Re: The ignorant

Mr. Baker,

> I am sorry

Do not be sorry, for you cannot change. And would not where it even for the better.

> but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> of my life.

A commendable time spent learning. Kudos.

> I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise movement
> or position. This is simply not true.

Did you invent the Hakama and devise it's uses? I believe that you didn't. You only know of it's uses inside Budo as you learn it,
and are in no position to comment on any other arts uses of the hakama.

> The Samurai
> when going in to combat without armor preffered to
> were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi.

As does anybody with an ounce of common sense.

> This
> allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama
> itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this
> happen)

I agree. This I have seen for myself.

> When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> hakama so it did not apply.

However, I don't believe that this paragraph has anything atall to do with the subject matter being discussed.

> The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and
> neither is their movie incarnation. They were usually
> reffered to as Shinobi and originally were not as
> specialized as the movies make them appear. They were
> used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in
> order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would
> be employed to kill. But I have heard of very few if
> any cases with the latter. A good book on the subject
> of the origin and truths behind the "Ninja" is Stephen
> Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of and
> has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the price.

> There are alot of myths regarding the history of the
> Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)

Who mentioned movies? Who mentioned historically correct details regarding the ninja? How would you be an authority on the ninja?
You study Budo by your own admission. It is very rude by every cultures beliefs to denounce that of which you are ignorant.

And ignorant of such matters you are.

Whether the term "Ninja" appeared in Japan _ever_ is no matter. Nowdays it is an accepted layman's term. Whether you like it or
not. And the world will use it without you.

I have respect for the way of Bu, but not for you, because you are ignorant, and have no respect for anything but your own
"knowledge". Of which you probably know nothing outside of Budo teachings, and the odd bit of book reading here or there by authors
who are also no authority on the subjects which they publish books on.

That is my last comment on the matter on the list, if you wish to comment youself, which you no doubt would accept to do without
thought, then you have my e-mail address and have my invitation to mail me personally for any reason.

Kumo.

Natsu Kusa Ya
Tsuamono Domo Ga
Yume No Ato

Basho Matsuo.

----- Original Message -----

From: erik baker


> Hello,
>
> I am sorry but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> of my life. I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise movement
> or position. This is simply not true. The Samurai
> when going in to combat without armor preffered to
> were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi. This
> allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama
> itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this
> happen) When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> hakama so it did not apply.
>
> The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and
> neither is their movie incarnation. They were usually
> reffered to as Shinobi and originally were not as
> specialized as the movies make them appear. They were
> used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in
> order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would
> be employed to kill. But I have heard of very few if
> any cases with the latter. A good book on the subject
> of the origin and truths behind the "Ninja" is Stephen
> Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of and
> has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the price.
>
> There are alot of myths regarding the history of the
> Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)
>
> If anyone looks back through the emails they will find
> an explanation given by me on the general usage of the
> hakama as well as from Anthony J. Bryant, Both of
> these are good. There was really nothing mysterious
> about it. If you look at the clothing from the yayoi
> period forward you will see similarity's leading to
> the advent of the Hakama. The Japanese as with every
> othr nation were very practical in the development of
> their clothing. A good example of this is the Long
> Hakama worn in the Shoguns palace during the Tokugawa
> period which restricted movement making attacks on
> others impossible. Also the short hakama worn in the
> Summer by some foot soldiers and attendants in the
> kamakura period.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Musashi
>
> P.s. I left out alot of other examples.
>
>
> --- KUM0 <kum0@...> wrote:
> > Konnichi-wa,
> >
> > It has been my experience of martial arts (for 11
> > years, through 8 different arts), that the samurai
> > used to wear them for all
> > of the above purposes, but also for one other.
> >
> > There is a sitting posture that the ninja adopted
> > when impersonating a samurai, so that it was easy to
> > move if attacked
> > unexpectantly, or preparing to attack unexpectantly.
> >
> > Although I can't reveal the seated posture, I can,
> > however, tell you about it.
> >
> > This seated posture looks identical to the casual
> > seated posture in modern day Japan, with the legs
> > crossed at the shins, and
> > knees almost resting on the ankles.
> >
> > This is still alive in martial arts that have
> > techniques adopted from the samurai arts. The hakama
> > hid whether or not they
> > were seated like this in particular, or _however_
> > they were seated in fact.
> >
> > Kumo.
> >
> > Natsu Kusa Ya
> > Tsuamono Domo Ga
> > Yume No Ato
> >
> > Basho.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: konos
> >
> > Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period
> > and in the hitatare of 12th century, hakama is not
> > obligatory. It's not a
> > daimyo's command. Nevertheless samurai were more or
> > less obliged to follow the "rich and famous" status
> > of the court they were
> > implicated in. First of all samurai were warriors.
> > So even the obi was the right dressing only if it
> > could carry tanto or
> > wakizashi.
> >
> > Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
> > Konstantinos
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
> http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

KUMO ...

