Pop quiz time

I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you rank :-)

http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...

10 correct answers - shogun
9 correct answers -daimyo
8 correct answers -general
7 correct answers -hatamoto
6 correct answers -samurai (good)
5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and blind)
0 correct answers -eta



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

...General Cepo (8/10)

On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:34 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:

> I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you rank :-)
>
> http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-
> feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...
>
> 10 correct answers - shogun
> 9 correct answers -daimyo
> 8 correct answers -general
> 7 correct answers -hatamoto
> 6 correct answers -samurai (good)
> 5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
> 4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
> 3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
> 2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
> 1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and blind)
> 0 correct answers -eta
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ---
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daimyo Tim. (9 of 10)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 2:56 AM, Eponymous13@... wrote:

> Daimyo Tim.  (9 of 10)

Hai, dono... :o)

cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

8 out of ten. But the Date Masamune question is wrong. He lost his eye from
a childhood disease not in battle. And he never let it hang out.

Speaking of esoteric Sengoku knowledge, I just saw a Japanese TV show recorded
sometime last year that had two brothers who were about age 12 or 13, who were
experts on Sengoku history, they had memorized every single little detail. Among
other things, they were able to rattle off all of Oda Nobunagas aunts, uncles,
brothers, and sisters, and knew who was adopted by who and knew both the titles
and adopted names of pretty much anyone you could think of. They had them up
against random people on the street, then college-level history students and
eventually up against a professor of Sengoku history at Shizuoka university. They
knew the sengoku inside out, but lost to the professor by one question - one of
the only questions I actually knew the answer to...! The question was: What was
the original full name of the warrior who lead the battle against Mori Motonari at
the battle of Itsukushima? (Sue Takafusa). Although the two kids stumped the
professor after the little competition with the following question:

"What was the biggest event of 1601?"

Think about it, then check the answer below:



















"The first aniversary of the battle of Sekigahara"!

Classic stuff. ;)

Dave Jackson wrote:

> I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you rank :-)
>
> http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...

The only reason I scored full was because the only possible answer that "made
sense" was Masamune -- but that's not what happened to his eye (despite what one
or two movies have done). He was ill as a child and lost use of the eye. It was
removed.

Tony

I'm trying to grasp the whole "There are no Samurai" argument by patching up some holes in my thought process.

1. Did samurai exist before they were made into a class?

2. Why is legitimacy by the government so important to the abolishment of the class of samurai?

3. Why did some samurai families hide their swords instead of obeying the government?

4. When the WW II officers carried swords did they, the military, or anyone else consider them samurai?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Japanese officers of WWII onsidered themselves samurai... hence why they carried and actually used the swords.. whereas everyone lse at that time wore swords only for dress occaisions..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:43:27
From: Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:




I'm trying to grasp the whole "There are no Samurai" argument by patching up some holes in my thought process.

1. Did samurai exist before they were made into a class?

2. Why is legitimacy by the government so important to the abolishment of the class of samurai?

3. Why did some samurai families hide their swords instead of obeying the government?

4. When the WW II officers carried swords did they, the military, or anyone else consider them samurai?




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What other question did you miss? I can't believe that
I would beat you!!?? I'd give credit for the Masamune
question...

Nate

--- William&Mikiko Letham <mickey.letham@...>
wrote:

> 8 out of ten. But the Date Masamune question is
> wrong. He lost his eye from
> a childhood disease not in battle. And he never let
> it hang out.
>
>

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BOW DOWN BEFORE THE SHOGUN!!!! Nate-Kubo-sama!!!!


--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> ...General Cepo (8/10)
>
> On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:34 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:
>
> > I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you
> rank :-)
> >
> >
>

http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-

>
> >
>

feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...

> >
> > 10 correct answers - shogun
> > 9 correct answers -daimyo
> > 8 correct answers -general
> > 7 correct answers -hatamoto
> > 6 correct answers -samurai (good)
> > 5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
> > 4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
> > 3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
> > 2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
> > 1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and blind)
> > 0 correct answers -eta
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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Josh Wilson wrote:

> The Japanese officers of WWII onsidered themselves samurai... hence why they carried and actually used the swords.. whereas everyone lse at that time wore swords only for dress occaisions..
>

Ummm...


No.


Tony

My loyalty to you, Shogun Tony. Ironically, the eye question I lucked out
on. The one I got wrong was the buddhist one, which was probably the easiest of
the lot.

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well Im a natural Hatamoto.

May I be the first to swear felty to the new Shogun!!

Nate-Kubo-sama

*bows to the mighty Shogun*
--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> BOW DOWN BEFORE THE SHOGUN!!!! Nate-Kubo-sama!!!!
>
>
> --- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:
> > ...General Cepo (8/10)
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:34 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:
> >
> > > I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you
> > rank :-)
> > >
> > >
> >
>

http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-

> >
> > >
> >
>

feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...

> > >
> > > 10 correct answers - shogun
> > > 9 correct answers -daimyo
> > > 8 correct answers -general
> > > 7 correct answers -hatamoto
> > > 6 correct answers -samurai (good)
> > > 5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
> > > 4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
> > > 3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
> > > 2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
> > > 1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and
> blind)
> > > 0 correct answers -eta
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
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Daimyo here...
--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> ...General Cepo (8/10)
>
> On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:34 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:
>
> > I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you
> rank :-)
> >
> >
>

http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-

>
> >
>

feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...

> >
> > 10 correct answers - shogun
> > 9 correct answers -daimyo
> > 8 correct answers -general
> > 7 correct answers -hatamoto
> > 6 correct answers -samurai (good)
> > 5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
> > 4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
> > 3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
> > 2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
> > 1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and blind)
> > 0 correct answers -eta
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives
> store:http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
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I stand corrected, in my defence Turnbull made me do it. :-)

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony J. Bryant
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Pop quiz time


Dave Jackson wrote:
> I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you rank :-)
>
> http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...

The only reason I scored full was because the only possible answer that "made
sense" was Masamune -- but that's not what happened to his eye (despite what one
or two movies have done). He was ill as a child and lost use of the eye. It was
removed.

Tony



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Samurai. Should have been Hatamoto. See William's point below.

>8 out of ten. But the Date Masamune question is wrong. He lost his eye from
>a childhood disease not in battle. And he never let it hang out.
>

Mykaru/MJPeters

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Konnichi wa, tomodachi...
O genki desuka?
I am very interesed in the historic origins of the Date clan-
Who were their relatives by blood?
Who were their relatives by marriage?
The Date seem to have been one of those clans that were
notable enough to register, yet seemed not to contribute to any of
the major recorded actions...
What were their domains of residence, and the places they
migrated? I know they vaguely lived in the Mutsu/Dewa regions,
and I know they also spread southward, but wha specific kuni
did they reside in?
How early did they start to show up in histories or writings?
Whom were they allied to in the pre-sengoku jidai?
OK - lots of questions...plenty of room for answers...
Domo arigato...

Christopher

> >8 out of ten. But the Date Masamune question is wrong.

Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..

Wilson


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Could not find the quiz. Gomen! Was looking forward to it too!-Keiman and
Kei.

>From: Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Pop quiz time
>Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:04:14 -1000
>
>...General Cepo (8/10)
>
>On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:34 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:
>
> > I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you rank :-)
> >
> > http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?quizname=040204001541-
> > feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@...
> >
> > 10 correct answers - shogun
> > 9 correct answers -daimyo
> > 8 correct answers -general
> > 7 correct answers -hatamoto
> > 6 correct answers -samurai (good)
> > 5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
> > 4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
> > 3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
> > 2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
> > 1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and blind)
> > 0 correct answers -eta
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives:http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store:http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
> > �
> > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > �
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> >
> >
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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On Feb 4, 2004, at 4:39 AM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:

> 8 out of ten. But the Date Masamune question is wrong. He lost his eye
> from
> a childhood disease not in battle. And he never let it hang out.

Yeah I had that one screwed up too: I thought it was a tricky question
and I picked another guy... Do I get promoted to Daimyo? C'mon... I'd
settle for a minor domain...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> BOW DOWN BEFORE THE SHOGUN!!!! Nate-Kubo-sama!!!!

I am knocking my head on the tatami
general cepo (soon to be daimyo)

On Feb 4, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

> Josh Wilson wrote:
>
> > The Japanese officers of WWII onsidered themselves samurai... hence
> why they carried and actually used the swords.. whereas everyone lse
> at that time wore swords only for dress occaisions..
> >
>
> Ummm...
>
>
> No.
>
>
> Tony

Well, there is the (in)famous story of the two Japanese generals Mukai
and Noda in Nanking, who competed to see how many Chinese heads could
chop in a day (for fun...). Nonetheless, there is NO sufficient
documentation to prove the story was true (Iris Chang says is true, but
it is very debatable). One of the arguments to disimiss the story as a
lie says that it would need quite a few katana to chop several heads.
The count was supposedly 106 to 105 for Mukai.
Anyway, I hope I did not open a can of worms. Horrible things happened
in Nanking, we all know that.
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:

> I stand corrected, in my defence Turnbull made me do it. :-)
>  

He probably used a Nippon Rekishi manga as source...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I WILL NEVER BOW DOWN!!!!! come and get me, my army awaits. Oh by the way, on the way here there is a lovely little spot to stop and have some tea called Dengakuhazama you really should stop and check it out, I here its lovely there this time of year.

