> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:43:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: jacob gerhard <madbearscave@...>
> Subject: Re: Hi!
>
> Hey Carmen,
>
> Here are some prominant Christian Samurai that I know
> of:
> Otomo Sorin
> Kuroda Yoshitaka
> Arima Harunobu
>
> Also check out the Shimabara Rebelion 1637-1638
>
> Also though there may have been Christain Samurai,
> Christianity was viewed as a potential threat(foreign
> powers namely the Portuguese) by Toyotomi Hideyoshi
> and the Tokugawa Shogunate. Their crack down on
> christianity wasn't so much hatred toward christains
> as much as eliminating a disruptive force. The
> samurai(Oda Nobunaga) also cracked down on the Buddist
> Ikko Sect for the same reasons.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jake
> --- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
> > Carmen et al-
> > If christians have lots to learn from Samurai, then
> > I would suggest
> > they could learn it ALL from Christian Samurai. I
> > would examine the
> > history of christianity in Kyushu and the lives of
> > the Christian
> > Daimyo, sounds like a natural subject for your
> > interests...
> > -t
> >
> >
> There is no Christian Samurai.Dude, this is just so wrong I don't know where to start. There *were* Christian
> Those so-called Christian "Samurai" acted in threachery against an expressed
> order of Lord Tokugawa Ieyassu and attempted to terminate with his life in
> order to impose christianism in Japan as it was done at other countries. So,
> they was not betrayed their own lord, but the land, the way of their
> ancestors and the way of the Samurai in itself.
> There is no Christian Samurai.__________________________________
> Those so-called Christian "Samurai" acted in
> threachery against an expressed
> order of Lord Tokugawa Ieyassu and attempted to
> terminate with his life in
> order to impose christianism in Japan as it was done
> at other countries. So,
> they was not betrayed their own lord, but the land,
> the way of their
> ancestors and the way of the Samurai in itself.
>
> Just to be born with samurai ancestry and know how
> to handle a sword does
> not make anyone a Samurai.
>
> Much of the samurai "way-of-thinking" is from
> Buddhism and Shintoism (or
> Shind� that means "The Way of the Gods").
>
> Christians should search in history to real sources
> to seek for their pride
> instead of borrowing elements of other cultures and
> put in them the seal of
> their god. Unfortunatelly there is so much
> people-like-hitler in
> Christianism, just like Hitler himself ("I am now as
> before a Catholic and
> will always remain so" Adolph Hitler, 1941), Charles
> Magne (killed more than
> 4000 saxons for refusal to convert to christianism),
> Olaf the Holy and Olaf
> Tryggvarsson (of Norway, they also did thousands of
> sword-pointed
> convertions and prosecuted their native religions
> there that have several
> common elements with Shinto), Oda Nobunaga Shogun
> (killed many buddhist
> monks, destroyed many buddhists monasteries and
> entire villages and their
> respectives villagers slaughtered just for dwelling
> near those monasteries)
> and very few good and coherent examples like St.
> Francisco of Assis (his
> order in some periods of history was even prosecuted
> due to that).
>
> Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> S�o Paulo - SP
>
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:43:09 -0800 (PST)
> > From: jacob gerhard <madbearscave@...>
> > Subject: Re: Hi!
> >
> > Hey Carmen,
> >
> > Here are some prominant Christian Samurai that I
> know
> > of:
> > Otomo Sorin
> > Kuroda Yoshitaka
> > Arima Harunobu
> >
> > Also check out the Shimabara Rebelion 1637-1638
> >
> > Also though there may have been Christain Samurai,
> > Christianity was viewed as a potential
> threat(foreign
> > powers namely the Portuguese) by Toyotomi
> Hideyoshi
> > and the Tokugawa Shogunate. Their crack down on
> > christianity wasn't so much hatred toward
> christains
> > as much as eliminating a disruptive force. The
> > samurai(Oda Nobunaga) also cracked down on the
> Buddist
> > Ikko Sect for the same reasons.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Jake
> > --- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
> > > Carmen et al-
> > > If christians have lots to learn from Samurai,
> then
> > > I would suggest
> > > they could learn it ALL from Christian Samurai.
