Hi Tim
Message: 23
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 00:33:45 EST
From:
Eponymous13@...
Subject: Re: Re: Samurai is not christian
In a message dated 2/8/2004 10:49:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
medhal8@... writes:
> Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON from the
> beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the pope
with
> a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce
christianity
> to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD, disguissing
> christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
>
Okay, just a question here: which would have been better: for them to
have used deception and get in to attempt the spread of their message or
tell
the truth, probably get killed and never get a word in about their message?
--------------------------
Well, this is what (not you, but Xavier) I call hipocrisy.
Christian scriptures say in a very clear way that if the word of the (greek)
evangelion, is not wanted, the missionary should shake his sandals, to take
all the dust from the land or house, and go elsewhere to never coming back.
Buddhism, Taoism and Confucionism never needed to spread lies to be present
in Japan, and was even subject of study in high schools specially in Samurai
Families.
To me, missionary work can take on many disguises, because it's a matter of
using whatever means you have to to get your message out and if you believe
it's
that important, you die for it. As someone said, it's a matter of WHICH
(L)ord you're dying for. In their cases, they were dying for a Lord Not Of
This
World. They adhered absolutely to the tenets of bushido in that they served
their highest Lord to the death.
------------------
Well, had ya forgot that they had a previous Lord to whom they was already
in oath of Loyalty? It is called threason anyway. So, in this way, it is not
bushido.
Show me one samurai who never lied or used
falsehood or murdered or committed some form of treason to protect his
lord --
human or Otherwise -- and I'll show you a liar. :-)
-----------------
Well, I admit that I must study more about the life of individual samurais
in general than great batles and events in Japan History, however I know
about The Saint of the Sword (The Kensei), and never heard about him needing
to break oathes and telling lies to accomplish his missions. (read Go Rin No
Shou)
As for Nobunaga, what about the threat of the Ikko Ikki? Do you
think
they wanted to party hearty? Do you think they were going to try and
proselytize him and his army? Hardly likely. It is unlikely that a
majority of the
people who stood in Nobunaga's way, even if they did congeal into a potent
fighting force, would have stood a chance against a brilliant general such
as the
leader of the Oda and his right hand man, Toyotomi, this is true. But that
wasn't the issue. The issue was that anyone who stood in Oda's way of
unifying
Japan -- in WHATEVER WAY THAT WAS -- was seen as a threat. Any threat -- no
matter how great or small, or how justified or unjustified -- must be
removed.
Therefore, the genocide, however indefencible to us, was very defencible to
HIM, and quite frankly, that's the only opinion about the issue that really
mattered in the end, although it is nice to bat it around and say "what if"
and
"what was he thinking?" now with four hundred years plus of hindsight.
And I must throw my hat into the ring about it too -- I may not be a
Catholic (either belief or by church membership), but these anti-Catholic
posts
have GOT to stop.
Anyway, that's my two "not-worth-much" cents. 8-) Take care, y'all.
8-)
Tim
---------------------------
"All gifts demand a compensation"
(Old Viking Saying)
It is just to go back to the topic and not preaching or embelezling
christianity history related to Samurai.
About Nobunaga, ya forgot the point that he did all that massacre under the
political and finantial support of the Jesus Company (Jesuites), and yes,
poor villagers was killed for just dwelling near the temples. And concerning
the temples weaponry, since the beggining, certain forms of buddhism,
specially Dhyana, has contained Martial Arts under their spiritual
practices, not only to their own safety, but as a trainning to achieve
enlightenment. (it was presented in the Pure Land monasteries in Japan,
because in China, the Pure Land Teachings and Dhyana Teachings was taunt
together from the same patriarch, Bodhidharma who also had a linneage from
Nagarjuna too.).
References:
The Bodhisattva Warriors
Terence Dukes
Wisdom Publishing
(it is in english)
Although (under my knowledge), Martial Arts are not present in Tibetan
Vajrayana, there is several references in their sutras, shastras and
treatises using weapon iconography both representing Demonic Forces working
against karma, sentient beings, etc or in hand of a Wrathful deities to cut
negativities, such as the three poisons of the mind.
So, they had weapons, and what? They was not a big fan of Nobunaga's abuses,
and so what? Does they attempted to take over control of Japan, went to
Nobunaga's house to kill him, to justificate such actions?
Concerning you throwing your hat about that, it displeases me that people do
so much to act in defense of a institution that gave so much support to such
atrocities, including Germany's Nazism, but no one said anything about a
serious demonstration of RACISM and discrimination against my country
(Brazil), in a message that was totally OFF TOPIC, and of course, a SERIOUS
VIOLATION not only against Yahoogroups TOS (Therms of Service) but against
even some international laws. I sent my protests to the list owner and he
asked me for more tolerance to ensure peace. And All what I did was to say
that I was very happy that in this recent fiction movie inside an period of
Japan History, that they did a positive reference instead of the usual
racist discrimination USA Movies did against asiatic in the past presenting
asiatics as monkeys and simmilar extremisms. Like those that made the
fammous Mr. Bruce Lee so upset in his life. (and in this way I was happy
that The Last Samurai did that, even if not 100% historically accurated) So,
I even respectfully ask you to, before take the role of "most holy than
thou", to think about this issues.
My country is not perfect, and I know that, however racism here is crime
punishable with jail and I am very proud of that.
Regards
Octavio Augusto