----- Original Message -----
From: Cesare Polenghi
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Pop quiz time



On Feb 4, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> BOW DOWN BEFORE THE SHOGUN!!!! Nate-Kubo-sama!!!!

I am knocking my head on the tatami
general cepo (soon to be daimyo)



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For some reason, you have to copy and paste the entire thing, both
lines, into your browser. Yahoo seems to have screwed up the link,
the same thing happened with my quiz.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Jack McElwee"
wrote:

> Could not find the quiz. Gomen! Was looking forward to it too!-

Keiman and

> Kei.
>
>
> >From: Cesare Polenghi
> >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Pop quiz time
> >Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 22:04:14 -1000
> >
> >...General Cepo (8/10)
> >
> >On Feb 3, 2004, at 7:34 PM, Dave Jackson wrote:
> >
> > > I made a quiz to take just for fun see how you rank :-)
> > >
> > > http://www.quizyourfriends.com/yourquiz.php?

quizname=040204001541-

> > > feudal~p20Japanese~p20history~p20quiz&email=nihontonut@s...
> > >
> > > 10 correct answers - shogun
> > > 9 correct answers -daimyo
> > > 8 correct answers -general
> > > 7 correct answers -hatamoto
> > > 6 correct answers -samurai (good)
> > > 5 correct answers -samurai (fair)
> > > 4 correct answers -ashigaru (good)
> > > 3 correct answers -ashigaru (fair)
> > > 2 correct answers -ashigaru (poor)
> > > 1 correct answers -ashigaru (deaf mute and blind)
> > > 0 correct answers -eta
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
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On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:

> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers
> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of
> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
>
> Wilson

I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
- so far we're in the 1890s...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanx.. Im interested in hearing more on the subject..

Wilson


--

--------- Original Message ---------
DATE: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 17:38:01
From: Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:

> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers
> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of
> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
>
> Wilson

I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
- so far we're in the 1890s...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In regard to whether the WW2 officers in the Imperial Army considered themselves 'samurai', I would like to add a specific example of my neighbour in Hiroshima. Over rather a few tokkuri of warm sake in recent months he has been regaling me with stories of when he served in Manchuria, much as my grandfather did with his stories from North Africa, Italy, the Middle East and India. He clearly found that while officers were more than often not of samurai stock, but considered themselves the successors of that class, perhaps in a similar manner to which many yakuza consider themselves modern samurai.
So why did they carry swords? Why do officers in many officers around the world carry swords? If you view the photographs of the carnage on the Western Front during WW1 you will still see officers leading their troops sword in hand. Why? Distinction. Still, the officer has to be seen as superior to his/her men/women (not to be accused of sexism) and the sword is an obvious symbol universally of such a principle. A man with a sword has always ranked higher than one with a spear or musket.
M.Lorimer

Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:

> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers
> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of
> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
>
> Wilson

I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
- so far we're in the 1890s...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would add that the sword is an universal symbol of martial power,
perhaps especially in Japan, ehere not only reminds of the samurai, but
is one of the three holy objects in Shinto, the other two being a
mirror and a jewel.
bye
cepo

On Feb 6, 2004, at 6:15 PM, Michael Lorimer wrote:

> in Hiroshima. Over rather a few tokkuri of warm sake in recent months
> he has been regaling me with stories of when he served in Manchuria,
> much as my grandfather did with his stories from North Africa, Italy,
> the Middle East and India. He clearly found that while officers were
> more than often not of samurai stock, but considered themselves the
> successors of that class, perhaps in a similar manner to which many
> yakuza consider themselves modern samurai.
> So why did they carry swords? Why do officers in many officers around
> the world carry swords? If you view the photographs of the carnage on
> the Western Front during WW1 you will still see officers leading their
> troops sword in hand. Why? Distinction.  Still, the officer has to be
> seen as superior to his/her men/women (not to be accused of sexism)
> and the sword is an obvious symbol universally of such a principle.  A
> man with a sword has always ranked higher than one with a spear or
> musket.
> M.Lorimer
>
> Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:
>
> On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:
>
> > Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the
> officers
> > considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> > consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> > yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point
> of
> > a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> > functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> > and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> > camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> > channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> > they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> > subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> > for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
> >
> > Wilson
>
> I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
> sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
> - so far we're in the 1890s...
> cepo
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Okay, but why a Katana instead of a calvery sword like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried Katanas.

Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...> wrote:In regard to whether the WW2 officers in the Imperial Army considered themselves 'samurai', I would like to add a specific example of my neighbour in Hiroshima. Over rather a few tokkuri of warm sake in recent months he has been regaling me with stories of when he served in Manchuria, much as my grandfather did with his stories from North Africa, Italy, the Middle East and India. He clearly found that while officers were more than often not of samurai stock, but considered themselves the successors of that class, perhaps in a similar manner to which many yakuza consider themselves modern samurai.
So why did they carry swords? Why do officers in many officers around the world carry swords? If you view the photographs of the carnage on the Western Front during WW1 you will still see officers leading their troops sword in hand. Why? Distinction. Still, the officer has to be seen as superior to his/her men/women (not to be accused of sexism) and the sword is an obvious symbol universally of such a principle. A man with a sword has always ranked higher than one with a spear or musket.
M.Lorimer

Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:

> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers
> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of
> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
>
> Wilson

I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
- so far we're in the 1890s...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris Ketterling wrote:

> Okay, but why a Katana instead of a calvery sword like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried Katanas.

Tradition. That's the sword that devolped in Japan. That's what they went with.


Tony

because the katana is the typical japanese sword.. obviously the reason the japanese used them... and w/ their curved blade they were very much like a saber.. also, the japanese had some saber-type swords during WWII..

Wilson



--

--------- Original Message ---------

DATE: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:18:14
From: Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Cc:

>Okay, but why a Katana instead of a calvery sword like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried Katanas.
>
>Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...> wrote:In regard to whether the WW2 officers in the Imperial Army considered themselves 'samurai', I would like to add a specific example of my neighbour in Hiroshima. Over rather a few tokkuri of warm sake in recent months he has been regaling me with stories of when he served in Manchuria, much as my grandfather did with his stories from North Africa, Italy, the Middle East and India. He clearly found that while officers were more than often not of samurai stock, but considered themselves the successors of that class, perhaps in a similar manner to which many yakuza consider themselves modern samurai.
>So why did they carry swords? Why do officers in many officers around the world carry swords? If you view the photographs of the carnage on the Western Front during WW1 you will still see officers leading their troops sword in hand. Why? Distinction. Still, the officer has to be seen as superior to his/her men/women (not to be accused of sexism) and the sword is an obvious symbol universally of such a principle. A man with a sword has always ranked higher than one with a spear or musket.
>M.Lorimer
>
>Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:
>
>On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:
>
>> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers
>> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
>> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
>> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of
>> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
>> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
>> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
>> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
>> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
>> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
>> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
>> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
>>
>> Wilson
>
>I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
>sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
>- so far we're in the 1890s...
>cepo
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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As officers in western armies link (even now) themselves to the western
''knights'' with the carring of a cavalry sword, so the japanese
officers linked (no more after WWII) themselves to ''their'' knights,
incidentally Samurai. In XVIII century western officers still whore
gorgets (totally useless) as a symbol of their status.
Is a matter of idealistic symbolism. During the Meiji Era there were not
katana mounting in japanese army but only and totally ''western''
mounting. Still remained the link with the ''knights'' ideals. Later,
when nationalism rised (too much), a sort of strange ''Tachi'' mounting
replaced the westerns one.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Chris Ketterling [mailto:chrisketterling1@...]
Inviato: domenica 8 febbraio 2004 5.18
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Trying to learn

Okay, but why a Katana instead of a calvery sword like other (US)
militaries. Even pilots carried Katanas.

Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...> wrote:In regard to whether the
WW2 officers in the Imperial Army considered themselves 'samurai', I
would like to add a specific example of my neighbour in Hiroshima. Over
rather a few tokkuri of warm sake in recent months he has been regaling
me with stories of when he served in Manchuria, much as my grandfather
did with his stories from North Africa, Italy, the Middle East and
India. He clearly found that while officers were more than often not of
samurai stock, but considered themselves the successors of that class,
perhaps in a similar manner to which many yakuza consider themselves
modern samurai.
So why did they carry swords? Why do officers in many officers around
the world carry swords? If you view the photographs of the carnage on
the Western Front during WW1 you will still see officers leading their
troops sword in hand. Why? Distinction. Still, the officer has to be
seen as superior to his/her men/women (not to be accused of sexism) and
the sword is an obvious symbol universally of such a principle. A man
with a sword has always ranked higher than one with a spear or musket.
M.Lorimer

Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:

> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers

> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of

> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
>
> Wilson

I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
- so far we're in the 1890s...
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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In addition to the reasons allready mentioned is the fact that they were
actually used in combat. Of the officers and nco's,
(the people who actually took swords into battle in WW2) many of them had
training in iado, kendo and kenjutsu. They complained that the kyugunto, a
western style saber used during the Russo-Japanese war until the mid 1930s
was to brittle and inflexable for combat and it also did not allow for a two
handed grip. Also there were strong nationalistic feelings at the time and
many people thought that they should be using there own swords instead of
copying an inferior western style. at the time of WW2 an officer could
purchase a machine made sword, or for extra cost he could order a handmade
one. In addition many officers were decended from samurai and many family
swords were remounted in military mounts and taken to war. I am sure there
was a great deal of pride in taking great grandads sword to war.(some of
which had family mons on the mounts)
I dont think they thought the were samurai, but I am sure that they saw
themselves in a similer light, same ideals and values anyway.(When they
asked a group of fighter pilots if anyone would fly a plane into a ship the
response was allways almost 100% YES!!) I have couple of WW2 mounted swords,
one is late war poor quality and machine made, the other dates from the mid
1500s. And both show evidence of actual use in combat in WW2.

Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Josh Wilson" <lordwilson@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Trying to learn


> because the katana is the typical japanese sword.. obviously the reason
the japanese used them... and w/ their curved blade they were very much like
a saber.. also, the japanese had some saber-type swords during WWII..
>
> Wilson
>
>
>
> --
>
> --------- Original Message ---------
>
> DATE: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:18:14
> From: Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Cc:
>
> >Okay, but why a Katana instead of a calvery sword like other (US)
militaries. Even pilots carried Katanas.
> >
> >Michael Lorimer <mijalo_jp@...> wrote:In regard to whether the
WW2 officers in the Imperial Army considered themselves 'samurai', I would
like to add a specific example of my neighbour in Hiroshima. Over rather a
few tokkuri of warm sake in recent months he has been regaling me with
stories of when he served in Manchuria, much as my grandfather did with his
stories from North Africa, Italy, the Middle East and India. He clearly
found that while officers were more than often not of samurai stock, but
considered themselves the successors of that class, perhaps in a similar
manner to which many yakuza consider themselves modern samurai.
> >So why did they carry swords? Why do officers in many officers around the
world carry swords? If you view the photographs of the carnage on the
Western Front during WW1 you will still see officers leading their troops
sword in hand. Why? Distinction. Still, the officer has to be seen as
superior to his/her men/women (not to be accused of sexism) and the sword is
an obvious symbol universally of such a principle. A man with a sword has
always ranked higher than one with a spear or musket.
> >M.Lorimer
> >
> >Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:
> >
> >On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:54 AM, Josh Wilson wrote:
> >
> >> Tony, not to dispute you, but why was your response about the officers
> >> considering themselves samurai incorrect?? In WWI, the cavalry still
> >> consisted of horses, but by WWII, the cavalry was tanks and such.. if
> >> yor in a tank w/ a biiiiiiiiig cannon on the front, whats the point of
> >> a sword?? hence why the sword became a dress item, it no longer had a
> >> functional purpose.. However I have seen many pictures in textbooks
> >> and on the history channel and such showing the Japanese at prison
> >> camps using the swords to behead POWs.. I also heard on the history
> >> channel that they did consider themselves samurai, even tho they knew
> >> they werent.. So I jsut wondered what else you had to say about the
> >> subject and where you got your info.. I am, unfortunately, notorious
> >> for not having specific referrences, sorry I cant supply any..
> >>
> >> Wilson
> >
> >I am taking a graduate seminar on Modern Japanese history, and I am
> >sure the above will be a big issue for discussion. I'll keep you posted
> >- so far we're in the 1890s...
> >cepo
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> >Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> >---
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
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> >
> > To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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--- Cesare Polenghi <cepo@...> wrote:

> Well, there is the (in)famous story of the two
> Japanese generals Mukai
> and Noda in Nanking, who competed to see how many
> Chinese heads could
> chop in a day (for fun...). Nonetheless, there is NO
> sufficient
> documentation to prove the story was true (Iris
> Chang says is true, but
> it is very debatable). One of the arguments to
> disimiss the story as a
> lie says that it would need quite a few katana to
> chop several heads.
> The count was supposedly 106 to 105 for Mukai.
> Anyway, I hope I did not open a can of worms.
> Horrible things happened
> in Nanking, we all know that.
> cepo

Carrying/using swords and "being samurai" are 2
completely different things, as I'm sure you know.
This debate keeps getting more and more ridiculous.

Nate

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Be crushed like the rest, than. Have no fear, I'm no
Yoshimoto...

As for this Shogun thing, we can't have two--Tony, you
can have the Bakufu, and I'll take the title of Kanto
Kubo? Deal??

Nate

--- Dave Jackson <nihontonut@...> wrote:

> I WILL NEVER BOW DOWN!!!!! come and get me, my army
> awaits. Oh by the way, on the way here there is a
> lovely little spot to stop and have some tea called
> Dengakuhazama you really should stop and check it
> out, I here its lovely there this time of year.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cesare Polenghi
> To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Pop quiz time
>
>
>
> On Feb 4, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Nate Ledbetter wrote:
>
> > BOW DOWN BEFORE THE SHOGUN!!!!
> Nate-Kubo-sama!!!!
>
> I am knocking my head on the tatami
> general cepo (soon to be daimyo)
>
>
>
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--- Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
wrote:

> Okay, but why a Katana instead of a calvery sword
> like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried
> Katanas.
>

Turn the question around: Why do we in the US military
carry cavalry sabers as our ceremonial weapons (and
why did they carry them back in the day when they
actually used them?) Because that's what we
used--that's what fit with our Army. Why should the
Japanese Army change what had worked for their culture
for 1000 years?

Nate

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Because the general deafening consensus is that not only are there no samurai and that it's an absurd thought to even ponder but that no one, even Japanese with samurai ancestorage would consider themselves samurai. All ties to the the class of samurai had been legally severed. Why take a chance of validating a soldier's claim to that status by bringing back the "soul of the samurai"? In essence the Japanese government was reinstating the rank of samurai without the class or privileges by letting them carry swords again. A person might humbly say that they are not samurai but in their heart of hearts they feel they are and that no matter what the government says they still remain samurai.
Now on the darker side:
There was a military uprising in the 1970's by a general who wanted to go back to the days of Imperial japan and reinstate the class of samurai by force. But only a handful of soldiers joined him. Everyone else shouted him down as a crazy man. He committed Sepeku as a result of his failure.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
wrote:

> Okay, but why a Katana instead of a Calvary sword
> like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried
> Katanas.
>

Turn the question around: Why do we in the US military
carry cavalry sabers as our ceremonial weapons (and
why did they carry them back in the day when they
actually used them?) Because that's what we
used--that's what fit with our Army. Why should the
Japanese Army change what had worked for their culture
for 1000 years?

Nate

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Hi,

Tjhough I really love his fiction (albeit in translation beacuse his use of
now-obscure kanji in his prose gives me a headache), the "general" of whom
you speak was Mishima Yukio. He had formed a private "army" (I forget the
size, but it was small and not officially part of the Civil Defense Forces)
called the Tate no kai or "Shield Society." It is hard to call what he did
on that day in 1970 a true uprising becuase he had, like, only 10 guys
(from his Shield Society) and it can be argued that he took a hostage
merely to be allowed to speak. Mishima could be described as a bit of a
hedonist and loved to be the center of attention from all accounts.
Incidentally, his seppuku, which was botched all to hell and a second
kaishaku had to finish the job of taking his head, seems to have been the
plan all along. He made sure that morning that his affairs were in order
and sent off to the the publisher the last manuscript of his Tetralogy.

In any event, I don't think that this can be considered a true military
uprising since he was not part of the military, had no weapons of note and
clearly did not expect to take the day as he had prepared for his death.
Also, if you read his short book _Sun and Steel_ he outlines in it his
beliefs about unifying life and art and about the merits of dying while
still young and beautiful.

For what it's worth.

-Shannon


From: Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
Now on the darker side:
There was a military uprising in the 1970's by a general who wanted to go
back to the days of Imperial japan and reinstate the class of samurai by
force. But only a handful of soldiers joined him. Everyone else shouted him
down as a crazy man. He committed Sepeku as a result of his failure.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
wrote:

> Okay, but why a Katana instead of a Calvary sword
> like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried
> Katanas.
>

Turn the question around: Why do we in the US military
carry cavalry sabers as our ceremonial weapons (and
why did they carry them back in the day when they
actually used them?) Because that's what we
used--that's what fit with our Army. Why should the
Japanese Army change what had worked for their culture
for 1000 years?

Nate

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Chris Ketterling wrote:

> There was a military uprising
> in the 1970's by a general who wanted to go back to the days of Imperial
> japan and reinstate the class of samurai by force. But only a handful of
> soldiers joined him. Everyone else shouted him down as a crazy man. He
> committed Sepeku as a result of his failure.

