----- Original Message -----
From: Alexander M. Frazier
> KUMO ...
> Are you ten years old?
* What is wrong with ten year olds?
> If you disagree with someone, so be it, but that was the rudest display of adolescent behavior I have seen in a very long time.
> Show some respect.
> People from various martial arts are passed verbal transmissions of their "history" and the reasons for various traditions
> revolving around that art.
> As mentioned in this diatribe, I am a student of Aikido. Daito ryu more specifically. In our art, the hakama is gifted to a
> shodan. It is believed by our shihan that the hakama was worn for both ceremony and ease of movement for combat in an "in-house"
> circumstance. In another art there may have been different traditions or circumstances surrounding its use.
* Who questioned another ryu's use of the Hakama? NO-ONE.
> However, regardless of any one teaching, you must consider the fact that the hakama was Japanese
* Who said that the Hakama wasn't/isn't Japanese? NO-ONE.
> not the tool of martial arts.
* And how do you then account for it's additional and specific uses in the arts?
* It is in fact BOTH, Japanese and a TOOL of the arts.
* You seem to have missed this.
> It was worn by practitioners and "lay" folk alike.
* Who said that it wasn't worn by many kinds of people? NO-ONE.
> Martial arts all stemmed from India and developed into numerous styles over many generations throughout all of the orient, taking
> on various characteristics by each major clan and teacher. The hakama was just a garment that simply followed the Japanese during
> their day, and when one clan broke from another ... or one family divided and became two ... when they moved on they took their
> hakamas with them. Perhaps after the fact each determined that it had certain combative attributes. Who can truly say?
* Hmmmmm, I don't know..... maybe the GRAND MASTERS?
> I know that YOU weren't there any more than Eric was, so certainly you can't answer the question with any more authority than he
> could.
* Who questioned Mr. Baker's authority on the use of the Hakama? NO-ONE.
> In any case, people have different reasons for the things they think and believe, and not all of it is rootless. Unless YOU
> are the expert on all these matters, which I do not believe you are, try to have a little sensitivity in rebuking information you
> BELIEVE is incorrect.
* Next time you feel the need to go on, ...and on, ...and on about things that you have no clue about, Don't. Supress the need to BE
* WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING IN YOUR E-MAIL THAT YOU ACCUSE ME OF.
* Included is a copy of my e-mail to Mr. Baker. Please re-read it, as you paid no attention to it last time, and must have been
* looking slightly off-screen while typing, looking at the television or something.
* THEN, when you understand what I was expressing, please e-mail me privately, because I would hope that you do not
* enjoy embarrassing yourself any more than you have on this matter.
> Alex
* AGAIN, THIS IS THE LAST ON THIS MATTER. YOU SEEMED TO HAVE MISSSED THAT LAST TIME.
* AND MY INVITATION TO E-MAIL ME PRIVATELY.
* IT IS HOPED THAT IN CAPS IT WILL BE HARDER TO OVERLOOK THIS TIME.
Kumo.
Natsu-gusa ya
Tsuamono-domo ga
yume no ato
- Basho Matsuo.
(1644 - 1694)
Flollowing is my e-mail to Mr. Baker.
=========================
----- Original Message -----
From: KUM0
Subject: The ignorant
* Mr. Baker,
> I am sorry
* Do not be sorry, for you cannot change. And would not where it even for the better.
> but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years of my life.
* A commendable time spent learning. Kudos.
> I have to disagree. There are all kinds of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise movement or position. This is simply not
> true.
* Did you invent the Hakama and devise it's uses? I believe that you didn't. You only know of it's uses inside Budo as you learn it,
* and are in no position to comment on any other arts uses of the hakama.
> The Samurai when going in to combat without armor preffered to were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi.
* As does anybody with an ounce of common sense.
> This allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this happen)
* I agree. This I have seen for myself.
> When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> hakama so it did not apply.
* However, I don't believe that this paragraph has anything atall to do with the subject matter being discussed.
> The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and neither is their movie incarnation. They were usually reffered to as Shinobi and
> originally were not as specialized as the movies make them appear.
> They were used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would be employed
> to kill. But I have heard of very few if any cases with the latter. A good book on the subject of the origin and truths behind
the
> "Ninja" is Stephen Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of and has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the
> price.
> There are alot of myths regarding the history of the Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)
* Who mentioned movies? Who mentioned historically correct details regarding the ninja? How would you be an authority on the ninja?
* You study Budo by your own admission. It is very rude by every cultures beliefs to denounce that of which you are ignorant.
* And ignorant of such matters you are.
