Re: Slicing rifle barrels

I think this is the equivalent of an urban legend more than anything
else, looks cool in movies but may never have happened. There was a
standing reward out in the 70's if anybody could prove that a Hoolywood
style Western shootout ever occured. I don't know if it was ever payed
out. Same type of nonesense. A rifle barrel is much thicker than any
conceivable armor that could be warn plus it often has a nice hardwood
stock to go along with it. What crazy bushi would risk his sword on that
as opposed to chopping something more sensible? If somebody videotapes a
barrel being chopped by a katana, then maybe I will believe. Considering
the number of times I've heard this silliness from people, you'd figure
the WWII museums or books would have at least one or two rifles that had
been chopped in half!

Jim Eckman

I actually grabbed a screenshot of the movie at that precise moment, and the breakage of the rifle does in fact occur behind the action of the rifle, so no barrel was sliced.

James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:I think this is the equivalent of an urban legend more than anything
else, looks cool in movies but may never have happened. There was a
standing reward out in the 70's if anybody could prove that a Hoolywood
style Western shootout ever occured. I don't know if it was ever payed
out. Same type of nonesense. A rifle barrel is much thicker than any
conceivable armor that could be warn plus it often has a nice hardwood
stock to go along with it. What crazy bushi would risk his sword on that
as opposed to chopping something more sensible? If somebody videotapes a
barrel being chopped by a katana, then maybe I will believe. Considering
the number of times I've heard this silliness from people, you'd figure
the WWII museums or books would have at least one or two rifles that had
been chopped in half!

Jim Eckman



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Can anybody remember the details of Uesugi Kenshin cutting an ashigaru (?) down
when he raised a gun to him. Apparently Kenshin not only killed the soldier but
cut his matchlock barrel so well that the sword was named as such. I recall the
sword was an O-Kanehira?? So a gun barrel has been cut in at least one
documented historical event. If the gun was an "udon-ju" this is more easily
accepted than a WW2 machine gun barrel...

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

----- Original Message -----
From: David Heller <olasnah@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels


I actually grabbed a screenshot of the movie at that precise moment, and the
breakage of the rifle does in fact occur behind the action of the rifle, so no
barrel was sliced.

James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:I think this is the equivalent
of an urban legend more than anything
else, looks cool in movies but may never have happened. There was a
standing reward out in the 70's if anybody could prove that a Hoolywood
style Western shootout ever occured. I don't know if it was ever payed
out. Same type of nonesense. A rifle barrel is much thicker than any
conceivable armor that could be warn plus it often has a nice hardwood
stock to go along with it. What crazy bushi would risk his sword on that
as opposed to chopping something more sensible? If somebody videotapes a
barrel being chopped by a katana, then maybe I will believe. Considering
the number of times I've heard this silliness from people, you'd figure
the WWII museums or books would have at least one or two rifles that had
been chopped in half!

Jim Eckman

'' If the gun was an "udon-ju" this is more easily
accepted than a WW2 machine gun barrel..''

I don't have reference about Kenshin's cut but a WWII machine gun barrel
would be weaker if hardly used and then really hot rather then a huge
matchlock. Anyway, even an O-Kanehira (?), I hardly doubt a blade could
cut the matchlock and pass thru the Ashigaru armor or Jingasa. Remember
that legends about the cutting powers of blades are common in any
culture, especially the japanese one. Most likely, the blade cut the
armor, but not the weapon... The only way to solve the matter is ask for
a Tameshigiri
of a O-Kanehira with a Teppo. There is anyone that is able to furnish
both ?

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Barry Thomas [mailto:warlord@...]
Inviato: mercoledì 14 gennaio 2004 11.50
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels

Can anybody remember the details of Uesugi Kenshin cutting an ashigaru
(?) down
when he raised a gun to him. Apparently Kenshin not only killed the
soldier but
cut his matchlock barrel so well that the sword was named as such. I
recall the
sword was an O-Kanehira?? So a gun barrel has been cut in at least one
documented historical event. If the gun was an "udon-ju" this is more
easily
accepted than a WW2 machine gun barrel...

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

----- Original Message -----
From: David Heller <olasnah@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels


I actually grabbed a screenshot of the movie at that precise moment, and
the
breakage of the rifle does in fact occur behind the action of the rifle,
so no
barrel was sliced.

