Question concerning The Last Samurai

Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I don't know if this
question has been address or not. It's about the movie The Last
Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven. I though that
this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that they had
relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have his head shaved?

Miburo

--- Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote:

> Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> don't know if this
> question has been address or not. It's about the
> movie The Last
> Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> I though that
> this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> they had
> relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> his head shaved?
>
> Miburo

That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
the person took religious vows.

Nate

>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Nate Ledbetter [mailto:ltdomer98@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:03 PM
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Question concerning The Last Samurai



--- Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote:

> Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> don't know if this
> question has been address or not. It's about the
> movie The Last
> Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> I though that
> this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> they had
> relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> his head shaved?
>
> Miburo

>That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
>having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
>the person took religious vows.

>Nate

It might have to do with the fact that he's been dealing with Leukemia for a few
years now.....

So this was just a blunder by the filmmakers? It's a huge blunder, if
ya ask me. Makes no sense, specially when in a scene from the movie
they showed the importance that samurai place on their hair style when
Katsumoto's son's hair was cut down by the soldiers to disgrace and
humiliate him. Yet his father's head's completely shaved!

Miburo

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- Saitoh Hajime wrote:
> > Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> > don't know if this
> > question has been address or not. It's about the
> > movie The Last
> > Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> > I though that
> > this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> > they had
> > relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> > his head shaved?
> >
> > Miburo
>
> That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
> having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
> the person took religious vows.
>
> Nate
>
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

I believe the samurai would also cut their hair to swear or make a
vow. I haven't seen the movie yet, but is that a possibility? The
only other film that I can think of with a shaven samurai is the
Seven Samurai. But he shaved his head to disguise himeslef as a
monk. Plus, he was ronin which could change his attitude entirely.
Long out of service with a lord, he didn't seem to think like the
average samurai. To him, at that moment it was more important to
save the child in danger.
Is it possible that Saitoh Hajime could have shaved his head in a vow
or rebellion against some samurai traditions? Perhaps, refuting one
of the more "important" samurai trademarks could emphasize his own
conviction to a greater degree. A simple statement, "My commitment
to the Emperor and the Samurai class are more important than the
symbol of my rank in society."


Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Saitoh Hajime" <
the_sam_99@y...> wrote:

> So this was just a blunder by the filmmakers? It's a huge blunder,

if

> ya ask me. Makes no sense, specially when in a scene from the movie
> they showed the importance that samurai place on their hair style

when

> Katsumoto's son's hair was cut down by the soldiers to disgrace and
> humiliate him. Yet his father's head's completely shaved!
>
> Miburo
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter <

ltdomer98@y...>

> wrote:
> >
> > --- Saitoh Hajime wrote:
> > > Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> > > don't know if this
> > > question has been address or not. It's about the
> > > movie The Last
> > > Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> > > I though that
> > > this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> > > they had
> > > relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> > > his head shaved?
> > >
> > > Miburo
> >
> > That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
> > having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
> > the person took religious vows.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

--- samurai-listowner@... wrote:

>>
> It might have to do with the fact that he's been
> dealing with Leukemia for a few
> years now.....

MAJI DE?

Nate

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Yeah, any bio of Watanabe Ken mentions it.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- samurai-listowner@s... wrote:
> >>
> > It might have to do with the fact that he's been
> > dealing with Leukemia for a few
> > years now.....
>
>
> MAJI DE?
>
> Nate
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Yeah, any bio of Watanabe Ken mentions it.

That would probably have something to do with it then.
Of course, they could always have put one of those
fake samurai hairpieces on him, like in the Taiga
Drama.

Nate


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Could be, but then they should have tried to accomodate that into the
story, like when Mark Hamill had that motorcycle accident and had
reconstructive surgery in his face (which is why it looks different
after Star Wars), Lucas made all that ice monster scene in The Empire
Strikes back to explain his scar. Same could have been done with Watanabe.

Miburo

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nate Ledbetter [mailto:ltdomer98@y...]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:03 PM
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Question concerning The Last Samurai
>
>
>
> --- Saitoh Hajime wrote:
> > Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> > don't know if this
> > question has been address or not. It's about the
> > movie The Last
> > Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> > I though that
> > this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> > they had
> > relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> > his head shaved?
> >
> > Miburo
>
> >That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
> >having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
> >the person took religious vows.
>
> >Nate
>
> It might have to do with the fact that he's been dealing with
Leukemia for a few
> years now.....

I got the impression that he cut his hair for religious reasons for a period of mourning, prayer and fasting. It gave me the idea that he gave this rebellion a lot of forethought.

Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote: So this was just a blunder by the filmmakers? It's a huge blunder, if
ya ask me. Makes no sense, specially when in a scene from the movie
they showed the importance that samurai place on their hair style when
Katsumoto's son's hair was cut down by the soldiers to disgrace and
humiliate him. Yet his father's head's completely shaved!