* Whether the term "Ninja" appeared in Japan _ever_ is no matter. Nowdays it is an accepted layman's term. Whether you like it or
* not. And the world will use it without you.
* I have respect for the way of Bu, but not for you, because you are ignorant, and have no respect for anything but your own
* "knowledge". Of which you probably know nothing outside of Budo teachings, and the odd bit of book reading here or there by
authors
* who are also no authority on the subjects which they publish books on.
* That is my last comment on the matter on the list, if you wish to comment youself, which you no doubt would accept to do without
* thought, then you have my e-mail address and have my invitation to mail me personally for any reason.
----- Original Message -----
From: "KUM0" <kum0@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 11:43 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] TO: Mr. Frazier AND TO: Mr. Baker
> In this e-mail:
>
> TWO MESSAGES, The first adressed to Mr. Baker,
> The SECOND adressed to Mr. Frazier
>
> ========================================
>
> TO: MR. BAKER,
>
> Thank you.
>
> Even after I bite your head off, (which you apologised for provoking
anyway out of a good heart, even though you were not wrong in
> the first place), you then stand up for me.
> You are a very kind person, and I am sorry to you for any insult that I
made to you, ever.
> Whether you were wrong or not is not the case as you were not wrong to
express your opinion in the first place and meant no offence
> anyway.
> Therefore I was wrong and apologise to you.
>
> Kumo.
>
> Natsu-gusa ya
> Tsuamono-domo ga
> yume no ato
>
> - Basho Matsuo.
> (1644 - 1694)
>
> ---------------------------
> TO: MR. FRAZIER
>
> Read between your paragraphs for responses:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alexander M. Frazier
>
> > KUMO ...
>
> > Are you ten years old?
>
> * What is wrong with ten year olds?
> ** Nothing if you ARE ten years old. If you are a grown man acting like a
ten year old, there is a big problem with it in adult society.
> > If you disagree with someone, so be it, but that was the rudest display
of adolescent behavior I have seen in a very long time.
> > Show some respect.
> > People from various martial arts are passed verbal transmissions of
their "history" and the reasons for various traditions
> > revolving around that art.
> > As mentioned in this diatribe, I am a student of Aikido. Daito ryu more
specifically. In our art, the hakama is gifted to a
> > shodan. It is believed by our shihan that the hakama was worn for both
ceremony and ease of movement for combat in an "in-house"
> > circumstance. In another art there may have been different traditions or
circumstances surrounding its use.
>
> * Who questioned another ryu's use of the Hakama? NO-ONE.
** Let me just quote you on this one first. "Did you invent the Hakama and
devise it's uses? I believe that you didn't. You only know of it's uses
inside Budo as you learn it, and are in no position to comment on any other
arts uses of the hakama."
** What I had to say was not intended or designed to question anything. You
slammed him for expressing what he was taught, and I was trying to show that
different arts are taught different things. He wasn't wrong by having
incomplete information. You, on the other hand, were very wrong in being so
rude about it as though you were the authority on the subject.
>
> > However, regardless of any one teaching, you must consider the fact that
the hakama was Japanese
>
> * Who said that the Hakama wasn't/isn't Japanese? NO-ONE.
** Lovely how you broke this sentence in half to twist its meaning.
>
> > not the tool of martial arts.
>
> * And how do you then account for it's additional and specific uses in the
arts?
** I account for it the same way I account for Indians discovering the added
bonus of a warm pelt after eating the buffalo. The Japanese wore it, and
wonder of wonders, it was really easy to move in it. Go figure.
> * It is in fact BOTH, Japanese and a TOOL of the arts.
> * You seem to have missed this.
> ** It IS both, but it may not necessarily have ALWAYS been both.
> > It was worn by practitioners and "lay" folk alike.
>
> * Who said that it wasn't worn by many kinds of people? NO-ONE.
** By bringing up the point that everyone wore them, I was simply showing
that it was not designed for any specific martial purpose. It was a garment.
And your comments as referenced above were unnecessary.
>
> > Martial arts all stemmed from India and developed into numerous styles
over many generations throughout all of the orient, taking
> > on various characteristics by each major clan and teacher. The hakama
was just a garment that simply followed the Japanese during
> > their day, and when one clan broke from another ... or one family
divided and became two ... when they moved on they took their
> > hakamas with them. Perhaps after the fact each determined that it had
certain combative attributes. Who can truly say?
>
> * Hmmmmm, I don't know..... maybe the GRAND MASTERS?
** Another childish response.
>
> > I know that YOU weren't there any more than Eric was, so certainly you
can't answer the question with any more authority than he
> > could.