That was hardly an uprising, and it wasn't a general. It was novelist Mishima
Yukio, card carrying whacko, who harrangued the army at Japan's military HQ. No
one joined him -- they all laughed. The only people *with* him were loonies who
were in his private "militia."

Tony

--- Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
wrote:

> Now on the darker side:
> There was a military uprising in the 1970's by a
> general who wanted to go back to the days of
> Imperial japan and reinstate the class of samurai by
> force. But only a handful of soldiers joined him.
> Everyone else shouted him down as a crazy man. He
> committed Sepeku as a result of his failure.

No, there wasn't. There was a WRITER (not a general),
Mishima Yukio, who was disenchanted with what post-war
Japan had become, and attempted to get the Japanese
"West Point" cadets to join him in an abortive coup
attempt. When NO ONE followed him, he committed
suicide at the Defense Academy in Ichigaya. I've stood
on the spot where he committed seppuku. Everyone
thought he was a madman because he WAS a madman. Have
you read any of his books? Whacko.

Nate

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--- "Parker S. Lyle" <rntihg@...> wrote:

> In any event, I don't think that this can be
> considered a true military
> uprising since he was not part of the military, had
> no weapons of note and
> clearly did not expect to take the day as he had
> prepared for his death.
> Also, if you read his short book _Sun and Steel_ he
> outlines in it his
> beliefs about unifying life and art and about the
> merits of dying while
> still young and beautiful.
>
> For what it's worth.
>
> -Shannon

Exactly. He was a whacko writer (how can you read his
books? The only one I could finish was Kinkakuji, and
that was for a class) who acted more in a moral and
artistic protest than an attempt to really overthrow
the government or anything. That's very interesting
about the seppuku...how it was botched and so forth.
The movie about his live is very interesting, and he
was actually acting in a play at one point where his
character committed seppuku--I wonder how much he came
to associate with that character. He was clearly
mental, to say the least.

Nate


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--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
No

> one joined him -- they all laughed. The only people
> *with* him were loonies who
> were in his private "militia."
>
> Tony

How laughable is this concept, even? Return to
militarism and martial values? Come on...the Japanese
find it hard enough to deploy an engineer battalion to
Iraq to build roads...I've gotten junkmail from the
Communist Party with their platform on why they
shouldn't send troops. If only I knew how to mark
"return to sender" with a big message that I'm US
military...

Nate

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I thought 'Patriotism' was fairly good (although the tone was
propagandist), and Kinkakuji wasn't that bad, either. Haven't
bothered to read anything else by Mishima, though. He should have had
at least one of his books take place during the Sengoku, so at the
very least this post would be more applicable to the list ;)

> Exactly. He was a whacko writer (how can you read his
> books? The only one I could finish was Kinkakuji, and
> that was for a class) who acted more in a moral and
> artistic protest than an attempt to really overthrow
> the government or anything. That's very interesting
> about the seppuku...how it was botched and so forth.
> The movie about his live is very interesting, and he
> was actually acting in a play at one point where his
> character committed seppuku--I wonder how much he came
> to associate with that character. He was clearly
> mental, to say the least.
>
> Nate
>
>
> __________________________________
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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> How laughable is this concept, even? Return to
> militarism and martial values? Come on...the Japanese
> find it hard enough to deploy an engineer battalion to
> Iraq to build roads...I've gotten junkmail from the
> Communist Party with their platform on why they
> shouldn't send troops. If only I knew how to mark
> "return to sender" with a big message that I'm US
> military...

Plus I've yet to come up with a concise and good enough Japanese term for the
succinct "FOAD" message.

Tony

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

>> He should have had
> at least one of his books take place during the
> Sengoku, so at the
> very least this post would be more applicable to the
> list ;)

Darn Skippy.

Nate

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I can read his books because he was (and arguably still is) a very
influential Japanese fiction writer. In order to get an idea of what was
going on in the literary circles of the later 20th century one really cant
get away without reading some Mishima (and Kawabata and Oe the Murakamis,
etc.) On another side, it was an interesting side course for my study as I
am interested in the ways that the samurai/bushido/martial tradition in
Japan has been co-opted by people for their specific ends. As such,
Mishima is very important. He wrote a comment on Hagakure, he started to
lift weights and study Kendo in his 30s (as a way to exemplify bunbu
ryodou), and wrote a book called wakaki samurai no tame ni. Insane or not,
there is much to mine their for material for research and such. Besides
many great writers were "whacko." Flaubert and Akutagawa come to mind.

As for the play, it was called _Patriotism_ and a film was made of it that
had such a graphic and realistic (as far as one would guess) depiction of
seppuku that Mishima's widow had all extant copies of it (that she could
get her hands on) destroyed. My former University has one of the few
surviving copies.

-Shannon


From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>

Exactly. He was a whacko writer (how can you read his
books? The only one I could finish was Kinkakuji, and
that was for a class) who acted more in a moral and
artistic protest than an attempt to really overthrow
the government or anything. That's very interesting
about the seppuku...how it was botched and so forth.
The movie about his live is very interesting, and he
was actually acting in a play at one point where his
character committed seppuku--I wonder how much he came
to associate with that character. He was clearly
mental, to say the least.

Nate


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Hi again,

I feel like I am always on the "other side." I guess, though, that one of
the reasons for this forum is to spur debate. So here goes.

While the concept of Japanese re-militarization may be "laughable" today --
though I disagree -- the case today is not the same as it was in 1970. The
30+ intervening years have done much to shape the thoughts of the Japanese
(nation and people) as well as the opinions of those looking in from
without.

I contend that the problem sending troops is a political one. Koizumi,
like most politicians, doesn't want to do anything unpopular with the
people and so that is why it took them so long to get off their hands.
That this is not the only outlook in Japan is evidenced by the popularity
of Mayor Ishihara. He has been advocating getting rid of the
non-aggression clause in the constituition (article 9 is it?) for some
time, and yet remains wildly popular. Anyway we should note that Mishima
was not really looking for militarism, but a return to Japan's past, what
he felt made Japan uniquely Japanese. And that, more than militarism, was
a return to reverence for the emperor and that (military) service should be
in those terms, rather than in more secular ones.

-Shannon
"I got spurs that jingle jangle jingle..."


From: Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...>

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
No

> one joined him -- they all laughed. The only people
> *with* him were loonies who
> were in his private "militia."
>
> Tony

How laughable is this concept, even? Return to
militarism and martial values? Come on...the Japanese
find it hard enough to deploy an engineer battalion to
Iraq to build roads...I've gotten junkmail from the
Communist Party with their platform on why they
shouldn't send troops. If only I knew how to mark
"return to sender" with a big message that I'm US
military...

Nate

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Hi

the best part is he so much wanted the samurai state
to return that when he commited seppuku his Kaishaku
could even use a sword good enough to remove his
head.\

I believe he cut at the neck several times and failed
to kill Mishima. In the end someone else had to finsh
the job off.

Note to self: If I ever commit seppuku I will get
someone who actually knows how to use a sword LOL

Paul


--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

he was actually acting in a play at one point where
his
character committed seppuku--I wonder how much he came
to associate with that character. He was clearly
mental, to say the least.

Nate



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--- "Parker S. Lyle" <rntihg@...> wrote:
In order to

> get an idea of what was
> going on in the literary circles of the later 20th
> century one really cant
> get away without reading some Mishima (and Kawabata
> and Oe the Murakamis,
> etc.)

True. And I stomached Kinkakuji, because I had to.
Just as I stomached Kenzaburo Oe, who isn't
necessarily whacko, just boring. (I fully grant that
this is simply my own opinion). Murakami Haruki, on
the other hand, stands as the greatest writer of all
time (again, my opinion--not really, he's just my
FAVORITE writer of all time. Allow me a little
hyperbole.) Kawabata is VERY good and fully deserving
of the Nobel he won--I loved Yukiguni and own a copy.

On another side, it was an interesting side

> course for my study as I
> am interested in the ways that the
> samurai/bushido/martial tradition in
> Japan has been co-opted by people for their specific
> ends. As such,
> Mishima is very important.

That I will definitely grant. He's a case study in it.


He wrote a comment on

> Hagakure, he started to
> lift weights and study Kendo in his 30s (as a way to
> exemplify bunbu
> ryodou), and wrote a book called wakaki samurai no
> tame ni.

This is also the same time he became homosexual, is it
not? I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, that he felt
that masculine love was a virtue, like many samurai
did, and Ihara Saikaku (speaking of authors).

Insane or not,

> there is much to mine their for material for
> research and such. Besides
> many great writers were "whacko." Flaubert and
> Akutagawa come to mind.

True. I fully grant that many writers were wacko. He's
one of them.

> As for the play, it was called _Patriotism_ and a
> film was made of it that
> had such a graphic and realistic (as far as one
> would guess) depiction of
> seppuku that Mishima's widow had all extant copies
> of it (that she could
> get her hands on) destroyed. My former University
> has one of the few
> surviving copies.