> I
> > > would examine the
> > > history of christianity in Kyushu and the lives
> of
> > > the Christian
> > > Daimyo, sounds like a natural subject for your
> > > interests...
> > > -t
> > >
> > >
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson
To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 3:23 PM
Subject: [samuraihistory] Samurai is not christian
There is no Christian Samurai.
.......wrong
Those so-called Christian "Samurai" acted in threachery against an expressed
order of Lord Tokugawa Ieyassu and attempted to terminate with his life in
order to impose christianism in Japan as it was done at other countries. So,
they was not betrayed their own lord, but the land, the way of their
ancestors and the way of the Samurai in itself.
.......wrong again sorry
Just to be born with samurai ancestry and know how to handle a sword does
not make anyone a Samurai.
........yes it does
Much of the samurai "way-of-thinking" is from Buddhism and Shintoism (or
Shindô that means "The Way of the Gods").
..The samurai "way of thinking" is all about honor, bravery and above all
else loyalty it had little to do with religion.
Christians should search in history to real sources to seek for their pride
instead of borrowing elements of other cultures and put in them the seal of
their god.
...Real sources? .....borrowing?
Unfortunatelly there is so much people-like-hitler in
Christianism, just like Hitler himself ("I am now as before a Catholic and
will always remain so" Adolph Hitler, 1941), Charles Magne (killed more than
4000 saxons for refusal to convert to christianism), Olaf the Holy and Olaf
Tryggvarsson (of Norway, they also did thousands of sword-pointed
convertions and prosecuted their native religions there that have several
common elements with Shinto)
.....Many bad things were done in the name of religion in many parts of the
world by many different people representing many different religions it
would be unfair to single out only one.
, Oda Nobunaga Shogun (killed many buddhist
monks, destroyed many buddhists monasteries and entire villages and their
respectives villagers slaughtered just for dwelling near those monasteries)
and very few good and coherent examples like St. Francisco of Assis (his
order in some periods of history was even prosecuted due to that).
.....Yes Nobunaga did these things, but nobunaga was not a Christian, and
he did not kill them because they were buddhists but because they were a
military threat.
Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:43:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: jacob gerhard <madbearscave@...>
> Subject: Re: Hi!
>
> Hey Carmen,
>
> Here are some prominant Christian Samurai that I know
> of:
> Otomo Sorin
> Kuroda Yoshitaka
> Arima Harunobu
>
> Also check out the Shimabara Rebelion 1637-1638
>
> Also though there may have been Christain Samurai,
> Christianity was viewed as a potential threat(foreign
> powers namely the Portuguese) by Toyotomi Hideyoshi
> and the Tokugawa Shogunate. Their crack down on
> christianity wasn't so much hatred toward christains
> as much as eliminating a disruptive force. The
> samurai(Oda Nobunaga) also cracked down on the Buddist
> Ikko Sect for the same reasons.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jake
> --- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
> > Carmen et al-
> > If christians have lots to learn from Samurai, then
> > I would suggest
> > they could learn it ALL from Christian Samurai. I
> > would examine the
> > history of christianity in Kyushu and the lives of
> > the Christian
> > Daimyo, sounds like a natural subject for your
> > interests...
> > -t
> >
> >
---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Message: 1---
> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:43:09 -0800 (PST)
> From: jacob gerhard <madbearscave@...>
> Subject: Re: Hi!
>
> Hey Carmen,
>
> Here are some prominant Christian Samurai that I know
> of:
> Otomo Sorin
> Kuroda Yoshitaka
> Arima Harunobu
>
> Also check out the Shimabara Rebelion 1637-1638
>
> Also though there may have been Christain Samurai,
> Christianity was viewed as a potential threat(foreign
> powers namely the Portuguese) by Toyotomi Hideyoshi
> and the Tokugawa Shogunate. Their crack down on
> christianity wasn't so much hatred toward christains
> as much as eliminating a disruptive force. The
> samurai(Oda Nobunaga) also cracked down on the Buddist
> Ikko Sect for the same reasons.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Jake
> --- Tom Helm <junkmail@...> wrote:
> > Carmen et al-
> > If christians have lots to learn from Samurai, then
> > I would suggest
> > they could learn it ALL from Christian Samurai. I
> > would examine the
> > history of christianity in Kyushu and the lives of
> > the Christian
> > Daimyo, sounds like a natural subject for your
> > interests...
