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The Forty Nine Ronin

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#3657 [2004-02-07 11:30:27]

The Forty Nine Ronin

by keyoke_ot_acoma

Is the story true or myth? If true can anyone provide enlightenment?
Who was their lord and why did they become Ronin? Who was their
target? Is it true the only 48 were given a samurai's death? Where
are they buried? I'd be grateful for any relevant information.

Keyoke.

[Next #3660]
#3660 [2004-02-07 16:43:37]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SEVEN Ronin

by cepooooo

On Feb 7, 2004, at 9:30 AM, keyoke_ot_acoma wrote:

> Is the story true or myth?

True, even thou most of the modern versions (especially Allyn's) dig a
lot into fiction.
Anyway, it was the ONLY instance during the Tokugawa in which retainers
avenged their lord. And - to make things clearer, Ako had 380 samurai:
only 47 sacrificed their lives...

> If true can anyone provide enlightenment?
> Who was their lord and why did they become Ronin?

Lord Asano of Ako. He had to commit seppuku, and there go your Ronin.

> Who was their
> target?

Kira, a corrupted Master of ceremonies.

> Is it true the only 48 were given a samurai's death?

As far as I know, they were 47+one who gave up the night before (to
bonk repeatedly his girlfriend). The 47 committed ritual seppuku, the
bonker just killed himself in a backstreet of Edo.

> Where
> are they buried?

With Lord Asano, at Sengaku temple, Tokyo.

> I'd be grateful for any relevant information.
>
> Keyoke.

I strongly suggest you check out the movie "Chushingura," the version
made in the 6os, with Toshiro Mifune. It's available on DVD. If you're
not into masochism, check out the 1941-42 version - more than 4 hours,
and you do not ever see the assault on Kira's mansion!!! The one with
Kim-taku (titled 47/1) is funny, but highly inaccurate. Finally, the
best version on paper is the bunraku libretto, translated by Donald
Keene. If I am not wrong, the bunraku play was out in Edo TWO WEEKS
after the real event took place!

Hope it helped,
Bye!
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #3657] [Next #3661]
#3661 [2004-02-07 17:52:06]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SEVEN Ronin

by samuraiwm

>>Anyway, it was the ONLY instance during the Tokugawa in which retainers
avenged their lord. And - to make things clearer, Ako had 380 samurai:
only 47 sacrificed their lives...<<

Actually no. The Bito article mentioned below lists four other similar
instances before the Ako story. Albeit the Ako one is the most elaborate and
the most famous.

> Is it true the only 48 were given a samurai's death?

>>As far as I know, they were 47+one who gave up the night before (to
bonk repeatedly his girlfriend). The 47 committed ritual seppuku, the
bonker just killed himself in a backstreet of Edo.<<

Actually it was 46. One member Terasaka Kichiemon was missing. What happened
to him is a matter of great debate; some argue he ran away at the last
moment, others say he was ordered away by Oishi to report either to Asano's
brother or widow.

.> I'd be grateful for any relevant information.
>
> Keyoke.

I would strongly recommend a series of articles in last years Monumenta
Nipponica starting with issue 58:1. The first by Henry Smith was a general
overview, the second by Bito Masahide is a history of the incident. More
articles on other aspects of the story are promised.

[Previous #3660] [Next #3663]
#3663 [2004-02-07 19:21:05]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by cepooooo

On Feb 7, 2004, at 3:52 PM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:

> I would strongly recommend a series of articles in last years Monumenta
> Nipponica starting with issue 58:1. The first by Henry Smith was a
> general
> overview, the second by Bito Masahide is a history of the incident.
> More
> articles on other aspects of the story are promised.

Thanks for the information, I'll be sure to check those out!! I am
curious to read about the other 4 stories: are you sure they were
retainers? There were many (some 200) cases of samurai or groups of
samurai taking revenge for somebody of their kin, but I knew only of
the 47 (or 46?) Ronin as retainers who avenged their lord.
cepo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #3661] [Next #3667]
#3667 [2004-02-07 23:32:51]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by samuraiwm

< curious to read about the other 4 stories: are you sure they were
retainers? There were many (some 200) cases of samurai or groups of
samurai taking revenge for somebody of their kin, but I knew only of
the 47 (or 46?) Ronin as retainers who avenged their lord.
cepo>>

Sorry jumped the gun a bit; the four incidents Bito relates were of attacks
on Bakufu officials in Edo castle and the response of the government to
them.

The first was Naramura Magokuro in 1627. Second was Toyoshima Nobumitsu in
1628. Third was Mizuno Ihei in 1670. Fourth was the famous assassination of
Hotta Masatoshi by Inaba Masayasu. The exact details can be found in Bito
article pages 154-155 in Monumenta Nipponica 58:2.