I think I've seen the scene--that or it was recreated
in his biography I saw, I can't remember which. It's
been too long.

I'm not trying to debate his literary merits--he's
definitely got a place in the pantheon of Japanese, if
not world, literature. Many writers who are "great"
are writers who I wouldn't read if stranded on a
deserted island with their collected works--pick a
Russian writer and give me his name and I'll
immediately fall asleep. That's not a reflection on
their writing per se, it's a reflection on my attitude
towards their writing. As I said, I've got nothing
against Japanese modern fiction--while I think Oe
Kenzaburo and Abe Kobo are boring and I'd rather pluck
my eyelashes out, I simply LOVE Murakami Haruki,
Kawabata Yasunari, Natsume Soseki, etc. My FAVORITE
book of all time is probably either "South of the
Border, West of the Sun" or "Sputnik Sweetheart" by
Murakami or "All She Was Worth", the best mystery I've
ever read, by Miyabe Miyuki. I LOVE that book...

Nate

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--- "Parker S. Lyle" <rntihg@...> wrote:

>
>
> While the concept of Japanese re-militarization may
> be "laughable" today --
> though I disagree -- the case today is not the same
> as it was in 1970. The
> 30+ intervening years have done much to shape the
> thoughts of the Japanese
> (nation and people) as well as the opinions of those
> looking in from
> without.

Having not lived here in the 70's (I was only around
for the second half of the decade anyways) I can't
comment on that, but I will say the Japan is probably
the most adamantly pacifist country I can think of,
socially speaking. Many Japanese are barely aware of
the existence of their own Jietai, or were before the
whole Iraq deployment thing. I find it highly ironic
that the countries in Asia still get upset at visits
to Yasukuni and keep pointing to it as a leftover
vestige of militarism and a sign that Japan might "do
it again." China's CLEARLY the bigger expansionist
threat.

> I contend that the problem sending troops is a
> political one. Koizumi,
> like most politicians, doesn't want to do anything
> unpopular with the
> people and so that is why it took them so long to
> get off their hands.

Of course. And if it goes badly, he's toast. But
internationally speaking it's about time Japan got off
it's duff and did something in the world.

> That this is not the only outlook in Japan is
> evidenced by the popularity
> of Mayor Ishihara. He has been advocating getting
> rid of the
> non-aggression clause in the constituition (article
> 9 is it?) for some
> time, and yet remains wildly popular.

Yep, Article 9. Limiting Japan's "defense" spending
since 1954. Of course, even when they stay under 1%
(the unofficial limit--as far as I know Nakasone in
the 80's was the only one to go over that) of their
budget, it's still a huge defense expenditure compared
to many countries around the world. Japan's military
isn't huge, but it beats the pants technologically off
of just about anyone.

Anyway we

> should note that Mishima
> was not really looking for militarism, but a return
> to Japan's past, what
> he felt made Japan uniquely Japanese. And that,
> more than militarism, was
> a return to reverence for the emperor and that
> (military) service should be
> in those terms, rather than in more secular ones.

Sure, got it. You are definitely more up on Mishima
than me (not my area of interest, really.) The
endstate of this discussion is that we agree that the
first poster's question on this is erroneous--it
wasn't a general, it was Mishima, and it wasn't even
really a coup attempt.

> -Shannon
> "I got spurs that jingle jangle jingle..."

I got spurs, and I even wear them to work sometimes...

If you ain't CAV, you ain't KUSSOO!!!!

Nate

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"Anyway we should note that Mishima was not really looking for militarism, but a returnto Japan's past, what he felt made Japan uniquely Japanese."

is that really such a bad thing?? Im gonna have to mve to Japan in a few years.. at first I was not looking foreward to it, mostly bcos I dont speak the language.. but many ppl have been telling me I'll do just fine that they are very westernized and most ppl, especially the younger ones (in my age backet) speak english.. (on a side note, according to the NY times Wed. Oct 23, 2002.."To Grandparents english word trend isnt naissu") *hooray I actually have a refference* the Japanese are adopting English words into their own language.. History, tradition and a sense of who I am culturaly is really important to me.. so on one hand I was pretty relieved to hear that they are westernizing and that I will get along fine over there, but on the other hand, I feel sorry bcos in a way they are loosing that.. it seems Mishima was in his own....whacko little way, was just trying to point this out to ppl.. does anyone else not see this or see modern Japan as being "sell outs" in a way??

Wilson


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About ''they all luaghed'', I'm a bit hesitant to agree. Him personal
''militia'' was allowed to exercise itself together with the JSDF. About
100 men totally dressed and maintained by that so strange ''Dandy'' that
lived and dressed in western fashion but killed himself as a Samurai. I
think to Kawabata that lived and dressed in ''traditional'' way but
killed himself in a western way, (with kitchen gas, if I remember well).
Life is strange...

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
Inviato: martedì 10 febbraio 2004 5.30
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Trying to learn

Chris Ketterling wrote:

> There was a military uprising
> in the 1970's by a general who wanted to go back to the days of

Imperial

> japan and reinstate the class of samurai by force. But only a handful

of

> soldiers joined him. Everyone else shouted him down as a crazy man. He
> committed Sepeku as a result of his failure.

That was hardly an uprising, and it wasn't a general. It was novelist
Mishima
Yukio, card carrying whacko, who harrangued the army at Japan's military
HQ. No
one joined him -- they all laughed. The only people *with* him were
loonies who
were in his private "militia."

Tony




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He was anachronistic rather then mad. And still remains a (nearly) Nobel
Prize writer. I find no madness into their works.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Nate Ledbetter [mailto:ltdomer98@...]
Inviato: martedì 10 febbraio 2004 5.35
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Trying to learn


Everyone
thought he was a madman because he WAS a madman. Have
you read any of his books? Whacko.

Nate

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Carlo Tacchini wrote:

> About ''they all luaghed'', I'm a bit hesitant to agree.

You know, this is all on film. It was major news at the time. You can see
soldiers laughing and pointing.


Tony

The Japanese have always been "sellouts" in a certain way. That's part of what makes them so uniquely, well, Japanese. What I mean is that one of Japan's strong points has been their ability to take parts of other cultures and adapt them to their own use, usually improving upon them in the process. Whether it's kanji, or buddhism, or airplanes, or electronics... the japanese have a knack for learning from other cultures. Yeah, they might be "losing" something in the process, but that's just part of the inevitable evolution that all cultures undergo. Speaking of which, the loss of the samurai class is part of that process. In a way, getting rid of the samurai was a very Japanese thing to do. LOL. The thing that WASN'T very Japanese-like was their attempt at isolationism practiced before the Meiji restoration.

> "Anyway we should note that Mishima was not really looking for militarism, but a
> returnto Japan's past, what he felt made Japan uniquely Japanese."
>
> is that really such a bad thing?? Im gonna have to mve to Japan in a few years..
> at first I was not looking foreward to it, mostly bcos I dont speak the
> language.. but many ppl have been telling me I'll do just fine that they are
> very westernized and most ppl, especially the younger ones (in my age backet)
> speak english.. (on a side note, according to the NY times Wed. Oct 23,
> 2002.."To Grandparents english word trend isnt naissu") *hooray I actually have
> a refference* the Japanese are adopting English words into their own language..
> History, tradition and a sense of who I am culturaly is really important to me..
> so on one hand I was pretty relieved to hear that they are westernizing and that
> I will get along fine over there, but on the other hand, I feel sorry bcos in a
> way they are loosing that.. it seems Mishima was in his own....whacko little
> way, was just trying to point this out to ppl.. does anyone else not see this or
> see modern Japan as being "sell outs" in a way??
>
> Wilson
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
> http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC
> =lycos10
>
>
>
>
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> ---
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>
>
>
>
>

Yeah. It seems to me to remember that even TV covered the fact, but not
sure if ''live'' or just after the matter...
Anyway, artists sometimes are strange, but this is really too much !!!

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Anthony J. Bryant [mailto:ajbryant@...]
Inviato: martedì 10 febbraio 2004 20.10
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: R: [samuraihistory] Trying to learn

Carlo Tacchini wrote:

> About ''they all luaghed'', I'm a bit hesitant to agree.

You know, this is all on film. It was major news at the time. You can
see
soldiers laughing and pointing.


Tony




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golfmandan@... wrote:

> What I mean is that one of
> Japan's strong points has been their ability to take parts of other cultures
> and adapt them to their own use, usually improving upon them in the process.

Hey, it worked for Rome.



Tony

--- Josh Wilson <lordwilson@...> wrote:
Im gonna have to

> mve to Japan in a few years..

You make it sound like a chore. Most of the board
would do anything for the opportunity. I had to suffer
a second year on the Korean DMZ to get here.

at first I was not

> looking foreward to it, mostly bcos I dont speak the
> language.. but many ppl have been telling me I'll do
> just fine that they are very westernized and most
> ppl, especially the younger ones (in my age backet)
> speak english..

