role of bushido

if i recall, we've discussed the role of bushido before. It wasn't for keeping the samurai down, but for keeping them "up." That is, in a society without any wars, if you have a military class, you have to have some rational or emotional justification for continuing their benefits. Bushido made the samurai out to be more than just a soldier, and so attempted (I guess successfully) to justify his existence in the non-warring period. Kinda like for america, if we don't have any perceived military threats, we want to cut military spending. So what does the military do? Come up with all the "be all you can be" and "army of one" and "we're looking for a few good men" advertising campaigns... which glorifies the military in the public's eye, and gives it a purpose apart from war... namely the bettering of our citizens by education and experience. Bushido made samurai out to be "honorable citizens" or something to that effect...

> All sounds about right to me. But what I meant was that the bushido
> was used to keep samurai down in the edo jidai (i know it wasnt
> around earlier... im glad you do, because on the message board right
> now ive got a heated discussion on my hands with someone who
> disagrees.).
> I'm sure it wasn't a conspiracy the way we think about it... but it
> was a useful tool utilized in this way nonetheless.
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "midorinotoradesu"
> wrote:
> > Now Kyle, I like that. You have been fair with all of us by
> > explaining what you meant.
> >
> > I do have some thoughts about the whole lineage thing. I'm not an
> > expert, so I hope Tony will correct me if I'm way off. I do
> believe
> > the practice of one on one combat existed in the early samurai
> > period. Even in the Gempei war many challanges were shouted to
> foes
> > based on the existing honor system. Many Samurai did call out
> their
> > lineage before a battle. Although it seems silly to us now, we
> have
> > to remember how isolated Japan was from the rest of the world.
> They
> > had a system of fighting wars that was very different than any
> > other...Until the Mongols invaded. Then the Samurai began to wise
> > up. "Hey, these Mongols don't really care about our family do
> they?"
> > My understanding is that the Japanese were totally unprepared to
> > fight a war with an organized mongolian military machine. The
> > Kamikaze came and literally saved Japan. But the samurai were
> > prepared the second time, and the preparations/strategic
> philosophies
> > that followed changed the face of Samurai warfare.
> >
> > Into the Sengoku is when Ashigaru are much more apparent in the
> > armies. Long after the lineage practice had been proven unwise by
> > the Mongols (I know, they were actually Korean and Chinese
> > conscripts). So at this point I can't see them doing it either.
> >
> > Many years later, after a couple hundred years of peace, under the
> > Tokugawa bakufu, Hagakure was written. This is about the point
> that
> > Bushido is crystalized into what we know today. Prior to the
> > peaceful Edo Jidai, much of the "honor sytem" wasn't based on
> those
> > high and holy precepts that everyone thinks the samurai lived by.
> It
> > was only in the last years of the samurai that the bushido code
> would
> > influence the population.
> >
> > I guess, I too get a little sick of generalizations. I recently
> went
> > to a banquet that had a presentation on Samurai and Kensei. We
> were
> > informed that the Samurai lived by the Bushido code. They were
> > warriors and role models that were bound by honor to better
> society.
> > They helped everyone gain greater understanding by standing for
> > peace, justice, and the American way (well, they didn't really say
> > that, but they might as well have). Upon hearing this, I could
> hear
> > Tony's voice with a resounding "Bunk!" There were good and bad
> > Samurai. They didn't all live honorable and they Bushido code
> didn't
> > affect most of the samurai period. Surely, you must agree that
> they
> > had some system of honor. How else could we quantify a good or
> bad
> > samurai? But it wasn't "Bushido" persay. Since "Bushido" did not
> > exist in the Sengoku, it probably wasn't used to keep the troops
> in
> > line. I am sure that daimyo did manipulate their troops but it
> may
> > have been much more simple and less dubious than you presume.
> > Promises of fame and fortune, political status, social status,
> pride,
> > and land are other methods that could be used to obtain loyalty.
> >
> > In short, I don't think that there was a universal conspiracy by
> > leaders of the time, to devise a system to keep a brotha down.
> That
> > was not the "purpose" of honor or bushido, although it (like
> anything
> > else) could be perverted and warped to serve sinister means.
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kyle Segall" <
> > klancesegall@y...> wrote:
> > > Try a little more than Shogun. Akechi Mitsuhide wouldn't have
> been
> > > thought so poor had he actually succeeded in becoming Shogun
> (his
> > > alliances not fallen apart, the mori finding out about
> nobunaga's
> > > death before hideyoshi). Don't kid yourself into think he really
> > did
> > > anything special. Just dumb.
> > > The daimyo used bushido to keep troops loyal. Yes, some samurai
> > > really believed in it. Obviously, take a look at the Hagakure to
> > see
> > > that. But these guys weren't the soldiers, they were the
> > > peacekeeping semi-beurocrats of the Edo jidai.
> > > You claim that all of Japan followed a system of honor... its
> true
> > > that confucian principles were generally followed, but thats far
> > > from a system of honor, especially what you're thinking about.
> > Think
> > > about it; if you're a farmer, and you toil all day and sleep
> what
> > > little time you have off, what room is there for the "honor"
> that
> > > you think everyone followed? that they were too tired to ever do
> > > anything but be subserviant like the samurai the hagakure
> preaches
> > > about may be true... but that wasn't really out of a sense of
> > honor.
> > >
> > > I don't recall all samurai calling out challenges... only the
> noble
> > > ones. I doubt an ashigaru wielding a spear was shouting, "I am
> so-
> > > and-so, from so-and-so village! Come get some!"
> > >
> > > And sorry about the snappy remarks... I'm just SICK of all these
> > > kids thinking the Hagakure is the book of every samurai for
> every
> > > age, and that Akechi Mitsuhide was a unique person for his
> actions.
> > > Only famous for who he killed and how dumb he was in doing it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Kinda like for america, if we don't have any perceived military
threats, we want to cut military spending. So what does the military
do? Come up with all the "be all you can be" and "army of one" and
"we're looking for a few good men" advertising campaigns... which
glorifies the military in the public's eye, and gives it a purpose
apart from war... namely the bettering of our citizens by education
and experience. Bushido made samurai out to be "honorable citizens"
or something to that effect...