Miburo

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

>
> --- Saitoh Hajime wrote:
> > Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> > don't know if this
> > question has been address or not. It's about the
> > movie The Last
> > Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> > I though that
> > this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> > they had
> > relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> > his head shaved?
> >
> > Miburo
>
> That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
> having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
> the person took religious vows.
>
> Nate
>
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got the same impression... but I can't remember if there was any dialogue in the movie that hinted at that, or if my mind just made it up to make sense of it...

> I got the impression that he cut his hair for religious reasons for a period of
> mourning, prayer and fasting. It gave me the idea that he gave this rebellion a
> lot of forethought.
>
> Saitoh Hajime <the_sam_99@...> wrote: So this was just a blunder by the
> filmmakers? It's a huge blunder, if
> ya ask me. Makes no sense, specially when in a scene from the movie
> they showed the importance that samurai place on their hair style when
> Katsumoto's son's hair was cut down by the soldiers to disgrace and
> humiliate him. Yet his father's head's completely shaved!
>
> Miburo
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
> wrote:
> >
> > --- Saitoh Hajime wrote:
> > > Hi, I haven't checked this group in a while so I
> > > don't know if this
> > > question has been address or not. It's about the
> > > movie The Last
> > > Samurai, the lead samurai Katsumoto's head's shaven.
> > > I though that
> > > this was a sign of disgrace among samurai, or that
> > > they had
> > > relinquished to a priest's life...why did he have
> > > his head shaved?
> > >
> > > Miburo
> >
> > That bothered me too (and I notice these things,
> > having no hair and all that). It usually was shaved if
> > the person took religious vows.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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>
>
>
>
>

i suppose i missed most of the last samurai discussion, yet i guess
that a lot more went into that movie behind the facade of strong
speeches (which aren't that much cliché after all when you're not
quite an unsuspecting bystander to bushidô etc).

by the way, what was a "samurai's haircut". in last samurai you see
the people having full hair (and losing it is regarded shameful), on
the other hand i have read that a samurai's forehead was shaven. so
this changed through the years, i suppose. or not?


oh and by the way, yep, i'm new to this group. hail all you folks. as
an afterthought, excuse all typing and other errors, my left wrist is
malfunctioning (blame kendo), i'm not a native english speaker and i
don't ever read my emails twice before sending.

- johannes

Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
It has always been my understanding that there were several types of
haircuts for samurai as they went through their life. Most for men
involved shaving the pate of the head, but young boys would leave the
forelock intact, and draw it over the top and tie it with the rest of
the cue...
Keep in mind that there were samurai woman, too, and they did not
shave their heads.
It has also been an understanding that it was a shamefull thing to
have the top knot (wage) removed under combat circumstances, but a
samurai, on taking buddhist vows would shave their head.
This did not have to be polished, and obviously grew back in over
time, requiring maintenance, so could look bushy. I do not think this
would have been a disgrace, though.
Also, there were men who naturally went bald...and that would hardly
be a disgrace...
So, I do not think that the Samurai in the movie was living in shame,
as he had removed his own hair.
When the soldiers removed the son's wage, it was more of a fact that
he was humiliated in public, in front of other people. Not cool...yet
he chose to help his father in the final end-game, rather than just
kill himself.
Just thoughts

Date Saburou Yukiie
Yama Kaminari Ryu

golfmandan@... wrote:

> I got the same impression... but I can't remember if there was any dialogue in the movie that hinted at that, or if my mind just made it up to make sense of it...
>
>>I got the impression that he cut his hair for religious reasons for a period of
>>mourning, prayer and fasting. It gave me the idea that he gave this rebellion a
>>lot of forethought.

You know, in a film where (1) the Meiji government employed Americans as
military advisors, (2) an American learns Japanese and to fight as a samurai in
three months, (3) samurai in 16th C. armour charge 19th C. artillary
emplacements, and (4) ninja in black pajamas attack out of nowhere on behest of
the Imperial court...

I don't think the issue of how or why they got a haircut right matters.


Tony

Somehow, whenever the list goes crazy, Tony manages to bring us back to
sanity!

Paul W



At 04:31 PM 2/13/04 -0500, you wrote:

>golfmandan@... wrote:
>
>> I got the same impression... but I can't remember if there was any

dialogue in the movie that hinted at that, or if my mind just made it up to
make sense of it...

