ando family crest

I have found some armour that has the ando family crest on the
helment. I would like to find out the history behind the armour,
but don't know where to start.

history042001さんの<c4pfsb+5akk@...>から

>I have found some armour that has the ando family crest on the
>helment. I would like to find out the history behind the armour,
>but don't know where to start.
>

Sounds interesting! Some more details are probably what's needed
to help someone help you find out the history. What kind of helmet
is it (do you know the name? Can you describe it?) About how old
is it? What exactly is the family crest that is on the armor (do you
know the name? Can you describe it?)

There are several different Ando's with various different types of
kamon.

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

John-
Pretty tough to appraise antiques online but, people do it all the
time. Pictures of the inside of your helmet bowl, in addition to
overall pics of the set and its individual parts will be the best place
to start.
Keep in mind that a single mon is hardly evidence of provenance. Most
great families had three mon, some more, some shared by many other
families. To say for sure you would need to see three mon in
combination that pointed to one family, then you have the problem of
attributing it to a certain generation, the main house or a branch.
Copies and revivalist pieces are also a problem. I say this often, so
forgive me if I am stating the obvious; tracing an item from a single
mon is near impossible, so much so that most don't even bother.
Studying and appraising your own set of armour (regardless of mon)
seems to me a much more interesting and potentially fruitful exercise.
-t

On Apr 4, 2004, at 10:15 AM, history042001 wrote:

> I have found some armour that has the ando family crest on the
> helment.� I would like to find out the history behind the armour,
> but don't know where to start.�
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:25:57 -0700, Tom Helmさん wrote in message <11C020CE-8904-11D8-9559-000393B56BC0@...>

> Keep in mind that a single mon is hardly evidence of provenance. Most
>great families had three mon, some more, some shared by many other
>families. To say for sure you would need to see three mon in
>combination that pointed to one family, then you have the problem of

Tom,
I've begun to get interested myself in the subject of kamon and
this is a fascinating point for me.

I do know that people (and families) tended to have more than one
kamon, especially in those cases where kamon were given as presents
from some more prestigious family/person.

But I've not yet run across the "three mon in combination" phenomenon.
Can you say a little more about this? What would be an example of a
family that had three kamon that were used in combination?

Thanks!

--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...

Jay et al-
There is a recent book out on the "emblems" of major daimyo, if you
look thru it you will see that most are listed with one primary and two
minor mon. usually these represent the main house, the mothers house
and the fathers house. In the case of direct lineage within the main
house, one might represent the generation in question. Any one might
be given to retainers as reward further confusing the issue.
When one looks at sword furniture,armour and other items we often see
a single mon applied, depending on age and quality the assumption is
these are made for retainers and only with convincing provenance said
to be those of some lord. for example;
A daughter of the house of Shimazu, is adopted into the Kuge (court
families) and then married to the Tokugawa Shogun. Thus as a wedding
gift to her Shimazu father we see a koshirae with Shimazu, Aoi and Kiku
mon all applied to the saya and fittings. Based on late-Edo history one
wouldn't expect to see these three in combination...
-t

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:45:43 -0700, Tom Helmさん wrote in message <BFBFE03D-8CCA-11D8-80E7-000393B56BC0@...>

>Jay et al-

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

> There is a recent book out on the "emblems" of major daimyo, if you
>look thru it

Sounds cool! Do you have any further information? What's the title?

>you will see that most are listed with one primary and two
>minor mon. usually these represent the main house, the mothers house
>and the fathers house. In the case of direct lineage within the main
>house, one might represent the generation in question. Any one might
>be given to retainers as reward further confusing the issue.

Yes, this is the situation I'm more familiar with and referred to
earlier. It's the situation where one family (or one person) has
several different mon, including some that are given as gifts from
someone else. But these are not necessarily used in combinations of
three.

> When one looks at sword furniture,armour and other items we often see
>a single mon applied, depending on age and quality the assumption is
>these are made for retainers and only with convincing provenance said
>to be those of some lord. for example;
> A daughter of the house of Shimazu, is adopted into the Kuge (court
>families) and then married to the Tokugawa Shogun. Thus as a wedding
>gift to her Shimazu father we see a koshirae with Shimazu, Aoi and Kiku
>mon all applied to the saya and fittings. Based on late-Edo history one
>wouldn't expect to see these three in combination..

That must be an amazing piece of work. I guess this must be the story
of Atsuhime?

In your experience would these three mon then be used by the family
(I guess Tokugawa) to represent the famil?. For instance would the
three mon be used on mon-tsuki or other personal items by the children
of the marriage?

Or is it more likely that these three mon, used in combination, were
basically symbols of the marriage - the coming together of the
families. Therefore they were symbols used to represent a particular
event but they were not really used to represent the families per se.

Does that distinction make sense?



--
Jay Kelly
oyakata@...