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Re: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

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#2963 [2003-12-23 08:58:03]

RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by mahamayuri

BTW, I commited a little mistype...
Where I had written:
"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana would
shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do is able
to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin and fragile replica
of a katana blade made with wood!!! "

It should be read:

"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana would
shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do is able
to slice an piece of bamboo in public with an very thin and fragile replica
of a katana blade made with wood!!! "

Concerning the comments...
What I experienced with western style sword trainning (fencing) and kendo,
is that there is too much differences (perhaps cultural or just procedures)
to apply concepts that is valid in one into another case.

I doubt very much the people who did such mockering concerning kendo and the
spirit of kenjitsu, had even just six months of aprenticeship...

Regards

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
São Paulo - SP Brazil


Message: 4
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:37:21 +0000
From: golfmandan@...
Subject: Re: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi

Mark Twain would have loved Bill Murray in "The Man Who Knew Too Little",
lol.
>
> "The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best
swordsman
> in
> the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant
antagonist
> who
> has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought
to
> do,
> and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not
to do;
> and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot."
> -Mark Twain
>
> "Sharp-souled Samurai bleed just as well as the dull-souled when cut."
> -Me
>
> >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> >From: Medhal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson [mailto:medhal8@...]
> >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:05 PM
> >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
>
>
> >>Hi Josh and all
>
> >>Once I had a parlance about this issue with some Sensei of Iai-Dô, and
what
> I could understand about it is that yes, of course, the craftsmanship
level
> of the crafter is important.
>
> >>But the most important thing is the soul of a samurai!
> It is inside the soul that there must be the REAL and most important
> sharpness!
>
> >>And I was able to saw even an practical demonstration of that.
>
> >>At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana would
> shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do is able
> to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin and fragile
replica
> of a katana blade made with wood!!!
>
> >>Remember also that Miyamoto Musashi was able to kill more than 200
people
> alone with only his Bokuto-no-ken (a wood-made katana just like the
initial
> sword of Chrono at the old Sness RPG called Chrono Thrigger by Square
> Software, the same of the nowaddays Final Fantasy X)
>
>
> >>So, I guess much that nowaddays lads gets as "just symbolic" information
on
> the classical texts, may have an more literal meaning than much people
even
> suspect...
>
> >>Good Festivities to ya all
> Akemashite Omedetou
>
> >>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> São Paulo - SP
>
>

[Next #2964]

#2964 [2003-12-23 09:18:53]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by keiman0

We see you saw the Samurai Warriors special on History Channel running this
month on ComcastOnDemand/Cable Faves. What did you think of it? We felt it
to be very informative and especially enjoyed the segment on sword forging.
Some katanas having 1 million layers of metals!! Onegai let us know what you
thought of it!-Keiman and Kei.


>From: Me�al Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson <medhal8@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:58:03 -0200
>
>BTW, I commited a little mistype...
>Where I had written:
>"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana would
>shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do is able
>to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin and fragile replica
>of a katana blade made with wood!!! "
>
>It should be read:
>
>"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana would
>shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do is able
>to slice an piece of bamboo in public with an very thin and fragile replica
>of a katana blade made with wood!!! "
>
>Concerning the comments...
>What I experienced with western style sword trainning (fencing) and kendo,
>is that there is too much differences (perhaps cultural or just procedures)
>to apply concepts that is valid in one into another case.
>
>I doubt very much the people who did such mockering concerning kendo and
>the
>spirit of kenjitsu, had even just six months of aprenticeship...
>
>Regards
>
>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
>S�o Paulo - SP Brazil
>
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:37:21 +0000
> From: golfmandan@...
>Subject: Re: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
>
>Mark Twain would have loved Bill Murray in "The Man Who Knew Too Little",
>lol.
> >
> > "The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best
>swordsman
> > in
> > the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant
>antagonist
> > who
> > has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he
>ought
>to
> > do,
> > and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not
>to do;
> > and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot."
> > -Mark Twain
> >
> > "Sharp-souled Samurai bleed just as well as the dull-souled when cut."
> > -Me
> >
> > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Medhal Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson [mailto:medhal8@...]
> > >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:05 PM
> > >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
> >
> >
> > >>Hi Josh and all
> >
> > >>Once I had a parlance about this issue with some Sensei of Iai-D�, and
>what
> > I could understand about it is that yes, of course, the craftsmanship
>level
> > of the crafter is important.
> >
> > >>But the most important thing is the soul of a samurai!
> > It is inside the soul that there must be the REAL and most important
> > sharpness!
> >
> > >>And I was able to saw even an practical demonstration of that.
> >
> > >>At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
>would
> > shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do is
>able
> > to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin and fragile
>replica
> > of a katana blade made with wood!!!
> >
> > >>Remember also that Miyamoto Musashi was able to kill more than 200
>people
> > alone with only his Bokuto-no-ken (a wood-made katana just like the
>initial
> > sword of Chrono at the old Sness RPG called Chrono Thrigger by Square
> > Software, the same of the nowaddays Final Fantasy X)
> >
> >
> > >>So, I guess much that nowaddays lads gets as "just symbolic"
>information
>on
> > the classical texts, may have an more literal meaning than much people
>even
> > suspect...
> >
> > >>Good Festivities to ya all
> > Akemashite Omedetou
> >
> > >>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> > S�o Paulo - SP
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx

[Previous #2963] [Next #2965]

#2965 [2003-12-23 10:57:48]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by matthewhoyle2000

1 million layers ?? That is (very) unlikely, since the tamahagane would
have had to be folded 20 or 21 times depending how you count. The point
being that everytime the steel is folded you are adding carbon (and
losing impurities), making it tougher / harder and thus more difficult
to fold each time, and making the swords cutting edge eventually more
brittle. (the inner core of a sword is not folded as often as the
outside 'skin' for this reason - keeping it simple).

I believe you will find that the average no. Of times the outer steel is
folded will range from 12 - 16. Indicating just over 65.000 layers of
steel when folded 16 times..........

- Matt



Z Recruiting Services
“Zurich Toren” Muzenstraat 89
2511 WB Den Haag
T: +31 70 4262273
F: +31 70 4262111
W: zrecruiting.com
E: info@...
Kijk ook op monsterboard.nl, jobbingmall.nl en
nationalevacaturebank.nl voor actuele vacatures!



-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Jack McElwee [mailto:KeimanZero@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2003 18:19
Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?


We see you saw the Samurai Warriors special on History Channel running
this
month on ComcastOnDemand/Cable Faves. What did you think of it? We felt
it
to be very informative and especially enjoyed the segment on sword
forging.
Some katanas having 1 million layers of metals!! Onegai let us know what
you
thought of it!-Keiman and Kei.


>From: Meðal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson <medhal8@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:58:03 -0200
>
>BTW, I commited a little mistype...
>Where I had written:
>"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
>would shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of
>Iai-do is able to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin
>and fragile replica of a katana blade made with wood!!! "
>
>It should be read:
>
>"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
>would shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of
>Iai-do is able to slice an piece of bamboo in public with an very thin
>and fragile replica of a katana blade made with wood!!! "
>
>Concerning the comments...
>What I experienced with western style sword trainning (fencing) and
>kendo, is that there is too much differences (perhaps cultural or just
>procedures) to apply concepts that is valid in one into another case.
>
>I doubt very much the people who did such mockering concerning kendo
>and
>the
>spirit of kenjitsu, had even just six months of aprenticeship...
>
>Regards
>
>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
>São Paulo - SP Brazil
>
>
>Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:37:21 +0000
> From: golfmandan@...
>Subject: Re: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
>
>Mark Twain would have loved Bill Murray in "The Man Who Knew Too
>Little", lol.
> >
> > "The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second
> > best
>swordsman
> > in
> > the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant
>antagonist
> > who
> > has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he
>ought
>to
> > do,
> > and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought

> > not
>to do;
> > and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot." -Mark

> > Twain
> >
> > "Sharp-souled Samurai bleed just as well as the dull-souled when
> > cut." -Me
> >
> > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Medhal Mikit Stór-ljon Oddhinsson [mailto:medhal8@...]
> > >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:05 PM
> > >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
> >
> >
> > >>Hi Josh and all
> >
> > >>Once I had a parlance about this issue with some Sensei of Iai-Dô,

> > >>and
>what
> > I could understand about it is that yes, of course, the
> > craftsmanship
>level
> > of the crafter is important.
> >
> > >>But the most important thing is the soul of a samurai!
> > It is inside the soul that there must be the REAL and most important