> > -t
> >
> >
>>
> Just to be born with samurai ancestry and know how to handle a swordAs a matter of fact, during the Tokugawa (or Edo) period (1603-1868)
> does
> not make anyone a Samurai.
>>
On Feb 8, 2004, at 7:45 AM, burker1@... wrote:
> I would like to ask the moderator to please step in and put a stop to
> these
> anti-Catholic tirades. They do not belong on a discussion group about
> Samurai
> history. They are also false and demeaning. If they continue I will
> have to
> leave this discussion group.
>
> Bob Burke
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON from theOkay, just a question here: which would have been better: for them to
> beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the pope with
> a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce christianity
> to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD, disguissing
> christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
>
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/8/2004 10:49:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> medhal8@i... writes:
>
> > Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON
from the
> > beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the
pope with
> > a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce
christianity
> > to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD,
disguissing
> > christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
> >
>
> Okay, just a question here: which would have been better:
for them to
> have used deception and get in to attempt the spread of their
message or tell
> the truth, probably get killed and never get a word in about their
message?
> To me, missionary work can take on many disguises, because it's a
matter of
> using whatever means you have to to get your message out and if you
believe it's
> that important, you die for it. As someone said, it's a matter of
WHICH
> (L)ord you're dying for. In their cases, they were dying for a
Lord Not Of This
> World. They adhered absolutely to the tenets of bushido in that
they served
> their highest Lord to the death. Show me one samurai who never
lied or used
> falsehood or murdered or committed some form of treason to protect
his lord --
> human or Otherwise -- and I'll show you a liar. :-)
> As for Nobunaga, what about the threat of the Ikko Ikki? Do
you think
> they wanted to party hearty? Do you think they were going to try
and
> proselytize him and his army? Hardly likely. It is unlikely that
a majority of the
> people who stood in Nobunaga's way, even if they did congeal into a
potent
> fighting force, would have stood a chance against a brilliant
general such as the
> leader of the Oda and his right hand man, Toyotomi, this is true.
But that
> wasn't the issue. The issue was that anyone who stood in Oda's way
of unifying
> Japan -- in WHATEVER WAY THAT WAS -- was seen as a threat. Any
threat -- no
> matter how great or small, or how justified or unjustified -- must
be removed.
> Therefore, the genocide, however indefencible to us, was very
defencible to
> HIM, and quite frankly, that's the only opinion about the issue
that really
> mattered in the end, although it is nice to bat it around and say
"what if" and
> "what was he thinking?" now with four hundred years plus of
hindsight.
> And I must throw my hat into the ring about it too -- I may
not be a
> Catholic (either belief or by church membership), but these anti-
Catholic posts
> have GOT to stop.
> Anyway, that's my two "not-worth-much" cents. 8-) Take
care, y'all.
> 8-)
>
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 2/8/2004 10:49:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> medhal8@i... writes:
>
> > Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON
from the
> > beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the
pope with
> > a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce
christianity
> > to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD,
disguissing
> > christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
> >
>
> Okay, just a question here: which would have been better: for
them to
> have used deception and get in to attempt the spread of their
message or tell
> the truth, probably get killed and never get a word in about their
message?
> To me, missionary work can take on many disguises, because it's a
matter of
> using whatever means you have to to get your message out and if you
believe it's
> that important, you die for it. As someone said, it's a matter of
WHICH
> (L)ord you're dying for. In their cases, they were dying for a Lord
Not Of This
> World. They adhered absolutely to the tenets of bushido in that
they served
> their highest Lord to the death. Show me one samurai who never lied
or used
> falsehood or murdered or committed some form of treason to protect
his lord --
> human or Otherwise -- and I'll show you a liar. :-)
> As for Nobunaga, what about the threat of the Ikko Ikki? Do
you think
> they wanted to party hearty? Do you think they were going to try and
> proselytize him and his army? Hardly likely. It is unlikely that a
majority of the
> people who stood in Nobunaga's way, even if they did congeal into a
potent
> fighting force, would have stood a chance against a brilliant
general such as the
> leader of the Oda and his right hand man, Toyotomi, this is true.