I have to disagree with you here. The military does not come up with
advertising campaigns to glorify the military in the public's eye.
How does spending more of the military budget on advertising give the
military any more money. A portion of the budget is allotted to
recruit and retain personnel through these campaigns. This was an
important issue about 5 years ago. The military branches were all
significantly under mandated strength numbers.

If you want to cut military spending (or more aptly if congress wants
to do so) there isn't much the military can do about it. Congress
makes laws about force budgets and limitaions on force strength (the
number of personnel in each branch). Perception is an important
issue and some people do percieve that we aren't in need of a
military. Perceptions are not always the truth. Your perception and
my perception may be completely different.

Relating back to the samurai, there is always a need for military
power. In the samurai days it may have been for civil obedience
outside the existance of a war. As for America's military, I'd
challenge you to name a period in recent history that they weren't
invovled in some conflict. U.S. forces have been reduced by more
than half. The military performs the same job with less people. The
military also serves the purpose of civil protection, aid natural
disaster victims, and any other emergency of national or local
importance.

The U.S. military is very different from the samurai. Japan was
isolated from most of the world. By their own choice and because of
geography. The U.S. military deals with global issues. A military
dealing only with its own country's problems has different demands.
In which case your second assertion may bear some truth. Only some
truth becuase I believe the samurai were in a postion like many
dictatorships in the world. They possessed the frightening might or
the military and didn't require justifying themselves to the
population they ruled. If the peasants didn't like it; what would
they do about it? They odd situation with Japan is that they had 2
positions of power. Shogun and Emperor. Periods existed when the
Emperor possessed all the power and there were times when the Emperor
was only a puppet. The peasants were'nt the only ones who didn't
like the system. The Emperor didn't and he did something about it.
No matter how the samurai class may have been "justified" the Emperor
decided that the weren't needed and that a new military needed to be
formed to progress the nation into modern times.

Important to note that he still thought a military was important just
not the one they had.

Brandon

I also recall that General Grant (one of my favorites)
was a clerk in Chicago at his age of 39 at the
beginning of the Civil War.
Observe what happens in 5 years.

Sincerely,



Changsub Lee

--- golfmandan@... wrote:

