Militarty & court ranks.

Hi there,

I'm currently researching The Sengoku period. When searching around
on the web, or reading through books I see mention of court titles
such as Gyobusho (court minister), and ranks such as vassals and
retainers. However, I'm finding it very difficult to actually find a
layout of the ranks in these sorts of hierarchies and what came above
them, below them. Such as: The Daimyo, below him he had vassals (how
did he choose who were to be his vassals?) and what is the difference
between a Vassal and a Retainer? Ideally I'd like to find out what
the ranking system was for both the court and the countries military
was (not just the Daimyos). And, even better, the Imperial Guards.
Also, does anyone know if this hierarchy changed when Yoritomo began
the trend of Shogun leaders rather then Royal heads of state?

This site puts the rank in heirarchy, and the links along the
lefthand side break them down further and give the readings and
explanations:

http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Suzuran/7123/hyou.html

It looks like these are all more or less Kamakura-era ranks (or at
least pre-sengoku) and at one point were actually associated with
concrete positions. By the time the Sengoku came around, I think they
were more or less empty titles.



--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "muds_theaz"
wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I'm currently researching The Sengoku period. When searching around
> on the web, or reading through books I see mention of court titles
> such as Gyobusho (court minister), and ranks such as vassals and
> retainers. However, I'm finding it very difficult to actually find

a

> layout of the ranks in these sorts of hierarchies and what came

above

> them, below them. Such as: The Daimyo, below him he had vassals

(how

> did he choose who were to be his vassals?) and what is the

difference

> between a Vassal and a Retainer? Ideally I'd like to find out what
> the ranking system was for both the court and the countries

military

> was (not just the Daimyos). And, even better, the Imperial Guards.
> Also, does anyone know if this hierarchy changed when Yoritomo

began

> the trend of Shogun leaders rather then Royal heads of state?

Hello--

All vassal and retainer mean are that you serve
someone--they are not "ranks". There is no difference
between the two of them--if I have a lord, I am his
vassal, and also his retainer. A vassal technically
speaking is someone who owes loyalty to someone else;
a retainer is someone who's services are "retained" as
opposed to a merceneray who is hired. Different
origins, same essential result.

The military, per se, didn't have a rank structure
such as you would think of today. For instance, in the
Ashigaru ranks you'd have someone appointed Captain of
Ashigaru, or Ashigaru-kashira, and under him would be
an Ashigaru Kogashira, or "little captain", but it
wasn't necessarily that you went through these ranks,
got promoted or demoted or whatever. They were more
job descriptions than ranks. Above them would be an
Ashigaru-Taisho (Ashigaru General), who'd command a
whole lot of people. Generally speaking, a general is
a Taisho, but just about anyone could be a taisho--if
you commanded 1,000 or 100,000 men, you were a Taisho.
There was no difference necessarily in rank--just in
prestige or power.

For court ranks, which are really what mattered to
most individuals, try

www.sengokydaimyo.com

Tony's got a whole huge explanation on there.

Nate

--- muds_theaz <muds_theaz@...> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I'm currently researching The Sengoku period. When
> searching around
> on the web, or reading through books I see mention
> of court titles
> such as Gyobusho (court minister), and ranks such as
> vassals and
> retainers. However, I'm finding it very difficult to
> actually find a
> layout of the ranks in these sorts of hierarchies
> and what came above
> them, below them. Such as: The Daimyo, below him he
> had vassals (how
> did he choose who were to be his vassals?) and what
> is the difference
> between a Vassal and a Retainer? Ideally I'd like to
> find out what
> the ranking system was for both the court and the
> countries military
> was (not just the Daimyos). And, even better, the
> Imperial Guards.
> Also, does anyone know if this hierarchy changed
> when Yoritomo began
> the trend of Shogun leaders rather then Royal heads
> of state?
>
>
>

__________________________________
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Hmm...interesting that Daijo-Daijin is listed on
there, but Kampaku isn't. Do you know who came up
this? I couldn't find it on the site. Interesting that
the ~no suke and ~ no kami titles seemed to rank below
Taisho and so forth. Maybe I'm just thinking in terms
of landed titles (which by that point they were not)
but it seemed to me that you would have to be a taisho
before you could gain enough prestige before you got a
title like that.

nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> This site puts the rank in heirarchy, and the links
> along the
> lefthand side break them down further and give the
> readings and
> explanations:
>
>

http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Suzuran/7123/hyou.html

>
> It looks like these are all more or less
> Kamakura-era ranks (or at
> least pre-sengoku) and at one point were actually
> associated with
> concrete positions. By the time the Sengoku came
> around, I think they
> were more or less empty titles.
>
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "muds_theaz"
>
> wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I'm currently researching The Sengoku period. When
> searching around
> > on the web, or reading through books I see mention
> of court titles
> > such as Gyobusho (court minister), and ranks such
> as vassals and
> > retainers. However, I'm finding it very difficult
> to actually find
> a
> > layout of the ranks in these sorts of hierarchies
> and what came
> above
> > them, below them. Such as: The Daimyo, below him
> he had vassals
> (how
> > did he choose who were to be his vassals?) and
> what is the
> difference
> > between a Vassal and a Retainer? Ideally I'd like
> to find out what
> > the ranking system was for both the court and the
> countries
> military
> > was (not just the Daimyos). And, even better, the
> Imperial Guards.
> > Also, does anyone know if this hierarchy changed
> when Yoritomo
> began
> > the trend of Shogun leaders rather then Royal
> heads of state?
>
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

Nate Ledbetter wrote:

> Hmm...interesting that Daijo-Daijin is listed on
> there, but Kampaku isn't. Do you know who came up
> this? I couldn't find it on the site. Interesting that
> the ~no suke and ~ no kami titles seemed to rank below
> Taisho and so forth. Maybe I'm just thinking in terms
> of landed titles (which by that point they were not)
> but it seemed to me that you would have to be a taisho
> before you could gain enough prestige before you got a
> title like that.

That's because dajô-daijin was a code position. Kanpaku wasn't. It was created
ad hoc outside the system.

Tony

Ah, ok.

Nate

--- "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:

> Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > Hmm...interesting that Daijo-Daijin is listed on
> > there, but Kampaku isn't. Do you know who came up
> > this? I couldn't find it on the site. Interesting
> that
> > the ~no suke and ~ no kami titles seemed to rank
> below
> > Taisho and so forth. Maybe I'm just thinking in
> terms
> > of landed titles (which by that point they were
> not)
> > but it seemed to me that you would have to be a
> taisho
> > before you could gain enough prestige before you
> got a
> > title like that.
>
> That's because daj�-daijin was a code position.
> Kanpaku wasn't. It was created
> ad hoc outside the system.
>
> Tony
>
>

__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/

< created
ad hoc outside the system.>>

Was Fujiwara Mototsune the first to receive the title kampaku? I know he was
the first Fujiwara to do so.

On Jan 22, 2004, at 3:48 AM, William&Mikiko Letham wrote:

> < > was
> created
> ad hoc outside the system.>>
>
> Was Fujiwara Mototsune the first to receive the title kampaku? I know
> he was
> the first Fujiwara to do so.

I think he was the absolute first. He was 'sessho,' but the title was
then changed in 'kampaku' in 882. He had been 'udaijin' and later
daijo-daijin as well.
Those Fujiwara... ;o)
cepo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this. The site was certainly
interesting. Unfortunately, I can't read Japanese. I tried
translating it with the Altavista software but the program really
couldn't give even a slightly coherent idea of what was being
expressed.
If anyone knows of a decent translation site, it would be excellent.
I couldn't find one. I'm sure there are a lot better Japanese
websites out there on Japanese history than there are English.


--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

> This site puts the rank in heirarchy, and the links along the
> lefthand side break them down further and give the readings and
> explanations:
>
> http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Suzuran/7123/hyou.html
>
> It looks like these are all more or less Kamakura-era ranks (or at
> least pre-sengoku) and at one point were actually associated with
> concrete positions. By the time the Sengoku came around, I think

they

> were more or less empty titles.
>
>
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "muds_theaz"

> wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I'm currently researching The Sengoku period. When searching

around

> > on the web, or reading through books I see mention of court

titles

> > such as Gyobusho (court minister), and ranks such as vassals and
> > retainers. However, I'm finding it very difficult to actually

find

> a
> > layout of the ranks in these sorts of hierarchies and what came
> above
> > them, below them. Such as: The Daimyo, below him he had vassals
> (how
> > did he choose who were to be his vassals?) and what is the
> difference
> > between a Vassal and a Retainer? Ideally I'd like to find out

what

> > the ranking system was for both the court and the countries
> military
> > was (not just the Daimyos). And, even better, the Imperial Guards.
> > Also, does anyone know if this hierarchy changed when Yoritomo
> began
> > the trend of Shogun leaders rather then Royal heads of state?