[Previous #3663] [Next #3668]
#3668 [2004-02-07 23:43:25]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by cepooooo

On Feb 7, 2004, at 9:32 PM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:

>
> Sorry jumped the gun a bit; the four incidents Bito relates were of
> attacks
> on Bakufu officials in Edo castle and the response of the government to
> them.
>
> The first was Naramura Magokuro in 1627. Second was Toyoshima
> Nobumitsu in
> 1628. Third was Mizuno Ihei in 1670. Fourth was the famous
> assassination of
> Hotta Masatoshi by Inaba Masayasu. The exact details can be found in
> Bito
> article pages 154-155 in Monumenta Nipponica 58:2.

Aw ok... for a few hours you had me think Dr. Varley was WRONG...
hehehe. However, there was another episode of vendetta of a "lord:" it
was actually a lady in waiting who avenged the noble woman she was
working for - I don't have any detail, but I'm positive I've read about
it. So, it's 2 out of 200 cases...

I can access Monumenta Nipponica Online and download articles on PDF
(guys let me know if you need something), but... only until 1998. Does
anybody know if the last years are online as well?? Or can anybody
post/scan...?

Thanks
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #3667] [Next #3669]
#3669 [2004-02-07 22:52:58]

Re: The Forty Nine Ronin

by shingen32

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "keyoke_ot_acoma"
wrote:
> Is the story true or myth? If true can anyone provide
enlightenment?
> Who was their lord and why did they become Ronin? Who was their
> target? Is it true the only 48 were given a samurai's death? Where
> are they buried? I'd be grateful for any relevant information.
>
> Keyoke.

Yes it is true and not a myth,but there was only 47 Ronin and not 49
Their lord was Asano Takumi no Kami he was the lord of the castle of
ako in the province of harima,he was at the shoguns palace,and was
to be instructed on court ceremonies,by Kotsuke no suke, who wanted
payment for his services when they should be free,one day kotsuke
insulted Asano Takumi to the point that asano drew his sword and
struck kotsuke wounding him,asano was arrested and later sentanced
to commit seppuku his castle was confiscated and his men were told
to disband which for a samurai ment to become a ronin,they are
buried at a temple called Sengakuji in the suburb of Takanawa, there
is a lot more to this story such as more details than i have listed
but there are several books out there on the subject,
1 is called The 47 ronin by John Allyn,
and another is Tales of old japan by A.B.Mitford(Lord redesdale),i
hope that helps out ..........Dave

[Previous #3668] [Next #3671]
#3671 [2004-02-08 00:32:30]

Re: The Forty SEVEN Ronin

by keyoke_ot_acoma

Thank to all who posted on this, it gives me something to go on,
thanks once again.

Keyoke.

[Previous #3669] [Next #3672]
#3672 [2004-02-08 03:53:17]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by samuraiwm

< (guys let me know if you need something), but... only until 1998. Does
anybody know if the last years are online as well?? Or can anybody
post/scan...?

Thanks
cepo>>

I photocopied the articles (and keep them in binders w/other articles from
MN TASJ JJS etc.) I could recopy mine and send it to you if you like
(breaking about a dozen copyright laws).

[Previous #3671] [Next #3676]
#3676 [2004-02-08 08:35:31]

Re: The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by klancesegall

Are there any articles concerning the Bakumatsu in it?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Cesare Polenghi
wrote:
> On Feb 7, 2004, at 9:32 PM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:
>
> >
> > Sorry jumped the gun a bit; the four incidents Bito relates were
of
> > attacks
> > on Bakufu officials in Edo castle and the response of the
government to
> > them.
> >
> > The first was Naramura Magokuro in 1627. Second was Toyoshima
> > Nobumitsu in
> > 1628. Third was Mizuno Ihei in 1670. Fourth was the famous
> > assassination of
> > Hotta Masatoshi by Inaba Masayasu. The exact details can be
found in
> > Bito
> > article pages 154-155 in Monumenta Nipponica 58:2.
>
> Aw ok... for a few hours you had me think Dr. Varley was WRONG...
> hehehe. However, there was another episode of vendetta of
a "lord:" it
> was actually a lady in waiting who avenged the noble woman she was
> working for - I don't have any detail, but I'm positive I've read
about
> it. So, it's 2 out of 200 cases...
>
> I can access Monumenta Nipponica Online and download articles on
PDF
> (guys let me know if you need something), but... only until 1998.
Does
> anybody know if the last years are online as well?? Or can anybody
> post/scan...?
>
> Thanks
> cepo
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #3672] [Next #3680]
#3680 [2004-02-08 13:52:21]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by cepooooo