> if i recall, we've discussed the role of bushido
> before. It wasn't for keeping the samurai down, but
> for keeping them "up." That is, in a society without
> any wars, if you have a military class, you have to
> have some rational or emotional justification for
> continuing their benefits. Bushido made the samurai
> out to be more than just a soldier, and so attempted
> (I guess successfully) to justify his existence in
> the non-warring period. Kinda like for america, if
> we don't have any perceived military threats, we
> want to cut military spending. So what does the
> military do? Come up with all the "be all you can
> be" and "army of one" and "we're looking for a few
> good men" advertising campaigns... which glorifies
> the military in the public's eye, and gives it a
> purpose apart from war... namely the bettering of
> our citizens by education and experience. Bushido
> made samurai out to be "honorable citizens" or
> something to that effect...
> > All sounds about right to me. But what I meant was
> that the bushido
> > was used to keep samurai down in the edo jidai (i
> know it wasnt
> > around earlier... im glad you do, because on the
> message board right
> > now ive got a heated discussion on my hands with
> someone who
> > disagrees.).
> > I'm sure it wasn't a conspiracy the way we think
> about it... but it
> > was a useful tool utilized in this way
> nonetheless.
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com,
> "midorinotoradesu"
> > wrote:
> > > Now Kyle, I like that. You have been fair with
> all of us by
> > > explaining what you meant.
> > >
> > > I do have some thoughts about the whole lineage
> thing. I'm not an
> > > expert, so I hope Tony will correct me if I'm
> way off. I do
> > believe
> > > the practice of one on one combat existed in the
> early samurai
> > > period. Even in the Gempei war many challanges
> were shouted to
> > foes
> > > based on the existing honor system. Many
> Samurai did call out
> > their
> > > lineage before a battle. Although it seems
> silly to us now, we
> > have
> > > to remember how isolated Japan was from the rest
> of the world.
> > They
> > > had a system of fighting wars that was very
> different than any
> > > other...Until the Mongols invaded. Then the
> Samurai began to wise
> > > up. "Hey, these Mongols don't really care about
> our family do
> > they?"
> > > My understanding is that the Japanese were
> totally unprepared to
> > > fight a war with an organized mongolian military
> machine. The
> > > Kamikaze came and literally saved Japan. But
> the samurai were
> > > prepared the second time, and the
> preparations/strategic
> > philosophies
> > > that followed changed the face of Samurai
> warfare.
> > >
> > > Into the Sengoku is when Ashigaru are much more
> apparent in the
> > > armies. Long after the lineage practice had
> been proven unwise by
> > > the Mongols (I know, they were actually Korean
> and Chinese
> > > conscripts). So at this point I can't see them
> doing it either.
> > >
> > > Many years later, after a couple hundred years
> of peace, under the
> > > Tokugawa bakufu, Hagakure was written. This is
> about the point
> > that
> > > Bushido is crystalized into what we know today.
> Prior to the
> > > peaceful Edo Jidai, much of the "honor sytem"
> wasn't based on
> > those
> > > high and holy precepts that everyone thinks the
> samurai lived by.
> > It
> > > was only in the last years of the samurai that
> the bushido code
> > would
> > > influence the population.
> > >
> > > I guess, I too get a little sick of
> generalizations. I recently
> > went
> > > to a banquet that had a presentation on Samurai
> and Kensei. We
> > were
> > > informed that the Samurai lived by the Bushido
> code. They were
> > > warriors and role models that were bound by
> honor to better
> > society.
> > > They helped everyone gain greater understanding
> by standing for
> > > peace, justice, and the American way (well, they
> didn't really say
> > > that, but they might as well have). Upon
> hearing this, I could
> > hear
> > > Tony's voice with a resounding "Bunk!" There
> were good and bad
> > > Samurai. They didn't all live honorable and
> they Bushido code
> > didn't
> > > affect most of the samurai period. Surely, you
> must agree that
> > they
> > > had some system of honor. How else could we
> quantify a good or
> > bad
> > > samurai? But it wasn't "Bushido" persay. Since
> "Bushido" did not
> > > exist in the Sengoku, it probably wasn't used to
> keep the troops
> > in
> > > line. I am sure that daimyo did manipulate
> their troops but it
> > may
> > > have been much more simple and less dubious than
> you presume.
> > > Promises of fame and fortune, political status,
> social status,
> > pride,
> > > and land are other methods that could be used to
> obtain loyalty.
> > >
> > > In short, I don't think that there was a
> universal conspiracy by
> > > leaders of the time, to devise a system to keep
> a brotha down.
> > That
> > > was not the "purpose" of honor or bushido,
> although it (like
> > anything
> > > else) could be perverted and warped to serve
> sinister means.
> > >
> > > Brandon
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kyle
> Segall" <
> > > klancesegall@y...> wrote:
> > > > Try a little more than Shogun. Akechi
> Mitsuhide wouldn't have
> > been
> > > > thought so poor had he actually succeeded in
> becoming Shogun
> > (his
> > > > alliances not fallen apart, the mori finding
> out about
> > nobunaga's
> > > > death before hideyoshi). Don't kid yourself
> into think he really
> > > did
> > > > anything special. Just dumb.
> > > > The daimyo used bushido to keep troops loyal.
> Yes, some samurai
> > > > really believed in it. Obviously, take a look
> at the Hagakure to
> > > see
> > > > that. But these guys weren't the soldiers,
> they were the
> > > > peacekeeping semi-beurocrats of the Edo jidai.
> > > > You claim that all of Japan followed a system
> of honor... its
> > true
> > > > that confucian principles were generally
> followed, but thats far
> > > > from a system of honor, especially what you're
> thinking about.
> > > Think
> > > > about it; if you're a farmer, and you toil all
> day and sleep
> > what
> > > > little time you have off, what room is there
> for the "honor"
> > that
>

=== message truncated ===


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Brandon, I don't know what your motivation is in disagreeing with me. I think I've only stated the obvious. It's not like I made any giant assuming leaps. First of all, I said "kinda like"... not EXACTLY like. Second of all, YES the military advertises itself to build up its image so it can maintain its numbers AND get more money from Congress. It's not like the two things are completely separate. Third, as for there "always" being a need for military... I never said there wasn't. But the need is greater or lesser at any given time when compared with other times, and certainly PERCEIVED to be greater or lesser at any given time. In a time of "perceived" lesser need, spending gets cut.

