Rank & Titles

I'm trying to figure out the reading for this title given to various
Samurai during the Sengoku: 治�"少輔
I'm pretty sure it is 'Jibu Shouyuu', but I'd like to be sure. and if
anyone could give me specifics on what it signifies, that would be
great, too.

thanks

It doesn't look like that came out, so take a look here at the .jpg:

http://www.samurai-archives.com/NEW.html

Thanks

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno" listowner@s...> wrote:

> I'm trying to figure out the reading for this title given to

various

> Samurai during the Sengoku: 治�"少輔
> I'm pretty sure it is 'Jibu Shouyuu', but I'd like to be sure. and

if

> anyone could give me specifics on what it signifies, that would be
> great, too.
>
> thanks

I've got three Japanese librarians working on it right
now...the best they've come up with is

Yabe Shousuke assuming it's a name. If the first
character's first bunsho was written with a sanzui
instead of only two, it would be Jibu or Jibe, but
it's only two water marks.

Needless to say, it's perplexing them too. Hope that
helps, or at least makes you feel better.

Nate

--- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
wrote:

> It doesn't look like that came out, so take a look
> here at the .jpg:
>
> http://www.samurai-archives.com/NEW.html
>
> Thanks
>
> --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"
> > listowner@s...> wrote:
> > I'm trying to figure out the reading for this
> title given to
> various
> > Samurai during the Sengoku:

治・#34;少輔

> > I'm pretty sure it is 'Jibu Shouyuu', but I'd like
> to be sure. and
> if
> > anyone could give me specifics on what it
> signifies, that would be
> > great, too.
> >
> > thanks
>
>

__________________________________
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Just sent an update, and the computer did something
stupid....yurushite ne...

Anyways, update follows: After typing into a Google
search, one of the librarians found it in connection
with Ishida Mitsunari--was it his title? Anyways, one
of the hits had a yomikata for the first two kanji
(INOBE), so as far as we can figure it's either INOBE
or YABE. The second two, the consensus is SHOUHOU or
SHOUSUKE, with the latter being agreed upon as
probably correct. Maybe it's aan obscure kakikata for
the common ~suke title?? TONY, where are you??

Nate

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> I've got three Japanese librarians working on it
> right
> now...the best they've come up with is
>
> Yabe Shousuke assuming it's a name. If the first
> character's first bunsho was written with a sanzui
> instead of only two, it would be Jibu or Jibe, but
> it's only two water marks.
>
> Needless to say, it's perplexing them too. Hope that
> helps, or at least makes you feel better.
>
> Nate
>
> --- Kitsuno <samurai-listowner@...>
> wrote:
> > It doesn't look like that came out, so take a look
> > here at the .jpg:
> >
> > http://www.samurai-archives.com/NEW.html
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"
> > > > listowner@s...> wrote:
> > > I'm trying to figure out the reading for this
> > title given to
> > various
> > > Samurai during the Sengoku:
> 治・#34;少輔
> > > I'm pretty sure it is 'Jibu Shouyuu', but I'd
> like
> > to be sure. and
> > if
> > > anyone could give me specifics on what it
> > signifies, that would be
> > > great, too.
> > >
> > > thanks
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

Okay, update III: What can I say, the librarian is
making a go of it--she just looked it up in some huge
rekishi dictionary, and the kanji is incorrect--it
should have the first radical in the first character
with 3 water marks (sanzui) instead of the two you
have--that makes it "osamu" and you'd read it "Jibe".

I hope you're less confused than I am...

Nate

--- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:

> Just sent an update, and the computer did something
> stupid....yurushite ne...
>
> Anyways, update follows: After typing into a Google
> search, one of the librarians found it in connection
> with Ishida Mitsunari--was it his title? Anyways,
> one
> of the hits had a yomikata for the first two kanji
> (INOBE), so as far as we can figure it's either
> INOBE
> or YABE. The second two, the consensus is SHOUHOU or
> SHOUSUKE, with the latter being agreed upon as
> probably correct. Maybe it's aan obscure kakikata
> for
> the common ~suke title?? TONY, where are you??
>
> Nate
>
> --- Nate Ledbetter <ltdomer98@...> wrote:
> > I've got three Japanese librarians working on it
> > right
> > now...the best they've come up with is
> >
> > Yabe Shousuke assuming it's a name. If the first
> > character's first bunsho was written with a sanzui
> > instead of only two, it would be Jibu or Jibe, but
> > it's only two water marks.
> >
> > Needless to say, it's perplexing them too. Hope
> that
> > helps, or at least makes you feel better.
> >
> > Nate
> >
> > --- Kitsuno
> <samurai-listowner@...>
> > wrote:
> > > It doesn't look like that came out, so take a
> look
> > > here at the .jpg:
> > >
> > > http://www.samurai-archives.com/NEW.html
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > --- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, "Kitsuno"
> > > > > > listowner@s...> wrote:
> > > > I'm trying to figure out the reading for this
> > > title given to
> > > various
> > > > Samurai during the Sengoku:
> > 治・#34;少輔
> > > > I'm pretty sure it is 'Jibu Shouyuu', but I'd
> > like
> > > to be sure. and
> > > if
> > > > anyone could give me specifics on what it
> > > signifies, that would be
> > > > great, too.
> > > >
> > > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> > Sweepstakes
> > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus

http://www.inv.co.jp/~yoshio/DW/Nihonshi/NihonshiKanshoku.htm

Keep in mind Muromachi ranks and titles originate in the Heian/Kamakura
courts for the most part,
not sure how to translate it but the above should help you...
-t

For some reason it lost that second mark on the upper left when I
created it, and I didn't notice -- but anyway, I found an excellent
Japanese website that explains all of the rankings, puts them in
hierarchy, and also has the readings for all of them. That rank
is 'Jibu no Shou' (confirmed against a Japanese web search -- for
some reason, the last Kanji is 'silent' or something --not sure what
is going on there). That page even breaks down the '~no kami'
hierarchy. Apparently some provinces were more prestigious than
others to have as a title, I guess.

Here is the site, it is a heck of a find:
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Suzuran/7123/kansyoku.html

Also, www.goo.ne.jp is a great resource. Be sure to check that out,
too.

--- In samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com, Nate Ledbetter
wrote:

> Okay, update III: What can I say, the librarian is
> making a go of it--she just looked it up in some huge
> rekishi dictionary, and the kanji is incorrect--it
> should have the first radical in the first character
> with 3 water marks (sanzui) instead of the two you
> have--that makes it "osamu" and you'd read it "Jibe".
>
> I hope you're less confused than I am...
>
> Nate
>
> --- Nate Ledbetter wrote:
> > Just sent an update, and the computer did something
> > stupid....yurushite ne...
> >
> > Anyways, update follows: After typing into a Google
> > search, one of the librarians found it in connection
> > with Ishida Mitsunari--was it his title? Anyways,
> > one
> > of the hits had a yomikata for the first two kanji
> > (INOBE), so as far as we can figure it's either
> > INOBE
> > or YABE. The second two, the consensus is SHOUHOU or
> > SHOUSUKE, with the latter being agreed upon as
> > probably correct. Maybe it's aan obscure kakikata
> > for
> > the common ~suke title?? TONY, where are you??
> >
> > Nate