Probably yes, but I would need to go through the whole articles' list...
I don't remember the webpage having a search...
Do you know of any specific issue?
cepo

On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:35 AM, Kyle Segall wrote:

> Are there any articles concerning the Bakumatsu in it?
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Cesare Polenghi
> wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 2004, at 9:32 PM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Sorry jumped the gun a bit; the four incidents Bito relates were
> of
> > > attacks
> > > on Bakufu officials in Edo castle and the response of the
> government to
> > > them.
> > >
> > > The first was Naramura Magokuro in 1627. Second was Toyoshima
> > > Nobumitsu in
> > > 1628. Third was Mizuno Ihei in 1670. Fourth was the famous
> > > assassination of
> > > Hotta Masatoshi by Inaba Masayasu. The exact details can be
> found in
> > > Bito
> > > article pages 154-155 in Monumenta Nipponica 58:2.
> >
> > Aw ok... for a few hours you had me think Dr. Varley was WRONG...
> > hehehe. However, there was another episode of vendetta of
> a "lord:" it
> > was actually a lady in waiting who avenged the noble woman she was
> > working for - I don't have any detail, but I'm positive I've read
> about
> > it. So, it's 2 out of 200 cases...
> >
> > I can access Monumenta Nipponica Online and download articles on
> PDF
> > (guys let me know if you need something), but... only until 1998.
> Does
> > anybody know if the last years are online as well?? Or can anybody
> > post/scan...?
> >
> > Thanks
> > cepo
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ---
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> Samurai Archives store:http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
>
>
>
>
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[Previous #3676] [Next #3694]
#3694 [2004-02-09 06:03:58]

Re: [samuraihistory] Re: The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by samuraiwm

<>

Oodles and oodles. This journal has been in action since 1939 (with a brief
break during and after WWII)

Check this place for a list of articles

http://monumenta.cc.sophia.ac.jp/mnindex.html

Also look for articles from other journals

http://www.oriental.cam.ac.uk/jbib/meijires.html

[Previous #3680] [Next #3697]
#3697 [2004-02-09 16:18:35]

Re: The Forty SIX Ronin :o)

by klancesegall

Oh, never mind. Thought you would have a search engine or something,
nevermind. :)

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Cesare Polenghi
wrote:
> Probably yes, but I would need to go through the whole articles'
list...
> I don't remember the webpage having a search...
> Do you know of any specific issue?
> cepo
>
> On Feb 8, 2004, at 6:35 AM, Kyle Segall wrote:
>
> > Are there any articles concerning the Bakumatsu in it?
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Cesare Polenghi

> > wrote:
> > > On Feb 7, 2004, at 9:32 PM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Sorry jumped the gun a bit; the four incidents Bito relates
were
> > of
> > > > attacks
> > > > on Bakufu officials in Edo castle and the response of the
> > government to
> > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > The first was Naramura Magokuro in 1627. Second was Toyoshima
> > > > Nobumitsu in
> > > > 1628. Third was Mizuno Ihei in 1670. Fourth was the famous
> > > > assassination of
> > > > Hotta Masatoshi by Inaba Masayasu. The exact details can be
> > found in
> > > > Bito
> > > > article pages 154-155 in Monumenta Nipponica 58:2.
> > >
> > > Aw ok... for a few hours you had me think Dr. Varley was
WRONG...
> > > hehehe. However, there was another episode of vendetta of
> > a "lord:" it
> > > was actually a lady in waiting who avenged the noble woman she
was
> > > working for - I don't have any detail, but I'm positive I've
read
> > about
> > > it. So, it's 2 out of 200 cases...
> > >
> > > I can access Monumenta Nipponica Online and download articles
on
> > PDF
> > > (guys let me know if you need something), but... only until
1998.
> > Does
> > > anybody know if the last years are online as well?? Or can
anybody
> > > post/scan...?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > cepo
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store:http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
> >  
> > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >  
> > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to theYahoo!
Terms of Service.
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Previous #3694] [Next #3717]
#3717 [2004-02-10 03:12:04]

Re: [samuraihistory] The Forty SEVEN Ronin

by Barry Thomas

Hello All,

Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> I strongly suggest you check out the movie "Chushingura,"
> the version made in the 6os, with Toshiro Mifune. It's
> available on DVD. If you're not into masochism, check
> out the 1941-42 version - more than 4 hours, and you
> do not ever see the assault on Kira's mansion!!!

So far no one has mentioned the film "The Assasination of Ryoma". I have a copy
and it is just magnificent. The colour, the characters, the whole thing is just
one unbelievable 4 and a half hours-ish of "WOW" viewing. No doubt some
liberties were taken and I don't have the detailed knowledge to comment.
However, if anyone would care to take this up I'd enjoy reading more about it.

Best regards,

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

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