If you don't mind, how old are you? Be careful what
you assume by "speak english"--many are familiar with
the language, can read it (mostly), but SPEAKING it is
something entirely different. Many people can speak
enough to help you find the grocery store or show you
an English menu, but I wouldn't expect in depth
conversations on astro-physics.

the Japanese are adopting English words

> into their own language..

And making them Japanese. One of the hardest things
for me in Japanese is trying to figure out what the
"adopted" english word is when a Japanese says it. I
had to look up a few--"Borantia" (Volunteer) is the
example that comes to mind, but frequently the words
are used out of normal English context or are just
plain unrecognizable.

History, tradition and a

> sense of who I am culturaly is really important to
> me.. so on one hand I was pretty relieved to hear
> that they are westernizing and that I will get along
> fine over there, but on the other hand, I feel sorry
> bcos in a way they are loosing that..

Japan is still Japan, always will be. Are Americans
any less American because they don't wear cowboy hats
and six-shooters? Even Japan's modernization is
uniquely Japanese--I wouldn't call it "Westernizing".
For example, any of us from the West can tell you that
you walk into a Japanese McDonald's and it's a
completely DIFFERENT experience than it is in the US
or Europe.

it seems

> Mishima was in his own....whacko little way, was
> just trying to point this out to ppl.. does anyone
> else not see this or see modern Japan as being "sell
> outs" in a way??

No more than anyone else.

I'd be happy to continue this discussion, but we
shoudl probably take it to the modern history board.
Kitsuno, can you post the link again??

Nate

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--- Carlo Tacchini <TSUBAME1@...> wrote:

> He was anachronistic rather then mad. And still
> remains a (nearly) Nobel
> Prize writer. I find no madness into their works.

Loony. Completely. But that's an opinion, and not
necessarily fact.

I find Mishima's work highly disturbing. He seems
obsessed with madness. Though I suppose no more than
Tanizaki's "Diary of a Mad old Man", which I happened
to like.

Nate

__________________________________
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Mr. Wilson,
Forgive me if I disagree with you on some points...

Sellouts? Adaption is a common way of all biolagical critters...but
selling out involves monetary or other similar compensation -

Kanji - yes, they found that the Chinese had a functional writing
system and adopted it - but remember that they added verb ending usage
to a Chinese system that used none...How was that a sellout? What
country did your particular writing system come from?

Buddhism - remember that they added a tollerance for other religions
that strict Buddhism from India did not espouse...
They had indigionous religious systems and simply added Buddhism to
the pile - they did not replace their religions...(I am also a
Buddhist, but that is a side note...

Airplanes - quite post-period, but if it is pertanent, I ask you off
list to write me and inform me of what Japanese only improvements did
they add to the basic idea of aircraft?
Electronics? Again, post period and beyond this list's discussion
protocal...

>> In a way, getting rid of the samurai was a very Japanese thing to do.

I just do not get this part of your post - Getting rid of Samurai
might be a result of the possible history lines that Japan might have
chosen, as any country with a cast system might have done - but I do
not understand your reference to it being a "very Japanese" thing to
do... Assimilating - yes, I can see that...Purging - that depended
more on circumstance, rather that a national requirement...

Your argument seems to be self contradictory...
Please illuminate for us...
No offence - I am just curious...
Christopher...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> The Japanese have always been "sellouts" in a certain way. That's
part of what makes them so uniquely, well, Japanese. What I mean is
that one of Japan's strong points has been their ability to take parts
of other cultures and adapt them to their own use, usually improving
upon them in the process. Whether it's kanji, or buddhism, or
airplanes, or electronics... the japanese have a knack for learning
from other cultures. Yeah, they might be "losing" something in the
process, but that's just part of the inevitable evolution that all
cultures undergo. Speaking of which, the loss of the samurai class is
part of that process. In a way, getting rid of the samurai was a very
Japanese thing to do. LOL. The thing that WASN'T very Japanese-like
was their attempt at isolationism practiced before the Meiji restoration.
> > "Anyway we should note that Mishima was not really looking for
militarism, but a
> > returnto Japan's past, what he felt made Japan uniquely Japanese."
> >
> > is that really such a bad thing?? Im gonna have to mve to Japan in
a few years..
> > at first I was not looking foreward to it, mostly bcos I dont
speak the
> > language.. but many ppl have been telling me I'll do just fine
that they are
> > very westernized and most ppl, especially the younger ones (in my
age backet)
> > speak english.. (on a side note, according to the NY times Wed.
Oct 23,
> > 2002.."To Grandparents english word trend isnt naissu") *hooray I
actually have
> > a refference* the Japanese are adopting English words into their
own language..
> > History, tradition and a sense of who I am culturaly is really
important to me..
> > so on one hand I was pretty relieved to hear that they are
westernizing and that
> > I will get along fine over there, but on the other hand, I feel
sorry bcos in a
> > way they are loosing that.. it seems Mishima was in his
own....whacko little
> > way, was just trying to point this out to ppl.. does anyone else
not see this or
> > see modern Japan as being "sell outs" in a way??
> >
> > Wilson
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
> >
http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC
> > =lycos10
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

> Josh,

"a few years"? plenty of time to learn Japanese then! My advice is start now while you are young. The longer you leave it the harder it gets. My experience is like Nate's - many Japanese people read and write English well but do not speak at all fluently. And to be able to read Japanese opens up the country and culture to you in a way you cannot imagine.

G

> the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
>
>
>
>

Christopher, Mr. Wilson didn't write what you're responding to. I did. Mr. Hazen. You seem to have blended the original post by Mr. Wilson and my response to his post, in which I was defending the Japanese as not being "sellouts" but as being skilled at adapting their culture to the times, and particularly, in taking from other cultures and improving upon them. Kanji, buddhism, airplanes, electronics, and the get-rid-of-the-samurai-and-modernize-movement are all part of that cultural quality. The japanese did not invent any of those things. They simply learned/took from other cultures and improved upon them. If you want justification for the inclusion of airplanes in that list... the americans invented the airplane, but in WWII it was the Japanese Zero that was king of the skies, not the American P-51 Mustang. As for electronics... again, Americans were at the helm of this... Thomas Edison, for example, and americans invented the computer, too. But what country makes the most/best computers? Japan. Sony and Hitachi and Toshiba generally make the best electronic equipment... TV's and computers and such. Japanese companies. Though America has experienced a resurgence in quality with the Apple Macintosh brand, but it is still struggling with popularity. (I'm typing on a iMac right now). Similarly, who makes the most reliable engines for vehicles? It ain't Ford! Get a Honda or a Toyota, a Lexus or an Acura, if you want reliability. Same with motorcycles. The Japanese have long made the best engines... Hondas, Suzukis, Kawasakis... all way better than the old Harley Davidson (I've owned a Harley, a honda, a suzuki, and now I have a Buell... which the Buell is supposed to be an American response to the Japanese sportbike). Again, Americans invented the motorcycle, but Japan makes the best ones. Shoot, even my american made Buell has a Japanese suspension!

Getting rid of the sword carrying Samurai class and modernizing is simply an example of that cultural adaptation.

Hope I've explained my point well enough. As Nate responded, the Japanese aren't "sellouts" anymore than the rest of us. But if I were to make a generalized statement of opinion, I would say Americans were adventurous innovators, and the Japanese were creative assimilators. Seems like americans invent the stuff, and then the Japanese make it better. (But Macs still rule...)

> Mr. Wilson,
> Forgive me if I disagree with you on some points...
>
> Sellouts? Adaption is a common way of all biolagical critters...but
> selling out involves monetary or other similar compensation -
>
> Kanji - yes, they found that the Chinese had a functional writing
> system and adopted it - but remember that they added verb ending usage
> to a Chinese system that used none...How was that a sellout? What
> country did your particular writing system come from?
>
> Buddhism - remember that they added a tollerance for other religions
> that strict Buddhism from India did not espouse...
> They had indigionous religious systems and simply added Buddhism to
> the pile - they did not replace their religions...(I am also a
> Buddhist, but that is a side note...
>
> Airplanes - quite post-period, but if it is pertanent, I ask you off
> list to write me and inform me of what Japanese only improvements did
> they add to the basic idea of aircraft?
> Electronics? Again, post period and beyond this list's discussion
> protocal...
>
>
> >> In a way, getting rid of the samurai was a very Japanese thing to do.
>
> I just do not get this part of your post - Getting rid of Samurai
> might be a result of the possible history lines that Japan might have
> chosen, as any country with a cast system might have done - but I do
> not understand your reference to it being a "very Japanese" thing to
> do... Assimilating - yes, I can see that...Purging - that depended
> more on circumstance, rather that a national requirement...
>
> Your argument seems to be self contradictory...
> Please illuminate for us...
> No offence - I am just curious...
> Christopher...
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> > The Japanese have always been "sellouts" in a certain way. That's
> part of what makes them so uniquely, well, Japanese. What I mean is
> that one of Japan's strong points has been their ability to take parts
> of other cultures and adapt them to their own use, usually improving
> upon them in the process. Whether it's kanji, or buddhism, or
> airplanes, or electronics... the japanese have a knack for learning
> from other cultures. Yeah, they might be "losing" something in the
> process, but that's just part of the inevitable evolution that all
> cultures undergo. Speaking of which, the loss of the samurai class is
> part of that process. In a way, getting rid of the samurai was a very
> Japanese thing to do. LOL. The thing that WASN'T very Japanese-like
> was their attempt at isolationism practiced before the Meiji restoration.
> > > "Anyway we should note that Mishima was not really looking for
> militarism, but a
> > > returnto Japan's past, what he felt made Japan uniquely Japanese."
> > >
> > > is that really such a bad thing?? Im gonna have to mve to Japan in
> a few years..
> > > at first I was not looking foreward to it, mostly bcos I dont
> speak the
> > > language.. but many ppl have been telling me I'll do just fine
> that they are
> > > very westernized and most ppl, especially the younger ones (in my
> age backet)
> > > speak english.. (on a side note, according to the NY times Wed.
> Oct 23,
> > > 2002.."To Grandparents english word trend isnt naissu") *hooray I
> actually have
> > > a refference* the Japanese are adopting English words into their
> own language..
> > > History, tradition and a sense of who I am culturaly is really
> important to me..
> > > so on one hand I was pretty relieved to hear that they are
> westernizing and that
> > > I will get along fine over there, but on the other hand, I feel
> sorry bcos in a
> > > way they are loosing that.. it seems Mishima was in his
> own....whacko little
> > > way, was just trying to point this out to ppl.. does anyone else
> not see this or
> > > see modern Japan as being "sell outs" in a way??
> > >
> > > Wilson
> > >
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages
> > >
> http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC
> > > =lycos10
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > > ---
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