But that
> wasn't the issue. The issue was that anyone who stood in Oda's way
of unifying
> Japan -- in WHATEVER WAY THAT WAS -- was seen as a threat. Any
threat -- no
> matter how great or small, or how justified or unjustified -- must
be removed.
> Therefore, the genocide, however indefencible to us, was very
defencible to
> HIM, and quite frankly, that's the only opinion about the issue that
really
> mattered in the end, although it is nice to bat it around and say
"what if" and
> "what was he thinking?" now with four hundred years plus of hindsight.
> And I must throw my hat into the ring about it too -- I may
not be a
> Catholic (either belief or by church membership), but these
anti-Catholic posts
> have GOT to stop.
> Anyway, that's my two "not-worth-much" cents. 8-) Take
care, y'all.
> 8-)
>
> Tim
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yeah, but what's the need to introduce christianity? Buddism (from
> what I know of it) does a good job of teaching what's good from what's
> bad, and that's what is important, the message, not the belief. At
> least, IMHO.
>
> Miburo
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 2/8/2004 10:49:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > medhal8@i... writes:
> >
> > > Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON
> from the
> > > beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the
> pope with
> > > a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce
> christianity
> > > to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD,
> disguissing
> > > christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
> > >
> >
> > Okay, just a question here: which would have been better: for
> them to
> > have used deception and get in to attempt the spread of their
> message or tell
> > the truth, probably get killed and never get a word in about their
> message?
> > To me, missionary work can take on many disguises, because it's a
> matter of
> > using whatever means you have to to get your message out and if you
> believe it's
> > that important, you die for it. As someone said, it's a matter of
> WHICH
> > (L)ord you're dying for. In their cases, they were dying for a Lord
> Not Of This
> > World. They adhered absolutely to the tenets of bushido in that
> they served
> > their highest Lord to the death. Show me one samurai who never lied
> or used
> > falsehood or murdered or committed some form of treason to protect
> his lord --
> > human or Otherwise -- and I'll show you a liar. :-)
> > As for Nobunaga, what about the threat of the Ikko Ikki? Do
> you think
> > they wanted to party hearty? Do you think they were going to try and
> > proselytize him and his army? Hardly likely. It is unlikely that a
> majority of the
> > people who stood in Nobunaga's way, even if they did congeal into a
> potent
> > fighting force, would have stood a chance against a brilliant
> general such as the
> > leader of the Oda and his right hand man, Toyotomi, this is true.
> But that
> > wasn't the issue. The issue was that anyone who stood in Oda's way
> of unifying
> > Japan -- in WHATEVER WAY THAT WAS -- was seen as a threat. Any
> threat -- no
> > matter how great or small, or how justified or unjustified -- must
> be removed.
> > Therefore, the genocide, however indefencible to us, was very
> defencible to
> > HIM, and quite frankly, that's the only opinion about the issue that
> really
> > mattered in the end, although it is nice to bat it around and say
> "what if" and
> > "what was he thinking?" now with four hundred years plus of hindsight.
> > And I must throw my hat into the ring about it too -- I may
> not be a
> > Catholic (either belief or by church membership), but these
> anti-Catholic posts
> > have GOT to stop.
> > Anyway, that's my two "not-worth-much" cents. 8-) Take
> care, y'all.
> > 8-)
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey.
> It's not necessarily a need, per se, unless you look at it that the
> missionaries were simply doing what their faith/religion commanded them to do
> in spreading their message "to the ends of the earth". From the Japanese
> standpoint, it certainly wasn't necessary. 8-)! Take care!
>
> L8r
> Tim
>
> "The most precious possession that ever comes to a man in this world is a
> woman's heart." -- Josiah G. Holland
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>Religions have historically been used to control and manipulate the masses.
>
>If you look at religious conflict, there is almost always a political reason behind the influx of a new religion.