James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:I think this is the
equivalent
of an urban legend more than anything
else, looks cool in movies but may never have happened. There was a
standing reward out in the 70's if anybody could prove that a Hoolywood
style Western shootout ever occured. I don't know if it was ever payed
out. Same type of nonesense. A rifle barrel is much thicker than any
conceivable armor that could be warn plus it often has a nice hardwood
stock to go along with it. What crazy bushi would risk his sword on that
as opposed to chopping something more sensible? If somebody videotapes a
barrel being chopped by a katana, then maybe I will believe. Considering
the number of times I've heard this silliness from people, you'd figure
the WWII museums or books would have at least one or two rifles that had
been chopped in half!

Jim Eckman





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By the way O-Kanehira is the name of one of the two best ToKen (together
with Dojigiri), not (usually) referred to a swordsmith's name, neither
if referred to the Kanehira of the ''Sampira'' (Kanehira,Sukehira and
Takahira). O-Kanehira at the times of Kenshin most likely was in possess
of the Ikeda family, accordingly to their records.


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Carlo Tacchini [mailto:TSUBAME1@...]
Inviato: mercoledì 14 gennaio 2004 19.08
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: R: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels


'' If the gun was an "udon-ju" this is more easily
accepted than a WW2 machine gun barrel..''

I don't have reference about Kenshin's cut but a WWII machine gun barrel
would be weaker if hardly used and then really hot rather then a huge
matchlock. Anyway, even an O-Kanehira (?), I hardly doubt a blade could
cut the matchlock and pass thru the Ashigaru armor or Jingasa. Remember
that legends about the cutting powers of blades are common in any
culture, especially the japanese one. Most likely, the blade cut the
armor, but not the weapon... The only way to solve the matter is ask for
a Tameshigiri
of a O-Kanehira with a Teppo. There is anyone that is able to furnish
both ?

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Barry Thomas [mailto:warlord@...]
Inviato: mercoledì 14 gennaio 2004 11.50
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels

Can anybody remember the details of Uesugi Kenshin cutting an ashigaru
(?) down
when he raised a gun to him. Apparently Kenshin not only killed the
soldier but
cut his matchlock barrel so well that the sword was named as such. I
recall the
sword was an O-Kanehira?? So a gun barrel has been cut in at least one
documented historical event. If the gun was an "udon-ju" this is more
easily
accepted than a WW2 machine gun barrel...

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

----- Original Message -----
From: David Heller <olasnah@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels


I actually grabbed a screenshot of the movie at that precise moment, and
the
breakage of the rifle does in fact occur behind the action of the rifle,
so no
barrel was sliced.

James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:I think this is the
equivalent
of an urban legend more than anything
else, looks cool in movies but may never have happened. There was a
standing reward out in the 70's if anybody could prove that a Hoolywood
style Western shootout ever occured. I don't know if it was ever payed
out. Same type of nonesense. A rifle barrel is much thicker than any
conceivable armor that could be warn plus it often has a nice hardwood
stock to go along with it. What crazy bushi would risk his sword on that
as opposed to chopping something more sensible? If somebody videotapes a
barrel being chopped by a katana, then maybe I will believe. Considering
the number of times I've heard this silliness from people, you'd figure
the WWII museums or books would have at least one or two rifles that had
been chopped in half!

Jim Eckman





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See here for the Kenshin's preferred sword, made by Niji Kunitoshi:

http://www.sho-shin.com/rai2.htm

scroll down, is the 3rd of the page.

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Barry Thomas [mailto:warlord@...]
Inviato: mercoledì 14 gennaio 2004 11.50
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels

Can anybody remember the details of Uesugi Kenshin cutting an ashigaru
(?) down
when he raised a gun to him. Apparently Kenshin not only killed the
soldier but
cut his matchlock barrel so well that the sword was named as such. I
recall the
sword was an O-Kanehira?? So a gun barrel has been cut in at least one
documented historical event. If the gun was an "udon-ju" this is more
easily
accepted than a WW2 machine gun barrel...

Barry Thomas
(Melbourne, Australia)

----- Original Message -----
From: David Heller <olasnah@...>
To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels


I actually grabbed a screenshot of the movie at that precise moment, and
the
breakage of the rifle does in fact occur behind the action of the rifle,
so no
barrel was sliced.