Are you ten years old?
If you disagree with someone, so be it, but that was the rudest display of
adolescent behavior I have seen in a very long time.
Show some respect.
People from various martial arts are passed verbal transmissions of their
"history" and the reasons for various traditions revolving around that art.
As mentioned in this diatribe, I am a student of Aikido. Daito ryu more
specifically.
In our art, the hakama is gifted to a shodan. It is believed by our shihan
that the hakama was worn for both ceremony and ease of movement for combat
in an "in-house" circumstance.
In another art there may have been different traditions or circumstances
surrounding its use.
However, regardless of any one teaching, you must consider the fact that the
hakama was Japanese, not the tool of martial arts. It was worn by
practitioners and "lay" folk alike. Martial arts all stemmed from India and
developed into numerous styles over many generations throughout all of the
orient, taking on various characteristics by each major clan and teacher.
The hakama was just a garment that simply followed the Japanese during their
day, and when one clan broke from another ... or one family divided and
became two ... when they moved on they took their hakamas with them. Perhaps
after the fact each determined that it had certain combative attributes. Who
can truly say?
I know that YOU weren't there any more than Eric was, so certainly you can't
answer the question with any more authority than he could.
In any case, people have different reasons for the things they think and
believe, and not all of it is rootless. Unless YOU are the expert on all
these matters, which I do not believe you are, try to have a little
sensitivity in rebuking information you BELIEVE is incorrect.

Alex

----- Original Message -----
From: "KUM0" <kum0@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 6:22 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: The ignorant


> Mr. Baker,
>
> > I am sorry
>
> Do not be sorry, for you cannot change. And would not where it even for
the better.
>
> > but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> > of my life.
>
> A commendable time spent learning. Kudos.
>
> > I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> > of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise movement
> > or position. This is simply not true.
>
> Did you invent the Hakama and devise it's uses? I believe that you didn't.
You only know of it's uses inside Budo as you learn it,
> and are in no position to comment on any other arts uses of the hakama.
>
> > The Samurai
> > when going in to combat without armor preffered to
> > were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi.
>
> As does anybody with an ounce of common sense.
>
> > This
> > allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama
> > itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this
> > happen)
>
> I agree. This I have seen for myself.
>
> > When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> > hakama so it did not apply.
>
>
>
> However, I don't believe that this paragraph has anything atall to do with
the subject matter being discussed.
>
> > The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and
> > neither is their movie incarnation. They were usually
> > reffered to as Shinobi and originally were not as
> > specialized as the movies make them appear. They were
> > used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in
> > order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would
> > be employed to kill. But I have heard of very few if
> > any cases with the latter. A good book on the subject
> > of the origin and truths behind the "Ninja" is Stephen
> > Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of and
> > has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the price.
>
> > There are alot of myths regarding the history of the
> > Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)
>
> Who mentioned movies? Who mentioned historically correct details regarding
the ninja? How would you be an authority on the ninja?
> You study Budo by your own admission. It is very rude by every cultures
beliefs to denounce that of which you are ignorant.
>
> And ignorant of such matters you are.
>
> Whether the term "Ninja" appeared in Japan _ever_ is no matter. Nowdays
it is an accepted layman's term. Whether you like it or
> not. And the world will use it without you.
>
> I have respect for the way of Bu, but not for you, because you are
ignorant, and have no respect for anything but your own
> "knowledge". Of which you probably know nothing outside of Budo teachings,
and the odd bit of book reading here or there by authors