My point was just that without all the civil wars to fight, the role of the samurai changed.

> Kinda like for america, if we don't have any perceived military
> threats, we want to cut military spending. So what does the military
> do? Come up with all the "be all you can be" and "army of one" and
> "we're looking for a few good men" advertising campaigns... which
> glorifies the military in the public's eye, and gives it a purpose
> apart from war... namely the bettering of our citizens by education
> and experience. Bushido made samurai out to be "honorable citizens"
> or something to that effect...
>
> I have to disagree with you here. The military does not come up with
> advertising campaigns to glorify the military in the public's eye.
> How does spending more of the military budget on advertising give the
> military any more money. A portion of the budget is allotted to
> recruit and retain personnel through these campaigns. This was an
> important issue about 5 years ago. The military branches were all
> significantly under mandated strength numbers.
>
> If you want to cut military spending (or more aptly if congress wants
> to do so) there isn't much the military can do about it. Congress
> makes laws about force budgets and limitaions on force strength (the
> number of personnel in each branch). Perception is an important
> issue and some people do percieve that we aren't in need of a
> military. Perceptions are not always the truth. Your perception and
> my perception may be completely different.
>
> Relating back to the samurai, there is always a need for military
> power. In the samurai days it may have been for civil obedience
> outside the existance of a war. As for America's military, I'd
> challenge you to name a period in recent history that they weren't
> invovled in some conflict. U.S. forces have been reduced by more
> than half. The military performs the same job with less people. The
> military also serves the purpose of civil protection, aid natural
> disaster victims, and any other emergency of national or local
> importance.
>
> The U.S. military is very different from the samurai. Japan was
> isolated from most of the world. By their own choice and because of
> geography. The U.S. military deals with global issues. A military
> dealing only with its own country's problems has different demands.
> In which case your second assertion may bear some truth. Only some
> truth becuase I believe the samurai were in a postion like many
> dictatorships in the world. They possessed the frightening might or
> the military and didn't require justifying themselves to the
> population they ruled. If the peasants didn't like it; what would
> they do about it? They odd situation with Japan is that they had 2
> positions of power. Shogun and Emperor. Periods existed when the
> Emperor possessed all the power and there were times when the Emperor
> was only a puppet. The peasants were'nt the only ones who didn't
> like the system. The Emperor didn't and he did something about it.
> No matter how the samurai class may have been "justified" the Emperor
> decided that the weren't needed and that a new military needed to be
> formed to progress the nation into modern times.
>
> Important to note that he still thought a military was important just
> not the one they had.
>
> Brandon
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

I agreed with you on one point and only disagreed with your opinion
toward the American military. The purpose of the advertising
campaigns are to get peopel to join. You may be right that they
aren't completly seperate. While they may also convince others that
the military is a good thing that is not their primary purpose. What
really justifies the military is the contingencies we are involved
in, the honorable behavior of the men and women who serve, and the
family members/friends who support the U.S. citizen soldiers in
service. I don't believe that congress has ever voted the military a
payraise because some constituant wrote their congress person, who
was so completely moved by a commercial. "Dog gonnit, that Army of
one thing is pretty snappy. The military needs more money. I'm
writing my congressman." Supporters of the military have been: those
who have served themselves, those who have family or friends serving,
or those who wish they could have served.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking YOU. You have valid points
and I did agree that early Japan may have attempted to justify the
samurai class by changing their role. You are entitled to an
opinion. In this case, I think I may be closer to the issue and may
be more informed. I have not based what I told you purely on
speculation. I know how some of the money is budgeted and why they
use it a certain way. Any communication may serve multiple purposes
but not all those purposes were the driving factor for creating the
communication. You believe that the military advertises to get more
money. It doesn't hurt my feelings that you think that. In some
round about way, the military may get more money. But the purpose of
those advertising campaigns is to recruit. I don't know if it could
be more obvious, since the end of those commercials tell you to
contact a recruiter not a congress person.

Back to the topic. Samurai didn't have to worry about advertising
campaigns and raising money from the public. They were in the
samurai class. They didn't need more people in it and they didn't
require the support of the general public to get paid.