>
> * Who questioned Mr. Baker's authority on the use of the Hakama? NO-ONE.
** Ummm, you did! Let me go ahead and quote you again. "Did you invent the
Hakama and devise it's uses? I believe that you didn't. You only know of
it's uses inside Budo as you learn it, and are in no position to comment on
any other arts uses of the hakama."
>
> > In any case, people have different reasons for the things they think and
believe, and not all of it is rootless. Unless YOU
> > are the expert on all these matters, which I do not believe you are, try
to have a little sensitivity in rebuking information you
> > BELIEVE is incorrect.
>
> * Next time you feel the need to go on, ...and on, ...and on about things
that you have no clue about, Don't. Supress the need to BE
> * WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING IN YOUR E-MAIL THAT YOU ACCUSE ME OF.
** Seems to me that I was right on target about everything I had to say. You
should consider being a writer. They are all touchy and critical like you,
and they love rebutting criticism over even a single word.
>
> * Included is a copy of my e-mail to Mr. Baker. Please re-read it, as you
paid no attention to it last time, and must have been
> * looking slightly off-screen while typing, looking at the television or
something.
> * THEN, when you understand what I was expressing, please e-mail me
privately, because I would hope that you do not
> * enjoy embarrassing yourself any more than you have on this matter.
** Here is my email punish10@...
** If you choose to stop making a fool of YOURself and choose to rebut
privately, I will be happy to discuss things in more detail on a personal
basis. However, you are crazy if you think you are going attempt to demean
me on a public message and not get a worthy response of a like kind. Most
especially when it all stemmed from your rude message to another member of
this message group.
>
> > Alex
>
> * AGAIN, THIS IS THE LAST ON THIS MATTER. YOU SEEMED TO HAVE MISSSED THAT
LAST TIME.
> * AND MY INVITATION TO E-MAIL ME PRIVATELY.
> * IT IS HOPED THAT IN CAPS IT WILL BE HARDER TO OVERLOOK THIS TIME.
>
> Kumo.
>
> Natsu-gusa ya
> Tsuamono-domo ga
> yume no ato
>
> - Basho Matsuo.
> (1644 - 1694)
>
> Flollowing is my e-mail to Mr. Baker.
> =========================
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: KUM0
> Subject: The ignorant
>
> * Mr. Baker,
>
> > I am sorry
>
> * Do not be sorry, for you cannot change. And would not where it even for
the better.
>
> > but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years of my life.
>
> * A commendable time spent learning. Kudos.
>
> > I have to disagree. There are all kinds of ideas that the Hakama was
worn to disguise movement or position. This is simply not
> > true.
>
> * Did you invent the Hakama and devise it's uses? I believe that you
didn't. You only know of it's uses inside Budo as you learn it,
> * and are in no position to comment on any other arts uses of the hakama.
>
> > The Samurai when going in to combat without armor preffered to were
there hakama tucked up some under the Obi.
>
> * As does anybody with an ounce of common sense.
>
> > This allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama itself.(anyone
who practices Aikido has had this happen)
>
> * I agree. This I have seen for myself.
>
> > When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> > hakama so it did not apply.
>
> * However, I don't believe that this paragraph has anything atall to do
with the subject matter being discussed.
>
> > The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and neither is their movie
incarnation. They were usually reffered to as Shinobi and
> > originally were not as specialized as the movies make them appear.
> > They were used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in order to
cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would be employed
> > to kill. But I have heard of very few if any cases with the latter. A
good book on the subject of the origin and truths behind
> the
> > "Ninja" is Stephen Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of
and has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the
> > price.
> > There are alot of myths regarding the history of the Martial arts.(Ninja
Especially)
>
> * Who mentioned movies? Who mentioned historically correct details
regarding the ninja? How would you be an authority on the ninja?
> * You study Budo by your own admission. It is very rude by every cultures
beliefs to denounce that of which you are ignorant.
>
> * And ignorant of such matters you are.
>
> * Whether the term "Ninja" appeared in Japan _ever_ is no matter.
Nowdays it is an accepted layman's term. Whether you like it or
> * not. And the world will use it without you.
>
> * I have respect for the way of Bu, but not for you, because you are
ignorant, and have no respect for anything but your own
> * "knowledge". Of which you probably know nothing outside of Budo
teachings, and the odd bit of book reading here or there by
> authors
> * who are also no authority on the subjects which they publish books on.
>
> * That is my last comment on the matter on the list, if you wish to
comment youself, which you no doubt would accept to do without
> * thought, then you have my e-mail address and have my invitation to mail
me personally for any reason.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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