> who are also no authority on the subjects which they publish books on.
>
> That is my last comment on the matter on the list, if you wish to comment
youself, which you no doubt would accept to do without
> thought, then you have my e-mail address and have my invitation to mail me
personally for any reason.
>
> Kumo.
>
> Natsu Kusa Ya
> Tsuamono Domo Ga
> Yume No Ato
>
> Basho Matsuo.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: erik baker
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am sorry but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> > of my life. I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> > of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise movement
> > or position. This is simply not true. The Samurai
> > when going in to combat without armor preffered to
> > were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi. This
> > allowed full movement without tripping on the hakama
> > itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this
> > happen) When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> > hakama so it did not apply.
> >
> > The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and
> > neither is their movie incarnation. They were usually
> > reffered to as Shinobi and originally were not as
> > specialized as the movies make them appear. They were
> > used to set fire to enemy encampments and castles in
> > order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they would
> > be employed to kill. But I have heard of very few if
> > any cases with the latter. A good book on the subject
> > of the origin and truths behind the "Ninja" is Stephen
> > Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold of and
> > has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the price.
> >
> > There are alot of myths regarding the history of the
> > Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)
> >
> > If anyone looks back through the emails they will find
> > an explanation given by me on the general usage of the
> > hakama as well as from Anthony J. Bryant, Both of
> > these are good. There was really nothing mysterious
> > about it. If you look at the clothing from the yayoi
> > period forward you will see similarity's leading to
> > the advent of the Hakama. The Japanese as with every
> > othr nation were very practical in the development of
> > their clothing. A good example of this is the Long
> > Hakama worn in the Shoguns palace during the Tokugawa
> > period which restricted movement making attacks on
> > others impossible. Also the short hakama worn in the
> > Summer by some foot soldiers and attendants in the
> > kamakura period.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Musashi
> >
> > P.s. I left out alot of other examples.
> >
> >
> > --- KUM0 <kum0@...> wrote:
> > > Konnichi-wa,
> > >
> > > It has been my experience of martial arts (for 11
> > > years, through 8 different arts), that the samurai
> > > used to wear them for all
> > > of the above purposes, but also for one other.
> > >
> > > There is a sitting posture that the ninja adopted
> > > when impersonating a samurai, so that it was easy to
> > > move if attacked
> > > unexpectantly, or preparing to attack unexpectantly.
> > >
> > > Although I can't reveal the seated posture, I can,
> > > however, tell you about it.
> > >
> > > This seated posture looks identical to the casual
> > > seated posture in modern day Japan, with the legs
> > > crossed at the shins, and
> > > knees almost resting on the ankles.
> > >
> > > This is still alive in martial arts that have
> > > techniques adopted from the samurai arts. The hakama
> > > hid whether or not they
> > > were seated like this in particular, or _however_
> > > they were seated in fact.
> > >
> > > Kumo.
> > >
> > > Natsu Kusa Ya
> > > Tsuamono Domo Ga
> > > Yume No Ato
> > >
> > > Basho.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: konos
> > >
> > > Besides it's ocassional apperance at the Edo Period
> > > and in the hitatare of 12th century, hakama is not
> > > obligatory. It's not a
> > > daimyo's command. Nevertheless samurai were more or
> > > less obliged to follow the "rich and famous" status
> > > of the court they were
> > > implicated in. First of all samurai were warriors.
> > > So even the obi was the right dressing only if it
> > > could carry tanto or
> > > wakizashi.
> > >
> > > Greetings from Greece, especially to Amphipolis.
> > > Konstantinos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
> > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1
> >
> >
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > ---
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> ---
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hello,