Brandon

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> Brandon, I don't know what your motivation is in disagreeing with
me. I think I've only stated the obvious. It's not like I made any
giant assuming leaps. First of all, I said "kinda like"... not
EXACTLY like. Second of all, YES the military advertises itself to
build up its image so it can maintain its numbers AND get more money
from Congress. It's not like the two things are completely separate.
Third, as for there "always" being a need for military... I never
said there wasn't. But the need is greater or lesser at any given
time when compared with other times, and certainly PERCEIVED to be
greater or lesser at any given time. In a time of "perceived" lesser
need, spending gets cut.
>
> My point was just that without all the civil wars to fight, the
role of the samurai changed.
> > Kinda like for america, if we don't have any perceived military
> > threats, we want to cut military spending. So what does the
military
> > do? Come up with all the "be all you can be" and "army of one"
and
> > "we're looking for a few good men" advertising campaigns... which
> > glorifies the military in the public's eye, and gives it a
purpose
> > apart from war... namely the bettering of our citizens by
education
> > and experience. Bushido made samurai out to be "honorable
citizens"
> > or something to that effect...
> >
> > I have to disagree with you here. The military does not come up
with
> > advertising campaigns to glorify the military in the public's
eye.
> > How does spending more of the military budget on advertising give
the
> > military any more money. A portion of the budget is allotted to
> > recruit and retain personnel through these campaigns. This was
an
> > important issue about 5 years ago. The military branches were
all
> > significantly under mandated strength numbers.
> >
> > If you want to cut military spending (or more aptly if congress
wants
> > to do so) there isn't much the military can do about it.
Congress
> > makes laws about force budgets and limitaions on force strength
(the
> > number of personnel in each branch). Perception is an important
> > issue and some people do percieve that we aren't in need of a
> > military. Perceptions are not always the truth. Your perception
and
> > my perception may be completely different.
> >
> > Relating back to the samurai, there is always a need for military
> > power. In the samurai days it may have been for civil obedience
> > outside the existance of a war. As for America's military, I'd
> > challenge you to name a period in recent history that they
weren't
> > invovled in some conflict. U.S. forces have been reduced by more
> > than half. The military performs the same job with less people.
The
> > military also serves the purpose of civil protection, aid natural
> > disaster victims, and any other emergency of national or local
> > importance.
> >
> > The U.S. military is very different from the samurai. Japan was
> > isolated from most of the world. By their own choice and because
of
> > geography. The U.S. military deals with global issues. A
military
> > dealing only with its own country's problems has different
demands.
> > In which case your second assertion may bear some truth. Only
some
> > truth becuase I believe the samurai were in a postion like many
> > dictatorships in the world. They possessed the frightening might
or
> > the military and didn't require justifying themselves to the
> > population they ruled. If the peasants didn't like it; what
would
> > they do about it? They odd situation with Japan is that they had
2
> > positions of power. Shogun and Emperor. Periods existed when
the
> > Emperor possessed all the power and there were times when the
Emperor
> > was only a puppet. The peasants were'nt the only ones who didn't
> > like the system. The Emperor didn't and he did something about
it.
> > No matter how the samurai class may have been "justified" the
Emperor
> > decided that the weren't needed and that a new military needed to
be
> > formed to progress the nation into modern times.
> >
> > Important to note that he still thought a military was important
just
> > not the one they had.
> >
> > Brandon
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Sorry, but as an european fellow who doesn't know much about american civil
war, I have very hard time to understand your examples about Lee and Gant.
Would somebody be nice enough to explain me those example (and please
without campaigning in the Brandon's own and exquisite style).

Brand.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Changsub" <knorr31@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re:role of bushido