>>
>>>I got the impression that he cut his hair for religious reasons for a

period of

>>>mourning, prayer and fasting. It gave me the idea that he gave this

rebellion a

>>>lot of forethought.
>
>You know, in a film where (1) the Meiji government employed Americans as
>military advisors, (2) an American learns Japanese and to fight as a

samurai in

>three months, (3) samurai in 16th C. armour charge 19th C. artillary
>emplacements, and (4) ninja in black pajamas attack out of nowhere on

behest of

>the Imperial court...
>
>I don't think the issue of how or why they got a haircut right matters.
>
>
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

> You know, in a film where (1) the Meiji government employed Americans as
> military advisors, (2) an American learns Japanese and to fight as a samurai in
> three months, (3) samurai in 16th C. armour charge 19th C. artillary
> emplacements, and (4) ninja in black pajamas attack out of nowhere on behest of
> the Imperial court...
>
> I don't think the issue of how or why they got a haircut right matters.

you gotta remember it's a western hollywood movie, after all. so they
traded anachronisms for drama. i agree, i don't quite like it either,
yet the over-all effect of the movie was nice.
at least they got a lot of the fighting styles and all the
circumstantial "stuff" (for simplicity's sake) and even some of the
philosophy right.

maybe you'll be annoyed with me, but did samurai armour change so
dramatically during the centuries, or is it just the plain fact of
16th against 19th century weaponry you're pointing at in (3)?

where exactly is the problem with the last part of (4)?

-j

Konnichi wa, sensei,
Well, the film was at least as entertaining as "Excaliber" was...and
the armor looked a damn sight better!
;-)

Date

>
> You know, in a film where (1) the Meiji government employed

Americans as

> military advisors, (2) an American learns Japanese and to fight as a

samurai in

> three months, (3) samurai in 16th C. armour charge 19th C. artillary
> emplacements, and (4) ninja in black pajamas attack out of nowhere

on behest of

> the Imperial court...
>
> I don't think the issue of how or why they got a haircut right matters.
>
>
> Tony

The problem with #4 is first that ninja didn't wear black pajamas, and second, the Meiji court couldn't have summoned them for the mission, b/c ninjas hadn't even really been around for 200 years. Other than that, there wasn't much of a problem. (chuckles).

> > You know, in a film where (1) the Meiji government employed Americans as
> > military advisors, (2) an American learns Japanese and to fight as a samurai
> in
> > three months, (3) samurai in 16th C. armour charge 19th C. artillary
> > emplacements, and (4) ninja in black pajamas attack out of nowhere on behest
> of
> > the Imperial court...
> >
> > I don't think the issue of how or why they got a haircut right matters.
> you gotta remember it's a western hollywood movie, after all. so they
> traded anachronisms for drama. i agree, i don't quite like it either,
> yet the over-all effect of the movie was nice.
> at least they got a lot of the fighting styles and all the
> circumstantial "stuff" (for simplicity's sake) and even some of the
> philosophy right.
>
> maybe you'll be annoyed with me, but did samurai armour change so
> dramatically during the centuries, or is it just the plain fact of
> 16th against 19th century weaponry you're pointing at in (3)?
>
> where exactly is the problem with the last part of (4)?
>
> -j
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Well, the thought process (if any) that the costume designer or
stylist or whoever does the hairstyles, put into it would be
interesting. I assume the 'hairstyle' of the lead actor is usually
specifically decided for a reason, to reflect his personality or
something like that.

>
> I don't think the issue of how or why they got a haircut right

matters.

>
>
> Tony

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

>>
> I don't think the issue of how or why they got a
> haircut right matters.
>
>
> Tony

But, But but...if we can't argue minutiae here, what
can we argue??

Nate

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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> But, But but...if we can't argue minutiae here, what
> can we argue??

Well, I'll give you that...

Tony

Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

> Konnichi wa, sensei,
> Well, the film was at least as entertaining as "Excaliber" was...and
> the armor looked a damn sight better!

But you can't beat Excalibur's music.

Tony

Karmina Burana! I put that music on to shave, and go toidy!
(Former Marine, you know...)

Date

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant"
wrote:

> Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:
>
> > Konnichi wa, sensei,
> > Well, the film was at least as entertaining as "Excaliber" was...and
> > the armor looked a damn sight better!
>
> But you can't beat Excalibur's music.
>
> Tony

last samurai
his sword
turning blunt

john tiong chunghoo


__________________________________
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> Konnichi wa, sensei,
> Well, the film was at least as entertaining as "Excaliber" was...and
> the armor looked a damn sight better!
> ;-)
>
> Date

Agreed, though The Last Samurai was *supposed* to be based on a actual
historical period, whereas Excalibur was based entirely on a book: Malory's
'Morte d'Arthur'.
Michael

My understanding is that is really about many incidents that took
place at that time. There were many small groups of Samurai who
did what Ken Watanabe`s character did. It really was a wide scale
yet disorganized rebellion against turning their backs on traditional
Japanese values.

Although I live here, I realized how little I had known about the
Samurai and their value system. I study yoga and Buddhism, and both
reminded me of the values of the Samurai. Maybe that is surprising,
yet all three value a quieting of the mind, and spirtual study it
would seem.

Kevin

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Pamela Grayer"
wrote:

>
>
> > Konnichi wa, sensei,
> > Well, the film was at least as entertaining as "Excaliber"

was...and

> > the armor looked a damn sight better!
> > ;-)
> >
> > Date
>
> Agreed, though The Last Samurai was *supposed* to be based on a

actual

> historical period, whereas Excalibur was based entirely on a book:

Malory's

> 'Morte d'Arthur'.
> Michael