you have come on and written these long booklength
responses twice now with absolutley no respect for the
people who wrote the originals. Then you have the
nerve to say that they should be "sensitivity" when
rebuking responses. I am not even sure who you are
responding to but just chill out man. No one here has
ever said that there info was more valid. This is a
discussion group anyway right. People put stuff up
and others respond. the only one getting all upset is
you... If you are going to put up a response that has
to do with your side of a argument please do so.
However if you are going to critisize how others
respond and what they respond with please just join
another group. You asked the question whether the
person you are responding to is ten years old. You
are the one obviously offended and not able to control
yourself. Are You ten years old???? Please if you
have some response to a question someone sends or a
disagreement with info that is sent feel free to
respond but stop insulting and sending responses that
have no value to the group as a whole.

Musashi


--- "Alexander M. Frazier" <punish10@...>
wrote:

> KUMO ...
>
> Are you ten years old?
> If you disagree with someone, so be it, but that was
> the rudest display of
> adolescent behavior I have seen in a very long time.
> Show some respect.
> People from various martial arts are passed verbal
> transmissions of their
> "history" and the reasons for various traditions
> revolving around that art.
> As mentioned in this diatribe, I am a student of
> Aikido. Daito ryu more
> specifically.
> In our art, the hakama is gifted to a shodan. It is
> believed by our shihan
> that the hakama was worn for both ceremony and ease
> of movement for combat
> in an "in-house" circumstance.
> In another art there may have been different
> traditions or circumstances
> surrounding its use.
> However, regardless of any one teaching, you must
> consider the fact that the
> hakama was Japanese, not the tool of martial arts.
> It was worn by
> practitioners and "lay" folk alike. Martial arts all
> stemmed from India and
> developed into numerous styles over many generations
> throughout all of the
> orient, taking on various characteristics by each
> major clan and teacher.
> The hakama was just a garment that simply followed
> the Japanese during their
> day, and when one clan broke from another ... or one
> family divided and
> became two ... when they moved on they took their
> hakamas with them. Perhaps
> after the fact each determined that it had certain
> combative attributes. Who
> can truly say?
> I know that YOU weren't there any more than Eric
> was, so certainly you can't
> answer the question with any more authority than he
> could.
> In any case, people have different reasons for the
> things they think and
> believe, and not all of it is rootless. Unless YOU
> are the expert on all
> these matters, which I do not believe you are, try
> to have a little
> sensitivity in rebuking information you BELIEVE is
> incorrect.
>
> Alex
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "KUM0" <kum0@...>
> To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 6:22 PM
> Subject: [samuraihistory] Re: The ignorant
>
>
> > Mr. Baker,
> >
> > > I am sorry
> >
> > Do not be sorry, for you cannot change. And would
> not where it even for
> the better.
> >
> > > but I have practiced Budo for over 12 years
> > > of my life.
> >
> > A commendable time spent learning. Kudos.
> >
> > > I have to disagree. There are all kinds
> > > of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise
> movement
> > > or position. This is simply not true.
> >
> > Did you invent the Hakama and devise it's uses? I
> believe that you didn't.
> You only know of it's uses inside Budo as you learn
> it,
> > and are in no position to comment on any other
> arts uses of the hakama.
> >
> > > The Samurai
> > > when going in to combat without armor preffered
> to
> > > were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi.
> >
> > As does anybody with an ounce of common sense.
> >
> > > This
> > > allowed full movement without tripping on the
> hakama
> > > itself.(anyone who practices Aikido has had this
> > > happen)
> >
> > I agree. This I have seen for myself.
> >
> > > When wearing armor they didn't even wear
> > > hakama so it did not apply.
> >
> >
> >
> > However, I don't believe that this paragraph has
> anything atall to do with
> the subject matter being discussed.
> >
> > > The Word "ninja" is not hstorically correct and
> > > neither is their movie incarnation. They were
> usually
> > > reffered to as Shinobi and originally were not
> as
> > > specialized as the movies make them appear.
> They were
> > > used to set fire to enemy encampments and
> castles in
> > > order to cause confusion. Sometimes rarely they
> would
> > > be employed to kill. But I have heard of very
> few if
> > > any cases with the latter. A good book on the
> subject
> > > of the origin and truths behind the "Ninja" is
> Stephen
> > > Turnbulls, Ninja. It is very hard to get ahold
> of and
> > > has to be ordered from Europe but is worth the
> price.
> >
> > > There are alot of myths regarding the history of
> the
> > > Martial arts.(Ninja Especially)
> >
> > Who mentioned movies? Who mentioned historically
> correct details regarding
> the ninja? How would you be an authority on the
> ninja?
> > You study Budo by your own admission. It is very
> rude by every cultures
> beliefs to denounce that of which you are ignorant.
> >
> > And ignorant of such matters you are.
> >
> > Whether the term "Ninja" appeared in Japan _ever_
> is no matter. Nowdays
> it is an accepted layman's term. Whether you like it
> or
> > not. And the world will use it without you.
> >
> > I have respect for the way of Bu, but not for you,
> because you are
> ignorant, and have no respect for anything but your
> own
> > "knowledge". Of which you probably know nothing
> outside of Budo teachings,
> and the odd bit of book reading here or there by
> authors
> > who are also no authority on the subjects which
> they publish books on.
> >
> > That is my last comment on the matter on the list,
> if you wish to comment
> youself, which you no doubt would accept to do
> without
> > thought, then you have my e-mail address and have
> my invitation to mail me
> personally for any reason.
> >
> > Kumo.
> >
> > Natsu Kusa Ya
> > Tsuamono Domo Ga
> > Yume No Ato
> >
> > Basho Matsuo.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> > From: erik baker
> >
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I am sorry but I have practiced Budo for over 12
> years
> > > of my life. I have to disagree. There are all
> kinds
> > > of ideas that the Hakama was worn to disguise
> movement
> > > or position. This is simply not true. The
> Samurai
> > > when going in to combat without armor preffered
> to
> > > were there hakama tucked up some under the Obi.
> This
> > > allowed full movement without tripping on the
> hakama
>

=== message truncated ===


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There was NO need to be so impolite, caling someone
"ignorant" just because their info MAY be innaccurate,
is childish.

what makes you such an authority on the subject? how
much research have you done? books read?

Even if you are the ultimate master of all martial
knowledge, this does not give you the right to so
rudley rebuke another person.

The teachings of Bushido clearly state that
impoliteness is a thing not worthy of a Samurai, or
one who studies the Martial arts. Think on this for
future reference.

__________________________________________________
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