic orthodox as well,
Germany under Adolph Hitler, killed just no christians. Other denominations
of christianity was more safer than it was in Yugoslavia. Religion is also a
set of morals and ideas, not only simple an belief system. If he was an
absolutist, he fough also, what he considered inconvenient religions for his
purposes.

>
>> And... Although this is offtopic, Cesar, you may
>> criticise my History View
>> Points as much as ye want, but was not any
>> non-christian religion who always
>> was conspiring to change history logs, doing
>> adulteration and falsification
>> on the documents, such as what whas done with
>> certain doccuments by Taccitus
>> and others to "prove" that Jesus existed. As well,
>> to accuse several others
>> religions (including judaism) of "human sacrifice"
>> and all the same rant as
>> aways.
>>
>> The japanese remember very well their history.
>> Thanks to Tokugawa again.
>
>Question 2: Do you mean that the Japanese remember
>well that Nobunaga = Hitler? Is this how many Japanese
>historians interpret the historical postion of
>Nobunaga and teach young Japanese students in their
>history classes?

Octavio: I mean exactly what I mean. You added meaning to my stated phrases.
Japanese people does not taunt, at least at the time I learn japanese
history, things like "loosers was the evil" and "winners was the good", but
just telling the facts. They also din�t put in their history books that
Shinto do human sacrifices, and buddhists do the same as well. But if
christianity would take over Japan as it happened with my country, and
several scandinavian ones, Shinto and Buddhism would be despicted in history
books as "absolute EVIL". That was my point.

>
>> And although I am not a communist...
>> "the people who don�t know their true history
>> deeply, are fated to repeat it
>> in circles"
>> Mao Tse Tung
>
>Question 3: How is this quotation of Mao related to
>your argument?

Octavio: Think better, and you will realize what I mean.

>
>> "Don�t go around spreading
>> that I am telling lies.
>> Stand up and PROVE I am wrong.
>> The History of the Church
>> is full of conspirations of ambition and power"
>> Goetche
>
>Question 4: How does this quotation PROVE that you did
>not lie when you said that the Japanese parents quote
>Nobunaga to scare their children?
>

Octavio: I saw it with my own eyes when at Japan 14 years ago, and also
mentioned in some mangas as well at that time. Can you prove the contrary? I
don�t care if you do not believe me, or even if you believe as well. I am
not a preacher. My life�s meaning will not end if you don�t believe me.
Those who want know the truth, not only about what I stated, but about every
subject, must just not simply believe in what me or other people affirmed,
or skeptically disbelieve, but do their own research in all the sources they
can access. Including public libraries and internet.

For an example... Who cares if you didn�t believe in what I stated about
Buddhism history in Japan and their co-relaction with Samurai? The sources,
like Kalama Sutta, shingon-tendai references are available even in english
nowaddays. And if one want study the tripitaka, one can become a monk, learn
Pali and spend a life reading it. In fact, is what even Buddha recomended to
do in Kalama Sutra. Don�t believe me, go and read it. he he he

> Sincerely,
>
> Changsub Lee
>

Not hypocritally... (LOL)

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
S�o Paulo - SP Brazil

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