I think that the samurai should still exist as a living link to the past, the same way that the knighthood still exists, no I am not claiming to be a knight but Sir Mick Jagger and Sir Paul Mccartney could make that claim. What if samurai existed simply as a non hereditary title without the sword wearing rights and stipends, as a way for Japan to bestow upon its citizens, recognition for personal acomplishments or service to the nation?

Dave Jackson

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Ketterling
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Trying to learn


Because the general deafening consensus is that not only are there no samurai and that it's an absurd thought to even ponder but that no one, even Japanese with samurai ancestorage would consider themselves samurai. All ties to the the class of samurai had been legally severed. Why take a chance of validating a soldier's claim to that status by bringing back the "soul of the samurai"? In essence the Japanese government was reinstating the rank of samurai without the class or privileges by letting them carry swords again. A person might humbly say that they are not samurai but in their heart of hearts they feel they are and that no matter what the government says they still remain samurai.
Now on the darker side:
There was a military uprising in the 1970's by a general who wanted to go back to the days of Imperial japan and reinstate the class of samurai by force. But only a handful of soldiers joined him. Everyone else shouted him down as a crazy man. He committed Sepeku as a result of his failure.

Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

--- Chris Ketterling <chrisketterling1@...>
wrote:
> Okay, but why a Katana instead of a Calvary sword
> like other (US) militaries. Even pilots carried
> Katanas.
>

Turn the question around: Why do we in the US military
carry cavalry sabers as our ceremonial weapons (and
why did they carry them back in the day when they
actually used them?) Because that's what we
used--that's what fit with our Army. Why should the
Japanese Army change what had worked for their culture
for 1000 years?

Nate

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Haruki Murakami must have at least a screw loose to be able to
write "hard boiled wonderland" (which I thought was great, although I
thought the translator did a less than stellar job). He's sort of
like a Japanese Douglas Adams.

> Loony. Completely. But that's an opinion, and not
> necessarily fact.
>
> I find Mishima's work highly disturbing. He seems
> obsessed with madness. Though I suppose no more than
> Tanizaki's "Diary of a Mad old Man", which I happened
> to like.
>
> Nate
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> Haruki Murakami must have at least a screw loose to
> be able to
> write "hard boiled wonderland" (which I thought was
> great, although I
> thought the translator did a less than stellar job).
> He's sort of
> like a Japanese Douglas Adams.

Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World WAS
bizarre, for sure. Not one of my favorites. Though A
Wild Sheep's Chase and Dance Dance Dance are
definitely screwy, and I love them. My favorites
though, as I said, are East of the Border, West of the
Sun and Sputnik Sweetheart--no screwy sheepmen, no mad
professors underground...just good books.

Nate

__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
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Dave Jackson wrote:

> I think that the samurai should still exist as a living link to the past, the
> same way that the knighthood still exists, no I am not claiming to be a
> knight but Sir Mick Jagger and Sir Paul Mccartney could make that claim.

And I think I should be a multi millionaire. And that I should be married to
Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in Kyoto.

None of these "shoulds," however, are real situations -- they have that in
common with your "should."

You are comparing apples and oranges. Knighthood exists because it has
*continued* to exist. Samurai do not exist because they were legislated out of
existence.


Tony

Kitsuno wrote:

> Haruki Murakami must have at least a screw loose to be able to
> write "hard boiled wonderland" (which I thought was great, although I
> thought the translator did a less than stellar job). He's sort of
> like a Japanese Douglas Adams.

Ever read "Panya-san no shûgeki"? Hell of a story. (Works a lot better in
Japanese, but the man's an artist with language.


Tony

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

>
> And I think I should be a multi millionaire. And
> that I should be married to
> Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in
> Kyoto.

*pout* but I want her...

okay, I'll take Inoue Waka and Matsugane Yoko instead.

Nate

__________________________________
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Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> --- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:
>
>>And I think I should be a multi millionaire. And
>>that I should be married to
>>Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in
>>Kyoto.
>
>
> *pout* but I want her...

Tough. I saw her first. In 1985. Nyah.

> okay, I'll take Inoue Waka and Matsugane Yoko instead.

Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is Sawaguchi Yasuko. You get a
third person to make it fair for you.

Tony

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

>
> Hard-boiled Wonderland and the End of the World WAS
> bizarre, for sure. Not one of my favorites. Though A
> Wild Sheep's Chase and Dance Dance Dance are
> definitely screwy, and I love them. My favorites
> though, as I said, are East of the Border, West of the
> Sun and Sputnik Sweetheart--no screwy sheepmen, no mad
> professors underground...just good books.

Some time ago when in Japan, I grabbed "Dance, Dance, Dance" at the bookstore.

Imagine my frustration upon returning to the States to realize I'd only bought
the "jô-kan." Grr.

Tony

< to
Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in Kyoto.>>

Well one out of three aint bad. Well its not a huge mansion, only a 4LDK
halfway between Osaka and Kyoto and ya can't beat that. As for Sawaguchi
Yasuko my wife is more beautiful than her (I have to say that I want to live
to see another day)

How was that Jidai Geki list?

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:

> Christopher, Mr. Wilson didn't write what you're responding to. I

did. Mr. Hazen.

My appologies to Mr. Wilson...:-)

>You seem to have blended the original post by Mr. Wilson and my
>response to his post, in which I was defending the Japanese as not
>being "sellouts" but as being skilled at adapting their culture to
>the times, and particularly, in taking from other cultures and
>improving upon them.

It can happen now and then, again, gomen.


(But Macs still rule...)

Why, yes they do! I own a host of them... :-)

Gomen,
Christopher...

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <
ajbryant@i...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:

I think Matsugane Yoko counts as 3 women. For 2 very obvious
reasons.

Brandon

>
> > --- "Anthony J. Bryant" wrote:
> >
> >>And I think I should be a multi millionaire. And
> >>that I should be married to
> >>Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in
> >>Kyoto.
> >
> >
> > *pout* but I want her...
>
> Tough. I saw her first. In 1985. Nyah.
>
> > okay, I'll take Inoue Waka and Matsugane Yoko instead.
>
> Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is Sawaguchi

Yasuko. You get a

> third person to make it fair for you.
>
> Tony

Think nothing of it, I took no offense.. :-) The school I go to here in the states was once in a partnership w/ Teikyo college.. so there are many Japanese here still from those days.. I often here them say how much they wish they could be American... and not jsut in the citizenship-sense.. which played a bit of a role in the original post.. but I made the original post after many ppl seemed to state that they thought that Mishima was "whacko".. I just was merely trying to point out that there are two sides to every coin and hopefully start a discussion based on that thought... even tho it is a bit off topic(plz excuse me).. I hope I did not offend anyone.. Thanx for the replies..

Wilson..

P.S.
as for moving to Japan, my fiance is a missionary and has her heart set on Japan.. Ive studied 4 other languages already.. I need them to get thru school b4 I can confuse myself w/ a 5th.. :-)

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> Christopher, Mr. Wilson didn't write what you're responding to. I
did. Mr. Hazen.

My appologies to Mr. Wilson...:-)

>You seem to have blended the original post by Mr. Wilson and my
>response to his post, in which I was defending the Japanese as not
>being "sellouts" but as being skilled at adapting their culture to
>the times, and particularly, in taking from other cultures and
>improving upon them.

It can happen now and then, again, gomen.


(But Macs still rule...)

Why, yes they do! I own a host of them... :-)

Gomen,
Christopher...