James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:I think this is the
equivalent
of an urban legend more than anything
else, looks cool in movies but may never have happened. There was a
standing reward out in the 70's if anybody could prove that a Hoolywood
style Western shootout ever occured. I don't know if it was ever payed
out. Same type of nonesense. A rifle barrel is much thicker than any
conceivable armor that could be warn plus it often has a nice hardwood
stock to go along with it. What crazy bushi would risk his sword on that
as opposed to chopping something more sensible? If somebody videotapes a
barrel being chopped by a katana, then maybe I will believe. Considering
the number of times I've heard this silliness from people, you'd figure
the WWII museums or books would have at least one or two rifles that had
been chopped in half!

Jim Eckman





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Barry et al-
You know I have a number of books focused on famous generals and their
swords. I tend to focus my studies on the Historical aspects of
Nihonto. I have heard some tall tales but never this one. I have a long
to-do list but will try to look into it. If you do find a reference I
should be very interested to hear it.
-t

Tom, Carlo,
Thanks for your comments. With 40 years of reading under my belt heaven knows
where I read that snippet, but it IS stuck in my memory. Often I find it better
to comment while something is current, rather than wait the x months it takes
for me to find it in my archives and give the reference long after the thread is
as cold as rigor mortis!! I could have read it in the English To-ken Society's
"Programme", but I will keep an eye out for it as I trawl my books and journals.

Just before sending this I did a google search using "uesugi kenshin" thinking I
might find the gun-slicing story - but, alas - I found instead some 1,530 hits
and gave up almost before I'd started. However, this might be interesting
staright off for those with a particular interest in kenshin:

http://www.nbz.or.jp/eng/uesugibio.htm

Best regards,
Barry Thomas.

Carlo wrote:

> O-Kanehira at the times of Kenshin most likely was
> in possess of the Ikeda family, accordingly to their records.

Tom Helm wrote:

> Barry et al-
> You know I have a number of books focused on famous generals and their
> swords. I tend to focus my studies on the Historical aspects of
> Nihonto. I have heard some tall tales but never this one. I have a long
> to-do list but will try to look into it. If you do find a reference I
> should be very interested to hear it.
> -t

I would not hurt you in any manner.
Even the story of the Bren barrel that I remember most likely was read
by me in something like a Reader's Digest article about the taking of
Singapore or Yamashita's conquest of Malaya, so it is far than
historically accurate.
You surely know about Tameshigiri reporting an unbelievable number of
bodies cut thru by a certain blade. Think that if Kenshin had a blade
able to cut a Teppo, most likely Shingen's fan would be cut in their
famous fight, changing Japan's history, hehehe...

----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Barry Thomas [mailto:warlord@...]
Inviato: sabato 17 gennaio 2004 12.46
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: Re: [samuraihistory] Re: Slicing rifle barrels

Tom, Carlo,
Thanks for your comments. With 40 years of reading under my belt heaven
knows
where I read that snippet, but it IS stuck in my memory. Often I find
it better
to comment while something is current, rather than wait the x months it
takes
for me to find it in my archives and give the reference long after the
thread is
as cold as rigor mortis!! I could have read it in the English To-ken
Society's
"Programme", but I will keep an eye out for it as I trawl my books and
journals.

Just before sending this I did a google search using "uesugi kenshin"
thinking I
might find the gun-slicing story - but, alas - I found instead some
1,530 hits
and gave up almost before I'd started. However, this might be
interesting
staright off for those with a particular interest in kenshin:

http://www.nbz.or.jp/eng/uesugibio.htm

Best regards,
Barry Thomas.

Carlo wrote:

> O-Kanehira at the times of Kenshin most likely was
> in possess of the Ikeda family, accordingly to their records.

Tom Helm wrote:

> Barry et al-
> You know I have a number of books focused on famous generals and their
> swords. I tend to focus my studies on the Historical aspects of
> Nihonto. I have heard some tall tales but never this one. I have a

long

> to-do list but will try to look into it. If you do find a reference I
> should be very interested to hear it.
> -t

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I'm curious all about japanese sword, when did it begin, is it still being used? I like bushido, what bushido which uses sword as its main device? Is there anyone mastered in Battojutsu? Can we communicate because I want to know more about it?



Sincerly,

Christin


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

It might be down since the bandwidth regularly gets exceeded. If that is
the case try again in an hour or two.

Matt




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nationalevacaturebank.nl voor actuele vacatures!


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Christin Agustini [mailto:qunyux@...]
Verzonden: zondag 18 januari 2004 5:41
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] sword



I'm curious all about japanese sword, when did it begin, is it still
being used? I like bushido, what bushido which uses sword as its main
device? Is there anyone mastered in Battojutsu? Can we communicate
because I want to know more about it?