>
>Please note that this is not an attack on the validity of anyone's religion. Rather, I'm just pointing out that there are always people an organizations who eagerly manipulate people's beliefs for their own profit.
>
>-Thom
>> Hey.
>> It's not necessarily a need, per se, unless you look at it that the
>> missionaries were simply doing what their faith/religion commanded them to do
>> in spreading their message "to the ends of the earth". From the Japanese
>> standpoint, it certainly wasn't necessary. 8-)! Take care!
>>
>> L8r
>> Tim
>>
>> "The most precious possession that ever comes to a man in this world is a
>> woman's heart." -- Josiah G. Holland
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>> ---
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Religions have historically been used to control and manipulate the masses.
>
> If you look at religious conflict, there is almost always a political reason
> behind the influx of a new religion.
>
> Please note that this is not an attack on the validity of anyone's religion.
> Rather, I'm just pointing out that there are always people an organizations who
> eagerly manipulate people's beliefs for their own profit.
>
> -Thom
> > Hey.
> > It's not necessarily a need, per se, unless you look at it that the
> > missionaries were simply doing what their faith/religion commanded them to do
> > in spreading their message "to the ends of the earth". From the Japanese
> > standpoint, it certainly wasn't necessary. 8-)! Take care!
> >
> > L8r
> > Tim
> >
> > "The most precious possession that ever comes to a man in this world is a
> > woman's heart." -- Josiah G. Holland
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> Let me say first off that you've misunderstood Christianity and
Buddhism and most world religions if you think that the point is
simply morality. Sure, most religions have a system of morality, but
the defining of good and bad is NOT the point. In Christianity the
point is peace with God through faith in Christ. In Buddhism the point
is the cessation of individual existence in an illusory world, to
exist only in Nirvana. Christians want to propogate their religion
because they believe people will be judged by God when they die, and
so they think people need forgiveness to enter heaven instead of hell.
Buddhists propogate their religion because they believe people are
blinded by the material world from their need to escape into a
painless and selfless existence in Nirvana. It IS the root principle
that matters. The moral system is a reflection of the root belief.
That's why Buddhist morals and Christian morals are so different. They
DON"T teach the same thing. I'd assume from your post that you're not
a very religious guy. Talk to anybody who takes their religion
seriously and you'll find that the beliefs are most important, not the
least important.
>
> Which, that's why the Jesuit missionaries tried to clothe Christian
truth in the fashion of contemporary Japanese religion. Christian
beliefs with Japanese rituals or practice. It's the underlying belief
that is most important. So, in theory, if you make it look a little
more Japanese, it becomes easier for the Japanese to understand, but
the core beliefs remain intact. This method of propogating Roman
Catholic faith was used by their missionaries a lot. It isn't looked
at as deceitful, but simply as communicating their beliefs in such a
way as to be more easily understood, and to some extent, in a manner
more palatable to the mind of the one being taught. Some of this has
to do with Aristotelian distinctions between the accident and occident
of a thing... The "accident" is the appearance of a thing. The
"occident" is the core essence. The accident doesn't matter nearly as
much as the occident. So, as long as the same core belief is being
taught, then the Catholics didn't care what it looked like. (In actual
practice, though, the old Catholic method tends toward syncretism...
mixing of both belief and ritual... so nothing remains in its pure form).
>
> > Yeah, but what's the need to introduce christianity? Buddism (from
> > what I know of it) does a good job of teaching what's good from what's
> > bad, and that's what is important, the message, not the belief. At
> > least, IMHO.
> >
> > Miburo
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 2/8/2004 10:49:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > medhal8@i... writes:
> > >
> > > > Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON
> > from the
> > > > beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the
> > pope with
> > > > a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce
> > christianity
> > > > to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD,
> > disguissing
> > > > christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Okay, just a question here: which would have been better: for
> > them to
> > > have used deception and get in to attempt the spread of their
> > message or tell
> > > the truth, probably get killed and never get a word in about their
> > message?