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--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

>
> Tough. I saw her first. In 1985. Nyah.
>

FINE...

> > okay, I'll take Inoue Waka and Matsugane Yoko
> instead.
>
> Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is
> Sawaguchi Yasuko. You get a
> third person to make it fair for you.
>
> Tony

Okay, I'd take Koike Eiko, but I think William has
dibs. So I'll "settle" for Utada Hikaru.

Nate

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--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Some time ago when in Japan, I grabbed "Dance,
> Dance, Dance" at the bookstore.
>
> Imagine my frustration upon returning to the States
> to realize I'd only bought
> the "j�-kan." Grr.
>
> Tony

SAITEI!!!

Nate

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--- William&Mikiko Letham <mickey.letham@...>
wrote:

> Well one out of three aint bad. Well its not a huge
> mansion, only a 4LDK
> halfway between Osaka and Kyoto and ya can't beat
> that. As for Sawaguchi
> Yasuko my wife is more beautiful than her (I have to
> say that I want to live
> to see another day)

What IS "LDK"? I see it places, and I haven't figured
it out yet.

Nate


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--- midorinotoradesu <bkirkham@...> wrote:

> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J.
> Bryant" <
> ajbryant@i...> wrote:
> > Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> I think Matsugane Yoko counts as 3 women. For 2
> very obvious
> reasons.
>
> Brandon

Touche...

Nate

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I agree with tony -- I'd take Inoue Waka too!  8-D!

Tim


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

< it out yet.

Nate>>

LDK stands for Living Dining and Kitchen; the main room of most
houses/apartments that combine these three rooms.

By the way did you get my Email about Shinsengumi? Basically I want to know
how many more episodes you need taped and where I can send it.

>>>>And
>>>>that I should be married to
>>>>Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in
>>>>Kyoto.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>*pout* but I want her...
>>>
>>>
>>Tough. I saw her first. In 1985. Nyah.
>>
>>
>>
>>>okay, I'll take Inoue Waka and Matsugane Yoko instead.
>>>
>>>
>>Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is Sawaguchi Yasuko. You get a third person to make it fair for you.
>>
>>
>>

Maybe it's just a math thing, you know 2 20 year olds for a 39 year old
;) Though I think I'd prefer Sawaguchi Yasuko myself, maybe because I've
seen her in kimono.

>>Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is
>>Sawaguchi Yasuko. You get a
>>third person to make it fair for you.
>>
>>
>Okay, I'd take Koike Eiko, but I think William has
>dibs. So I'll "settle" for Utada Hikaru.
>
>

I think we need several bottles of sake a full moon and some blossoming
cherry trees to really solve this problem. Then we can all attempt to
write bad haiku and tanka between drinking bouts. How very Edo!

Jim

LDK is a measurement the Japanese use to determine the type of home.
The L=Living Space, D=Dining Area, K=Kitchen. The number before it
is the actual number of rooms. If the rooms are a standard 6 Tatami
size then a 4 LDK mansion is a good sized apartment. Not huge by
western standards but very large by Japanese standards. Am I right
William?

Brandon

P.S. I saw Inoue Waka on TV the other day. I don't think that she's
much more than eye candy. Or maybe she was having a bad day.



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter <
ltdomer98@y...> wrote:

>
> --- William&Mikiko Letham
> wrote:
>
> > Well one out of three aint bad. Well its not a huge
> > mansion, only a 4LDK
> > halfway between Osaka and Kyoto and ya can't beat
> > that. As for Sawaguchi
> > Yasuko my wife is more beautiful than her (I have to
> > say that I want to live
> > to see another day)
>
> What IS "LDK"? I see it places, and I haven't figured
> it out yet.
>
> Nate
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

--- James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:

>
> I think we need several bottles of sake a full moon
> and some blossoming
> cherry trees to really solve this problem. Then we
> can all attempt to
> write bad haiku and tanka between drinking bouts.
> How very Edo!
>
> Jim

Think we could get the girls mentioned above to serve
the drinks? MMMm....warm sake from Inoue Waka...*happy
thoughts*

Nate


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--- midorinotoradesu <bkirkham@...> wrote:

> LDK is a measurement the Japanese use to determine
> the type of home.
> The L=Living Space, D=Dining Area, K=Kitchen. The
> number before it
> is the actual number of rooms. If the rooms are a
> standard 6 Tatami
> size then a 4 LDK mansion is a good sized apartment.
> Not huge by
> western standards but very large by Japanese
> standards. Am I right
> William?
>

Okay, got it. I've seen it in apartment adds, but
nothing to explain it. Thanks.

> Brandon
>
> P.S. I saw Inoue Waka on TV the other day. I don't
> think that she's
> much more than eye candy. Or maybe she was having a
> bad day.

Nothing is wrong with just eye-candy. She's not the
brightest girl, but then again on most of her TV
appearances Iijima Ai doesn't come across as smart
either, and she really is. I think Inoue Waka is just
as cute as can be--she's no Sawaguchi Yasuko, but then
again, no one else is.

Nate



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Sawaguchi Yasuko and Matsugane Yoko? In your dreams.

That's my bad haiku.

No sake required for that one.

>
> >>>>And
> >>>>that I should be married to
> >>>>Sawaguchi Yasuko. And live in a huge mansion in
> >>>>Kyoto.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>*pout* but I want her...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Tough. I saw her first. In 1985. Nyah.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>okay, I'll take Inoue Waka and Matsugane Yoko instead.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is Sawaguchi Yasuko. You get a
> third person to make it fair for you.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> Maybe it's just a math thing, you know 2 20 year olds for a 39 year old
> ;) Though I think I'd prefer Sawaguchi Yasuko myself, maybe because I've
> seen her in kimono.
>
> >>Hey, two for one? Wait a minute! Oh, wait, this is
> >>Sawaguchi Yasuko. You get a
> >>third person to make it fair for you.
> >>
> >>
> >Okay, I'd take Koike Eiko, but I think William has
> >dibs. So I'll "settle" for Utada Hikaru.
> >
> >
> I think we need several bottles of sake a full moon and some blossoming
> cherry trees to really solve this problem. Then we can all attempt to
> write bad haiku and tanka between drinking bouts. How very Edo!
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

--- golfmandan@... wrote:

> Sawaguchi Yasuko and Matsugane Yoko? In your dreams.
>
> That's my bad haiku.
>
> No sake required for that one.

Life's no fun without dreams...

Nate

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From: golfmandan@...

>Subject: Re: Re: Trying to learn
>
>
>

Sawaguchi Ya-

suko and Matsugane

Yoko? In your dreams.

>That's my bad haiku.
>
>

Not bad! Being a sloppy type, I'll count dreams as one syllable.

Jim

OK, but whats the size of a 'standard Tatami' please?
Michael

> --- midorinotoradesu <bkirkham@...> wrote:
> > LDK is a measurement the Japanese use to determine
> > the type of home.
> > The L=Living Space, D=Dining Area, K=Kitchen. The
> > number before it
> > is the actual number of rooms. If the rooms are a
> > standard 6 Tatami
> > size then a 4 LDK mansion is a good sized apartment.

Hehehe...Good point !! The Osaka and the Tokyo's ones are belived to be
different.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Pamela Grayer [mailto:m.grayer@...]
Inviato: sabato 7 febbraio 2004 20.01
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Trying to learn

OK, but whats the size of a 'standard Tatami' please?
Michael

> --- midorinotoradesu <bkirkham@...> wrote:
> > LDK is a measurement the Japanese use to determine
> > the type of home.
> > The L=Living Space, D=Dining Area, K=Kitchen. The
> > number before it
> > is the actual number of rooms. If the rooms are a
> > standard 6 Tatami
> > size then a 4 LDK mansion is a good sized apartment.

---
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---
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not exactly 1*2 meter some centimeter less than that i will erruiate that point !

Carlo Tacchini <TSUBAME1@...> wrote:Hehehe...Good point !! The Osaka and the Tokyo's ones are belived to be
different.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Pamela Grayer [mailto:m.grayer@...]
Inviato: sabato 7 febbraio 2004 20.01
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Trying to learn

OK, but whats the size of a 'standard Tatami' please?
Michael

> --- midorinotoradesu <bkirkham@...> wrote:
> > LDK is a measurement the Japanese use to determine
> > the type of home.
> > The L=Living Space, D=Dining Area, K=Kitchen. The
> > number before it
> > is the actual number of rooms. If the rooms are a
> > standard 6 Tatami
> > size then a 4 LDK mansion is a good sized apartment.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

roughly 90cm by 180 cm - 3 feet by 6 feet

Brandon
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Pamela Grayer" <
m.grayer@b...> wrote:

> OK, but whats the size of a 'standard Tatami' please?
> Michael
>
> > --- midorinotoradesu wrote:
> > > LDK is a measurement the Japanese use to determine
> > > the type of home.
> > > The L=Living Space, D=Dining Area, K=Kitchen. The
> > > number before it
> > > is the actual number of rooms. If the rooms are a
> > > standard 6 Tatami
> > > size then a 4 LDK mansion is a good sized apartment.