> > sharpness!
> >
> > >>And I was able to saw even an practical demonstration of that.
> >
> > >>At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
>would
> > shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do
> > is
>able
> > to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin and fragile
>replica
> > of a katana blade made with wood!!!
> >
> > >>Remember also that Miyamoto Musashi was able to kill more than 200
>people
> > alone with only his Bokuto-no-ken (a wood-made katana just like the
>initial
> > sword of Chrono at the old Sness RPG called Chrono Thrigger by
> > Square Software, the same of the nowaddays Final Fantasy X)
> >
> >
> > >>So, I guess much that nowaddays lads gets as "just symbolic"
>information
>on
> > the classical texts, may have an more literal meaning than much
> > people
>even
> > suspect...
> >
> > >>Good Festivities to ya all
> > Akemashite Omedetou
> >
> > >>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> > São Paulo - SP
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House &
Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx


---
Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
---

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To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Previous #2964] [Next #2966]

#2966 [2003-12-23 12:16:29]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by keiman0

Hey we didn't say it!! It was on the show! Watch it if ya don't believe
us!!-K&K


>From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
>Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:57:48 +0100
>
>1 million layers ?? That is (very) unlikely, since the tamahagane would
>have had to be folded 20 or 21 times depending how you count. The point
>being that everytime the steel is folded you are adding carbon (and
>losing impurities), making it tougher / harder and thus more difficult
>to fold each time, and making the swords cutting edge eventually more
>brittle. (the inner core of a sword is not folded as often as the
>outside 'skin' for this reason - keeping it simple).
>
>I believe you will find that the average no. Of times the outer steel is
>folded will range from 12 - 16. Indicating just over 65.000 layers of
>steel when folded 16 times..........
>
>- Matt
>
>
>
> Z Recruiting Services
> �Zurich Toren� Muzenstraat 89
> 2511 WB Den Haag
> T: +31 70 4262273
> F: +31 70 4262111
> W: zrecruiting.com
> E: info@...
> Kijk ook op monsterboard.nl, jobbingmall.nl en
> nationalevacaturebank.nl voor actuele vacatures!
>
>
>
>-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>Van: Jack McElwee [mailto:KeimanZero@...]
>Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2003 18:19
>Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
>Onderwerp: RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
>
>
>We see you saw the Samurai Warriors special on History Channel running
>this
>month on ComcastOnDemand/Cable Faves. What did you think of it? We felt
>it
>to be very informative and especially enjoyed the segment on sword
>forging.
>Some katanas having 1 million layers of metals!! Onegai let us know what
>you
>thought of it!-Keiman and Kei.
>
>
> >From: Me�al Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson <medhal8@...>
> >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
> >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:58:03 -0200
> >
> >BTW, I commited a little mistype...
> >Where I had written:
> >"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
> >would shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of
> >Iai-do is able to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin
> >and fragile replica of a katana blade made with wood!!! "
> >
> >It should be read:
> >
> >"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
> >would shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of
> >Iai-do is able to slice an piece of bamboo in public with an very thin
> >and fragile replica of a katana blade made with wood!!! "
> >
> >Concerning the comments...
> >What I experienced with western style sword trainning (fencing) and
> >kendo, is that there is too much differences (perhaps cultural or just
> >procedures) to apply concepts that is valid in one into another case.
> >
> >I doubt very much the people who did such mockering concerning kendo
> >and
> >the
> >spirit of kenjitsu, had even just six months of aprenticeship...
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> >S�o Paulo - SP Brazil
> >
> >
> >Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:37:21 +0000
> > From: golfmandan@...
> >Subject: Re: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
> >
> >Mark Twain would have loved Bill Murray in "The Man Who Knew Too
> >Little", lol.
> > >
> > > "The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second
> > > best
> >swordsman
> > > in
> > > the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant
> >antagonist
> > > who
> > > has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he
> >ought
> >to
> > > do,
> > > and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought
>
> > > not
> >to do;
> > > and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot." -Mark
>
> > > Twain
> > >
> > > "Sharp-souled Samurai bleed just as well as the dull-souled when
> > > cut." -Me
> > >
> > > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Medhal Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson [mailto:medhal8@...]
> > > >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:05 PM
> > > >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: Sharpness in soul or in the steel? was: Re: Hi
> > >
> > >
> > > >>Hi Josh and all
> > >
> > > >>Once I had a parlance about this issue with some Sensei of Iai-D�,
>
> > > >>and
> >what
> > > I could understand about it is that yes, of course, the
> > > craftsmanship
> >level
> > > of the crafter is important.
> > >
> > > >>But the most important thing is the soul of a samurai!
> > > It is inside the soul that there must be the REAL and most important
>
> > > sharpness!
> > >
> > > >>And I was able to saw even an practical demonstration of that.
> > >
> > > >>At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true traditional Katana
> >would
> > > shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however an master of Iai-do
> > > is
> >able
> > > to slice an piece of iai-do in public with an very thin and fragile
> >replica
> > > of a katana blade made with wood!!!
> > >
> > > >>Remember also that Miyamoto Musashi was able to kill more than 200
> >people
> > > alone with only his Bokuto-no-ken (a wood-made katana just like the
> >initial
> > > sword of Chrono at the old Sness RPG called Chrono Thrigger by
> > > Square Software, the same of the nowaddays Final Fantasy X)
> > >
> > >
> > > >>So, I guess much that nowaddays lads gets as "just symbolic"
> >information
> >on
> > > the classical texts, may have an more literal meaning than much
> > > people
> >even
> > > suspect...
> > >
> > > >>Good Festivities to ya all
> > > Akemashite Omedetou
> > >
> > > >>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> > > S�o Paulo - SP
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House &
>Home.
>http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
>
>
>---
>Samurai Archives: http://www.samurai-archives.com
>Samurai Archives store: http://www.cafeshops.com/samuraiarchives
>---
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/samuraihistory/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>samuraihistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx

[Previous #2965] [Next #2968]

#2968 [2003-12-23 14:38:36]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by ltdomer98

I haven't seen the show, but several on this site who
have and know what they are talking about said it
wasn't the greatest--highly suspect information. The
2-hour show was much better, and had our own Tony
Bryant as a source.

Nate

--- Jack McElwee <KeimanZero@...> wrote:
> Hey we didn't say it!! It was on the show! Watch it
> if ya don't believe
> us!!-K&K
>
>
> >From: "Matthew E. Hoyle" <matthewhoyle@...>
> >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul
> or in the steel?
> >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 19:57:48 +0100
> >
> >1 million layers ?? That is (very) unlikely, since
> the tamahagane would
> >have had to be folded 20 or 21 times depending how
> you count. The point
> >being that everytime the steel is folded you are
> adding carbon (and
> >losing impurities), making it tougher / harder and
> thus more difficult
> >to fold each time, and making the swords cutting
> edge eventually more
> >brittle. (the inner core of a sword is not folded
> as often as the
> >outside 'skin' for this reason - keeping it
> simple).
> >
> >I believe you will find that the average no. Of
> times the outer steel is
> >folded will range from 12 - 16. Indicating just
> over 65.000 layers of
> >steel when folded 16 times..........
> >
> >- Matt
> >
> >
> >
> > Z Recruiting Services
> > �Zurich Toren� Muzenstraat 89
> > 2511 WB Den Haag
> > T: +31 70 4262273
> > F: +31 70 4262111
> > W: zrecruiting.com
> > E: info@...
> > Kijk ook op monsterboard.nl, jobbingmall.nl en
> > nationalevacaturebank.nl voor actuele
> vacatures!
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> >Van: Jack McElwee [mailto:KeimanZero@...]
> >Verzonden: dinsdag 23 december 2003 18:19
> >Aan: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> >Onderwerp: RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in
> soul or in the steel?
> >
> >
> >We see you saw the Samurai Warriors special on
> History Channel running
> >this
> >month on ComcastOnDemand/Cable Faves. What did you
> think of it? We felt
> >it
> >to be very informative and especially enjoyed the
> segment on sword
> >forging.
> >Some katanas having 1 million layers of metals!!
> Onegai let us know what
> >you
> >thought of it!-Keiman and Kei.
> >
> >
> > >From: Me�al Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson
> <medhal8@...>
> > >Reply-To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: <samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com>
> > >Subject: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul
> or in the steel?
> > >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:58:03 -0200
> > >
> > >BTW, I commited a little mistype...
> > >Where I had written:
> > >"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true
> traditional Katana
> > >would shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo,
> however an master of
> > >Iai-do is able to slice an piece of iai-do in
> public with an very thin
> > >and fragile replica of a katana blade made with
> wood!!! "
> > >
> > >It should be read:
> > >
> > >"At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a true
> traditional Katana
> > >would shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo,
> however an master of
> > >Iai-do is able to slice an piece of bamboo in
> public with an very thin
> > >and fragile replica of a katana blade made with
> wood!!! "
> > >
> > >Concerning the comments...
> > >What I experienced with western style sword
> trainning (fencing) and
> > >kendo, is that there is too much differences
> (perhaps cultural or just
> > >procedures) to apply concepts that is valid in
> one into another case.
> > >
> > >I doubt very much the people who did such
> mockering concerning kendo
> > >and
> > >the
> > >spirit of kenjitsu, had even just six months of