> I also recall that General Grant (one of my favorites)
> was a clerk in Chicago at his age of 39 at the
> beginning of the Civil War.
> Observe what happens in 5 years.
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Changsub Lee
>
> --- golfmandan@... wrote:
> > if i recall, we've discussed the role of bushido
> > before. It wasn't for keeping the samurai down, but
> > for keeping them "up." That is, in a society without
> > any wars, if you have a military class, you have to
> > have some rational or emotional justification for
> > continuing their benefits. Bushido made the samurai
> > out to be more than just a soldier, and so attempted
> > (I guess successfully) to justify his existence in
> > the non-warring period. Kinda like for america, if
> > we don't have any perceived military threats, we
> > want to cut military spending. So what does the
> > military do? Come up with all the "be all you can
> > be" and "army of one" and "we're looking for a few
> > good men" advertising campaigns... which glorifies
> > the military in the public's eye, and gives it a
> > purpose apart from war... namely the bettering of
> > our citizens by education and experience. Bushido
> > made samurai out to be "honorable citizens" or
> > something to that effect...
> > > All sounds about right to me. But what I meant was
> > that the bushido
> > > was used to keep samurai down in the edo jidai (i
> > know it wasnt
> > > around earlier... im glad you do, because on the
> > message board right
> > > now ive got a heated discussion on my hands with
> > someone who
> > > disagrees.).
> > > I'm sure it wasn't a conspiracy the way we think
> > about it... but it
> > > was a useful tool utilized in this way
> > nonetheless.
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com,
> > "midorinotoradesu"
> > > wrote:
> > > > Now Kyle, I like that. You have been fair with
> > all of us by
> > > > explaining what you meant.
> > > >
> > > > I do have some thoughts about the whole lineage
> > thing. I'm not an
> > > > expert, so I hope Tony will correct me if I'm
> > way off. I do
> > > believe
> > > > the practice of one on one combat existed in the
> > early samurai
> > > > period. Even in the Gempei war many challanges
> > were shouted to
> > > foes
> > > > based on the existing honor system. Many
> > Samurai did call out
> > > their
> > > > lineage before a battle. Although it seems
> > silly to us now, we
> > > have
> > > > to remember how isolated Japan was from the rest
> > of the world.
> > > They
> > > > had a system of fighting wars that was very
> > different than any
> > > > other...Until the Mongols invaded. Then the
> > Samurai began to wise
> > > > up. "Hey, these Mongols don't really care about
> > our family do
> > > they?"
> > > > My understanding is that the Japanese were
> > totally unprepared to
> > > > fight a war with an organized mongolian military
> > machine. The
> > > > Kamikaze came and literally saved Japan. But
> > the samurai were
> > > > prepared the second time, and the
> > preparations/strategic
> > > philosophies
> > > > that followed changed the face of Samurai
> > warfare.
> > > >
> > > > Into the Sengoku is when Ashigaru are much more
> > apparent in the
> > > > armies. Long after the lineage practice had
> > been proven unwise by
> > > > the Mongols (I know, they were actually Korean
> > and Chinese
> > > > conscripts). So at this point I can't see them
> > doing it either.
> > > >
> > > > Many years later, after a couple hundred years
> > of peace, under the
> > > > Tokugawa bakufu, Hagakure was written. This is
> > about the point
> > > that
> > > > Bushido is crystalized into what we know today.
> > Prior to the
> > > > peaceful Edo Jidai, much of the "honor sytem"
> > wasn't based on
> > > those
> > > > high and holy precepts that everyone thinks the
> > samurai lived by.
> > > It
> > > > was only in the last years of the samurai that
> > the bushido code
> > > would
> > > > influence the population.
> > > >
> > > > I guess, I too get a little sick of
> > generalizations. I recently
> > > went
> > > > to a banquet that had a presentation on Samurai
> > and Kensei. We
> > > were
> > > > informed that the Samurai lived by the Bushido
> > code. They were
> > > > warriors and role models that were bound by
> > honor to better
> > > society.
> > > > They helped everyone gain greater understanding
> > by standing for
> > > > peace, justice, and the American way (well, they
> > didn't really say
> > > > that, but they might as well have). Upon
> > hearing this, I could
> > > hear
> > > > Tony's voice with a resounding "Bunk!" There
> > were good and bad
> > > > Samurai. They didn't all live honorable and
> > they Bushido code
> > > didn't
> > > > affect most of the samurai period. Surely, you
> > must agree that
> > > they
> > > > had some system of honor. How else could we
> > quantify a good or
> > > bad
> > > > samurai? But it wasn't "Bushido" persay. Since
> > "Bushido" did not
> > > > exist in the Sengoku, it probably wasn't used to
> > keep the troops
> > > in
> > > > line. I am sure that daimyo did manipulate
> > their troops but it
> > > may
> > > > have been much more simple and less dubious than
> > you presume.
> > > > Promises of fame and fortune, political status,
> > social status,
> > > pride,
> > > > and land are other methods that could be used to
> > obtain loyalty.
> > > >
> > > > In short, I don't think that there was a
> > universal conspiracy by
> > > > leaders of the time, to devise a system to keep
> > a brotha down.
> > > That
> > > > was not the "purpose" of honor or bushido,
> > although it (like
> > > anything
> > > > else) could be perverted and warped to serve
> > sinister means.
> > > >
> > > > Brandon
> > > >
> > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kyle
> > Segall" <
> > > > klancesegall@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Try a little more than Shogun. Akechi
> > Mitsuhide wouldn't have
> > > been
> > > > > thought so poor had he actually succeeded in
> > becoming Shogun
> > > (his
> > > > > alliances not fallen apart, the mori finding
> > out about
> > > nobunaga's
> > > > > death before hideyoshi). Don't kid yourself
> > into think he really
> > > > did
> > > > > anything special. Just dumb.
> > > > > The daimyo used bushido to keep troops loyal.
> > Yes, some samurai
> > > > > really believed in it. Obviously, take a look
> > at the Hagakure to
> > > > see
> > > > > that. But these guys weren't the soldiers,
> > they were the
> > > > > peacekeeping semi-beurocrats of the Edo jidai.
> > > > > You claim that all of Japan followed a system
> > of honor... its
> > > true
> > > > > that confucian principles were generally
> > followed, but thats far
> > > > > from a system of honor, especially what you're
> > thinking about.
> > > > Think
> > > > > about it; if you're a farmer, and you toil all
> > day and sleep
> > > what
> > > > > little time you have off, what room is there
> > for the "honor"
> > > that
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
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___[ Pub ]____________________________________________________________
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Brand wrote:

> Sorry, but as an european fellow who doesn't know much about american civil
> war, I have very hard time to understand your examples about Lee and Gant.
> Would somebody be nice enough to explain me those example (and please
> without campaigning in the Brandon's own and exquisite style).

Imagine Wellington and Napoleon getting together the day before Waterloo to
discuss tactical variances.


Tony
(PS -- If you *must* top-post, please trim your messages.)

I'm running for Shogun of the free world. You'll see my name on the
ballot of the next election. ;p

Brandon

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Brand"
wrote:

> Sorry, but as an european fellow who doesn't know much about

american civil

> war, I have very hard time to understand your examples about Lee

and Gant.

> Would somebody be nice enough to explain me those example (and

please

> without campaigning in the Brandon's own and exquisite style).
>
> Brand.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Changsub"
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re:role of bushido
>
>
> > I also recall that General Grant (one of my favorites)
> > was a clerk in Chicago at his age of 39 at the
> > beginning of the Civil War.
> > Observe what happens in 5 years.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >
> > Changsub Lee
> >
> > --- golfmandan@a... wrote:
> > > if i recall, we've discussed the role of bushido
> > > before. It wasn't for keeping the samurai down, but
> > > for keeping them "up." That is, in a society without
> > > any wars, if you have a military class, you have to
> > > have some rational or emotional justification for
> > > continuing their benefits. Bushido made the samurai
> > > out to be more than just a soldier, and so attempted
> > > (I guess successfully) to justify his existence in
> > > the non-warring period. Kinda like for america, if
> > > we don't have any perceived military threats, we
> > > want to cut military spending. So what does the
> > > military do? Come up with all the "be all you can
> > > be" and "army of one" and "we're looking for a few
> > > good men" advertising campaigns... which glorifies
> > > the military in the public's eye, and gives it a
> > > purpose apart from war... namely the bettering of
> > > our citizens by education and experience. Bushido
> > > made samurai out to be "honorable citizens" or
> > > something to that effect...
> > > > All sounds about right to me. But what I meant was
> > > that the bushido
> > > > was used to keep samurai down in the edo jidai (i
> > > know it wasnt
> > > > around earlier... im glad you do, because on the
> > > message board right
> > > > now ive got a heated discussion on my hands with
> > > someone who
> > > > disagrees.).
> > > > I'm sure it wasn't a conspiracy the way we think
> > > about it... but it
> > > > was a useful tool utilized in this way
> > > nonetheless.
> > > >
> > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com,
> > > "midorinotoradesu"
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Now Kyle, I like that. You have been fair with
> > > all of us by
> > > > > explaining what you meant.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do have some thoughts about the whole lineage
> > > thing. I'm not an
> > > > > expert, so I hope Tony will correct me if I'm
> > > way off. I do
> > > > believe
> > > > > the practice of one on one combat existed in the
> > > early samurai
> > > > > period. Even in the Gempei war many challanges
> > > were shouted to
> > > > foes
> > > > > based on the existing honor system. Many
> > > Samurai did call out
> > > > their
> > > > > lineage before a battle. Although it seems
> > > silly to us now, we
> > > > have
> > > > > to remember how isolated Japan was from the rest
> > > of the world.
> > > > They
> > > > > had a system of fighting wars that was very
> > > different than any
> > > > > other...Until the Mongols invaded. Then the
> > > Samurai began to wise
> > > > > up. "Hey, these Mongols don't really care about
> > > our family do
> > > > they?"
> > > > > My understanding is that the Japanese were
> > > totally unprepared to
> > > > > fight a war with an organized mongolian military
> > > machine. The
> > > > > Kamikaze came and literally saved Japan. But
> > > the samurai were
> > > > > prepared the second time, and the
> > > preparations/strategic
> > > > philosophies
> > > > > that followed changed the face of Samurai
> > > warfare.
> > > > >
> > > > > Into the Sengoku is when Ashigaru are much more
> > > apparent in the
> > > > > armies. Long after the lineage practice had
> > > been proven unwise by
> > > > > the Mongols (I know, they were actually Korean
> > > and Chinese
> > > > > conscripts). So at this point I can't see them
> > > doing it either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Many years later, after a couple hundred years
> > > of peace, under the
> > > > > Tokugawa bakufu, Hagakure was written. This is
> > > about the point
> > > > that
> > > > > Bushido is crystalized into what we know today.