Sincerly,

Christin


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The Japanese sword was first usedby Izanagi when he created Japan.From then the sword has become a national symbol.Edy

"Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...> wrote:http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

It might be down since the bandwidth regularly gets exceeded. If that is
the case try again in an hour or two.

Matt




Z Recruiting Services
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F: +31 70 4262111
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E: info@...
Kijk ook op monsterboard.nl, jobbingmall.nl en
nationalevacaturebank.nl voor actuele vacatures!


-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Christin Agustini [mailto:qunyux@...]
Verzonden: zondag 18 januari 2004 5:41
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [samuraihistory] sword



I'm curious all about japanese sword, when did it begin, is it still
being used? I like bushido, what bushido which uses sword as its main
device? Is there anyone mastered in Battojutsu? Can we communicate
because I want to know more about it?



Sincerly,

Christin


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Edy

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According to tradition, wasn't a sword, as quoted in ''The Last
Samurai'', but a lance (Ame-no-Nuboko, the heavenly spear) that created
the islands of Japan... The ''ancestral'' sword so frequently remembered
was found in the tail of an Hydra-like dragon by Takehaya Susanoo, after
having killed it...

Details :
http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/mythology/izanami.asp
or :
http://www.uwec.edu/greider/Chinese.Japan/student.web.pages/Shamans.Myth
s/Vicky/Shinto%20Creation%20Story.htm


-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Edward Alexander [mailto:undergroundrace@...]
Inviato: domenica 18 gennaio 2004 20.00
A: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Oggetto: RE: [samuraihistory] sword

The Japanese sword was first usedby Izanagi when he created Japan.From
then the sword has become a national symbol.Edy

"Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
wrote:http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Edward Alexander wrote:

> The Japanese sword was first usedby Izanagi when he created Japan.From then
> the sword has become a national symbol.Edy

Except Izanagi and Izanami used a *spear* to create Japan.

Tony

Christin-
Welcome to a fascinating world, there are many styles of Japanese
swordsmanship and many degrees of possible immersion into Traditional
Japanese culture. Without knowing you personally it is very hard for
one of us to suggest an art or other entree into that world. You have a
lot to look forward too, many of your questions will have been asked
and answered somewhere online. I can suggest the following sites to
start you out, enjoy.
-t

on swords;
http://www.ncjsc.org/
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm
(lots of good MA links here as well)

on Iaido etc...
http://www.iaido.org
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/
http://www.nckf.org/

Lots more out there and if you want to learn more about the History and
culture look no further than the Samurai Archives.

OOPS!!!!!!!!!Sorry!!!!!!I'd better read those stories again!!!!!!!!Edy

"Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...> wrote:Edward Alexander wrote:

> The Japanese sword was first usedby Izanagi when he created Japan.From then
> the sword has become a national symbol.Edy

Except Izanagi and Izanami used a *spear* to create Japan.

Tony



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Edy

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Hi Christin,

Like you Bushido fascinates me. I'm learning just as
you are and this is what I have discovered thus far.
The early Japanese bushi used the spear(yari) and
bow(yumi) as his main weapons of choice. The sword or
katana developed into his weapon of choice in later
periods. Especially when the military class was
gaining more and more power(Kamakura Shogunate). Note,
this is just a general over view.

Now for a good book on Japanese sword techniques I
recommend "Secrets of the Samurai" by Oscar Ratti and
Adele Westbrook. This is a very good book and it gives
allot of information on Bujutsu as a whole from
samurai to ashigaru to sohei.

Also Miyamoto Musashi's book "The Book of the Five
Rings" is dedicated not just to strategy but to the
way of the sword and Musashi's style of kenjutsu.

I'm currently researching the Shimazu Clan and samurai
of Satsuma in southern Kyushu. They were well known
for their bravery and ferocity in combat. These
samurai were great swordsmen as well and so as part of
my research I would love to discover their fighting
techniques.

Also besides the Katana another sword popular with
samurai was the No-dachi or field sword. This was more
or less a two handed sword and in the hands of a well
trained samurai proved quite deadly.

Hope this helps. Let me know what you find.

Jake
--- Christin Agustini <qunyux@...> wrote:

>
> I'm curious all about japanese sword, when did it
> begin, is it still being used? I like bushido, what
> bushido which uses sword as its main device? Is
> there anyone mastered in Battojutsu? Can we
> communicate because I want to know more about it?
>
>
>
> Sincerly,
>
> Christin
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> Sweepstakes
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>

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