> aprenticeship...
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >
> > >Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> > >S�o Paulo - SP Brazil
> > >
> > >
> > >Message: 4
> > > Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 06:37:21 +0000
> > > From: golfmandan@...
> > >Subject: Re: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the
> steel? was: Re: Hi
> > >
> > >Mark Twain would have loved Bill Murray in "The
> Man Who Knew Too
> > >Little", lol.
> > > >
> > > > "The best swordsman in the world doesn't need
> to fear the second
> > > > best
> > >swordsman
> > > > in
> > > > the world; no, the person for him to be afraid
> of is some ignorant
> > >antagonist
> > > > who
> > > > has never had a sword in his hand before; he
> doesn't do the thing he
> > >ought
> > >to
> > > > do,
> > > > and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he
> does the thing he ought
> >
> > > > not
> > >to do;
> > > > and often it catches the expert out and ends
> him on the spot." -Mark
> >
> > > > Twain
> > > >
> > > > "Sharp-souled Samurai bleed just as well as
> the dull-souled when
> > > > cut." -Me
> > > >
> > > > >>>>>-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: Medhal Mikit St�r-ljon Oddhinsson
> [mailto:medhal8@...]
> > > > >Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:05 PM
> > > > >To: samuraihistory@yahoogroups.com
> > > > >Subject: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
> was: Re: Hi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >>Hi Josh and all
> > > >
> > > > >>Once I had a parlance about this issue with
> some Sensei of Iai-D�,
> >
> > > > >>and
> > >what
> > > > I could understand about it is that yes, of
> course, the
> > > > craftsmanship
> > >level
> > > > of the crafter is important.
> > > >
> > > > >>But the most important thing is the soul of
> a samurai!
> > > > It is inside the soul that there must be the
> REAL and most important
> >
> > > > sharpness!
> > > >
> > > > >>And I was able to saw even an practical
> demonstration of that.
> > > >
> > > > >>At unskilled hands, even a good blade of a
> true traditional Katana
> > >would
> > > > shatters blowing an slice at a bamboo, however
> an master of Iai-do
> > > > is
> > >able
>
=== message truncated ===


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#2970 [2003-12-23 19:41:05]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by Michael Peters

Once again the "Mystical East" (which is far better than the mundane West )
rears it's head. Bullshit! it is not spirit it is technique. It IS true that
an idiot can break a sword with an incorrect blow. Hell I know people who
can break ball bearings. I regularly trim my yard with the same 1" round
bamboo staff that I use for practicing kendo forms. It works better than
loppers on exposed limbs. But it is TECHNIQUE, not some mystical purity in
my soul.
As for my experience, I am currentlly studying kyuudo in Ibaraki. Again it
is technique. SOME people use it as a means to focus for Zen, it is a means
not a requirement.

MJPeters

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#2971 [2003-12-24 04:34:02]

Re: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by cepooooo

Ok, I follow you, BUT: what about concentration?

What about the capacity to use at 100% the technique you acquired
through training?
Without being extreme and bringing in the "Mystical East," I believe
that it is a matter of fact that in East Asia, people put more
emphasis on "focusing" than people in the West.

We might have opened a huge can of worms here, but it's a very
fascination discussion, so, you all please throw on the table your
ideas and, even better, your experience.

To keep it simple (for now) I believe you need a sharp steel, but a
sharp soul too. And besides that, you need a sharp soul to make sharp
steel (or to trim grass efficiently and elegantly).