> > > To me, missionary work can take on many disguises, because it's a
> > matter of
> > > using whatever means you have to to get your message out and if you
> > believe it's
> > > that important, you die for it. As someone said, it's a matter of
> > WHICH
> > > (L)ord you're dying for. In their cases, they were dying for a Lord
> > Not Of This
> > > World. They adhered absolutely to the tenets of bushido in that
> > they served
> > > their highest Lord to the death. Show me one samurai who never lied
> > or used
> > > falsehood or murdered or committed some form of treason to protect
> > his lord --
> > > human or Otherwise -- and I'll show you a liar. :-)
> > > As for Nobunaga, what about the threat of the Ikko Ikki? Do
> > you think
> > > they wanted to party hearty? Do you think they were going to
try and
> > > proselytize him and his army? Hardly likely. It is unlikely that a
> > majority of the
> > > people who stood in Nobunaga's way, even if they did congeal into a
> > potent
> > > fighting force, would have stood a chance against a brilliant
> > general such as the
> > > leader of the Oda and his right hand man, Toyotomi, this is true.
> > But that
> > > wasn't the issue. The issue was that anyone who stood in Oda's way
> > of unifying
> > > Japan -- in WHATEVER WAY THAT WAS -- was seen as a threat. Any
> > threat -- no
> > > matter how great or small, or how justified or unjustified -- must
> > be removed.
> > > Therefore, the genocide, however indefencible to us, was very
> > defencible to
> > > HIM, and quite frankly, that's the only opinion about the issue that
> > really
> > > mattered in the end, although it is nice to bat it around and say
> > "what if" and
> > > "what was he thinking?" now with four hundred years plus of
hindsight.
> > > And I must throw my hat into the ring about it too -- I may
> > not be a
> > > Catholic (either belief or by church membership), but these
> > anti-Catholic posts
> > > have GOT to stop.
> > > Anyway, that's my two "not-worth-much" cents. 8-) Take
> > care, y'all.
> > > 8-)
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > ---
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Hiya,
>
> I understand the point of religions, but to me their point and the
> point of the beliefs (in the grander scale, what Christ, Buddha, and
> such taught) are different. To me, the inherent meaning of
> Christianity and the other beliefs is the morality (of course,
> morality is such a vague word, it can change depending on the POV of
> the society it comes from). You are right, I'm not a religious person,
> which is not to say I don't believe in God, or even in the grand tale
> of angels, demons, and the rise and fall from grace of mankind, etc.
> What I don't believe in is in religions. I strip down the Message to
> its essence: do good and be rewarded (I'm making it sound simpler than
> it is, but I won't go into too much detail). And one of the main
> reasons, if not the main one, why I do not believe in religions is
> precisely that very fervent (sp?) people do give more weight to the
> individual and unique aspects of their religions than to what really
> matters. Why is it that even amongst same Beliefs the different
> religions don't agree much and make those disagreements into something
> that matters? As if being a good person but NOT believing in God will
> take you to Hell, but one that is evil and constantly repents and
> confesses to the priest, and do all the things the religion requires
> will take you to Heaven, That doesn't make sense to me. So, once
> again, I strip it down to the core. Even the Samurai code has that
> inherent message of goodness embedded on it.
>
> Miburo
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, golfmandan@a... wrote:
> > Let me say first off that you've misunderstood Christianity and
> Buddhism and most world religions if you think that the point is
> simply morality. Sure, most religions have a system of morality, but
> the defining of good and bad is NOT the point. In Christianity the
> point is peace with God through faith in Christ. In Buddhism the point
> is the cessation of individual existence in an illusory world, to
> exist only in Nirvana. Christians want to propogate their religion
> because they believe people will be judged by God when they die, and
> so they think people need forgiveness to enter heaven instead of hell.
> Buddhists propogate their religion because they believe people are
> blinded by the material world from their need to escape into a
> painless and selfless existence in Nirvana. It IS the root principle
> that matters. The moral system is a reflection of the root belief.
> That's why Buddhist morals and Christian morals are so different. They
> DON"T teach the same thing. I'd assume from your post that you're not
> a very religious guy. Talk to anybody who takes their religion
> seriously and you'll find that the beliefs are most important, not the
> least important.