> > > Prior to the
> > > > > peaceful Edo Jidai, much of the "honor sytem"
> > > wasn't based on
> > > > those
> > > > > high and holy precepts that everyone thinks the
> > > samurai lived by.
> > > > It
> > > > > was only in the last years of the samurai that
> > > the bushido code
> > > > would
> > > > > influence the population.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess, I too get a little sick of
> > > generalizations. I recently
> > > > went
> > > > > to a banquet that had a presentation on Samurai
> > > and Kensei. We
> > > > were
> > > > > informed that the Samurai lived by the Bushido
> > > code. They were
> > > > > warriors and role models that were bound by
> > > honor to better
> > > > society.
> > > > > They helped everyone gain greater understanding
> > > by standing for
> > > > > peace, justice, and the American way (well, they
> > > didn't really say
> > > > > that, but they might as well have). Upon
> > > hearing this, I could
> > > > hear
> > > > > Tony's voice with a resounding "Bunk!" There
> > > were good and bad
> > > > > Samurai. They didn't all live honorable and
> > > they Bushido code
> > > > didn't
> > > > > affect most of the samurai period. Surely, you
> > > must agree that
> > > > they
> > > > > had some system of honor. How else could we
> > > quantify a good or
> > > > bad
> > > > > samurai? But it wasn't "Bushido" persay. Since
> > > "Bushido" did not
> > > > > exist in the Sengoku, it probably wasn't used to
> > > keep the troops
> > > > in
> > > > > line. I am sure that daimyo did manipulate
> > > their troops but it
> > > > may
> > > > > have been much more simple and less dubious than
> > > you presume.
> > > > > Promises of fame and fortune, political status,
> > > social status,
> > > > pride,
> > > > > and land are other methods that could be used to
> > > obtain loyalty.
> > > > >
> > > > > In short, I don't think that there was a
> > > universal conspiracy by
> > > > > leaders of the time, to devise a system to keep
> > > a brotha down.
> > > > That
> > > > > was not the "purpose" of honor or bushido,
> > > although it (like
> > > > anything
> > > > > else) could be perverted and warped to serve
> > > sinister means.
> > > > >
> > > > > Brandon
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kyle
> > > Segall" <
> > > > > klancesegall@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > Try a little more than Shogun. Akechi
> > > Mitsuhide wouldn't have
> > > > been
> > > > > > thought so poor had he actually succeeded in
> > > becoming Shogun
> > > > (his
> > > > > > alliances not fallen apart, the mori finding
> > > out about
> > > > nobunaga's
> > > > > > death before hideyoshi). Don't kid yourself
> > > into think he really
> > > > > did
> > > > > > anything special. Just dumb.
> > > > > > The daimyo used bushido to keep troops loyal.
> > > Yes, some samurai
> > > > > > really believed in it. Obviously, take a look
> > > at the Hagakure to
> > > > > see
> > > > > > that. But these guys weren't the soldiers,
> > > they were the
> > > > > > peacekeeping semi-beurocrats of the Edo jidai.
> > > > > > You claim that all of Japan followed a system
> > > of honor... its
> > > > true
> > > > > > that confucian principles were generally
> > > followed, but thats far
> > > > > > from a system of honor, especially what you're
> > > thinking about.
> > > > > Think
> > > > > > about it; if you're a farmer, and you toil all
> > > day and sleep
> > > > what
> > > > > > little time you have off, what room is there
> > > for the "honor"
> > > > that
> > >
> > === message truncated ===
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

_____________________________________________________________________

> > Envie de discuter en "live" avec vos amis ? Télécharger MSN

Messenger

> > http://www.ifrance.com/_reloc/m la 1ère messagerie instantanée de

France

>
>
> ___[ Pub ]

____________________________________________________________

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> http://rencontre.rencontres.com/index.php?origine=4

 But really, I'm not campaigning. I have not aligned myself with any
partisan candidate or party. I simply feel obligigated to defend the
U.S. military against speculation. Mostly because I want to believe
that the military is doing right. I brought up President Bush only
because he is the head of the military. Commander in Chief. I
believe that his motivations for the war were just. Congress thought
so. Congress declared war.

Unlike the samurai, the U.S. military citizens do need to have a
place in the hearts of the public. The military and the public are
the same people. The U.S. does not have a military class. Since
citizen soldiers are no different than other citizens there is a
desire to be accepted. America learned that the military needs the
public as a result of the Vietnam conflict.

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "midorinotoradesu" <
bkirkham@m...> wrote:

> I'm running for Shogun of the free world. You'll see my name on

the

> ballot of the next election. ;p
>
> Brandon
>