Cepo, Honolulu


On Dec 23, 2003, at 5:41 PM, Michael Peters wrote:

>
> Once again the "Mystical East" (which is far better than the mundane
> West )
> rears it's head. Bullshit! it is not spirit it is technique. It IS
> true that
> an idiot can break a sword with an incorrect blow. Hell I know people
> who
> can break ball bearings. I regularly trim my yard with the same 1"
> round
> bamboo staff that I use for practicing kendo forms. It works better
> than
> loppers on exposed limbs. But it is TECHNIQUE, not some mystical
> purity in
> my soul.
>   As for my experience, I am currentlly studying kyuudo in Ibaraki.
> Again it
> is technique. SOME people use it as a means to focus for Zen, it is a
> means
> not a requirement.
>
> MJPeters
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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#2973 [2003-12-24 19:22:56]

Re: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by Michael Peters

>"Ok, I follow you, BUT: what about concentration?
>
>What about the capacity to use at 100% the technique you acquired
>through training?
>Without being extreme and bringing in the "Mystical East," I believe
>that it is a matter of fact that in East Asia, people put more
>emphasis on "focusing" than people in the West."

If that were true, all the stuff coming out of China wouldn't be junk.
I've also seen junk modern reproduction armour made in Japan. That said
there is MORE of a tendency to take pride in your work simply for the sake
of doing your job well than you encounter in the West. There is more respect
for the craftsman. But a TRUE craftsman, whether it's swords, armour,
weaving, cooking, carpentry, even chadou FOCUSES. It is the MIND not the
soul. If you believe Robert Mcpherson or J.D. Hrosilous (sp?) don't focus at
the same level of armourers and swordsmiths in Japan you are sorely
mistaken. Also if you think the average Japanese focuses well you should see
all the idiots trying to ride bicycles while reading e-mail on thier keitai
Perhaps this is because we DO tend to over-intellectualize things in the
West. My poor Japanese HAS forced me to use ishin denshin while studying
Kyuudo, but my focus is the same it has been for years while armouring or
training in different martial art systems.
Side observation. It often seems that the people who believe (key word
believe) in the "Mystical East" are people who would LIKE to believe in
magic but have too much sense yet are too much of the romantic to give up
the idea that there is SOMETHING more so they transfer that desire to a far
distant and strange land. I undestand that hope. I shared it when I was much
younger, but I have travelled too much and seen too much to give it any
credence.

M.J.Peters

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#2976 [2003-12-26 05:05:40]

RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by mahamayuri

Hi Michael

I would not condemn ya for cepticism.
However in Japan (and there is not the only place), the conceptions of
spirituality is very different than in the Western World.

They do not sepparate "material world" from "spiritual world".
All is same to them.

So, to incorporate technique into the mind, heart or inner essence, is a
part of the standard procedures.

In Karate, there is a several of standardized movements called Kata, and
sparring trainning called Kumite, however there is also a meditation to be
performed before do all of this. The effect of it was that, in time of need,
when some thugs attempted to assault me and take my money late at night, it
was just instinctive. I was not thinking in what do do if the thief do this
or that, or in technical therms when fighting for my life. Things just went
naturally before I even knew what was really happening and the thugs got out
of there, and I was no black belt, much less any kind of "super martial arts
master" to do anything in special.
Just an standard trainner as any other student.

So, I know it is very far than what those of ancient called as "sharpness in
soul", but it is a pratical example, and one does not need to believe in
"magick" to perform that. LOL

Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
S�o Paulo - SP Brazil

>
>Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 10:22:56 +0700
> From: "Michael Peters"
>Subject: Re: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?
>
>>"Ok, I follow you, BUT: what about concentration?
>>
>>What about the capacity to use at 100% the technique you acquired
>>through training?
>>Without being extreme and bringing in the "Mystical East," I believe
>>that it is a matter of fact that in East Asia, people put more
>>emphasis on "focusing" than people in the West."
>
> If that were true, all the stuff coming out of China wouldn't be junk.
>I've also seen junk modern reproduction armour made in Japan. That said
>there is MORE of a tendency to take pride in your work simply for the sake
>of doing your job well than you encounter in the West. There is more
respect
>for the craftsman. But a TRUE craftsman, whether it's swords, armour,
>weaving, cooking, carpentry, even chadou FOCUSES. It is the MIND not the
>soul. If you believe Robert Mcpherson or J.D. Hrosilous (sp?) don't focus
at
>the same level of armourers and swordsmiths in Japan you are sorely
>mistaken. Also if you think the average Japanese focuses well you should
see
>all the idiots trying to ride bicycles while reading e-mail on thier keitai
> Perhaps this is because we DO tend to over-intellectualize things in the
>West. My poor Japanese HAS forced me to use ishin denshin while studying
>Kyuudo, but my focus is the same it has been for years while armouring or
>training in different martial art systems.
> Side observation. It often seems that the people who believe (key word
>believe) in the "Mystical East" are people who would LIKE to believe in
>magic but have too much sense yet are too much of the romantic to give up
>the idea that there is SOMETHING more so they transfer that desire to a far
>distant and strange land. I undestand that hope. I shared it when I was
much
>younger, but I have travelled too much and seen too much to give it any
>credence.
>
>M.J.Peters