> >
> > Which, that's why the Jesuit missionaries tried to clothe Christian
> truth in the fashion of contemporary Japanese religion. Christian
> beliefs with Japanese rituals or practice. It's the underlying belief
> that is most important. So, in theory, if you make it look a little
> more Japanese, it becomes easier for the Japanese to understand, but
> the core beliefs remain intact. This method of propogating Roman
> Catholic faith was used by their missionaries a lot. It isn't looked
> at as deceitful, but simply as communicating their beliefs in such a
> way as to be more easily understood, and to some extent, in a manner
> more palatable to the mind of the one being taught. Some of this has
> to do with Aristotelian distinctions between the accident and occident
> of a thing... The "accident" is the appearance of a thing. The
> "occident" is the core essence. The accident doesn't matter nearly as
> much as the occident. So, as long as the same core belief is being
> taught, then the Catholics didn't care what it looked like. (In actual
> practice, though, the old Catholic method tends toward syncretism...
> mixing of both belief and ritual... so nothing remains in its pure form).
> >
> > > Yeah, but what's the need to introduce christianity? Buddism (from
> > > what I know of it) does a good job of teaching what's good from what's
> > > bad, and that's what is important, the message, not the belief. At
> > > least, IMHO.
> > >
> > > Miburo
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Eponymous13@a... wrote:
> > > > In a message dated 2/8/2004 10:49:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > > medhal8@i... writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Pe. Francisco Xavier entered in Japan through LIES and THREASON
> > > from the
> > > > > beggining. I've read a copy of the original message of him to the
> > > pope with
> > > > > a translation to portuguese, and he admited that, to introduce
> > > christianity
> > > > > to japan, they would deliberatelly LIE and ACT WITH FALSEHOOD,
> > > disguissing
> > > > > christian religious practices with the buddhist ones...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Okay, just a question here: which would have been better: for
> > > them to
> > > > have used deception and get in to attempt the spread of their
> > > message or tell
> > > > the truth, probably get killed and never get a word in about their
> > > message?
> > > > To me, missionary work can take on many disguises, because it's a
> > > matter of
> > > > using whatever means you have to to get your message out and if you
> > > believe it's
> > > > that important, you die for it. As someone said, it's a matter of
> > > WHICH
> > > > (L)ord you're dying for. In their cases, they were dying for a Lord
> > > Not Of This
> > > > World. They adhered absolutely to the tenets of bushido in that
> > > they served
> > > > their highest Lord to the death. Show me one samurai who never lied
> > > or used
> > > > falsehood or murdered or committed some form of treason to protect
> > > his lord --
> > > > human or Otherwise -- and I'll show you a liar. :-)
> > > > As for Nobunaga, what about the threat of the Ikko Ikki? Do
> > > you think
> > > > they wanted to party hearty? Do you think they were going to
> try and
> > > > proselytize him and his army? Hardly likely. It is unlikely that a
> > > majority of the
> > > > people who stood in Nobunaga's way, even if they did congeal into a
> > > potent
> > > > fighting force, would have stood a chance against a brilliant
> > > general such as the
> > > > leader of the Oda and his right hand man, Toyotomi, this is true.
> > > But that
> > > > wasn't the issue. The issue was that anyone who stood in Oda's way
> > > of unifying
> > > > Japan -- in WHATEVER WAY THAT WAS -- was seen as a threat. Any
> > > threat -- no
> > > > matter how great or small, or how justified or unjustified -- must
> > > be removed.
> > > > Therefore, the genocide, however indefencible to us, was very
> > > defencible to
> > > > HIM, and quite frankly, that's the only opinion about the issue that
> > > really
> > > > mattered in the end, although it is nice to bat it around and say
> > > "what if" and
> > > > "what was he thinking?" now with four hundred years plus of
> hindsight.
> > > > And I must throw my hat into the ring about it too -- I may
> > > not be a
> > > > Catholic (either belief or by church membership), but these
> > > anti-Catholic posts
> > > > have GOT to stop.
> > > > Anyway, that's my two "not-worth-much" cents. 8-) Take
> > > care, y'all.
> > > > 8-)
> > > >
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> > > Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> > > ---
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> ---
> Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
> Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
> ---
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>