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#2978 [2003-12-26 20:16:01]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by Michael Peters

Octavio,

You merely prove my point. It is technique. Your technique and training
allowed you to rout the "thugs".
As I've studied various martial arts for over 20 years and unfortunately
needed to use them on occasion, I don't REALLY need an explanation of kata.
:)

Michael
>
>In Karate, there is a several of standardized movements called Kata, and
>sparring trainning called Kumite, however there is also a meditation to be
>performed before do all of this. The effect of it was that, in time of
>need,
>when some thugs attempted to assault me and take my money late at night, it
>was just instinctive. I was not thinking in what do do if the thief do this
>or that, or in technical therms when fighting for my life. Things just went
>naturally before I even knew what was really happening and the thugs got
>out
>of there, and I was no black belt, much less any kind of "super martial
>arts
>master" to do anything in special.
>Just an standard trainner as any other student.
>
>So, I know it is very far than what those of ancient called as "sharpness
>in
>soul", but it is a pratical example, and one does not need to believe in
>"magick" to perform that. LOL
>
>Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
>S�o Paulo - SP Brazil

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#2980 [2003-12-27 06:22:26]

RE: [samuraihistory] RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by Lee Changsub

Kata can be interpreted as simulation actualizing
various scenarios of fighting. Kumite is also designed
to sharpen the real battle skill.
So, both of them are training methods to prepare for
real fight.

I doubt that we can judge the efficacy of either
method by quoting mere street fights although I admit
that there are some in street naturally born to be
good fighters. However, a better judgement can be made
if we consider who possible oppenents are for various
situations.

For example, if someone needs to fight with Tyson, I
would recommend strenuous and rigorous training
combining both Kata and Kumite.





Sincerely,





Changsub Lee



--- Michael Peters <shdwstel@...> wrote:
> Octavio,
>
> You merely prove my point. It is technique. Your
> technique and training
> allowed you to rout the "thugs".
> As I've studied various martial arts for over 20
> years and unfortunately
> needed to use them on occasion, I don't REALLY need
> an explanation of kata.
> :)
>
> Michael
> >
> >In Karate, there is a several of standardized
> movements called Kata, and
> >sparring trainning called Kumite, however there is
> also a meditation to be
> >performed before do all of this. The effect of it
> was that, in time of
> >need,
> >when some thugs attempted to assault me and take my
> money late at night, it
> >was just instinctive. I was not thinking in what do
> do if the thief do this
> >or that, or in technical therms when fighting for
> my life. Things just went
> >naturally before I even knew what was really
> happening and the thugs got
> >out
> >of there, and I was no black belt, much less any
> kind of "super martial
> >arts
> >master" to do anything in special.
> >Just an standard trainner as any other student.
> >
> >So, I know it is very far than what those of
> ancient called as "sharpness
> >in
> >soul", but it is a pratical example, and one does
> not need to believe in
> >"magick" to perform that. LOL
> >
> >Octavio Augusto Okimoto Alves de Carvalho
> >S�o Paulo - SP Brazil
>
>
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#2982 [2003-12-27 19:10:50]

RE: RE: Sharpness in soul or in the steel?

by lost90804

> From: Lee Changsub <knorr31@...>
>
>For example, if someone needs to fight with Tyson, I
>would recommend strenuous and rigorous training
>combining both Kata and Kumite.
>
>
>
I would recommend a .45 automatic if I were feeling sporting, a slam
fire shotgun if I wasn't. No amount of exercise or training will let me
defeat somebody that good with bare hands. I doubt many on this group
would stand much of a chance. He's big, fast and trained, youch! Having
seen how fast a boxer can be, they are not to be taken lightly. Also
they might be sneaky and have studied other martial arts to improve
their boxing.

Jim Eckman

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